244 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

@robertthebard

I agree that it doesn't need to be rationalized, but if the DR really _is_ a safety net it changes the balance of the ending game options by guaranteeing the destruction of the archdemon.

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

@robertthebard
I agree that it doesn't need to be rationalized, but if the DR really _is_ a safety net it changes the balance of the ending game options by guaranteeing the destruction of the archdemon.

The destruction is guarenteed, even w/out reloads, by game mechanics anyway.  In one game, Leliana was the last survivor, and killed the Archdemon with a Ballista, and we still get the cutscene, with Loghain taking the killing blow.  I still feel that the cutscene is to add some drama to the ending, with the choice of who kills it, when there is one, sorry female PC's that romanced Alistair and brought him with you to the Archdemon, no choice for you.

[eschilde]

I should try to rephrase.

Um. Yes, that is what the cut scene is for, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the final blow? What I kind of picture is like.. the taint in the Archdemon and the taint in the GW canceling each other out, then the Archdemon's soul trying to find a vacant spot. For that to start, the GW has to make contact with the Archdemon. Due to how the game works, there's no way to guarantee that only GWs can get the killing blow in the battle, hence the cut scene. Yeah, it's there for drama, but it also serves a purpose. Maybe you think I'm giving them too much credit :b

[robertthebard]

I'm not sure, and there's no way to be sure. No matter how the end goes down, you have the cutscene, even with the ritual, the PC grabs the sword and does the deal. However, since the first Blight did last an extremely long time, and the Archdemon was killed, multiple times and there were no Grey Wardens to kill it until the Blight was finally ended, I'd say that no, they don't have to strike the final blow to start the transfer. Again, this is all pure speculation, as we don't have a lot to base it off of.



If we take Riordan's conversation just before the ritual to heart, however, anyone can kill the Archdemon; a Grey Warden killing it insures that the taint jumps to the Grey Warden, instead of another dark spawn, but this is purely because the Archdemon jumps to the taint. The infant has the taint, and so, with the death of the Archdemon, I'd guess that who kills it doesn't matter, since it would jump to the infant, and end the Blight.

[Greyshaft1]

Morrigan herself states that somethings are worth preserving and her view of the old gods is not that of the Chantry. We do not know if the old gods were good or evil or if Morrigan will try and copy Flemeth's child care policy. Morrigan doesnt cope with love very well but the ring is a sign the relationship meant as much to her a the mirror at least.



My character was erked that she ran away but remeber the Darkspawn can sense the wardens just as the wardens can sense them so you put the child/old god in danger by being with them. Also the old gods were all asleep when corupted by the darkspawn - one that is awake will be much harder if at all possible to taint for rent by an archdemon and may have Morrigan as a protector while it is growing.



This aside on the playthrough which I accepted her offer my characters logic was he was in love with her and also 3 wardens is not good odds against someone else killing an archdemon. So yes he wanted to spend some years with Morrigan before heading down the deep roads due to the taint.

Perhaps secondly Anora shows she can not be trusted and maybe may be as mad as her father was Alister therefore is the logical choise for king making the ritual more an option than not.

[pepe5454]

heh I never really thought of it while playing but if you make Al king wouldn't the god child be an heir to the throne?

[Sialater]

pepe5454 wrote...

heh I never really thought of it while playing but if you make Al king wouldn't the god child be an heir to the throne?

Only if Morrigan pressed the issue, but yes.  Though Alistair makes her promise the child's purpose isn't to cause grief in the succession later on.  Though if his queen/consort/chancellor/mistress is the Grey Warden, the two of you might be tracking her down sooner rather than later.

[Nhomis the Dark]

There is a 4th warden who will propose to sacrifice his life instead of Morrigans if you decide to let him enter the party and discuss the matter...

[Recidiva]

pepe5454 wrote...

heh I never really thought of it while playing but if you make Al king wouldn't the god child be an heir to the throne?

Always an issue if I'm playing female.  Another reason why I can't take the deal since I put him on the throne every time.

Yes, I hate Anora that much.

[Recidiva]

Nhomis the Dark wrote...

There is a 4th warden who will propose to sacrifice his life instead of Morrigans if you decide to let him enter the party and discuss the matter...

Yeah, but I see no point to extending his life.

