244 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

@Recidiva I'm with you on that, you can definitely do the DR and feel perfectly justified. I like having my happy ending at the end (although DG crushed my hopes of little Alistairs running around in the epilogue, cry) but I do think it's silly to try to convince yourself that 1) it's not a selfish or ignoble decision or 2) it's really better in the long run, cause.. that's not something you can really prove one way or another, and it's a dangerous "if".

[KariTR]

I think the big hole in the OP's reasoning is, he is likely to be long dead before the consequences of "ressurrecting" an Old God present themselves. And if Alistair is the father this definately means the Grey Wardens will have no forewarning, unless he has an epiphany before his own death sometime in the future and changes his mind about with-holding the details of the ritual from his "brothers and sisters."

Edit: There was also some discussion about Alistair choosing to perform the ritual of his own free will if you are upfront with him about the child. This isnt strictly true, this will only succeed if you have "hardened" him which - to me at least - is just another form of manipulation.

Modifié par KariTR, 07 janvier 2010 - 10:13 .

[Srslydude01]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in this thread (only read the first and last pages). I am personally led to believe that Morrigan plans to follow in her mother's footsteps to a degree. The essence of the old god that has been transferred to the baby does not make the baby have anything to do with demons/darkspawn. The baby is instead a form of the Old God it once was and be similar to the way it was before the Maker imprisoned them deep underground. Morrigan mentions this if you press her about it when she is explaining it to you, pretty sure. The point is that I think Morrigan plans on using Flemeth's grimoire to learn how to take over the body of her child. So therefore she will have the power of an Old God. Although, I don't think she would do anything evil with it necessarily, especially if you were friendly with her. But you never know.

Also it may not be possible to take over the child because the child has the essence of an Old God in it and Morrigan makes a mistake thinking it is and the Old God gets "loose", I wouldn't know. I personally have picked this ending both times so far and thinking about sacrificing Loghain for the third, but I may want to keep him alive. I like the concept of it and the happy ending.

Modifié par Srslydude01, 08 janvier 2010 - 06:44 .

[Recidiva]

kgav wrote...

Nothing in the entire game ever leads one believe Morrigan seeks power over others. If anything the entire game Morrigan would be happier out in the Wilds away from people. I don't think there is a logical basis for this line of thought. If anything perhaps Morrigan see the child as a potential immortal vessel she my be able to one day possess. Morrigan is not a conquerer. 

My opinion and experiences are so entirely different from yours we might as well have not played the same game.

I don't see how not being a conquerer is a selling point when it comes right after "Perhaps Morrigan sees the child as a potential immortal vessel she may be able to one day possess" - and do what with, exactly, start a sewing circle?  Why does she need that much power?  For charity events?  No...I see no impulse toward charity.  Only narcissistic power gathering.  It's the only thing she values.

I can give or could give any number of examples, but if you didn't play it and you didn't see it, there's no point in me having seen it as far as comparison goes.  So I'm not attempting to antagonize you or change your mind.  But here's my experience.

Specifically:  Morrigan at the anvil counsels me to keep the anvil, even though she heard Caridin's story.  She said I should keep it because "my power would rival that of the Maker."  Nobody put these words in her mouth.  She disapproves when I give away money...to orphans.  Or to anybody.  I would assume that's because she wants it herself.    She's impressed when I choose to wipe out the Dalish.  Because werewolves are strong.

In all discussions regarding love or sentimentality, she comes down like an angry hammer on any conversation options that defend love or attachment, which she thinks are foolish and a sign of ignorance and stupidity.  She's equally critical to any suggestion that maybe Flemeth is a crazy abusive **** who shouldn't be near children.

She may not be an effective conqueror, as she obviously intended to ride my coat-tails as far as she could.  She is absolutely selfishly and destructively power hungry, with the means and motive to take "power hunger" to heretofore unheard of heights.

If you don't see it, cool.  But through my several playthroughs it was always my only impression of her. 

Perhaps I evoked different responses by not telling her what she wanted to hear and I got more of the sharp edge of her tongue when she trashed ideas like love and family looking out for each other.  Maybe it's when she's mad when I give money away or help people.

Maybe it's because she wants one of the most powerful things Ferelden has to offer...an Old God's soul and then she wants to scurry into the dark to do whatever she wants without interference.

On my playthroughs I have plenty of evidence, from Flemeth, from Morrigan herself, from Morrigan's behavior through every stage of the game, and in her discussions with me and her banter with party members.

The best people can say is "You don't know what she'll do."  I don't?  I can sure as hell make an educated guess.  And I've yet to see why my guess is uneducated.

