244 réponses à ce sujet

[Joshd21]

Something I found strange with Morrgian, she is either unwilling or short answered, when you ask her about her mother. You would assume a woman in the wilds has many things to say, though when you press for information and after she is done talking.

You realize she has not really answered your question. Instead she asks you what you think. The only times I found out Morrgian really did open up when I got her the mirror. If it indeed Morrgian's mother inside Flemmth. Maybe she was talking about her mother?

Though it's strange to think the old woman is Morrgian, not something I want to have in my head while my PC and Morrgian are inside the tent messing around. However it is possible. They are both leaving a lot of mystery and unlike every other companion

expect for sten without more approval. They all open up and complete their quest. Morrgian's only quest is the grimwore and killing her mother. However I don't think it end's there, the ritual of having a baby with soul of an old god. Massive storyline?

I won't be native to think, Bioware will simply forget about that. I'm sure they have plans for it. But my only question is when? Will we see bits and parts of Morrgian in the expansion. Or will she be only in dragon age 2. Don't get me wrong. I am loooking foward

to exploring the backgrounds of the other companions. Morrgian is a unique person though

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

Thromun wrote...

There is one aspect of the whole Dark Ritual that I almost never see mentioned.

Lets take away all our metagame knowledge and just for a moment assume that it is entirely possible for not only Riordan to die before the Archdemon, but the other two Grey Wardens (PC + Alistair/Loghain) too:

1. If you did not do the ritual with Morrigan, then Ferelden would be basicly lost at that moment. No Grey Wardens left to slay the Archdemon and therefor no way to end the Blight.

2.If you however did the ritual with Morrigan, Your leftover allies could still try to fight the Archdemon, and if they succeed and someone would manage to land a killing blow on it, instead of jumping to another Darkspawn host the essence of the Old God would still go into Morrigans child, therefor ending the blight. (At least for the moment)

So, unless I am mistaken accepting Morrigans offer seems to be the "safest" way of ensuring you get your job done and end the Blight.

1) What? No? Do you have some weirdly modded game where Morrigan kills you AND Alistair/Loghain/Riordan for refusing her ritual? What are you talking about? Morrigan's ritual does not grant you god mode. It only prevents you from dying when you kill the archdemon.

2) ... your second point is dependent on your first. Uh. Like I said. Dark Ritual != God Mode

Actually, he/she(?) does have a point.  We go zipping along knowing we're going to face and defeat the Archdemon because we have F9.  What if we didn't have F9 is his/her question.  Riordan pulls his Leroy Jenkins, and the other two GW's die on the way to the top of Fort Drakon, Ferelden is screwed, even if somebody kills the Archdemon.  With the ritual, there's a safety net.

This is totally outside game mechanics, but is also what the poster suggests, no metagaming.  In that scenario, the ritual isn't god mode, but a safety net.  If the GW's wipe, but the ritual is done, then yes, anyone that kills the Archdemon will end the Blight.  This scenario isn't likely, due to F9, but it is a valid point, none the less.

[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, he/she(?) does have a point.  We go zipping along knowing we're going to face and defeat the Archdemon because we have F9.  What if we didn't have F9 is his/her question.  Riordan pulls his Leroy Jenkins, and the other two GW's die on the way to the top of Fort Drakon, Ferelden is screwed, even if somebody kills the Archdemon.  With the ritual, there's a safety net.

This is totally outside game mechanics, but is also what the poster suggests, no metagaming.  In that scenario, the ritual isn't god mode, but a safety net.  If the GW's wipe, but the ritual is done, then yes, anyone that kills the Archdemon will end the Blight.  This scenario isn't likely, due to F9, but it is a valid point, none the less.

Uh, even without metagaming, Morrigan's ritual does not prevent you from being squished by a dragon. Just because you are guaranteed not to die on taking the Archdemon kb, does not mean that you have less chance dying before you can kill it. That's not a safety net. Not to mention, you do have a choice to leave the other GW at the gates, if you really want to be careful about one of you living through it.

[kgav]

Well I may see the consequences of my decision in March with Awakening. If Morrigan is in there somewhere I will find her.

[prizm123]

my first playthrough as a human noble i just figured Morrigan just made an excuse to get into my pants because she was jealous

and as much as i loved Leliana, i had to tap that

Modifié par prizm123, 08 janvier 2010 - 01:10 .

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, he/she(?) does have a point.  We go zipping along knowing we're going to face and defeat the Archdemon because we have F9.  What if we didn't have F9 is his/her question.  Riordan pulls his Leroy Jenkins, and the other two GW's die on the way to the top of Fort Drakon, Ferelden is screwed, even if somebody kills the Archdemon.  With the ritual, there's a safety net.

This is totally outside game mechanics, but is also what the poster suggests, no metagaming.  In that scenario, the ritual isn't god mode, but a safety net.  If the GW's wipe, but the ritual is done, then yes, anyone that kills the Archdemon will end the Blight.  This scenario isn't likely, due to F9, but it is a valid point, none the less.

Uh, even without metagaming, Morrigan's ritual does not prevent you from being squished by a dragon. Just because you are guaranteed not to die on taking the Archdemon kb, does not mean that you have less chance dying before you can kill it. That's not a safety net. Not to mention, you do have a choice to leave the other GW at the gates, if you really want to be careful about one of you living through it.

I think you are still missing the point.  If no Grey Wardens get to the Archdemon, by the scenario laid out by the person in the initial quote, anyone can kill the Archdemon and end the Blight if Morrigan's ritual is done.  Again, this scenario is impossible because we can simply reload, but if this scenario could exist, that poster has a point.  If you do the ritual, it doesn't matter who kills the Archdemon, Anora could kill it by giving her speech, and the Blight would be over.

[Spitz6860]

huh, weird, i thought darkspawn blood would make you sterile, that would explain why grey wardens can't have families when blight is over, because they can't lol

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, he/she(?) does have a point.  We go zipping along knowing we're going to face and defeat the Archdemon because we have F9.  What if we didn't have F9 is his/her question.  Riordan pulls his Leroy Jenkins, and the other two GW's die on the way to the top of Fort Drakon, Ferelden is screwed, even if somebody kills the Archdemon.  With the ritual, there's a safety net.

This is totally outside game mechanics, but is also what the poster suggests, no metagaming.  In that scenario, the ritual isn't god mode, but a safety net.  If the GW's wipe, but the ritual is done, then yes, anyone that kills the Archdemon will end the Blight.  This scenario isn't likely, due to F9, but it is a valid point, none the less.

Uh, even without metagaming, Morrigan's ritual does not prevent you from being squished by a dragon. Just because you are guaranteed not to die on taking the Archdemon kb, does not mean that you have less chance dying before you can kill it. That's not a safety net. Not to mention, you do have a choice to leave the other GW at the gates, if you really want to be careful about one of you living through it.

I think you are still missing the point.  If no Grey Wardens get to the Archdemon, by the scenario laid out by the person in the initial quote, anyone can kill the Archdemon and end the Blight if Morrigan's ritual is done.  Again, this scenario is impossible because we can simply reload, but if this scenario could exist, that poster has a point.  If you do the ritual, it doesn't matter who kills the Archdemon, Anora could kill it by giving her speech, and the Blight would be over.

Archdemon:  ACK!  That speech was so awful!  Slay me now!

I think the possibility of all three dying before reaching the archdemon is a valid concern.  Ferelden is definitely screwed at that point.

[Thromun]

eschilde wrote...

Uh, even without metagaming, Morrigan's ritual does not prevent you from being squished by a dragon. Just because you are guaranteed not to die on taking the Archdemon kb, does not mean that you have less chance dying before you can kill it.

Thats exactly the point!
Nothing can guarantee you that you or the other 2 Grey Wardens don't die before or while fighting the Archdemon.
If that would happen, the battle would be lost at that point without Morrigans ritual.

Without the ritual:
If all 3 Wardens are dead the remaining Non-Grey Wardens can push their weapons into the Archdemons face all they want, the essence of the Archdemon would simply jump to the nearest Darkspawn and the Blight will continue

With the ritual done:
Even with all Wardens dead, a Non-Grey Warden (Sten/Oghren/Kardol/Irving etc. pp) could strike the Archdemon down and his essence would jump into Morrigans child, ending the blight (even if just temporarily).