[Sialater]

Recidiva wrote...

pepe5454 wrote...

heh I never really thought of it while playing but if you make Al king wouldn't the god child be an heir to the throne?

Always an issue if I'm playing female.  Another reason why I can't take the deal since I put him on the throne every time.

Yes, I hate Anora that much.

Me, too.  But I hate Loghain just as much.  Al can remove his head as many times as he wants.

[Leg_lamp]

Sialater wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

pepe5454 wrote...

heh I never really thought of it while playing but if you make Al king wouldn't the god child be an heir to the throne?

Always an issue if I'm playing female.  Another reason why I can't take the deal since I put him on the throne every time.

Yes, I hate Anora that much.

Me, too.  But I hate Loghain just as much.  Al can remove his head as many times as he wants.

As despicable as Loghain was, making him a GW would be a good way to bring peace between Ferelden Government and the Gray Wardens. He deserves to die, but having him do so at the archdemon prevents the death of those worthier to live, and grants him redemption.  This is why I like killing off Loghain, even though Alistair leaves the party.

The thought of a demonbaby heir to the throne, that is being raised by Morrigan gave me the heebie jeebies too. I guess the Old God wouldn't be heir if Alistair wasn't king though.  So maybe the safety-net justification for the Dark Ritual would be less risky if the father was a male PC, GW Loghain, or GW Alistair...but demonbabies are still scarily risky to me. (I still am dying to know what happens with the demonbaby though.)

Would anyone's opinion about the Dark Ritual change, if a different character would be bearing or raising the demonbaby (say if Leliana or the female PC would be doing so?). 

[LYDIA1000]

Clearly many of us feel/felt that the creation of a demon baby was not an option or felt guilty after doing so. However, I was once the child of a demon - the god of war infact, and I wasnt so bad........(BG). Anyway when the demon baby grows up, the baby that fell from the sky in the starmetal will be of a similar age, and something tells me that this baby will be good and have superpowers. So if demon baby turns out evil, superbaby can bring it down.

[Recidiva]

LYDIA1000 wrote...

Clearly many of us feel/felt that the creation of a demon baby was not an option or felt guilty after doing so. However, I was once the child of a demon - the god of war infact, and I wasnt so bad........(BG). Anyway when the demon baby grows up, the baby that fell from the sky in the starmetal will be of a similar age, and something tells me that this baby will be good and have superpowers. So if demon baby turns out evil, superbaby can bring it down.

This is full of win.

[Leg_lamp]

LYDIA1000 wrote...

Clearly many of us feel/felt that the creation of a demon baby was not an option or felt guilty after doing so. However, I was once the child of a demon - the god of war infact, and I wasnt so bad........(BG). Anyway when the demon baby grows up, the baby that fell from the sky in the starmetal will be of a similar age, and something tells me that this baby will be good and have superpowers. So if demon baby turns out evil, superbaby can bring it down.

  Dragon Age: Baby Wars

Modifié par Leg_lamp, 08 janvier 2010 - 10:46 .

[TSamee]

^WANT!



I realise that people who play with female PCs are inclined to find Morrigan both ****y and evil, and thus expect the worst of her- that she will corrupt the child or possess it, and, either way, have vast amounts of power at her disposal. Playing with a male PC, I honestly did feel she'd changed a little during the game. E.g: in lothering, she went nuts when I helped others, but in Orzammar and the Dalish camp, she didn't contest any of my good choices when I thought she would. For example, I took the diplomatic solution and removed the curse by letting Zathrian sacrifice himself, even though the elves were the weak party in this situation. Not a peep out of Morrigan. The only times she objected to my decisions (and then, wordlessly, I just lost approval) were when the quest concerned love (I chose to speak to the elf that Cammen loved, and convince her that Cammen would succeed if she loved him; and told Danyla's husband that she died, but not without expressing her love. Both are examples of people becoming weak due to love for another, and I suspect, having had the "love" convo with Morrigan and seeing how unsure she was about it, that she was uncomfortable with the situations.)



If you build on the fragile assumption that the PC changed her view of things (looking at cirsumstances, it's almost as valid as the assumption that she's just a manipulative ****), you realise that she might deviate from she and Flemeth's initial plan, and bring up the child accordingly.