Why...if you let her live and don't take her deal, is she hanging out with the Orlesian court if she just wants to be left alone in the woods?

Modifié par Recidiva, 07 janvier 2010 - 10:26 .

[KariTR]

To endorse Recidiva's points, as early as "Deep in the Wilds" when you waken in Flemeth's hut, Morrigan tells you she would have chosen to rescue someone far more valuable than 2 Grey Wardens. When you ask her why she would need coin out in the Wilds, she tells you she has no interest in the coin but in power they would bring her.

[ozsras]

kgav wrote...

ozsras wrote...

I did the ritual once and I'll never do it again.

My PC is not here to save the Archdemon's soul, he's not here to redeem Lohgain, or raise Alistair or anything else for that matter.

His job is to end the Blight. Period. The old saying "the devil you know..." well that's what I think of when Morrigan comes up with her ritual. I know that by killing this Archdemon the Blight is over. But whatever Morrigan has, whatever it is...I don't know. And there are way too many variables in that situation for me to allow her to get away with her plans. I won't faciltate Morrigan and her power plays. She was at 100 friendship my PC and I think she's a great character. But I won't endanger Ferelden or Theadas. And I truly think it's a dangerous decision to make when choosing the ritual.

Just because something has been done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean it is the best way of doing it.

Morrigan always capitulated to my authority throughout the play through. I sent her in to save Connor and she did it and would not make any deals with the demon. She always spots the demons and never attempts to gain power from them. Which means Morrigan is not like Flemeth, according to the legend Flemeth made a deal with a demon to get her revenge and the demon bound to her making Flemeth and abomination. 

It became quite obvious to me throughout my play through that without me the Darkspawn would win. I had Morrigan save Connor, I destroyed the Anvil, I tried to do the right thing at every turn. Am I to suddenly believe things will be fine without me? I don't! I do not completely trust Morrigan but I can handle her if need arises in the future. I don't consider her a lier, she uses omission rather than lies. She is always up front with her opinions. I don't consider her to be evil. She is practical, rational she is what I would be if I were not raised in a loving family. She was taught survival it the top priority in life and simply bases her decisions on that. Being exposed to me has shown her that you can survive and do the right thing, you don't have to take the easy way out at the expense of others.

I'm not doing it a certain way. I'm going on what I know about the situation, Morrigan and the info I've gotten from Riorden and others. I'm not thinking about what the other GW's would think, or what has happened in the past. I'm doing what I think is best *at the moment*.
I also sent her into the fade for Connor and she didn't deal with them either. However, I would say that Morrigan herself didn't really *need* anything from that Demon. What she needed was...you, or Alistair.


How can you handle her when you don't even know where she will be? Or how powerful she or the child will be? Or how she will use the child? Everything about the ritual is cloaked in the unknown and what if's. She either knows little about the ritual (which would dangerous in and of itself) or she knows but she's not going to tell you for her own reasons or that perhaps you would object to those reasons. None of that screams "trust me I'm doing the right thing this time. I promise!"

I would add that when you go to the Alienage and if you are a City Elf and your *father* is in a cage, she will still say you should take the blood mage's offer. After traveling with me this whole time, after watching ask after my father time and time again she still thinks it would be *practical* to kill my own father for a few health points. So I don't think she's become more charitable and caring since being in my company. Certainly she likes me, even considers me a sister of sorts, but she hasn't changed her spots.

[kgav]

I heard the same thing as you at the Anvil and I told her I could make her into a Golem, she shut right up. Every time she suggested doing what I considered wrong I persuaded her to see my side and she would quiet down about it.

I see her suggestions of acquiring power at every turn as a means for me to fulfill my quest of ending the blight. If I acquire every bit of power I can it makes winning that much easier. It's not because she wants the power herself.

Morrigan sets the tone right off the bat when you enter Lothering for the first time with Alistair, if you ask her opinion she says go straight out and confront Loghain head on. She is direct.

Every side quest is an unnecessary distraction in her eyes. Helping orphans is pointless if we don't end the blight so hurry up and end the blight already. That is the way I take her disapprovals.

She wasn't raise to have a moral compass, power is useful to have. I see her as someone who will take the opportunity to acquire power when it presents itself but I don't see her as having a diabolical master plan with what to do with that power other than preserve the life she wishes to have for herself.

If you play a male character and romance her she freaks out when she realizes she is falling in love with you. I thought that was funny. She doesn't know what love really is until you as a male character romance her. And the story also makes a big deal out of the ring she gives you. It's suggested the ring can be used to find her so there is no reason to believe you can't find her, why else put that in.

Modifié par kgav, 07 janvier 2010 - 10:48 .

[Recidiva]

ozsras wrote...

I would add that when you go to the Alienage and if you are a City Elf and your *father* is in a cage, she will still say you should take the blood mage's offer. After traveling with me this whole time, after watching ask after my father time and time again she still thinks it would be *practical* to kill my own father for a few health points. So I don't think she's become more charitable and caring since being in my company. Certainly she likes me, even considers me a sister of sorts, but she hasn't changed her spots.

Oh...my.  classy lady.

[ozsras]

Recidiva wrote...

ozsras wrote...

I would add that when you go to the Alienage and if you are a City Elf and your *father* is in a cage, she will still say you should take the blood mage's offer. After traveling with me this whole time, after watching ask after my father time and time again she still thinks it would be *practical* to kill my own father for a few health points. So I don't think she's become more charitable and caring since being in my company. Certainly she likes me, even considers me a sister of sorts, but she hasn't changed her spots.

Oh...my.  classy lady.

Yeah I was *pissed*. Honestly? I actually got *mad* at the game. Congrats Bioware you sure know how to write'em!

[Recidiva]

kgav wrote...

I heard the same thing as you at the Anvil and I told her I could make her into a Golem, she shut right up. Every time she suggested doing what I considered wrong I persuaded her to see my side and she would quiet down about it.

I see her suggestions of acquiring power at every turn as a means for me to fulfill my quest of ending the blight. If I acquire every bit of power I can it makes winning that much easier. It's not because she wants the power herself.

Morrigan sets the tone right off the bat when you enter Lothering for the first time with Alistair, if you ask her opinion she says go straight out and confront Loghain head on. She is direct.

Every side quest is an unnecessary distraction in her eyes. Helping orphans is pointless if we don't end the blight so hurry up and end the blight already. That is the way I take her disapprovals.

She wasn't raise to have a moral compass, power is useful to have. I see her as someone who will take the opportunity to acquire power when it presents itself but I don't see her as having a diabolical master plan with what to do with that power other than preserve the life she wishes to have for herself.

And when you're not there to shut her right up, what do you think she's going to do with a huge amount of power and nobody to keep her ambition in check?

She's direct about Loghain, and she's also wrong.  She tactically rejects any choice on the basis that it doesn't directly benefit HER.  Even if it benefits me, or someone else, or helps win hearts or minds, or basically isn't stomping someone in the face with spiked boots.  She wants to get to the end game because that's the only bit she cares about.

If helping orphans is pointless...why don't you slit Alistair's throat?  He's an orphan.   No, not him.  Now that he's big enough to wield a sword and is a potential heir, NOW he's of use? 

She thinks we're going to lose if I give away 5 gold?  Really?  She's that cheap and short sighted?

I reject the idea that human/dwarven/elven life is valueless because it isn't of a certain race or class or wields enough power or influence to abuse their privilege.  And those are Morrigan's core beliefs.  So no, I can't see any good in what she does.  She'd have to have...done some good...at some point in time...for me to acknowledge it.  And words are cheap.  Her actions make her out to be a cowardly (oh, go kill my mom without me...) power grubbing opportunist.  I love her to death, but I don't need to pretend she's any different than what she is.

Any "good" character I play rejects her value system not only in an emotional sense, but in a strategic sense.  If you are going to raise armies, you need help.  The idea of "help" is alien and distasteful to her.  My characters will give her the benefit of the doubt until she leaves no doubt.  She's part of the team until she makes an ultimatum and leaves of her own accord.

Any "evil" character I play just wants her gone as soon as possible because she's got no loyalty and is a bigger threat just because my evil character wants any power available and doesn't want to have to compete with Morrigan for it.  She's sent away from camp pretty much as soon as I get a replacement herbalist.

[Leg_lamp]

I think Morrigan is a great - she is such an interesting and complicated character. I do believe she did knew from the start that she was supposed to try to conceive this child, although it puzzles me why she wasn't nicer to Alistair the whole time. Morrigan will also say that she won't harm Ferelden, and she won't harm the child (for the one day that it is going to be a child or whatever). I also believe that her friendship/love once earned is genuine.

However, it is just that Morrigan has shown time and time again that she has incredibly questionable judgment, and isn't so bright at times either. I don't know if she has proven herself a grubbing power mongerer yet, but to me she has proven that she definitely doesn't have a benevolent attitude towards humanity and society. In other words, I think she would be an unfit mother.

