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[tmp7704]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

All the stuff they allowed - no encouraged! - in Orleasian controlled Ferelden. It goes against all of their stated beliefs from the codex entries....

Well, seeing how the Chantry is "official" religious organization of Orlais and its seat of power is in Orlais capital city this is hardly a suprise. They probably see it as normal state of things -- after all Orlais is based on serfdom and you have nice things there like Chevaliers and their priviledges. You can have a talk with Leliana to get a glimpse of that mindset.

[SarEnyaDor]

Maria Caliban wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

All the stuff they allowed - no encouraged! - in Orleasian controlled Ferelden. It goes against all of their stated beliefs from the codex entries....

What stated beliefs are you refering to?

My husband is on the game, and he doesn't have those codex entries. There are some entries about the Chant of Light where it lists the Maker's/Andraste's commandments about how people should be treated, says not to steal, not to harm others, treat all people with dignity - you know rubbishy stuff that obviously doesn't apply to non-humans! LOL

Unless someone else wants to find the entries and post them, I'll have to do it later.

[Bullets McDeath]

The inability to duel the Revered Mother to the death after the Loghain fight was, IMHO, the biggest let-down/plothole/raping of my childhood in Dragon Age Origins. I spent the whole game wanting to punch her in the mouth and was denied at every good oppurtunity. Thank god for Mods...

[Squiggles1334]

robertthebard wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Bob Sideshow wrote...

Hi all,

IMHO the chantry is an abomination in itself. They consider their duty is to spread their faith to wherever by all means. Conversion by the sword in its purest form. And at the same time admitting more or less that their Maker may well have abandoned the mankind for past sins.
The social work they do for humans(not others) does not balance this up.

Yeah, YEAH. What a terrible organization that does nothing but keep demihumans and mages under the crushing thumb of oppression and allow occupying Orlesians to rape and torture Fereldans and

I sincerely hope that in future addittions to DA, at least elf and dwarf players will get the chance to crush the chantry with liberal use of torture, rape and foul language while at it anyway.

Regards, Bob Sideshow

... wait, what?

Actually, you forgot enslaving warriors to use as a personal army through Lyrium addiction.

But the Lyrium makes the templar skills more effective, the Chantry told me so it must be true! :innocent:

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Chantry has far more power than you think. Similar to the Church in medieval times. A pope could threaten execommunication, even perform it, on a king that wasn't getting with the program, and kings were known to ride like mad on horseback to beg forgiveness and kiss the pope's feet to avoid such a fate. Excommunication of a ruler, in the eyes of neighboring powers, is like excommunicating the entire nation. And thus, making that country and it's throne fair game to "rechristinize/re-chatritize". Or, it seriously weakens the legitimacy of that person's throne, making plots to usrup the excommunicated one easy as cake.



Thus, when you have an organization as powerful as the Chantry, whose power lies more in its hold on the spiritual life of the majority of the population, it is in the best interest of said ruler to keep on the good side of said religous body. The word of the Chantry carries much weight, and if the Chantry was a truly philanthropic organization, it would direct it's power to sway opinion towards more beneficial leadership, peace, and improving the lot of many. But the Chantry did not.



One reason might be, as in the middle ages, it was the ignorance, poverty, and hopelessness of the masses that fed the Church. Promises of paradise in the afterlife for being a good, obiedient drone in this one kept people in their place, and kept them dependant upon religion for solace in their generally dirty, miserably lives. If people were able to experience happieness and the hope of a better future on their own merits, they might not lean so heavily on, and need religion. And the Chantry itself would shrink.



We see this in the modern day world, where generally, countries with the heaviest poverty and desperation are also the most religious, where as in countries that enjoy a higher standard of living, better education and opportunity, religous believe is no where near as prevailent.

[SarEnyaDor]

Alright - the codex entry is called "The Commandments of the Maker"


These truths the Maker has revealed to me:

As there is but one world,
One life, one death, there is
But one god, and he is our Maker.
They are sinners, who have given their love
To false gods.

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.

Those who bear false witness
And work to decieve others, know this:
There is but one Truth.
All things are known to the Maker
And He shall judge their lies.

All things in this world are finite.
What one man gains, another has lost.
Those that steal from their brothers and sisters
Do harm to their livelihood and to their peace of mind.
Our Maker sees this with a heavy heart.

~ Transfigurations 1:1-5

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 07 janvier 2010 - 10:09 .

[SarEnyaDor]

So, just from this brief into into the Chantry's teachings - there is no WAY they should have allowed Orlais to conquer and control, and then to subjugate the Fereldens they way that they did. And what kind of Revered Mother who believed what she preached could go along with that, let alone smirk about it??



They all just better hope that Tevinter Statue is wrong, because if the Maker does ever come home to light the hearth fires, I think the Chantry is going to get burned.

[eschilde]

I don't know, the Chant isn't very specific and in fact seems to endorse slavery. It also leaves judgment to the Maker. This is pretty much like telling someone that xyz is wrong but there's no hell.

[Squiggles1334]

How does it actually endorse slavery? It only mentions that people who happen to be slaves are also made and valued by the Maker.

[SarEnyaDor]

I don't think it endorses slavery at all. I thought it meant to treat even the lowliest as you would the highest, no man should be harmed, all men are equal in the eyes of the Maker type thing.

[Squiggles1334]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I don't think it endorses slavery at all. I thought it meant to treat even the lowliest as you would the highest, no man should be harmed, all men are equal in the eyes of the Maker type thing.

Yeah, that's how I see it too.

[eschilde]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

How does it actually endorse slavery? It only mentions that people who happen to be slaves are also made and valued by the Maker.