If you don't do the ritual then there are only the 3 Grey Wardens who have the ability to kill the Archdemon and end the Blight. If you do the ritual however you suddenly have a few thousand human soldiers/elves/mages/dwarfes that can also end the Blight by striking the Archdemon down even if all the Wardens died previously.
(Well, as long as Morrigan and her tainted phoetus are alife that is)

Modifié par Thromun, 08 janvier 2010 - 01:38 .

[eschilde]

Thromun wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Uh, even without metagaming, Morrigan's ritual does not prevent you from being squished by a dragon. Just because you are guaranteed not to die on taking the Archdemon kb, does not mean that you have less chance dying before you can kill it.

Thats exactly the point!
Nothing can guarantee you that you or the other 2 Grey Wardens don't die before or while fighting the Archdemon.
If that would happen, the battle would be lost at that point without Morrigans ritual.

Without the ritual:
If all 3 Wardens are dead the remaining Non-Grey Wardens can push their weapons into the Archdemons face all they want, the essence of the Archdemon would simply jump to the nearest Darkspawn and the Blight will continue

With the ritual done:
Even with all Wardens dead, a Non-Grey Warden (Sten/Oghren/Kardol/Irving etc. pp) could strike the Archdemon down and his essence would jump into Morrigans child, ending the blight (even if just temporarily).

If you don't do the ritual then there are only the 3 Grey Wardens who have the ability to kill the Archdemon and end the Blight. If you do the ritual however you suddenly have a few thousand human soldiers/elves/mages/dwarfes that can also end the Blight by striking the Archdemon down even if all the Wardens died previously.
(Well, as long as Morrigan and her tainted phoetus are alife that is)

Um. I believe that the Archdemon still needs to be struck down by a Grey Warden for its soul to be destroyed without the taint. So if your GWs are dead, killing it with a normal person would cause the archdemon to reincarnate with the taint?

Well, actually, that doesn't get addressed. I just assumed. Huh. Ask a dev, I guess. but I would guess you'd still need a GW to take the blow, unless maybe Morrigan could do it herself.

[robertthebard]

Without the ritual, a GW has to strike the killing blow. If we assume no reloads, and the wardens all die before the Archdemon is slain, then Ferelden is doomed w/out the ritual. If we do the ritual, it doesn't matter who strikes the killing blow. The essence of the Archdemon will jump to the baby, instead of a darkspawn, slaying the dragon, and capturing the essence. If a GW strikes the blow, w/out the ritual, then the essence and the warden cancel eachother out, resulting in death for both. With the ritual, it doesn't matter. In my last finish, Sten got to ride on the Archdemon's head. Alistair got the cutscene kill, but that's for melodrama's sake. With the ritual, that's the only reason you have the final blow movie.

[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

Without the ritual, a GW has to strike the killing blow. If we assume no reloads, and the wardens all die before the Archdemon is slain, then Ferelden is doomed w/out the ritual. If we do the ritual, it doesn't matter who strikes the killing blow. The essence of the Archdemon will jump to the baby, instead of a darkspawn, slaying the dragon, and capturing the essence. If a GW strikes the blow, w/out the ritual, then the essence and the warden cancel eachother out, resulting in death for both. With the ritual, it doesn't matter. In my last finish, Sten got to ride on the Archdemon's head. Alistair got the cutscene kill, but that's for melodrama's sake. With the ritual, that's the only reason you have the final blow movie.

You think so? Why bother sending the GWs in at all then? If that were the case you could just let the army wear it down, screw even bothering going in. Basically if you do the ritual a GW is no longer necessary at all? (As an aside, I don't think it matters who rides on the dragon's head, the cut scene blow is the final blow.. I mean, what's all that fancy red light for?) Also, when I did the ritual, I didn't get a chance to offer the blow to Alistair even though he was there, it just cut straight to the kb... 