I might have trusted her more if she would have given the PC more details about what she planned to do with the child, but she refused to do so, so this makes me assume the worst. She also hates saving Redcliffe, Lothering bargains, and being forthright.

The least troublesome scenario for me is maybe if one is RP'ing an elven apostate mage circle-hater. I can also sort of understand it in games the father is a male PC who loves Morrigan. But I think the danger of having the demon baby running around outweighs the need for Ferelden to have a competent Grey Warden running around (but I think it is even better if Loghain sacrifices himself instead of you).  I think the risk is increased exponentially since Morrigan would be raising the baby.

Modifié par Leg_lamp, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:02 .

[Morroian]

kgav wrote...

I heard the same thing as you at the Anvil and I told her I could make her into a Golem, she shut right up. Every time she suggested doing what I considered wrong I persuaded her to see my side and she would quiet down about it.

I see her suggestions of acquiring power at every turn as a means for me to fulfill my quest of ending the blight. If I acquire every bit of power I can it makes winning that much easier. It's not because she wants the power herself.

Yeah this was my interpretation of her dialogue as well.

[Thromun]

There is one aspect of the whole Dark Ritual that I almost never see mentioned.



Lets take away all our metagame knowledge and just for a moment assume that it is entirely possible for not only Riordan to die before the Archdemon, but the other two Grey Wardens (PC + Alistair/Loghain) too:



1. If you did not do the ritual with Morrigan, then Ferelden would be basicly lost at that moment. No Grey Wardens left to slay the Archdemon and therefor no way to end the Blight.



2.If you however did the ritual with Morrigan, Your leftover allies could still try to fight the Archdemon, and if they succeed and someone would manage to land a killing blow on it, instead of jumping to another Darkspawn host the essence of the Old God would still go into Morrigans child, therefor ending the blight. (At least for the moment)



So, unless I am mistaken accepting Morrigans offer seems to be the "safest" way of ensuring you get your job done and end the Blight.

[eschilde]

Thromun wrote...

There is one aspect of the whole Dark Ritual that I almost never see mentioned.

Lets take away all our metagame knowledge and just for a moment assume that it is entirely possible for not only Riordan to die before the Archdemon, but the other two Grey Wardens (PC + Alistair/Loghain) too:

1. If you did not do the ritual with Morrigan, then Ferelden would be basicly lost at that moment. No Grey Wardens left to slay the Archdemon and therefor no way to end the Blight.

2.If you however did the ritual with Morrigan, Your leftover allies could still try to fight the Archdemon, and if they succeed and someone would manage to land a killing blow on it, instead of jumping to another Darkspawn host the essence of the Old God would still go into Morrigans child, therefor ending the blight. (At least for the moment)

So, unless I am mistaken accepting Morrigans offer seems to be the "safest" way of ensuring you get your job done and end the Blight.

1) What? No? Do you have some weirdly modded game where Morrigan kills you AND Alistair/Loghain/Riordan for refusing her ritual? What are you talking about? Morrigan's ritual does not grant you god mode. It only prevents you from dying when you kill the archdemon.

2) ... your second point is dependent on your first. Uh. Like I said. Dark Ritual != God Mode

[ozsras]

kgav wrote...

I heard the same thing as you at the Anvil and I told her I could make her into a Golem, she shut right up. Every time she suggested doing what I considered wrong I persuaded her to see my side and she would quiet down about it.

I see her suggestions of acquiring power at every turn as a means for me to fulfill my quest of ending the blight. If I acquire every bit of power I can it makes winning that much easier. It's not because she wants the power herself.

Morrigan sets the tone right off the bat when you enter Lothering for the first time with Alistair, if you ask her opinion she says go straight out and confront Loghain head on. She is direct.

Every side quest is an unnecessary distraction in her eyes. Helping orphans is pointless if we don't end the blight so hurry up and end the blight already. That is the way I take her disapprovals.

She wasn't raise to have a moral compass, power is useful to have. I see her as someone who will take the opportunity to acquire power when it presents itself but I don't see her as having a diabolical master plan with what to do with that power other than preserve the life she wishes to have for herself.

If you play a male character and romance her she freaks out when she realizes she is falling in love with you. I thought that was funny. She doesn't know what love really is until you as a male character romance her. And the story also makes a big deal out of the ring she gives you. It's suggested the ring can be used to find her so there is no reason to believe you can't find her, why else put that in.

1) She readily admits that power is the only thing that matters to her. If you romance her and refuse the ritual she leaves. This was never about you (the PC I mean) it was about finishing her task. That's why she stayed with you. Love or not you are a tool for her. She doesn't get what she wants she leaves. Power is the one thing she respects.

I see Morrigan as a very impetuous, childlike person. She remind me a lot of Faith in Buffy. Want. Take. Have. Except when she has it, it will probably backfire on her ass and be really, really messy. Hence me stopping it before she blows up Ferelden.

ETA:
Also, she has an agenda. When Flemeth offers Morrigan as a companion for you at her hut, Morrigan and Flemeth have a discussion over her leaving. And I got the impression that Flemeth had seen or known about you and your merry band of GW's for awhile now. And had planned accordingly. However, I will admit that Flemeth scares the crap out of me. She's no bat**** old lady - she plays at it but no, she's totally not. And she's lived so long...yeah Flemeth had a lot of plans. Whatever they were we aren't privy to, nor was Morrigan so she says, but I do know that those two weren't just cooking barbacue on the grill and arguing about which Chasind man to posion next.

Or maybe they were but that was during their down time.

Son of the Edit:
On the ring. If you can sense her then conversely she can sense you, yes? So if she doesn't want you around and the ring makes it eaiser for her to sense you then...she won't be found by you?

Modifié par ozsras, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:25 .

[TSamee]

Redcliva, I ended up making almost identical decisions as you (but my PC was a male, in love with her), and, I have to say, you're completely correct as far as Morrigan's hunger for power goes.

I'm probably just defending Morrigan here for the sake of idealistic stupidity, but, for a moment, could we all forget that she's a secretive, power-hungry mage who has undoubtedly made plans with Flemeth? It's hard to do, but my theory starts off with Morrigan as a child, brought up by Flemeth.

All she has ever known prior to her meeting with the Warden was taught to her by Flemeth. And, well, Flemeth being herself, she started to press her beliefs onto her little bundle of joy, who, Flemeth being the only person she's ever known, accepted all of it without question. Hell, the old girl is probably in a symbiotic relationship with a demon. Would you want someone like that raising children?

Morrigan seems to be unsure about herself and her feelings if you start a relationship with her, so, provided she wasn't manipulating you the whole time, she is actually capable of human emotion, even if she'd like us to think otherwise. She believes in power because she's been taught to discard everything else and view power above all. Flemeth truly believes in power, hence Morrigan's beliefs (note: I'm assuming the Flemeth of legend and this Flemeth are one and the same):

Flemeth, if the legends are correct, was betrayed by the man she loved. Over the years, she's doubtless seen others give up or forfeit power for love, or make irrational decisions when in love. Thus, she's bitter and views love as the ultimate weakness, and makes sure Morrigan knows this, so that she is more effective as a tool when she grows up (love for another could make her stop obeying Flemeth).

Flemeth might lust for power because, in her younger years, she had none. The aforementioned betrayal happened when the man she loved (I believe he was a bard, the name eludes me) prettymuch sold her to a powerful warlord. You know, sold, like cattle. Obviously, that's just a small part of it, but once you have the power to strike back at those who hurt you (magic, in Flemeth's case), things tend to snowball from there, and you eventually end up an old, wizened badass that can transform into a dragon. Well, Flemeth's power lust has had plenty of time to grow, and thus she's taught Morrigan to value power over everything else in her life, both because Flemeth believes it herself, and because it will make her easy to manipulate into taking a course which increases her power (and, if Flemeth possesses her, increasing Flemeth's).

After being shown no mercy by the world she grew up in, Flemeth views mercy as another weakness. She makes sure Morrigan "knows" this as well. Her beliefs were probably bolstered by people who she's doubtless seen lose power (or gain nothing) by showing mercy (remember, she is at least 400 years old, so she's had plenty of time to see these things...)

All of this, the lack of mercy, power and true love in Flemeth's early life moulded her into the bitter hag she is in DA. She grew up with the impression (which, at the time, was fairly true) that the world was simply survival of the fittest, and that power equals survival. Thus, power is important above everything else to her.

Now imagine having a mother who'd had all of this taught to her the hard way by life, and is now a semi-insane, incredibly powerful abomination, and who is, ultimately, raising you to be her tool (emotions get in the way of goals, so Flemeth wouldn't want Morrigan having too many of those...). Every single thing she says to you reflects what she believes in, and, because she's the only other human you know, you have to accept everything she says about humanity.

Maybe I'm being a soppy idiot here, but I seriously think that, if you started a relationship with Morrigan, she's become unsure of Flemeth's "lessons", and herself. I might have fathered her little demon, but I'm hoping her time with my Warden has made her unsure of what to do with it.

Just looked back on this. God above, why the hell are my posts this long?

Modifié par TSamee, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:19 .

[Thromun]

eschilde wrote...

1)
What? No? Do you have some weirdly modded game where Morrigan kills you
AND Alistair/Loghain/Riordan for refusing her ritual?

erm, did you even read what i posted?

I said _IF_ it would be possible for you and Alistair to die in the Denerim battle.
Of course we know that is not the case, because we know that we are playing a videogame and therefor it is not possible for our character to die permanently and have the story advance.

So let me explain it again:
-You refuse Morrigans ritual, head into the battle in Denerim, watch Riordan die, and then you and Alistair get smashed to little pieces by the Darkspawn horde and its Generals. _IF_ that would happen there would be no chance left to end the Blight at all. Game Over.

Of course you know that this is not going to happen, because its a game and you can simply reload a savegame and try again.
But if you try to put yourself into the position of your PC and actually roleplay the character it is entirely possible to at least consider the chance that you yourself don't make it to the Archdemon.

Modifié par Thromun, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:16 .

[Recidiva]

Thromun wrote...

There is one aspect of the whole Dark Ritual that I almost never see mentioned.

Lets take away all our metagame knowledge and just for a moment assume that it is entirely possible for not only Riordan to die before the Archdemon, but the other two Grey Wardens (PC + Alistair/Loghain) too:

1. If you did not do the ritual with Morrigan, then Ferelden would be basicly lost at that moment. No Grey Wardens left to slay the Archdemon and therefor no way to end the Blight.

2.If you however did the ritual with Morrigan, Your leftover allies could still try to fight the Archdemon, and if they succeed and someone would manage to land a killing blow on it, instead of jumping to another Darkspawn host the essence of the Old God would still go into Morrigans child, therefor ending the blight. (At least for the moment)

So, unless I am mistaken accepting Morrigans offer seems to be the "safest" way of ensuring you get your job done and end the Blight.

No, I don't accept that.  It seems like a hopeful shorcut to ending something when you're not actually ending it.  If you do it the Grey Warden way, you have a clean end.  Not a "to be continued...*creepy music*"  If you die, that's a good death.

You know you're going to have to fight like hell already, but you have armies.  You know Morrigan's up to no good, and she will tell you that if you don't help her, she will leave.  Okay.  Good.  Go.  Don't need you up there if you don't want to end the blight.  She clearly doesn't care about it, best she is gone.

There are other Grey Wardens in the world, we're not the "last of our kind" but we can at least buy the other GW's some time by wiping out what we can.  If the Archdemon survives, it's not for not giving it the best shot and wiping out a lot of darkspawn in the meantime.  I can do the best I can do, and I don't need sex magick blackmail from a "friend" to make me feel righteous the night before battle.

[Leg_lamp]

Thromun wrote...
2.If you however did the ritual with Morrigan, Your leftover allies could still try to fight the Archdemon, and if they succeed and someone would manage to land a killing blow on it, instead of jumping to another Darkspawn host the essence of the Old God would still go into Morrigans child, therefor ending the blight. (At least for the moment)

Risk-Management via old gods?

Eschilde
2) ... your second point is dependent on your first. Uh. Like I said. Dark Ritual != God Mode

I think he means that normally if all the Gray Wardens died, then everyone would be toast.  But in this scenario, if Sten or someone managed to make it alive to the demon and cut off it's head, then the soul would go to Morrigan's womb instead of another host

[Recidiva]

TSamee wrote...

Redcliva, I ended up making almost identical decisions as you (but my PC was a male, in love with her), and, I have to say, you're completely correct as far as Morrigan's hunger for power goes.

I'm probably just defending Morrigan here for the sake of idealistic stupidity, but, for a moment, could we all forget that she's a secretive, power-hungry mage who has undoubtedly made plans with Flemeth? It's hard to do, but my theory starts off with Morrigan as a child, brought up by Flemeth.

All she has ever known prior to her meeting with the Warden was taught to her by Flemeth. And, well, Flemeth being herself, she started to press her beliefs onto her little bundle of joy, who, Flemeth being the only person she's ever known, accepted all of it without question. Hell, the old girl is probably in a symbiotic relationship with a demon. Would you want someone like that raising children?