Well, the fact that it mentions slaves at all is pretty much an endorsement. If the Chant was about equality it would say so, not some half assed whatever. I'm reading the Chant and thinking it's not about social equality, it's about acting against someone else without provocation.

The fact that things like this are mentioned can be interpreted as, the status quo is okay. Naturally that depends on the era and who is doing the interpreting, but it's pretty much saying some people are born slaves and that's what they are. 

Well, I should rephrase, it's not exactly an endorsement, it's more like ... I'm not sure there's a word for it, but something like, "This is how things are," implying that it's okay to leave them like that.

Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.

See, what this basically says is, there is a 'least' of the Maker's children at all. It's kind of weird, actually, to see this, since Andraste was born a slave and was all about.. slave revolts, or something, idk.  You'd think it'd be more akin to a declaration of emancipation or some such.

Edit: right. I was trying to make the point that it would be easy to look at this and say, "Okay, the Maker makes some people kings and some people slaves," and follow that up with, "It's okay to have kings and slaves."

Modifié par eschilde, 07 janvier 2010 - 10:42 .

[SarEnyaDor]

So.. what did Ferelden do to provoke Orlais -capital of the Chantry - into coming in and de-throning the sitting king, torturing the nobles, raping the women etc?

[eschilde]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

So.. what did Ferelden do to provoke Orlais -capital of the Chantry - into coming in and de-throning the sitting king, torturing the nobles, raping the women etc?

Well, that's the problem of social classes. In Orlais people who are chevaliers are afforded rights, which they believe those people wholeheartedly deserve. (I'm basing this pretty much entirely off of what that chick who sells soap in Denerim tells you.) People who are chevaliers deserve to do x, y and z. Raping a woman isn't really rape, it's their right to do whatever and the woman doesn't have any right to resist, so they're not doing anything 'wrong'. Does that make sense? Not to someone in Fereldan, but to someone in Orlais, sure, that's just how things are.

As for what Fereldan did, I have no idea. I don't know why they went to war in the first place.

[Squiggles1334]

To be fair, the Chant of Light is a tome that takes several weeks to complete, so who knows what else is in there regarding the subject of slavery?



Interestingly enough, the canticle of Shartan 10:1 was retconned as heretical and removed:

At Shartan’s word, the sky

Grew black with arrows.

At Our Lady’s, ten thousand swords

Rang from their sheaths,

A great hymn rose over Valarian Fields gladly proclaiming:

Those who had been slaves were now free.

It's possible some of the original Chantry teachings included specifics about egalitarian societal structure but got tampered with later by Chantry leadership.

[SarEnyaDor]

Oh, I know about what they do in Orlais and think is okay (also from the chick in the market) - but I'm saying that that is BS of the most major sort - how can they proclaim to believe in the Maker and follow his laws and behave that way?

[eschilde]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Oh, I know about what they do in Orlais and think is okay (also from the chick in the market) - but I'm saying that that is BS of the most major sort - how can they proclaim to believe in the Maker and follow his laws and behave that way?

That's my point, some of them probably think they are. There are loopholes in the Chant which can be left open to interpretation. If you think it's your right to have your way with a woman, if her brother hits you for it, he's the one who will be punished by the Maker.

[Bhatair]

They just have to spread the chant... I don't remember the rule that anyone had to follow it.



*Cue evil laughter*

[bobsmyuncle]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Oh, I know about what they do in Orlais and think is okay (also from the chick in the market) - but I'm saying that that is BS of the most major sort - how can they proclaim to believe in the Maker and follow his laws and behave that way?

Speaking as a Christian, the same way a person can read the Bible and go to church but ignore poverty, make judgments on others, or carry a grudge. It depends on a lot of things, like self-perception, self-justification, how seriously you take your religion, etc.

Add to the fact that censorship exists in this setting (editing the parts about Shartan, or that speculative book about Andraste that was saved from a fire), it's not hard to believe that some people in the Chantry are altering the dogma to suit their own views or ambitions. Maybe they are following what they believe to be the Maker's laws, because all the parts about being good people are hushed up in favor of "mages suck."

[SarEnyaDor]

oh yeah - forgot the "mages suck" trumps all thing - which is also a distortion from their own writings.



*grumbles*



I'm with Alistair, I believe in the Maker, but the Chantry can kiss my *currently dwarven despite the site's refusal to upload info* arse.



And these books rock, by the way. I heartily recommend them to anyone who needs more anger in their lives.

[robertthebard]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

oh yeah - forgot the "mages suck" trumps all thing - which is also a distortion from their own writings.

*grumbles*

I'm with Alistair, I believe in the Maker, but the Chantry can kiss my *currently dwarven despite the site's refusal to upload info* arse.

And these books rock, by the way. I heartily recommend them to anyone who needs more anger in their lives.

I probably better not read them then.

[eschilde]

Your dwarf believes in the Maker?

[Herr Uhl]

eschilde wrote...

Your dwarf believes in the Maker?

Brother Burkel is not alone!

[SarEnyaDor]

Lelianna can be *very* persuasive....

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Oh, I know about what they do in Orlais and think is okay (also from the chick in the market) - but I'm saying that that is BS of the most major sort - how can they proclaim to believe in the Maker and follow his laws and behave that way?

The same way the Church, supposedly following the teachings of Jesus, waged wars of submission, endorsed slavery and mass murder, and supported tyrants and lunatics throught history.

Where there's a will, theres a way, and people can find the most warped interpretations in holy scriptures to justify the most unholy, barbaric behaviors. Not to mention, convient adding, subtracting, and interpreting of scripture over the eons to endores the fashionable mood or need of the moment.

My guess is, if Andraste were live, she would be quite horrified at the religion created in her name, judging by the lore I've collected on her thus far. Like the Church, the early disciples of Andraste were a very different breed from what we have today.