I didn't really get that impression but yeah, you are right, thinking about it logically it does seem that way. Think we need a dev to answer this question >.>

My first time playing through this, I took the DR and assumed I needed Morrigan to do the kb for it to work, but she wasn't even an option. My entire view of the DR has just been turned upside down, thank you >.>

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Without the ritual, a GW has to strike the killing blow. If we assume no reloads, and the wardens all die before the Archdemon is slain, then Ferelden is doomed w/out the ritual. If we do the ritual, it doesn't matter who strikes the killing blow. The essence of the Archdemon will jump to the baby, instead of a darkspawn, slaying the dragon, and capturing the essence. If a GW strikes the blow, w/out the ritual, then the essence and the warden cancel eachother out, resulting in death for both. With the ritual, it doesn't matter. In my last finish, Sten got to ride on the Archdemon's head. Alistair got the cutscene kill, but that's for melodrama's sake. With the ritual, that's the only reason you have the final blow movie.

You think so? Why bother sending the GWs in at all then? If that were the case you could just let the army wear it down, screw even bothering going in. Basically if you do the ritual a GW is no longer necessary at all? (As an aside, I don't think it matters who rides on the dragon's head, the cut scene blow is the final blow.. I mean, what's all that fancy red light for?) Also, when I did the ritual, I didn't get a chance to offer the blow to Alistair even though he was there, it just cut straight to the kb... 

I didn't really get that impression but yeah, you are right, thinking about it logically it does seem that way. Think we need a dev to answer this question >.>

My first time playing through this, I took the DR and assumed I needed Morrigan to do the kb for it to work, but she wasn't even an option. My entire view of the DR has just been turned upside down, thank you >.>

Surely.  As I said, the cutscene is there for drama, and to give Alistair a chance to showboat how "noble" he is with the female PC.  It also gives Loghain a chance to volunteer for the blow, which he will, if you have him there.  Both are w/out doing the ritual.  If you do the ritual, the PC will do the killing blow always.  However, the Archdemon is actually slain prior to the cutscene, it would just be boring to let it just die that way.

[eschilde]

@robertthebard

Right, I thought you meant that Alistair took the kb when you did the ritual, which I thought was weird. I've always felt the second cut scene is the true killblow, after all, it's when the archdemon's soul makes the leap, so to speak. It may be out of commission after you ride its head, but it's still alive enough for the transfer. That's also why I wonder if it isn't necessary to still have a GW do the ending kb.

[robertthebard]

I'm not really sure, as this scenario could never really play out in game, but with the ritual done, it really shouldn't matter who slices it's head off, and I'm really not sure that's even needed. I just don't really know. It looks good as is in theory, however, since the requirement for a dying GW is removed.

[eschilde]

@robertthebard

Nah, it makes it different. If there needs to be a GW to start the transfer, then doing the Ritual isn't a safety net.

[InvaderErl]

Didn't the first Blight last so long because they KEPT killing it and it KEPT transferring. The ritual is a safety net.

[Lucy Glitter]

There was a big part of the advertising that said we'd have to make hard choices. When you look at the big options we are presented with, all of them have clear good/bad choices and practically all of them have an easy way out. 

ME did the tough choice better in my honest opinion.

[InvaderErl]

Really I felt the opposite, in Mass Effect the good choice is clearly save the council the bad is let them die. There's no penalty for saving them. The same goes with every instance in the game. Save Feros or kill the colonist, its actually easier provided you have enough nades to save them, again no penalty.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 08 janvier 2010 - 08:08 .

[TSamee]

pepe5454 wrote...

Seems allot just assume that her plans for the child are for evil or the child will be evil. She seemed power hungry and selfish to me but not evil (maybe didn't see all there was with her though). It could be her plans are not evil in nature at all I am sure they will benefit her but that does not mean evil will come of it actually good could come of it to. For all you know her child might have something to do with apostate mages and a new type of magic not using the fade or a new power to opose the chantry that could turn out to be a good or bad thing for the world but still self serving. Or fo all you know she just really wanted a child and did her research and decided that this is the best way for her to get the perfect child that will be strong healthy even powerfull and destined for great things =P

I straight-up agree with you there. Her hunger for power is obvious, but evil intent? Not so much. To be honest, I'd like to introduce a new-ish perspective to this. Despite hungering constantly for power, what the hell is she going to do with it all? Let's assume she makes the "evil" decision, and bends Ferelden to her will using the child. She then, through what ever necessary means, conquers Thedas, killing the Warden, her former companions and all the people she knew during what was probably the most interesting time of her whole life. She is now empress of the world.