Morrigan seems to be unsure about herself and her feelings if you start a relationship with her, so, provided she wasn't manipulating you the whole time, she is actually capable of human emotion, even if she'd like us to think otherwise. She believes in power because she's been taught to discard everything else and view power above all. Flemeth truly believes in power, hence Morrigan's beliefs (note: I'm assuming the Flemeth of legend and this Flemeth are one and the same):

Flemeth, if the legends are correct, was betrayed by the man she loved. Over the years, she's doubtless seen others give up or forfeit power for love, or make irrational decisions when in love. Thus, she's bitter and views love as the ultimate weakness, and makes sure Morrigan knows this, so that she is more effective as a tool when she grows up (love for another could make her stop obeying Flemeth).

Flemeth might lust for power because, in her younger years, she had none. The aforementioned betrayal happened when the man she loved (I believe he was a bard, the name eludes me) prettymuch sold her to a powerful warlord. You know, sold, like cattle. Obviously, that's just a small part of it, but once you have the power to strike back at those who hurt you (magic, in Flemeth's case), things tend to snowball from there, and you eventually end up an old, wizened badass that can transform into a dragon. Well, Flemeth's power lust has had plenty of time to grow, and thus she's taught Morrigan to value power over everything else in her life, both because Flemeth believes it herself, and because it will make her easy to manipulate into taking a course which increases her power (and, if Flemeth possesses her, increasing Flemeth's).

After being shown no mercy by the world she grew up in, Flemeth views mercy as another weakness. She makes sure Morrigan "knows" this as well. Her beliefs were probably bolstered by people who she's doubtless seen lose power (or gain nothing) by showing mercy (remember, she is at least 400 years old, so she's had plenty of time to see these things...)

All of this, the lack of mercy, power and true love in Flemeth's early life moulded her into the bitter hag she is in DA. She grew up with the impression (which, at the time, was fairly true) that the world was simply survival of the fittest, and that power equals survival. Thus, power is important above everything else to her.

Now imagine having a mother who'd had all of this taught to her the hard way by life, and is now a semi-insane, incredibly powerful abomination, and who is, ultimately, raising you to be her tool (emotions get in the way of goals, so Flemeth wouldn't want Morrigan having too many of those...). Every single thing she says to you reflects what she believes in, and, because she's the only other human you know, you have to accept everything she says about humanity.

Maybe I'm being a soppy idiot here, but I seriously think that, if you started a relationship with Morrigan, she's become unsure of Flemeth's "lessons", and herself. I might have fathered her little demon, but I'm hoping her time with my Warden has made her unsure of what to do with it.

There's the heart wrenching difference between being a lover or friend of Morrigan's and not being able to stop her course.  Same thing happens with Alistair.  They're both charming, adorable dysfunction that have the potential to make you want to do a lot of things to save them.

I think the only difference is that you're willing to believe in future potential positive change, and I'm not.  I can only work with what I have.  I can't save either of them, I can either give them what they want or not give them what they want.

If Morrigan had truly changed, she wouldn't offer me the choice, or she would choose to fight beside me in the final battle.  Same with Alistair.  He wouldn't walk off and forsake his duty to the Blight.  Each one of them chooses their own path rather than mine and it just is what it is.  I'm ultimately really not willing to change my final judgment (this is my judgment as a player...not as an individual character) on the intentional character flaws intended to make a player choose.

I do believe that she has a moment of crisis or conflict where she might consider giving up her plans and casting her lot in with love.  But that moment is fleeting and you don't get a vote.  Same as you don't get a vote in Alistair's crisis.  You give him what he wants or you don't.

They're both calculated to make you sacrifice something.  It might cost a character more or less depending on their viewpont and temperament.

I can love Morrigan and Alistair as characters, and I do.  And it doesn't really make you "sappy" or anything other than hopeful for a future you wish to bring about.  That's what games are for, theoretically.  It's a shame this game really does deny the concept of "happy ending" and that makes me sad, but again it's not gonna give me what I want just 'cause I'm hopeful (for that I use mods.)

But I do know better than to make a choice based on who I think someone will be in the future.  If they were going to change, they would have.   Her future is her own to choose, she chooses it, and she does so as an adult.  I can't choose it with her, and that's what I sacrifice, my right to her friendship.  Okay.  

But both Morrigan and Alistair set the ultimatum and the choice.  I can only do what I can do with what I know.

[ozsras]

But both Morrigan and Alistair set the ultimatum and the choice. I can only do what I can do with what I know.

Amen.

Don't get me wrong, I love Morrigan and Alistair they crack me up. But good lord, they make me want to pull my hair out sometimes.

Modifié par ozsras, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:30 .

[kgav]

I see it as every other supposed leader you come into contact with in the game is ineffective and useless. You are the architect of the Darkspawn's downfall. Sacrificing yourself is noble but without you the future is still grim. Duncan is gone, he would have lead this crusade with you playing the roll of his second much like Alistair is your second. But honestly I don't feel Alistair is entirely to be trusted with the future of the realm.

I feel there is something darker still brewing out there beyond my sight and it's not Morrigan or Flemeth. Playing through as a Human Male Noble who romanced Morrigan I did pause and thought about what to do for a good 5 minutes before proceeding with the ritual.

I have the ring she gave me and I felt I could search for her and find her. I would also keep my ears and eyes open for that other greater threat.

It's a risk, but a manageable one. Alistair needs me to look out for him, Harrowmont is a dud as a King, not a real leader but better than that murdering psychopath Bhelen. Basically without me or a true champion to take my place I don't see the future as very bright.

Taking Morrigan's offer was the lesser of two evils in my eyes I have no faith in the other who would lead if I am dead.

PS.

I make Alistair marry Anora because simply telling him to look out for himself one time doesn't erase the whining and crying he does though 75% of the game so I don't trust him to rule alone. 

Modifié par kgav, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:46 .

[TSamee]

True, too true XD



I've kissed Morrigan in public purely to hear what Alistair has to say about it

And Recidiva, you are, of course, right in every sense. You try desparately to make them see your side of the spectrum, but at the end of the day, it's either do what they want, or go die.



What you're saying about Morrigan having a fleeting episode of uncertainty is a lot more plausible than my "Oh, look, he's being nice to the orphans. I have to try that sometime... *goes off to act ****y*" hypothesis (oooh, big word...) Ah well, BioWare either have to gratify poor sods like me, or show us outright that we've been screwed around with non-stop by Morrigan, and, whatever she might have felt about the world for a few hours one night, she's still power-hungry, for whatever reason. Then I can get pissed, and have a reason to do it. Can't be any hazy middle ground like this at the end, though.

[pepe5454]

Seems allot just assume that her plans for the child are for evil or the child will be evil. She seemed power hungry and selfish to me but not evil (maybe didn't see all there was with her though). It could be her plans are not evil in nature at all I am sure they will benefit her but that does not mean evil will come of it actually good could come of it to. For all you know her child might have something to do with apostate mages and a new type of magic not using the fade or a new power to opose the chantry that could turn out to be a good or bad thing for the world but still self serving. Or fo all you know she just really wanted a child and did her research and decided that this is the best way for her to get the perfect child that will be strong healthy even powerfull and destined for great things =P

[Recidiva]

kgav wrote...

I see it as every other supposed leader you come into contact with in the game is ineffective and useless. You are the architect of the Darkspawn's downfall. Sacrificing yourself is noble but without you the future is still grim. Duncan is gone, he would have lead this crusade with you playing the roll of his second much like Alistair is your second. But honestly I don't feel Alistair is entirely to be trusted with the future of the realm.

I feel there is something darker still brewing out there beyond my sight and it's not Morrigan or Flemeth. Playing through as a Human Male Noble who romanced Morrigan I did pause and thought about what to do for a good 5 minutes before proceeding with the ritual.

I have the ring she gave me and I felt I could search for her and find her. I would also keep my ears and eyes open for that other greater threat.

It's a risk, but a manageable one. Alistair needs me to look out for him, Harrowmont is a dud as a King, not a real leader but better than that murdering psychopath Bhelen. Basically without me or a true champion to take my place I don't see the future as very bright.

Taking Morrigan's offer was the lesser of two evils in my eyes I have no faith on the other who would lead if I am dead.

Okay, i've certainly felt Ferelden would be lost without me.  But it's nice if I don't unleash a nasty god-child on them also.  The most pragmatic answer then is ****** off Alistair and Morrigan, sacrifice Loghain, and stick around to advise.

She disabled the ring.  And she'd certainly know you were coming first and I'd expect she'd ditch the ring in the pocket of the closest scapegoat if she thought you were getting closer.  I sure would.  I don't think it's manageable, but that's up to you.

No, I don't think the future is very bright, but hardened Alistair married to Anora do a "Golden Age" decent job.

I think the dwarves are screwed unless you're a dwarven noble and you choose Harrowmont and then succeed him.

Even if I'm going for a romance, I'll go for hardened Alistair as a Cousland noble and then die.  I have more fun during the game and I don't have to listen to the "pissy Alistair" speech.  He does make a decent king even on his own if he's hardened.

Basically, I'm not going to live very long and I've done my duty and more.  The least I can do is not make it worse.