Still, this is just me being hopeful. I'm cool with her being evil too, but ONLY if we get Baby Wars as an expansion. Somebody, please make a mod XD

[LYDIA1000]

Oh! I can just see the blood dragon booties...

[Recidiva]

TSamee wrote...

^WANT!

I realise that people who play with female PCs are inclined to find Morrigan both ****y and evil, and thus expect the worst of her- that she will corrupt the child or possess it, and, either way, have vast amounts of power at her disposal. Playing with a male PC, I honestly did feel she'd changed a little during the game. E.g: in lothering, she went nuts when I helped others, but in Orzammar and the Dalish camp, she didn't contest any of my good choices when I thought she would. For example, I took the diplomatic solution and removed the curse by letting Zathrian sacrifice himself, even though the elves were the weak party in this situation. Not a peep out of Morrigan. The only times she objected to my decisions (and then, wordlessly, I just lost approval) were when the quest concerned love (I chose to speak to the elf that Cammen loved, and convince her that Cammen would succeed if she loved him; and told Danyla's husband that she died, but not without expressing her love. Both are examples of people becoming weak due to love for another, and I suspect, having had the "love" convo with Morrigan and seeing how unsure she was about it, that she was uncomfortable with the situations.)

If you build on the fragile assumption that the PC changed her view of things (looking at cirsumstances, it's almost as valid as the assumption that she's just a manipulative ****), you realise that she might deviate from she and Flemeth's initial plan, and bring up the child accordingly.

Still, this is just me being hopeful. I'm cool with her being evil too, but ONLY if we get Baby Wars as an expansion. Somebody, please make a mod XD

I actually like Morrigan more as a female than a male.  I sympathize with her, and I think she's an excellent character.

But my male characters experience disgusted shrinkage after she says it's cold in her tent.  I think that's the worst come-on line ever.  Morrigan is the least sexy option for me, just because she's so...very...clumsy and attempting to be manipulative.  It's worth building up the friendship for her to say she loves me like a sister as a female, but not worth all her rebuffs as a male. 

What cracks me up is she says she won't be jealous...and then she is.  I figured she'd stick to her word and she'd be fine with me sleeping around.  No.  She wants me to be NOT in love and exclusive for some inexplicable reason.

It's really not that she's the greatest evil or whatever.  She's just a can of worms that I prefer to not open because I don't need her other than to get out of the Korcari Wilds alive, and she certainly makes no friends along the way.  Unlike Alistair, who knows half the dirt on the nobles in Ferelden and is like "Face" from "The A Team."

She's just too unpredictable and has no loyalties other than to herself and Flemeth's plans. 

[TSamee]

^ Again, all true. You're far too good at this, you do realise that, yes?



Yeah, she is very, very clumsy in her attempts to be sexy and manipulative. I took that as somewhat of an idication that she actually had some feelings for the Warden (early on, her convo regarding the way men view women implies that she's good at being manipulative). Your comment on her not being worth the rebuffs is completely true, and yet she's the choice of most male PCs (most of the time because of the outfit, but anyway...) Bioware have created a female character who I'm not attached to because she's sexy. Now THAT is impressive.



Still, I'm playing the optimist here. If you think she definitely has an agenda (which she definitely does, at least in the beginning), you can always assume she IS the ultimate manipulator... She seems cold and uncaring at first, and yet seems to open up to you while actually revealing nothing about herself. She seems to love you, and you love her back, thinking, like I did, that her awkwardness made it genuine, whereas, in fact, it was all part of the plan. By this stage, as it was with my PC, she'll have you wrapped around her finger, and you, since there's no option to ask about her background once she "loves" you... well, you're now her blind tool. Morrigan wins. You lose. And the world keeps spinning round and round... Until God-baby whoops its ass and makes it stop.

[Recidiva]

TSamee wrote...

^ Again, all true. You're far too good at this, you do realise that, yes?

Yeah, she is very, very clumsy in her attempts to be sexy and manipulative. I took that as somewhat of an idication that she actually had some feelings for the Warden (early on, her convo regarding the way men view women implies that she's good at being manipulative). Your comment on her not being worth the rebuffs is completely true, and yet she's the choice of most male PCs (most of the time because of the outfit, but anyway...) Bioware have created a female character who I'm not attached to because she's sexy. Now THAT is impressive.

