244 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

IronWolf1987 wrote...
Except my Character doesn't plan to say "Darn that Morrigan she got away again!" He understand the implications of the choice he made and either he or Alistair are going to do everything they can to stop Morrigan and rescue that child. I look at this way Morrigan wants her baby, if she doesn't need a grey warden just wants one she sleeps with some poor schlub in redcliffe and the ritual goes on without anyone but her knowing, and no one benefits. If she does need a grey warden then all she does is use her witch powers to keep on living tell the next blight and this time just seduces some green warden who doesn't know what she is up to.

Either way, because the game does not let you stop Morrigan once and for all right there Morrigan will get her baby, it's inevitable. So if it's going to happen why not adapt my plans so that the good guys at least get some benefit and not only that perhaps even a chance to track her down, stop her and even maybe rescue the poor child?

Morrigan explains why she needs a Grey Warden, and a specific kind (one that hasn't been tainted too long.) She explains what the ritual does to extend your life, which is provide a vessel which will not destroy the soul of the old god, but will destroy the corruption. That is why she needs a GW father, and some 'poor schmub' in Redcliffe won't do.

The baby is not inevitable. Like I've said before, the baby requires a very specific set of conditions. Archdemons are not easy to get to, Riordan explains that the darkspawn have to dig tunnels and it takes the years, sometimes centuries, to do so, so this archdemon is very likely Morrigan's only opportunity for a very, very long time. 

Okay, let's assume you are right, and Morrigan will have another opportunity. Well, if your PC is dead, it's not on his/her shoulders anyway, and another blight is not exactly likely to happen in the next 30 years, before the taint kills your PC dead anyway. Maybe you can't 'stop her once and for all' but you can delay it and hope that she never gets another perfect storm kind of situation.

[Sialater]

I think Wynne was created to show a "good abomination." That not all spirits are evil. Especially if you're not playing a mage and don't see the Spirit of Valor in the Fade in your Harrowing.

[Recidiva]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

Except my Character doesn't plan to say "Darn that Morrigan she got away again!" He understand the implications of the choice he made and either he or Alistair are going to do everything they can to stop Morrigan and rescue that child. I look at this way Morrigan wants her baby, if she doesn't need a grey warden just wants one she sleeps with some poor schlub in redcliffe and the ritual goes on without anyone but her knowing, and no one benefits. If she does need a grey warden then all she does is use her witch powers to keep on living tell the next blight and this time just seduces some green warden who doesn't know what she is up to.

Either way, because the game does not let you stop Morrigan once and for all right there Morrigan will get her baby, it's inevitable. So if it's going to happen why not adapt my plans so that the good guys at least get some benefit and not only that perhaps even a chance to track her down, stop her and even maybe rescue the poor child?

If Morrigan doesn't want to be found, she won't be found.  She's the one with magical mommy's recipes to be undetected, which is what got your butt out of Korcari wilds.  I accept as game canon that she'll be unfindable. 

It'd be fine as an RP motivation, sure.  It just wouldn't and didn't occur to me that Morrigan could be located if she didn't care to be, as she is a shapeshifter and such.

Seems about as reasonable as me ending the blight by deciding to open up negotiations with the Genlocks and bake them cookies and see if we can't come to some arrangement.

[Sialater]

eschilde wrote...

IronWolf1987 wrote...
Except my Character doesn't plan to say "Darn that Morrigan she got away again!" He understand the implications of the choice he made and either he or Alistair are going to do everything they can to stop Morrigan and rescue that child. I look at this way Morrigan wants her baby, if she doesn't need a grey warden just wants one she sleeps with some poor schlub in redcliffe and the ritual goes on without anyone but her knowing, and no one benefits. If she does need a grey warden then all she does is use her witch powers to keep on living tell the next blight and this time just seduces some green warden who doesn't know what she is up to.

Either way, because the game does not let you stop Morrigan once and for all right there Morrigan will get her baby, it's inevitable. So if it's going to happen why not adapt my plans so that the good guys at least get some benefit and not only that perhaps even a chance to track her down, stop her and even maybe rescue the poor child?

Morrigan explains why she needs a Grey Warden, and a specific kind (one that hasn't been tainted too long.) She explains what the ritual does to extend your life, which is provide a vessel which will not destroy the soul of the old god, but will destroy the corruption. That is why she needs a GW father, and some 'poor schmub' in Redcliffe won't do.

The baby is not inevitable. Like I've said before, the baby requires a very specific set of conditions. Archdemons are not easy to get to, Riordan explains that the darkspawn have to dig tunnels and it takes the years, sometimes centuries, to do so, so this archdemon is very likely Morrigan's only opportunity for a very, very long time. 

Okay, let's assume you are right, and Morrigan will have another opportunity. Well, if your PC is dead, it's not on his/her shoulders anyway, and another blight is not exactly likely to happen in the next 30 years, before the taint kills your PC dead anyway. Maybe you can't 'stop her once and for all' but you can delay it and hope that she never gets another perfect storm kind of situation.

But then aren't you forcing her to body hop until the next Blight comes areound?

[Recidiva]

Jules8445 wrote...

Well.....if we're going to call the child evil because it's imbued with a spirit....then isn't Wynne the same way?  If the child doesn't deserve a chance to exist...why does Wynne deserve to continue to exist?  If you didn't have him kill Wynne...Alistair is just following your past leadership example.  

Might be a little thin...but it is one way to look at it. 

The child wouldn't exist if you didn't allow it.  

And the "child" will never be a child, it'll be Morrigan's vessel.  And that's the "evil" part.

The original point is that if you say you're going to kill Wynne, Alistair will say he won't allow it, but then he'll beat her to death himself.

I would say that abominations are where the demon takes over the personality and there's nothing human remaining. Wynne is aided by a spirit but not overtaken by one.  Different animal entirely.

[eschilde]

Sialater wrote...
But then aren't you forcing her to body hop until the next Blight comes areound?

Newp, that's on her, not on you. You can't stop her from using Flemeth's spells to take over other bodies, that's not in your power to do. You CAN decide to not donate to the demonbaby sperm bank.

[Sialater]

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...
But then aren't you forcing her to body hop until the next Blight comes areound?

Newp, that's on her, not on you. You can't stop her from using Flemeth's spells to take over other bodies, that's not in your power to do. You CAN decide to not donate to the demonbaby sperm bank.

True.  But either way, since you can't kill her, you're still pawning your responsibilities off on another generation.  If you make the baby now, you can at least fix it.

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

But then aren't you forcing her to body hop until the next Blight comes areound?

Nobody's forcing Morrigan to do anything, unfortunately.  She'll keep doing what she does.  I can just stop her or block her when I can.  "Not facilitating her having a baby" seems like a decent blocking move.

If she's got to hang round in human form until the next blight...fine.  Maybe someone else will kill her in the meantime.  

But theoretically both Flemeth and Morrigan are both now immortal with the spells they have, and they are seeking the strongest hosts.  By either getting a darkspawn-blood archdemon baby or just abducting and using up men until they get a girl child.

I don't have to help them.  Any more than I need to set a virulent virus loose in a pediatric ward.

Yes, disease and threats exist.   I don't have to faciliate them and I don't have to aid them.  I'd much rather fight them than think "Well, kids die.  Everyone dies, if I set smallpox loose in this ward, I'm sure I have my reasons."

SCREW THAT.

[Jules8445]

Recidiva wrote...

Jules8445 wrote...

Well.....if we're going to call the child evil because it's imbued with a spirit....then isn't Wynne the same way?  If the child doesn't deserve a chance to exist...why does Wynne deserve to continue to exist?  If you didn't have him kill Wynne...Alistair is just following your past leadership example.  

Might be a little thin...but it is one way to look at it. 

The child wouldn't exist if you didn't allow it.  

And the "child" will never be a child, it'll be Morrigan's vessel.  And that's the "evil" part.

The original point is that if you say you're going to kill Wynne, Alistair will say he won't allow it, but then he'll beat her to death himself.

I would say that abominations are where the demon takes over the personality and there's nothing human remaining. Wynne is aided by a spirit but not overtaken by one.  Different animal entirely.

We can probably argue this in circles as long as people want.  I'm pretty sure nobody is going to budge on their individul opinion. This is a fun conversation, but I think you're splitting hairs here.  

She says it will be a child with the spirit of an old god inside of it. Nowhere does it say that the child will never be a child...you're assuming things that haven't been established by cannon. (Unless I missed something, which I'm more than willing to allow as possibility)

Lol, that's sad about Alistair killing Wynne...I'd never make him do that, they really like each other in my game...she even explained to him where babies come from!  (At least we know he goes into things with Morrigan understanding how it's going to work)

Again, unless I missed something big, it doesn't say anywhere that there won't ever be a child there...and on the same note, Flemeth's personality wasn't taken over by her demon...so she's okay like Wynne? 

[eschilde]

Sialater wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...
But then aren't you forcing her to body hop until the next Blight comes areound?

Newp, that's on her, not on you. You can't stop her from using Flemeth's spells to take over other bodies, that's not in your power to do. You CAN decide to not donate to the demonbaby sperm bank.

True.  But either way, since you can't kill her, you're still pawning your responsibilities off on another generation.  If you make the baby now, you can at least fix it.

So then, what's to stop her from making another one next time, if you're assuming it will happen at all?

You can completely avoid the possibility this archdemon will be turned into a baby. That's not pawning it off, at all. If this archdemon is dead, she's not getting its soul back.

She needs a gullible, relatively young Warden who is extremely likely to die at the archdemon. In this case, you and Alistair/Loghain and Riordan are the only ones in a position to kill the archdemon, so your chances are 1/3 of dying. If the Wardens were in the state they were pre-Ostagar, Duncan would have said exactly what he said then: "I want no heroics from either of you." This situation never ever would have happened if the archdemon decided to show up in Orlais first, because there's a lot more Wardens, senior ones who might be close to going to the Deep Roads, willing to take the KB and go out in glory. 

So what's the likelihood of her getting a similar situation again? Not very high. Not to mention, there aren't many old gods left after this one, like what, 3?

[IronWolf1987]

Recidiva wrote...

IronWolf1987 wrote...

Except my Character doesn't plan to say "Darn that Morrigan she got away again!" He understand the implications of the choice he made and either he or Alistair are going to do everything they can to stop Morrigan and rescue that child. I look at this way Morrigan wants her baby, if she doesn't need a grey warden just wants one she sleeps with some poor schlub in redcliffe and the ritual goes on without anyone but her knowing, and no one benefits. If she does need a grey warden then all she does is use her witch powers to keep on living tell the next blight and this time just seduces some green warden who doesn't know what she is up to.

Either way, because the game does not let you stop Morrigan once and for all right there Morrigan will get her baby, it's inevitable. So if it's going to happen why not adapt my plans so that the good guys at least get some benefit and not only that perhaps even a chance to track her down, stop her and even maybe rescue the poor child?

If Morrigan doesn't want to be found, she won't be found.  She's the one with magical mommy's recipes to be undetected, which is what got your butt out of Korcari wilds.  I accept as game canon that she'll be unfindable. 

It'd be fine as an RP motivation, sure.  It just wouldn't and didn't occur to me that Morrigan could be located if she didn't care to be, as she is a shapeshifter and such.

Seems about as reasonable as me ending the blight by deciding to open up negotiations with the Genlocks and bake them cookies and see if we can't come to some arrangement.

Well considering that my Warden has pretty much made a living out of doing the impossible and is a master ranger it seems to me that he'd feel confident in being able to find Morrigan, especially if she is running around with a darkspawn tainted child that he would be able to sense.  Besides Morrigan was great at hiding in the Kokari wilds the place she grew up and lived her whole life, how adept is she going to be in a completely foreign land?

As far as the child being inevitable. It most certainly is in my warden's and my opinion. Yes she explains why she needs a newly tainted warden. Does it make sense? Well how would my warden know, it's not like he is an expert on crazy dark rituals to begin with, for all he knows Morrigan is just lying or speaking half truths which he knows she does. But assuming she is telling the truth and she does need a new warden, where does that leave her? Well it means she needs to wait for a new blight. We know two more are coming, and we know she can live for a very long time. So if it doesn't happen this blight why won't it happen the next one? In fact all giving her more time does is allow her to refine her plans, and potentially grow more powerful, and this time she probably won't make the mistake of actually telling the warden what is going on.

Seems to me that the best time to stop Morrigan is now when she is still new at this and hasn't had the luxury of centuries to refine her plan, power and magic.

[Sialater]

Jules8445 wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Jules8445 wrote...

Well.....if we're going to call the child evil because it's imbued with a spirit....then isn't Wynne the same way?  If the child doesn't deserve a chance to exist...why does Wynne deserve to continue to exist?  If you didn't have him kill Wynne...Alistair is just following your past leadership example.  

Might be a little thin...but it is one way to look at it. 

The child wouldn't exist if you didn't allow it.  

And the "child" will never be a child, it'll be Morrigan's vessel.  And that's the "evil" part.

The original point is that if you say you're going to kill Wynne, Alistair will say he won't allow it, but then he'll beat her to death himself.

I would say that abominations are where the demon takes over the personality and there's nothing human remaining. Wynne is aided by a spirit but not overtaken by one.  Different animal entirely.

We can probably argue this in circles as long as people want.  I'm pretty sure nobody is going to budge on their individul opinion. This is a fun conversation, but I think you're splitting hairs here.  

She says it will be a child with the spirit of an old god inside of it. Nowhere does it say that the child will never be a child...you're assuming things that haven't been established by cannon. (Unless I missed something, which I'm more than willing to allow as possibility)

Lol, that's sad about Alistair killing Wynne...I'd never make him do that, they really like each other in my game...she even explained to him where babies come from!  (At least we know he goes into things with Morrigan understanding how it's going to work)

Again, unless I missed something big, it doesn't say anywhere that there won't ever be a child there...and on the same note, Flemeth's personality wasn't taken over by her demon...so she's okay like Wynne? 

Well, Al is forced by game mechanics to kill Wynne if you opt to.  He's forced to stay with you through Landsmeet, whether he hates everything you do or not.  I cannot fathom how he's forced to do the Ritual, why game mechanics would make him.  Especially if you're telling him everything and not persuading him.  (But then I've never tried it with unhardened Al.)  He can refuse Loghain, but he can't refuse Morrigan?  That makes no sense.

Flemeth is evil because she concieves children solely for the purpose of consuming them.  We do not know that Morrigan will do the same thing.  We'd be condemning her for a crime she hasn't committed yet.

[Recidiva]

Jules8445 wrote...

We can probably argue this in circles as long as people want.  I'm pretty sure nobody is going to budge on their individul opinion. This is a fun conversation, but I think you're splitting hairs here.  

She says it will be a child with the spirit of an old god inside of it. Nowhere does it say that the child will never be a child...you're assuming things that haven't been established by cannon. (Unless I missed something, which I'm more than willing to allow as possibility)

Lol, that's sad about Alistair killing Wynne...I'd never make him do that, they really like each other in my game...she even explained to him where babies come from!  (At least we know he goes into things with Morrigan understanding how it's going to work)

Again, unless I missed something big, it doesn't say anywhere that there won't ever be a child there...and on the same note, Flemeth's personality wasn't taken over by her demon...so she's okay like Wynne? 

Absolutely, this is just my opinion about a game.  I think Morrigan is a liar and she's got blood vials all over her camp and she's mad when I don't drown kittens.  I don't have to trust her, she's entirely untrustworthy.  I don't have to think she's telling me any more of the truth than Loghain or the sloth demon are compelled to tell me truth.  I have to rely on my own judgment based on what the game gives me, and that's my judgment. 

Yes, I had an entirely evil playthrough where I sided with all the bad guys, did every possible evil thing and bought Alistair's approval with all the gifts left over from party members that otherwise didn't survive.  He finished the game at 100 Adore (never could bring myself to sleep with him, eeew, but accepted his rose and his love, never hardened him, wouldn't do his personal quest.)

I did kill Connor myself, I did have Alistair kill Wynne, and made it through the game wtih Alistair, Dog, Oghren and Sten.  Killed or failed to rescue everyone else.   Sided with Branka, Werewolves and Templars.

Alistair sacrificed himself at the end for me.  Which I consider in my own personal way to think is the most evil thing I could do in the game. 

None of my "evil" characters ever want to take Morrigan's deal because that's just too big of a "hand someone else a lot of power and wait for it to bite you in the ass" thing.  Too risky.

None of my "good" characters ever want to take Morrigan's deal because they always are set on self sacrifice.

The only character that managed to take the deal was "I want this achievement" character.  And it wasn't really justified in any roleplay sense.  I just wanted to do it to see what happened.  EEEW.

So it's possible to be the most evil I can conceive and still have Alistair's complete adoration.  *shudder*

[Jules8445]

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...
But then aren't you forcing her to body hop until the next Blight comes areound?

Newp, that's on her, not on you. You can't stop her from using Flemeth's spells to take over other bodies, that's not in your power to do. You CAN decide to not donate to the demonbaby sperm bank.

True.  But either way, since you can't kill her, you're still pawning your responsibilities off on another generation.  If you make the baby now, you can at least fix it.

So then, what's to stop her from making another one next time, if you're assuming it will happen at all?

You can completely avoid the possibility this archdemon will be turned into a baby. That's not pawning it off, at all. If this archdemon is dead, she's not getting its soul back.

She needs a gullible, relatively young Warden who is extremely likely to die at the archdemon. In this case, you and Alistair/Loghain and Riordan are the only ones in a position to kill the archdemon, so your chances are 1/3 of dying. If the Wardens were in the state they were pre-Ostagar, Duncan would have said exactly what he said then: "I want no heroics from either of you." This situation never ever would have happened if the archdemon decided to show up in Orlais first, because there's a lot more Wardens, senior ones who might be close to going to the Deep Roads, willing to take the KB and go out in glory. 

So what's the likelihood of her getting a similar situation again? Not very high. Not to mention, there aren't many old gods left after this one, like what, 3?

This is such a great point!  At least the part about Duncan telling them that he wants to heroics.  Riordan makes that point too.  I get the feeling this is a pretty unique situation for Morrigan.  That's why she gets so violently pissed if you decline her offer.  

I think you pretty much demolish her chances if you say no...but again, I don't have a huge problem with the little demon Alistair baby.  (I can't even concieve letting Loghain live...I know that's bad, but maybe I'll mature a bit on subsequent play throughs) 

[IronWolf1987]

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...
But then aren't you forcing her to body hop until the next Blight comes areound?

Newp, that's on her, not on you. You can't stop her from using Flemeth's spells to take over other bodies, that's not in your power to do. You CAN decide to not donate to the demonbaby sperm bank.

True.  But either way, since you can't kill her, you're still pawning your responsibilities off on another generation.  If you make the baby now, you can at least fix it.

So then, what's to stop her from making another one next time, if you're assuming it will happen at all?

You can completely avoid the possibility this archdemon will be turned into a baby. That's not pawning it off, at all. If this archdemon is dead, she's not getting its soul back.

She needs a gullible, relatively young Warden who is extremely likely to die at the archdemon. In this case, you and Alistair/Loghain and Riordan are the only ones in a position to kill the archdemon, so your chances are 1/3 of dying. If the Wardens were in the state they were pre-Ostagar, Duncan would have said exactly what he said then: "I want no heroics from either of you." This situation never ever would have happened if the archdemon decided to show up in Orlais first, because there's a lot more Wardens, senior ones who might be close to going to the Deep Roads, willing to take the KB and go out in glory. 

So what's the likelihood of her getting a similar situation again? Not very high. Not to mention, there aren't many old gods left after this one, like what, 3?

Now I may be wrong, but I believe is all she needs is an arch demon to die and to have sex with a newly tainted warden. Said warden doesn't have to be the one to make the final blow. Seems to me, all she'd have to do is shapeshift to a nice sneaky form monitor what was going on, learn when the final attack on the Arch Demon was about to go down, and then go seduce the most gullible warden. See that's the problem with Morrigan her having more time only benefits her thanks to the fact she is practically immortal.

[eschilde]

Ok, I admit I'm basing my assumptions off the fact that I think Morrigan is telling the truth about the ritual (though not all of it, just how it works.) If you don't believe that at all, fine.



But there's no way she could just use some dude in Redcliffe, otherwise she would have. Come on. You think Morrigan's been following you around the whole game for fun and kicks? That she's doing this entirely the hard way because it's more fun? That she just wants to use you in particular for the ritual, even though she could just do it with any random dude, because you are just that awesome?



It _can't_ happen this blight because you're getting rid of the archdemon, period. The next one, maybe, sure, but how soon is that going to be? And why would she only be able to do it once?

[Sialater]

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...
But then aren't you forcing her to body hop until the next Blight comes areound?

Newp, that's on her, not on you. You can't stop her from using Flemeth's spells to take over other bodies, that's not in your power to do. You CAN decide to not donate to the demonbaby sperm bank.

True.  But either way, since you can't kill her, you're still pawning your responsibilities off on another generation.  If you make the baby now, you can at least fix it.

So then, what's to stop her from making another one next time, if you're assuming it will happen at all?

You can completely avoid the possibility this archdemon will be turned into a baby. That's not pawning it off, at all. If this archdemon is dead, she's not getting its soul back.

She needs a gullible, relatively young Warden who is extremely likely to die at the archdemon. In this case, you and Alistair/Loghain and Riordan are the only ones in a position to kill the archdemon, so your chances are 1/3 of dying. If the Wardens were in the state they were pre-Ostagar, Duncan would have said exactly what he said then: "I want no heroics from either of you." This situation never ever would have happened if the archdemon decided to show up in Orlais first, because there's a lot more Wardens, senior ones who might be close to going to the Deep Roads, willing to take the KB and go out in glory. 

So what's the likelihood of her getting a similar situation again? Not very high. Not to mention, there aren't many old gods left after this one, like what, 3?

2, actually, since this is Blight #5.  I agree this is a perfect storm situation for this.  But not killing her now (which you're not allowed to do) or taking the deal and tracking her down, is putting it off on the next however many generations in the future.

I actually keep discussing this point with my husband and some friends who've played this, about why Ferelden, if the Archdemon is barely sentient.  We keep wondering if there's an overall plan by the demons and what side, if any Flemeth/Morrigan is/are on.

[Recidiva]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

Well considering that my Warden has pretty much made a living out of doing the impossible and is a master ranger it seems to me that he'd feel confident in being able to find Morrigan, especially if she is running around with a darkspawn tainted child that he would be able to sense.  Besides Morrigan was great at hiding in the Kokari wilds the place she grew up and lived her whole life, how adept is she going to be in a completely foreign land?

As far as the child being inevitable. It most certainly is in my warden's and my opinion. Yes she explains why she needs a newly tainted warden. Does it make sense? Well how would my warden know, it's not like he is an expert on crazy dark rituals to begin with, for all he knows Morrigan is just lying or speaking half truths which he knows she does. But assuming she is telling the truth and she does need a new warden, where does that leave her? Well it means she needs to wait for a new blight. We know two more are coming, and we know she can live for a very long time. So if it doesn't happen this blight why won't it happen the next one? In fact all giving her more time does is allow her to refine her plans, and potentially grow more powerful, and this time she probably won't make the mistake of actually telling the warden what is going on.

Seems to me that the best time to stop Morrigan is now when she is still new at this and hasn't had the luxury of centuries to refine her plan, power and magic.

Well, the best time to stop Morrigan is not giving her what she wants and what she worked so hard to achieve.  Considering she's denied this archdemon's soul, she'll have to wait until the next blight.

This motivation certainly hangs together in a pride way.  But remember, pride's a demon.  Not an angel on your shoulder.

Had you been able to stop Morrigan from "vanishing" at the end of the battle, I'd be on your side.  But you didn't.  And the whole epilogue goes by for years without anybody successfully tracking her down.

Wouldn't it be nice to not have to track her down because you didn't help her at all?  I can't save everyone from everything.  But I can make a few educated guesses and do my best.

[eschilde]

Now I may be wrong, but I believe is all she needs is an arch demon to die and to have sex with a newly tainted warden. Said warden doesn't have to be the one to make the final blow. Seems to me, all she'd have to do is shapeshift to a nice sneaky form monitor what was going on, learn when the final attack on the Arch Demon was about to go down, and then go seduce the most gullible warden. See that's the problem with Morrigan her having more time only benefits her thanks to the fact she is practically immortal.

It needs to be the night before the archdemon dies (why it happens in Redcliffe 2 days from Denerim has been addressed by DG already, and it's because of time constraints in making the game). I didn't say that she needed the Warden to take the kb, but they _do_ need to be gullible, and faced with the prospect of death (I say that because I do not think her proposal would be accepted otherwise, not because it's a condition of the ritual.)



Why she doesn't just seduce the Warden with no mention of the ritual, I don't know. I would guess that having consent also has something to do with it, though that's not specifically mentioned, otherwise, as I've said before, if she was in a romance she could just come and say "I want to sleep with you one last time before you go off to your possible death," and that would be the end of it.

[TzaTheAncient]

Im not sure. Shes shady but there is (if your a male char) a feeling of adornment for one another through the game. Something more genuine feeling between you and morrigan.



The way the game leads off after you accept the deal also seems to lead that there will be more. Between the passionate sexing up and the possible answers of "i swear I will find you".



I did not find the deal to be evil. Ferelden needs GW's. Morrigan might be up to something but, if you accepted the deal you must know if it backfires and she does something that could be dangerous to others or power hungry then it is your responsibility.

[robertthebard]

Recidiva wrote...

Question to those who think you do the dark ritual...and to addressing thinking it works out for the greater good somehow...

I get it when you're making a sacrifice of self or a sacrifice of someone who volunteered. That's what made Shayle noble and makes anyone who takes the final blow (sans deal) (voluntarily...not in the case of Loghain, who is coerced into it, basically...his choices are...death...or...death) noble.

But how exactly is the baby volunteering for anything? I think the child is certainly headed for being tortured and warped in the manner that Flemeth tortured and warped Morrigan at best. At worst, much worse. Virtual body and mind slavery for an extended lifetime.

Sacrifice is something that's chosen. Not something you choose for someone else. Because then it's murder and slavery and subjugation. And letting Morrigan choose for you is being entirely beyond irresponsible.

Considering Loghain made "every sacrifice" he deemed necessary, only that he never made a personal sacrifice, he just volunteered other people to sacrifice...how does this make you any different from Loghain's methods?

At which point is abdicating responsibility (trusting that Morrigan will...do the right thing...inexplicably and against all evidence to the contrary) and resorting to...torturing and sacrificing a baby...not gray and not ending a blight, but just raw selfish ambition?

If you think that Morrigan's got anybody's best interests in mind, it is as silly to me as saying that Loghain just didn't know what Howe was up to.

You're not ending the blight by taking Morrigan's deal by any stretch of the imagination. You are in fact allowing the blight to take on human intelligence. You are extending the blight. The means you're resorting to are not only counter to your goals, but only catering to personal weakness and inability to make sacrifices, making someone else pay the price for you. In this case, a baby of all things.

The final benefit for me is to have hardened Alistair and Anora marry, to have Loghain or me take the final blow.

I can't see how even in a Grey Warden sense that you're ending the blight in any way. What you're doing is justifying extending someone's life (a life of a Grey Warden whose motto is...in death...sacrifice...not...in death...weaseling out by resorting to blackest magic...) and that's it.

You can end the blight without taking Morrigan's deal. It's a selfish motivation entirely, no matter how I've seen it spun here.

Unless someone can give it another try without telling me that Morrigan's deal does anything other than preserve the life of one Grey Warden. One Grey Warden whose job it is to end the blight, which can be accomplished with ending the life of a Grey Warden.

So I don't get it. Maybe I never will, but I am not seeing how it's in any way an noble thing or even a pragmatic thing. It's an evil, selfish thing that puts you pretty much firmly in the company of the bad guys.

So, the fact that the Blight does indeed end is moot, because a Warden didn't die?  This because I am to take a modern view of "baby's rights" into consideration in a fantasy setting?  It is perfectly acceptable to recruit one into the Grey Wardens against their will, and then drop the bomb on them that they must die to end the Blight?  I'm still curious as to where everyone gets "demon baby" since we know that demon and darkspawn physiology are different, from somebody that could be considered an expert on both, seeing as he's a Grey Warden Blood Mage.  Yes yes, the unfortunately named Archdemon, who's really just a darkspawn tainted Old God.

So tell me, do we know that the GW taint from which ever GW does the ritual won't cancel out the darkspawn taint from the Old God?  Do we know that without the Taint, the Old God is evil?  It seems we put a lot of assumption into the "fact" that the baby can be nothing but evil.  Of course, this stems a lot from people that assume that Morrigan is the "Queen of all That is Evil" in Ferelden, if not Thedas.  If we assume modern morality on this subject, do we even know that the baby won't be stillborn, since the soul of the Old God can't exist in a vessel that has a soul, hence the reason a GW is needed anyway?  No, we don't know any of this, yet we assign the baby with the title of "Demon Baby", and assume that it can only be evil.

So, I reject the proposal that just because a Grey Warden didn't die to end the Blight it doesn't count.  The Epilog told me, upon completion of the game, that the Blight did indeed end, and faser than any Blight in history.  There can be no other interpretation.

[Jules8445]

Recidiva wrote...

Jules8445 wrote...

We can probably argue this in circles as long as people want.  I'm pretty sure nobody is going to budge on their individul opinion. This is a fun conversation, but I think you're splitting hairs here.  

She says it will be a child with the spirit of an old god inside of it. Nowhere does it say that the child will never be a child...you're assuming things that haven't been established by cannon. (Unless I missed something, which I'm more than willing to allow as possibility)

Lol, that's sad about Alistair killing Wynne...I'd never make him do that, they really like each other in my game...she even explained to him where babies come from!  (At least we know he goes into things with Morrigan understanding how it's going to work)

Again, unless I missed something big, it doesn't say anywhere that there won't ever be a child there...and on the same note, Flemeth's personality wasn't taken over by her demon...so she's okay like Wynne? 

Absolutely, this is just my opinion about a game.  I think Morrigan is a liar and she's got blood vials all over her camp and she's mad when I don't drown kittens.  I don't have to trust her, she's entirely untrustworthy.  I don't have to think she's telling me any more of the truth than Loghain or the sloth demon are compelled to tell me truth.  I have to rely on my own judgment based on what the game gives me, and that's my judgment. 

Yes, I had an entirely evil playthrough where I sided with all the bad guys, did every possible evil thing and bought Alistair's approval with all the gifts left over from party members that otherwise didn't survive.  He finished the game at 100 Adore (never could bring myself to sleep with him, eeew, but accepted his rose and his love, never hardened him, wouldn't do his personal quest.)

I did kill Connor myself, I did have Alistair kill Wynne, and made it through the game wtih Alistair, Dog, Oghren and Sten.  Killed or failed to rescue everyone else.   Sided with Branka, Werewolves and Templars.

Alistair sacrificed himself at the end for me.  Which I consider in my own personal way to think is the most evil thing I could do in the game. 

None of my "evil" characters ever want to take Morrigan's deal because that's just too big of a "hand someone else a lot of power and wait for it to bite you in the ass" thing.  Too risky.

None of my "good" characters ever want to take Morrigan's deal because they always are set on self sacrifice.

The only character that managed to take the deal was "I want this achievement" character.  And it wasn't really justified in any roleplay sense.  I just wanted to do it to see what happened.  EEEW.

So it's possible to be the most evil I can conceive and still have Alistair's complete adoration.  *shudder*

And you've got a very well reserached opinion   I respect it a lot based on all the info you've given.  I think we just play different ways.

lol, well yeah.  You can buy it.  I didn't buy it though.  The only time I gave him gifts was when they had personal meaning to him.  I didn't give him the ones that simply bought adoration. I like to earn it.  I did sleep with him...god that cutscene was awkward  >.< 

I got really attached to the Alistair character, but then again I've said that I have a knight in shining armor complex, and I think he's a kind of adorable character. 

My character did want to take Morrigan's deal....and I'd made every "right" choice I could.  I rescued the werewolves, I saved Connor, I helped the Circle Tower, all that stuff.    I guess she was just a selfish romantic like I am.     

Back to the point of the thread, though.  I agree, Morrigan could be lying.  I think it'll be fun for us to track her down and kick her arse in the expansion if that's the case...and maybe get my rogue and Alistair a little adoptive demon kiddo...since I didn't see any half-elf kids running around I don't think they have any other options.

[TzaTheAncient]

eschilde wrote...

Now I may be wrong, but I believe is all she needs is an arch demon to die and to have sex with a newly tainted warden. Said warden doesn't have to be the one to make the final blow. Seems to me, all she'd have to do is shapeshift to a nice sneaky form monitor what was going on, learn when the final attack on the Arch Demon was about to go down, and then go seduce the most gullible warden. See that's the problem with Morrigan her having more time only benefits her thanks to the fact she is practically immortal.

It needs to be the night before the archdemon dies (why it happens in Redcliffe 2 days from Denerim has been addressed by DG already, and it's because of time constraints in making the game). I didn't say that she needed the Warden to take the kb, but they _do_ need to be gullible, and faced with the prospect of death (I say that because I do not think her proposal would be accepted otherwise, not because it's a condition of the ritual.)

Why she doesn't just seduce the Warden with no mention of the ritual, I don't know. I would guess that having consent also has something to do with it, though that's not specifically mentioned, otherwise, as I've said before, if she was in a romance she could just come and say "I want to sleep with you one last time before you go off to your possible death," and that would be the end of it.

Perhaps she tells you of it beacuse there is something genuine (as i just posted) between you two. She states (if you sex her up earlier) that you intrigued her when she first saw you in the wilds. Perhaps she knows you will sometime end up finding her, even though she does not want it to happen.

[Recidiva]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

Now I may be wrong, but I believe is all she needs is an arch demon to die and to have sex with a newly tainted warden. Said warden doesn't have to be the one to make the final blow. Seems to me, all she'd have to do is shapeshift to a nice sneaky form monitor what was going on, learn when the final attack on the Arch Demon was about to go down, and then go seduce the most gullible warden. See that's the problem with Morrigan her having more time only benefits her thanks to the fact she is practically immortal.

She's not going to get this chance again any time soon. 

Having only two wardens left was the blackmail and influence position that Flemeth went to the trouble of arranging.  She saved the only two, the newest two only.  She didn't save the prince or Duncan.  She saved the two most easy to influence.  

I didn't fall for it.  Riordan sure as hell wouldn't have, or Morrigan would have gone for him.  They needed new and beholden Grey Wardens to even consider it.

Theoretically in the meantime Flemeth and Morrigan will be too busy playing "Voldemort" to bother anyone else particularly, certainly not be as destructive as a blight itself.  Hell, when we first found our heroines they were stuck out in the forest slapping each other and telling stories.  Let's hope they are too busy being afraid of each other to do much else.

But I certainly don't have to help them.

[TzaTheAncient]

The sexing up and baby making before the epic battle just made the game 1000 times more epic and amazing anyways.