And... what then? Bucketloads of power, no purpose whatsoever, no more power to be taken. Thus, her only goal is now completed, and she is empty. She doesn't seem like someone who'd be contented with ruling Thedas. Power is a means to an end. Morrigan wants too much of the means, and doesn't seem to have a fulfilling end in mind. She'll either see life from a more human perspective, or be destroyed by the lack of any purpose whatsoever in her life.

I'm probably wrong here. But she honestly doesn't seem like she actually knows what to do with power over others, besides manipulate. And with no goal, manipulation is pointless.

InvaderErl wrote...
Really I felt the opposite, in Mass Effect the good choice is clearly save the council the bad is let them die. There's no penalty for saving them. The same goes with every instance in the game. Save Feros or kill the colonist, its actually easier provided you have enough nades to save them, again no penalty.

I agree with you completely there. Mass Effect was more black-and-white in its choices, though being "evil" did have its benefits. ME2 looks to change all that, though. In order to save the known universe, you have to put together a squad of the toughest bastards the galaxy has ever known. It's your decision to take them onboard, though, and you'll need to be pretty damn dodgy to get all of them. So, in the end, do the ends justify the means? Again, that's your choice. BioWare, you are far, far too good at what you do.

Modifié par TSamee, 08 janvier 2010 - 09:32 .

[Yagamoth3433]

My answer was based on this logic, I played roughly a similar type of personality to the OP with my human mage.



1. By accepting the ritual it would insure that someone who knew of morrigan would survive anyway, I needed to insure that alistair would survive, and honestly myself because the poor guy would be hopeless without me, but primarily alistair so if it came down to only alistair left then he would survive after dealing the killing blow.



2. I know morrigan, and I also know that I changed her, and that she is not as strong as she claims. The whole mother incident shook her, and some of my gift choices did as well, and through the game I saw her change, even if she didnt want to admit it herself. While I have some reservations about leaving her alone with the child there is still the possibility that she could make the child good or bad.



3. If I die then alistair will find her out of his usual distrust and insure the childs future, and if I live my guy was basically one of the most powerful mages in history. That tracking spell on the ring would work both ways and I would go and find her.



4. My character was probably the most capable person for the Grey Wardens in Ferelden at that point, Alistair has charisma and can temper Anora however his actual administration skills and politicking need work, hence where I come in.



5. The devil I know to put it simply, Anora was too unknown of a factor if both myself and alistair died, where as I know morrigan, so better the devil I know than the one I dont.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, he/she(?) does have a point.  We go zipping along knowing we're going to face and defeat the Archdemon because we have F9.  What if we didn't have F9 is his/her question.  Riordan pulls his Leroy Jenkins, and the other two GW's die on the way to the top of Fort Drakon, Ferelden is screwed, even if somebody kills the Archdemon.  With the ritual, there's a safety net.

This is totally outside game mechanics, but is also what the poster suggests, no metagaming.  In that scenario, the ritual isn't god mode, but a safety net.  If the GW's wipe, but the ritual is done, then yes, anyone that kills the Archdemon will end the Blight.  This scenario isn't likely, due to F9, but it is a valid point, none the less.

If all Grey Wardens die, Ferelden is in a pickle. Not compeltely gone, since there are 200 Grey Wardens on their way and other forces. The sorrounding countries won't sit idle if Ferelden begins to fall.

But le'ts assume the worst here - if all 3(4) GW's die, Ferelden falls. Thus, some people are arguing that the ritual is a good thing.
BUT if you are going to assume the worst, then the ritual can be the catalyst of an even greater disaster that might doom all of Thedas.
Which brings us back right where we started.

[InvaderErl]

Well, that's debatable really. Riordan doesn't seem to think that the Orlesian Wardens or its military is going to risk throwing itself at a lost cause. I know he says this when Loghain is in charge but if Denerim falls, they may just write off the nation altogether and prefer to fight the Darkspawn on their terms.

[TSamee]

Yagamoth3433 wrote...

My answer was based on this logic, I played roughly a similar type of personality to the OP with my human mage.

1. By accepting the ritual it would insure that someone who knew of morrigan would survive anyway, I needed to insure that alistair would survive, and honestly myself because the poor guy would be hopeless without me, but primarily alistair so if it came down to only alistair left then he would survive after dealing the killing blow.

2. I know morrigan, and I also know that I changed her, and that she is not as strong as she claims. The whole mother incident shook her, and some of my gift choices did as well, and through the game I saw her change, even if she didnt want to admit it herself. While I have some reservations about leaving her alone with the child there is still the possibility that she could make the child good or bad.

3. If I die then alistair will find her out of his usual distrust and insure the childs future, and if I live my guy was basically one of the most powerful mages in history. That tracking spell on the ring would work both ways and I would go and find her.

4. My character was probably the most capable person for the Grey Wardens in Ferelden at that point, Alistair has charisma and can temper Anora however his actual administration skills and politicking need work, hence where I come in.

5. The devil I know to put it simply, Anora was too unknown of a factor if both myself and alistair died, where as I know morrigan, so better the devil I know than the one I dont.

Couldn't have put it better myself (because, well, i didn't)

I honestly did believe she was changing a bit. I don't think the whole "kill Flemeth" thing shook her too much, as she expressed some doubts about Flemeth actually being dead (I doubt that too). But, comparing the way she speaks to the PC when you first meet to when she supposedly loves you, you can see that she's become unsure about herself. I don't know about side-quests, but we were really close by the time I did Nature of the Beast, and my decision to cure the werewolves and side with the elves (who were, in that situation, weak), and I expected Morrigan to flip. She didn't. Maybe this is evidence of her changing, but I can't be sure.

Still, though I'm definitely sure that being with you did change her, I'm not sure if she changed her views completely, or even thought about it (changed her mind) for very long. For all we know, she could have set out to manipulate you, ended up loving you, changed slightly and then convinced herself it was all meaningless.

I think that she leaves for other reasons as well, but if you refuse the Ritual, then emotions are a factor. She tells you that she wants to end this (but,  for some reason, can't bring herself to), and, if you refuse, she might be using your refusal of the Ritual to convince herself that she simply following the plan that Flemeth laid out, and was leaving because you hadn't agreed.

However, there is one key point that could kill all of our hopes here: Morrigan was either planning on using you in Flemeth's plan and fell in love with you, or she set out to manipulate you, and, as we both fell for her, she succeeded. All of our theories hinge on this, and we have no idea what the answer is.

But it's sad that, ultimately, however much you try desparately to get both Morrigan and Alistair (as a female, or a friend) to swing round to your point of view, they both end up giving you an ultimatum (perform the Ritual/kill Loghain), and they'll leave you, no going back, if you refuse.

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

@robertthebard
Nah, it makes it different. If there needs to be a GW to start the transfer, then doing the Ritual isn't a safety net.

The thing is, a GW isn't needed to start the transfer, all that's required is the dragon body to die.  That's how the first Blight lasted as long as it did.  This whole branch of the discussion is hypothetical, and we have nothing in game that we can point to to support the hypothesis, except for the lore indicating how long the first Blight lasted w/out the GW's.  However, having no GW's means that there was no possibility for a DR.  Four Blights have already been ended by the GW's doing exactly what Riordan lays out, but they didn't have the ritual either.  At least, as far as we know, nobody was offered the ritual.

What we do know is that the Blight is ended, even if you take the ritual.  In my opinion, either option is perfectly acceptable, and doesn't need to be rationalized, at all.  If the only reason one takes it is to keep from dying, my own personal reason in the one game I did this, that's cool.  If one doesn't trust Morrigan, or fears what the child may become, that's cool too.  Right or wrong, wise or not, makes no difference.  All that matters is the player's perspective at the time the ritual is offered.