Still, I'm playing the optimist here. If you think she definitely has an agenda (which she definitely does, at least in the beginning), you can always assume she IS the ultimate manipulator... She seems cold and uncaring at first, and yet seems to open up to you while actually revealing nothing about herself. She seems to love you, and you love her back, thinking, like I did, that her awkwardness made it genuine, whereas, in fact, it was all part of the plan. By this stage, as it was with my PC, she'll have you wrapped around her finger, and you, since there's no option to ask about her background once she "loves" you... well, you're now her blind tool. Morrigan wins. You lose. And the world keeps spinning round and round... Until God-baby whoops its ass and makes it stop.

I have much more respect for the standards of men and the intelligence of men than Morrigan does.  I'd feel just as irritated by a male who basically said that women were dumb and easily manipulated. Sure, SOME of them.

Morrigan is good at manipulating people that are unsophisticated.  I'm not interested in being manipulated, nor am I unsophisticated.  She's actually endearing as a friend for that reason, but not as a lover.  I can see why you might go your way and I might have also if I hadn't chosen an "evil" sort of selfish character to romance her, who got tired of her crap very soon.  It's a lot more of a "little girl lost" thing.

I can see how it's endearing if you're a good character.  But that's the conflict.  She really does rebuff you pretty hard and says flat out that sentimentality and love are myths and for the foolish.  Combine that I think she's frighteningly inexperienced and naive yet she thinks she's the Queen of Sheba, I just think she's too immature to sleep with.

I can find her endearing as a friend, but I just can't get there as a lover.  She's far too awkward and arrogant wtihout any reason to back it up as a person.

But as a male I can go for Leliana and have ...even once as a female.  She's just much more charming and has so much more to offer in terms of a romantic relationship.

Morrigan just isn't my type.  It doesn't mean I'm jealous or irritated or anything other than...it just doesn't make any sense to get romantically involved with someone who doesn't believe in romance and believes it's all a trick she's making you fall for.

[TSamee]

True, again. But, even before the legions of topics appeared on the forums raving about her and how she broke people's heartsblahblahblah, most of us had already entered the relationship. Even you, Recidiva (though I guess it was more out of lack of anything else to do) Why? Is it that she's vulnerable later on? Or that her "armour" actually shows more of her than her underclothes do? Or are we all instinctively drawn to the untrustworthy, dark-haired woman?



The fact that so many of us (the dumb ones, admittedly. This is my personal opinion, even though I am one of these people) have stuck with her despite her arrogance; despite the fact that she's trying to use you; despite the fact that she spends her time either being a "little lost girl" or pretending to be an ice-cold badass; and this is proof that someone at Bioware is very, very good at their job indeed.



I've decided to just keep my views on her as they are at the moment, but expect the worst, and then change them accordingly when new information becomes available, thorugh Return to Ostagar, the expansion, etc. Frankly, I know far too little to express any of the faith in her as a person that I've shown in my posts. How can I decide if a person's changed for the better when I can't even trust that person to truly love my PC at all?

[Recidiva]

TSamee wrote...

True, again. But, even before the legions of topics appeared on the forums raving about her and how she broke people's heartsblahblahblah, most of us had already entered the relationship. Even you, Recidiva (though I guess it was more out of lack of anything else to do) Why? Is it that she's vulnerable later on? Or that her "armour" actually shows more of her than her underclothes do? Or are we all instinctively drawn to the untrustworthy, dark-haired woman?

The fact that so many of us (the dumb ones, admittedly. This is my personal opinion, even though I am one of these people) have stuck with her despite her arrogance; despite the fact that she's trying to use you; despite the fact that she spends her time either being a "little lost girl" or pretending to be an ice-cold badass; and this is proof that someone at Bioware is very, very good at their job indeed.

I've decided to just keep my views on her as they are at the moment, but expect the worst, and then change them accordingly when new information becomes available, thorugh Return to Ostagar, the expansion, etc. Frankly, I know far too little to express any of the faith in her as a person that I've shown in my posts. How can I decide if a person's changed for the better when I can't even trust that person to truly love my PC at all?

My first game I left her in camp and didn't trust her and didn't even listen to her deal.  

I do think she loves the PC and is torn.  That's pretty clear in the writing, I can see it.  It's just that her ambitions trump the love, it's not that it isn't there.

I only got involved 'cause of the achievement.   Same with Zevran. 

I've played through the full romance line with Leliana and Alistair a few times because I just genuinely like hanging out with them because they're inherently more of a romantic match for me than the others, who just...irk me somewhere along the line and make it something like "recruiting Loghain" for the ending achievement.  Not something I want to repeat, and not something appealing to me as a person.

She's just not even approaching my type.  She's definitely lots of people's type.  And she's certainly well written and entertaining.  

[TSamee]

To each man his own... ummm... *gay-ness*



Yeah, while I haven't been involved with Alistair, I can honestly say that I like him more as a friend and as a person than Morrigan. It's close, but you actually know where you are with Alistair, and that scores him some major points.



In regard to Morrigan, I'm going to say one thing, and I've repeated it before, so feel no compulsion to comment: Yes, her feelings were overshadowed by her ambition in the end. But time can change views, and, while she may not love the Warden anymore (I'm all good with that), I'm hoping that the things your PC showed her (provided you were playing the "good" Warden) influence her future plans, particularly in regard to the child. She might find that she's not so strong in her convictions anymore.



But as I said, I've mentioned this God knows how many times, so please don't comment on it. Just my two cents (yet again).

[Elessara]

Just as an aside ... in BG you weren't the child of the god of war ... you were the child of the god of murder. The first time I played that game I had no clue. My class? Paladin. Oh the delicious irony.



Honestly the biggest problem with the child for me is that it is a complete unknown. Will it be good or evil? You really don't know. The archdemons are supposed to be highly intelligent and the only reason they lead the darkspawn is because they have been corrupted. What would it do in a human body? Would it remember anything? Would it have godlike powers? It didn't have godlike powers as the Archdemon though or we wouldn't have won to begin with.



On the playthrough where I accepted her ritual I did it for 2 reasons. One, my character was weak. She's human, she's in love with Alistair. Sure Riordan said he would make the killing blow but what if he dies before he can do that? Alistair has already lost the only person he ever thought cared for him. Could she really leave him to rule Ferelden alone? Can she sacrifice Alistair? She herself has also lost a great deal. So ... a moment of weakness. Which will probably come back to bite her on the ass. She may very well regret this decision more than any other. But she's human. And she's not a paladin.



The other reason was the safety net. They're going into a large battle against overwhelming odds. What are the chances that all three wardens will survive to actually kill the archdemon? She's also trying to rationlize her decision to agree to Morrigan's plan. My char isn't a bad person .. she's just not a very good warden.

[TSamee]

Elessara wrote...

Just as an aside ... in BG you weren't the child of the god of war ... you were the child of the god of murder. The first time I played that game I had no clue. My class? Paladin. Oh the delicious irony.

Honestly the biggest problem with the child for me is that it is a complete unknown. Will it be good or evil? You really don't know. The archdemons are supposed to be highly intelligent and the only reason they lead the darkspawn is because they have been corrupted. What would it do in a human body? Would it remember anything? Would it have godlike powers? It didn't have godlike powers as the Archdemon though or we wouldn't have won to begin with.

On the playthrough where I accepted her ritual I did it for 2 reasons. One, my character was weak. She's human, she's in love with Alistair. Sure Riordan said he would make the killing blow but what if he dies before he can do that? Alistair has already lost the only person he ever thought cared for him. Could she really leave him to rule Ferelden alone? Can she sacrifice Alistair? She herself has also lost a great deal. So ... a moment of weakness. Which will probably come back to bite her on the ass. She may very well regret this decision more than any other. But she's human. And she's not a paladin.

The other reason was the safety net. They're going into a large battle against overwhelming odds. What are the chances that all three wardens will survive to actually kill the archdemon? She's also trying to rationlize her decision to agree to Morrigan's plan. My char isn't a bad person .. she's just not a very good warden.

I'd love to say that, like you, I'd done it purely when looking at it from a detached, logical standpoint, but I wasn't. Nice to know intelligent people exist who actually weigh up the consequences before fathering a demon :happy: