298 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The protheans managed to hide Ilos from the Reapers. If they could hide that world and the Conduit for 50,000 years, other races could too with the Crucible and it's plans. You can't say that it's impossible to hide something, or the plans for something, or hide away somewhere from the Reapers, when Ilos is proof of otherwise.

That doestn make sense. This cycle was the only cycle that didnt get the relays locked down, because the protheans were able to rework the keepers after the fact; they didnt know the citadel was a trap. Them having the conduit was the only reason they could could mess with it. Vigil said on Illos that their(reapers) plans worked perfectly until their cycle, they were the 1st to throw the reapers off.  So with that knowledge it doesnt make any sense that something like the crucbile could be passed down, since before this cycle the taking over of the citadel and turning off the relays worked everyother time, which means they didnt know the citadel was a trap and didnt know there was a problem that needed fixing, up until the protheans.

They couldn't have created blueprints for a problem they didnt know was a problem until after the fact. It was only because of the protheans we didnt get punk'd as well. As for your ideas about the citadel and the relays, it doesnt matter in what order was way, the citadel is the master controller for the whole relay system.

Turning off the relays has absolutly nothing to do with that.
The fact that Ilos was hidden from them had absoultly nothing to do what-so-ever with the locking of the Relay Network. It's because the protheans deleted the information regarding any mention of Ilos from their records during the attack on the Citidel (confirmed by Vigil). That's the point: That a race was able to hide information and loactions from the Reapers. The Leviathans hid themselves and their tech from the Reapers pretty well. The protheans hid Ilos from their purge.
None of that required anything to do with the locking of the Relays, and nither does hiding the Crucible plans.
As for it's constrcution, the Leviathans made a point of saying that not every race attempted to build it.

And you assume it was never at the stage that it got to in this cycle. For all we know, it was completed several times, but just never used, thanks to the network being cut.
It may have been fully built multiple times, and improved by each builder, assumed as incomplete because they "lacked the Catalyst,"  and only ever not used becasue they couldn't get to the Citidel. The cutting of the Relay network could be the only reason the Reapers persisted this long. But it doesn't prevent them from hiding data in the slightest, as proven by Ilos.

Your response makes no sense with what I posted.  Your response has nothing to do with what I said.  Nobody from each cycle knew the citadel was a trap until it was to late. This was the 1st cycle where the plan didnt work, so how would the create something when they didnt know there was a problem?  You really are not making sense.  My only point about the citadel being the contro lunit is, everyone was cut off from each other and the relays didnt work.  

The ONLY reason the protheans were able to mess with the keepers is because they were researching relay tech and created a poor mans version that let them go to the citadel.  Again how could anyone create a machine for a problem nobody understood or knew about, until it was to late?

You are the one that said the locking of the Relays had to do with the Crucilbe data being hidden (passed on) when it didn't.

As for each cycle knowing only when it was too late?
Your proof of that is.....?
Seriously, there is nothing that says that the races did or didn't know about the Reapers right before their arrival. Several other races could have done what the protheans did and learned about the Reapers early. A race could have learned ahead of time, started work on the Crucible, but failed to deploy it since the Citadel was inacessable to them. Then passed on the information.

It's not an overly complicated question with an inpossible answer. A single race got lucky, saw what would happen before it did, and invented the Crucible to stop it. Simple as that.

And P.S. the Conduit's creation had nothing to do with the Reapers. They just wanted to replicate the Relays so that they could make their own. Building the Conduit and linking it to the Citidel was again, a twist of fate. Luck. Not knowing in advance. That's all there is to it.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 janvier 2013 - 09:05 .

[elitecom]

silverexile17s wrote...
As for each cycle knowing only when it was too late?
Your proof of that is.....?
Seriously, there is nothing that says that the races did or didn't know about the Reapers right before their arrival. Several other races could have done what the protheans did and learned about the Reapers early. A race could have learned ahead of time, started work on the Crucible, but failed to deploy it since the Citadel was inacessable to them. Then passed on the information.

It's not an overly complicated question with an inpossible answer. A single race got lucky, saw what would happen before it did, and invented the Crucible to stop it. Simple as that.

That's a lot of what ifs and maybes, but let's have a look at it from a perspective with things which we do know.

First I have to ask you, from where would any race learn about the Reapers before their arrival? The Reapers are very thorough in their reaping, carefully making sure that all traces of technology or signs of the Reapers themselves are completely erased. Shepard only learned about the Reapers in advance because of the Protheans's last actions, namely to prevent Sovereign from remotely open the Citadel Relay, which forced Sovereign to operate more in the open than it had ever done before. The Protheans didn't learn about the Reapers early either, they as everyone before them were caught completely by surprise.

Since Vigil never mentioned the Crucible, we can safely assume that it didn't know about it and that as a result Ilos didn't know about it. This would mean that the Crucible was discovered sometime after the Reapers attack. The problem is that a Prothean IA on Thessia knew about the Crucible and the Crucible was discovered by Shepard on Mars. What's the problem with this you may ask? The problem is that when the Reapers attacked they seized control over the Relay network, crippling Prothean communications and transportation, so how could information about the Crucible spread around like that, from Thessia to Mars without the Mass Relays?

Modifié par elitecom, 07 janvier 2013 - 09:38 .

[Maxster_]

Meltemph wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...


That doestn make sense. This cycle was the only cycle that didnt get the relays locked down, because the protheans were able to rework the keepers after the fact; they didnt know the citadel was a trap. Them having the conduit was the only reason they could could mess with it. Vigil said on Illos that their(reapers) plans worked perfectly until their cycle, they were the 1st to throw the reapers off.  So with that knowledge it doesnt make any sense that something like the crucbile could be passed down, since before this cycle the taking over of the citadel and turning off the relays worked everyother time, which means they didnt know the citadel was a trap and didnt know there was a problem that needed fixing, up until the protheans.

They couldn't have created blueprints for a problem they didnt know was a problem until after the fact. It was only because of the protheans we didnt get punk'd as well. As for your ideas about the citadel and the relays, it doesnt matter in what order was way, the citadel is the master controller for the whole relay system.

Turning off the relays has absolutly nothing to do with that.
The fact that Ilos was hidden from them had absoultly nothing to do what-so-ever with the locking of the Relay Network. It's because the protheans deleted the information regarding any mention of Ilos from their records during the attack on the Citidel (confirmed by Vigil). That's the point: That a race was able to hide information and loactions from the Reapers. The Leviathans hid themselves and their tech from the Reapers pretty well. The protheans hid Ilos from their purge.
None of that required anything to do with the locking of the Relays, and nither does hiding the Crucible plans.
As for it's constrcution, the Leviathans made a point of saying that not every race attempted to build it.

And you assume it was never at the stage that it got to in this cycle. For all we know, it was completed several times, but just never used, thanks to the network being cut.
It may have been fully built multiple times, and improved by each builder, assumed as incomplete because they "lacked the Catalyst,"  and only ever not used becasue they couldn't get to the Citidel. The cutting of the Relay network could be the only reason the Reapers persisted this long. But it doesn't prevent them from hiding data in the slightest, as proven by Ilos.

Your response makes no sense with what I posted.  Your response has nothing to do with what I said.  Nobody from each cycle knew the citadel was a trap until it was to late. This was the 1st cycle where the plan didnt work, so how would the create something when they didnt know there was a problem?  You really are not making sense.  My only point about the citadel being the contro lunit is, everyone was cut off from each other and the relays didnt work.  

The ONLY reason the protheans were able to mess with the keepers is because they were researching relay tech and created a poor mans version that let them go to the citadel.  Again how could anyone create a machine for a problem nobody understood or knew about, until it was to late?

Now you see

[Meltemph]

As for each cycle knowing only when it was too late?
Your proof of that is.....?
Seriously, there is nothing that says that the races did or didn't know about the Reapers right before their arrival. Several other races could have done what the protheans did and learned about the Reapers early. A race could have learned ahead of time, started work on the Crucible, but failed to deploy it since the Citadel was inacessable to them. Then passed on the information.

Wat? http://youtu.be/CqoKW6eutjQ?t=3m

They didn't know about the citadel before it was to late as well. The only reason it didn't work this time was luck that the conduit went to the citadel and they were able to modify the keepers because of this. That is all the proof needed. Once the reapers come through this way everything is cut off.

Your post is grasping at any straw you can find to cling to the idea that the story in ME3 was well put together. ME3 made the plot of the reapers nonsensical.

Modifié par Meltemph, 07 janvier 2013 - 11:07 .

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...


That doestn make sense. This cycle was the only cycle that didnt get the relays locked down, because the protheans were able to rework the keepers after the fact; they didnt know the citadel was a trap. Them having the conduit was the only reason they could could mess with it. Vigil said on Illos that their(reapers) plans worked perfectly until their cycle, they were the 1st to throw the reapers off.  So with that knowledge it doesnt make any sense that something like the crucbile could be passed down, since before this cycle the taking over of the citadel and turning off the relays worked everyother time, which means they didnt know the citadel was a trap and didnt know there was a problem that needed fixing, up until the protheans.

They couldn't have created blueprints for a problem they didnt know was a problem until after the fact. It was only because of the protheans we didnt get punk'd as well. As for your ideas about the citadel and the relays, it doesnt matter in what order was way, the citadel is the master controller for the whole relay system.

Turning off the relays has absolutly nothing to do with that.
The fact that Ilos was hidden from them had absoultly nothing to do what-so-ever with the locking of the Relay Network. It's because the protheans deleted the information regarding any mention of Ilos from their records during the attack on the Citidel (confirmed by Vigil). That's the point: That a race was able to hide information and loactions from the Reapers. The Leviathans hid themselves and their tech from the Reapers pretty well. The protheans hid Ilos from their purge.
None of that required anything to do with the locking of the Relays, and nither does hiding the Crucible plans.
As for it's constrcution, the Leviathans made a point of saying that not every race attempted to build it.

And you assume it was never at the stage that it got to in this cycle. For all we know, it was completed several times, but just never used, thanks to the network being cut.
It may have been fully built multiple times, and improved by each builder, assumed as incomplete because they "lacked the Catalyst,"  and only ever not used becasue they couldn't get to the Citidel. The cutting of the Relay network could be the only reason the Reapers persisted this long. But it doesn't prevent them from hiding data in the slightest, as proven by Ilos.

Your response makes no sense with what I posted.  Your response has nothing to do with what I said.  Nobody from each cycle knew the citadel was a trap until it was to late. This was the 1st cycle where the plan didnt work, so how would the create something when they didnt know there was a problem?  You really are not making sense.  My only point about the citadel being the contro lunit is, everyone was cut off from each other and the relays didnt work.  

The ONLY reason the protheans were able to mess with the keepers is because they were researching relay tech and created a poor mans version that let them go to the citadel.  Again how could anyone create a machine for a problem nobody understood or knew about, until it was to late?

Now you see

He's the one that said the Locking of the Relays was only done by the protheans, and that it somehow had something to do with the Crucible constrcution not making sense on how other races lerned about it and so on.
He's the one that didn't make sense.
Besides, comenting on someone else's debate, when you couldn't even refute the points posted against you is just pathetic.
Either respond to the topic with meaningfull opinions, backed with some form of cooberating lore, or just get lost.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:06 .

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

As for each cycle knowing only when it was too late?
Your proof of that is.....?
Seriously, there is nothing that says that the races did or didn't know about the Reapers right before their arrival. Several other races could have done what the protheans did and learned about the Reapers early. A race could have learned ahead of time, started work on the Crucible, but failed to deploy it since the Citadel was inacessable to them. Then passed on the information.

Wat? http://youtu.be/CqoKW6eutjQ?t=3m

They didn't know about the citadel before it was to late as well. The only reason it didn't work this time was luck that the conduit went to the citadel and they were able to modify the keepers because of this. That is all the proof needed. Once the reapers come through this way everything is cut off.

Your post is grasping at any straw you can find to cling to the idea that the story in ME3 was well put together. ME3 made the plot of the reapers nonsensical.

Sorry, but your dead wrong according to what Javik says after you recrut him in ME3. He says that information left by the Innusannon told them of a race of synthetics that would wipe them out. That was the whole reason the protheans worked to build an empire.

There is even refrence to this on the ME wiki, under the prothean article:
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Prothean

It proves that the protheans discovered ahead of time that the Reapers were coming. To qoute the article:

"At some point the Protheans learned of the existence of the Reapers and their cycles of galactic destruction through studying the ruins of other extinguished civilizations. Several countermeasures were devised, including the Crucible, which was based on designs left behind by previous civilizations. In the event that the Reapers prevailed, the Protheans also began extensive observation of primitive species such as the asari, hanar, humans, quarians, salarians, and turians; it was hoped that some Protheans would survive the Reapers' purge and go on to unite these species to create a new empire."

Note the bolded.

If the protheans could do it, other races could have learned of the Reapers existance prior to the invasion as well. Henceforth, the reasoning that one race did just that, and invented the Crucible, but were wiped out before ever being able to use it, is not as unreasonable as you make yourself think.

The race that invented the Crucible learnd ahead of time of what was coming, just as the protheans did, and took precautions, as they did. They invented the original design for the Crucible, but the invasion took place before it could be used.
This isn't that hard to understand. It's not grasping at straws. It's called "reasoning."

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:11 .

[silverexile17s]

elitecom wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
As for each cycle knowing only when it was too late?
Your proof of that is.....?
Seriously, there is nothing that says that the races did or didn't know about the Reapers right before their arrival. Several other races could have done what the protheans did and learned about the Reapers early. A race could have learned ahead of time, started work on the Crucible, but failed to deploy it since the Citadel was inacessable to them. Then passed on the information.

It's not an overly complicated question with an inpossible answer. A single race got lucky, saw what would happen before it did, and invented the Crucible to stop it. Simple as that.

That's a lot of what ifs and maybes, but let's have a look at it from a perspective with things which we do know.

First I have to ask you, from where would any race learn about the Reapers before their arrival? The Reapers are very thorough in their reaping, carefully making sure that all traces of technology or signs of the Reapers themselves are completely erased. Shepard only learned about the Reapers in advance because of the Protheans's last actions, namely to prevent Sovereign from remotely open the Citadel Relay, which forced Sovereign to operate more in the open than it had ever done before. The Protheans didn't learn about the Reapers early either, they as everyone before them were caught completely by surprise.

Since Vigil never mentioned the Crucible, we can safely assume that it didn't know about it and that as a result Ilos didn't know about it. This would mean that the Crucible was discovered sometime after the Reapers attack. The problem is that a Prothean IA on Thessia knew about the Crucible and the Crucible was discovered by Shepard on Mars. What's the problem with this you may ask? The problem is that when the Reapers attacked they seized control over the Relay network, crippling Prothean communications and transportation, so how could information about the Crucible spread around like that, from Thessia to Mars without the Mass Relays?

Javik himself says that the protheans learned ahead of time about the Reaper's arrival. If they did it, it is concevible that others out of the thousands of cycles must have too.
I just posted a responce to all that against someone else, you can read that.

Also, I remind you that Ilos was as much a rumor as the Crucible, therefore, none had nay solid proof of the other. It's also possible that Vigil was an isolated system, with limited information on the subject. Not to mention that Vigil was cut off the moment the Reapers attacked, and was in stasis mode for the hundreds of years that the war persisted. Therefore, Vigil may have been totally unaware of the Crucible becasue it was cut from the info network the split-second the Reapers invaded. Also, it could not have known because it may have been  a compartmentilized project, like Ilos itself was.
Therefore, just because Vigil didin't mention the Crucible, does not in any way indicate when the Crucible project was started.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:19 .

[Meltemph]

Sorry, but your dead wrong according to what Javik says right after you recrut him in ME3. He says that information left by the Innusannon told them of a race of synthetics that would wipe them out. That was the whole reason the protheans worked to build an empire.

That is proving the point that ME3 and by extension the crucible was an asspull. they didnt know about the threat of the reapers until it was to late in 1 game, and then in the next, they knew about the problem for a long time(yet didn't have any clue that the Citadel was a trap).

You are using ME3 to make sense of ME3 but that doesn't work when you compare it to the trilogy as a whole. The crucible plot was a incoherent plot point that relied completely on ignoring past information given in previous games.

The crucible is what gave rise to all these inconsistencies with the reaper arc(which is what this whole discussion is about). How could they have designed a weapon based on a problem they didnt know was a problem(the citadel)?

The crucible is a power source(a battery) a battery for what? The Catalyst(the citadel), the problem with that thought is: nobody knew that the citadel was a trap until it was taken away from them, so the idea of creating plans for a problem nobody knew existed before it was to late, is just silly.

None of your responses have dealt specifically with that problem, and just completely glosses over it. It wasnt until the keepers were messed with that the signal no longer worked, that is a pretty important detail for the crucible and the ME3 reaper arc as a whole.

Modifié par Meltemph, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:21 .

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

Sorry, but your dead wrong according to what Javik says right after you recrut him in ME3. He says that information left by the Innusannon told them of a race of synthetics that would wipe them out. That was the whole reason the protheans worked to build an empire.

That is proving the point that ME3 and by extension the crucible was an asspull. they didnt know about the threat of the reapers until it was to late in 1 game, and then in the next, they knew about the problem for a long time(yet didn't have any clue that the Citadel was a trap).

You are using ME3 to make sense of ME3 but that doesn't work when you compare it to the trilogy as a whole. The crucible plot was a incoherent plot point that relied completely on ignoring past information given in previous games.

The crucible is what gave rise to all these inconsistencies with the reaper arc(which is what this whole discussion is about). How could they have designed weapon based on a problem they didnt know was a problem(the citadel).

The crucible is a power source(a battery) a battery for what? The Catalyst(the citadel), the problem with that thought it, nobody knew that the citadel was a trap until it was taken away from them, so the idea of creating plans for a problem nobody knew existed before it was to late is just silly.

None of your responses have dealt specifically with that problem, and just completely glosses over it. It wasnt until the keepers were messed with that the signal no longer worked, that is a pretty important detail for the crucible and the ME3 reaper arc as a whole.

Ugh, wrong.
Since Vigil was both damaged with corrupted memory, and was an isolated system with no knolodge of anything besides the project it was built from, (and the indicitations that Vigil was itself built after the invasion), I don't place as much faith in it's words, compaired to the account of someone that actually went through the war firsthand. So nothing Vigil says can prove that the Protheans's didn't know about the Reapers in advance, as it was obvious that Ilos was quite isolated from current events even before the invasion, being a secret research base and such.

Therefore, what Vigil says doesn't contridict what Javik says in the slightest. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Besides, the Crucible was part of the original  Dark Energy theroy that Drew wrote. It uses Dark Energy emmissions to fire and interface with the Citidel. The Crucible was part of the original plot too. So it really wasn't an asspull, as it a concept that had been part of the plot since Drew's first drafts. The only change was from Dark Energy to Deus Ex. That's the sole change made to what the original Crucible was compaired to now.

And we create solutions for problems we know nothing about ourselves.
Global warming, anyone?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:34 .

[Meltemph]

Ugh, wrong.
Besides, since Vigil was both damaged with corrupted memory, and was an isolated system with no knolodge of anything besides the project it was built from, (and the indicitations that Vigil was itself built after the invasion), I don't place as much faith in it's words, compaired to the account of someone that actually went through the war firsthand.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense, are you saying the writers put vigil there to murky up the plot? That would make the point of Vigil being where he was, and saying what he said pretty pointless. Again, you are doing everything you can to protect the idea that the reaper story arc, specially in ME3, was well written, despite ANYTHING that points to the idea that there was little to no cohesion with the story arc.

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

Ugh, wrong.
Besides, since Vigil was both damaged with corrupted memory, and was an isolated system with no knolodge of anything besides the project it was built from, (and the indicitations that Vigil was itself built after the invasion), I don't place as much faith in it's words, compaired to the account of someone that actually went through the war firsthand.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense, are you saying the writers put vigil there to murky up the plot? That would make the point of Vigil being where he was, and saying what he said pretty pointless. Again, you are doing everything you can to protect the idea that the reaper story arc, specially in ME3, was well written, despite ANYTHING that points to the idea that there was little to no cohesion with the story arc.

Again, wrong.

Don't forget that everyone assumed the staues on Ilos were protheans. Instead, they were Innusannon.
The problem is, looking back, it's easy to see that Vigil's data was likely flawed, as it was completely isolated, and likely built after the invasion for the sake of the stasis pods. If so, then it not knowing about the Crucible would be an assurance. Garunteed.
Therefore, compaired to Javik's statement, Vigil's was based on what we can now see was incomplete information. Therefore, it was unknowingly incorrect, as it had no first-hand information about the prothean war. Just speculation. So it not knowing about the Crucible really does the opposate of what you thought, and actually ties in perfrectlly with the story.
It wasn't pointless. Just a small piece of the puzzle. Javik had pieces of it that Vigil didn't. Simple as that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:37 .

[CronoDragoon]

The only question I would have is what cycle, at what point during the harvest, realized that the Citadel could coordinate the relay network as a means of distributing energy? Or was this common knowledge at some point that was erased when the Reapers discovered the Crucible plans?

[silverexile17s]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The only question I would have is what cycle, at what point during the harvest, realized that the Citadel could coordinate the relay network as a means of distributing energy? Or was this common knowledge at some point that was erased when the Reapers discovered the Crucible plans?

It's hard to say. It may have been common knowledge at one point. It could have been discovered, forgotten and re-discovered, and buried again many, many times over the thousands of cycles.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:36 .

[Meltemph]

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Ugh, wrong.
Besides, since Vigil was both damaged with corrupted memory, and was an isolated system with no knolodge of anything besides the project it was built from, (and the indicitations that Vigil was itself built after the invasion), I don't place as much faith in it's words, compaired to the account of someone that actually went through the war firsthand.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense, are you saying the writers put vigil there to murky up the plot? That would make the point of Vigil being where he was, and saying what he said pretty pointless. Again, you are doing everything you can to protect the idea that the reaper story arc, specially in ME3, was well written, despite ANYTHING that points to the idea that there was little to no cohesion with the story arc.

Again, wrong.

Don't forget that everyone assumed the staues on Ilos were protheans. Instead, they were Innusannon.
The problem is, looking back, it's easy to see that Vigil's data was likely flawed, as it was completely isolated, and likely built after the invasion for the sake of the stasis pods. If so, then it not knowing about the Crucible would be an assurance. Garunteed.
Therefore, compaired to Javik's statement, Vigil's was based on what we can now see was incomplete information. Therefore, it was unknowingly incorrect, as it had no first-hand information about the prothean war. Just speculation. So it not knowing about the Crucible really does the opposate of what you thought, and actually ties in perfrectlly with the story.

Ya, you are not even making much sense now in terms of what we know.  You are now creating all sorts of headcannon to fill the void of a complete lack of information or sensibleness with how the crucible was presented.  Nothing you have posted actually deals with anything I posted.  Your only recourse is saying that the old information is wrong becauae the new information fits... if you cant see the problem with that, then there is nothing ANYONE can say.  You are determined to think that all 3 games fit together in a nice neat package, and that takes a special kind of devotion.  So I'll just chalk it up to you loving your own headcannon, which is fine, but I dont think you realize it is jsut that, you filling in the gaps to make the story fit for you.

Modifié par Meltemph, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:39 .

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Ugh, wrong.
Besides, since Vigil was both damaged with corrupted memory, and was an isolated system with no knolodge of anything besides the project it was built from, (and the indicitations that Vigil was itself built after the invasion), I don't place as much faith in it's words, compaired to the account of someone that actually went through the war firsthand.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense, are you saying the writers put vigil there to murky up the plot? That would make the point of Vigil being where he was, and saying what he said pretty pointless. Again, you are doing everything you can to protect the idea that the reaper story arc, specially in ME3, was well written, despite ANYTHING that points to the idea that there was little to no cohesion with the story arc.

Again, wrong.

Don't forget that everyone assumed the staues on Ilos were protheans. Instead, they were Innusannon.
The problem is, looking back, it's easy to see that Vigil's data was likely flawed, as it was completely isolated, and likely built after the invasion for the sake of the stasis pods. If so, then it not knowing about the Crucible would be an assurance. Garunteed.
Therefore, compaired to Javik's statement, Vigil's was based on what we can now see was incomplete information. Therefore, it was unknowingly incorrect, as it had no first-hand information about the prothean war. Just speculation. So it not knowing about the Crucible really does the opposate of what you thought, and actually ties in perfrectlly with the story.

Ya, you are not even making much sense now in terms of what we know.  You are know creating all sorts of headcannon to fill the void of a complete lack of information or sensibleness with how the crucible was presented.  Nothing you have posted actually deals with anything I posted.  Your only recourse is saying that the old information is wrong becauae the new information fits... if you cant see the problem with that, then there is nothing ANYONE can say, you are determined to think that all 3 games fit together in a nice neat package, and that takes a special kind of devotion, so I'll just chalk it up to you loving your own headcannon, which is fine, but I dont think you realize it is jsut that, you filling in the gaps to make the story fit for you.

You are refusing to look at it.
I already posted lore up myself, which is visible on the ME wiki as the source, that clearly states the protheans knew the Reapers were coming ahead of time. That seems like a pretty hard statement to discredit, since all the source material in on the wiki page on protheans for you to read.
And If they could do this then other races could learn ahead of time, too. That's how the race that invented the Crucible did it. It was a lucky break. There is no great secret, no headcannon magic. Just a simple lucky break. That's all.
Only someone in love with their own headcannon could ignore that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:43 .

[Meltemph]

You are refusing to look at it.
I already posted lore up myself, which is visible on the ME wiki as the source, that clearly states the protheans knew the Reapers were coming ahead of time. If they could do thism other races could. That's how the race that invented the Crucible did it. It was a lcuky break. There is no great secret, no headcannon magic. Just a simple lucky break. That's all.

It is like you are ignoring what I said...

Let me ask you this, do you see anywhere in my post where I specifically dealt with the information you posted?

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

You are refusing to look at it.
I already posted lore up myself, which is visible on the ME wiki as the source, that clearly states the protheans knew the Reapers were coming ahead of time. If they could do thism other races could. That's how the race that invented the Crucible did it. It was a lcuky break. There is no great secret, no headcannon magic. Just a simple lucky break. That's all.

It is like you are ignoring what I said...

Let me ask you this, do you see anywhere in my post where I specifically dealt with the information you posted?

I think it's the exact opposate here.
What did you post that countered what I said?

Like I said, Vigil not knowing about the Crucible does not contridict it's existance. It's just a computer that doesn't have the data becasue it was never connected to their network.
And because the protheans found out about the Reapers early, other races would be able to as well, opening the possibilaty that a race caught a lucky break, and learned enough about the Reapers and the Citidel ahead of time to devise a way to stop them: the Crucible.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:45 .

[Meltemph]

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

You are refusing to look at it.
I already posted lore up myself, which is visible on the ME wiki as the source, that clearly states the protheans knew the Reapers were coming ahead of time. If they could do thism other races could. That's how the race that invented the Crucible did it. It was a lcuky break. There is no great secret, no headcannon magic. Just a simple lucky break. That's all.

It is like you are ignoring what I said...

Let me ask you this, do you see anywhere in my post where I specifically dealt with the information you posted?

I think it's the exact opposate here.
What did you post that countered what I said?

Alright, so you dont see it.  Alright, that is all I wanted to know. Nice debating with you.

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

You are refusing to look at it.
I already posted lore up myself, which is visible on the ME wiki as the source, that clearly states the protheans knew the Reapers were coming ahead of time. If they could do thism other races could. That's how the race that invented the Crucible did it. It was a lcuky break. There is no great secret, no headcannon magic. Just a simple lucky break. That's all.

It is like you are ignoring what I said...

Let me ask you this, do you see anywhere in my post where I specifically dealt with the information you posted?

I think it's the exact opposate here.
What did you post that countered what I said?

Alright, so you dont see it.  Alright, that is all I wanted to know. Nice debating with you.

You quoted before I could finish.

Like I said, Vigil not knowing about the Crucible does not contridict it's existance. It's just a computer that doesn't have the data becasue it was never connected to their network.
And because the protheans found out about the Reapers early, other races would like have been able to as well, opening the possibilaty that a race caught a lucky break, and learned enough about the Reapers and the Citidel ahead of time to devise a way to stop them: the Crucible. But they failed to finish it before the invasion, so they left it's designs for others. The generations may have skipped several times ocassionally, so not every cycle had the plans to build, while some othere chose not to attempt it. But the construction, and the possibilaty that the race that built it learned enough ahead of time to invent the solution to it, is nowhere nere farfetched.

That's the simple truth. That you cannot see that is what amazes me, since it's right in front of you.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:50 .

[Legbiter]

Every single line of text in all of the games was looked at by multiple people so in a sense, yes.

[Maxster_]

Meltemph wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

You are refusing to look at it.
I already posted lore up myself, which is visible on the ME wiki as the source, that clearly states the protheans knew the Reapers were coming ahead of time. If they could do thism other races could. That's how the race that invented the Crucible did it. It was a lcuky break. There is no great secret, no headcannon magic. Just a simple lucky break. That's all.

It is like you are ignoring what I said...

Let me ask you this, do you see anywhere in my post where I specifically dealt with the information you posted?

I think it's the exact opposate here.
What did you post that countered what I said?

Alright, so you dont see it.  Alright, that is all I wanted to know. Nice debating with you.

Gave up already?

[Whole Particle]

Ninja Stan wrote...

The best the dev team can do is guess, infer and assume what people are going to like. They would sacrifice something they think is cool for something the fans think is cool in a heartbeat, if they could easily include it in the game and it fits with everything else they're doing. Because they're not making the game for their own enjoyment. They're making the game to be sold to and enjoyed by gamers! Making a game that sells well is pretty much their only goal!

If this is the case then why not remove / rewrite aspects that caused such great divisions among the fanbase, writers, etc.? For example, the "Starchild" character immediately comes to mind to me.

I'm not a professional writer or game developer, but I think just replacing a Kid that shows up in the last five minutes of the game (that I believe the vast majority of fans disliked) with a character such as Harbinger or someone wouldn't have been too difficult to change in the game via an aspect like the EC. Or was it already have been too late in the dev cycle to implement such story changes, contradict other aspects, narratives, etc.?

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

You are refusing to look at it.
I already posted lore up myself, which is visible on the ME wiki as the source, that clearly states the protheans knew the Reapers were coming ahead of time. If they could do thism other races could. That's how the race that invented the Crucible did it. It was a lcuky break. There is no great secret, no headcannon magic. Just a simple lucky break. That's all.

It is like you are ignoring what I said...

Let me ask you this, do you see anywhere in my post where I specifically dealt with the information you posted?

I think it's the exact opposate here.
What did you post that countered what I said?

Alright, so you dont see it.  Alright, that is all I wanted to know. Nice debating with you.

Gave up already?

At least I actually have proof of my statements, as shown by my refrencing of the articles of the ME wiki, showing that it is indeed possible to learn about the Reapers ahead of time and develop countermesures sucessfully, which the protheans did. And as was done with the Crucible. Which is indeed true. The other offered no statement that had any lore backing it, unlike me. Your and his proof of otherwise was?
Zip:D So that says more about you then me.

And your really just typing for the sake of being petty?
How pathetic. You ran out of headcannon?
That being the case, why are you still here then? It's obvious you in particular don't care one way or the other, so you need to get lost.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 02:41 .

[Ninja Stan]

silverexile17s, Maxster_, do I have to separate you two again?

[silverexile17s]

Ninja Stan wrote...

silverexile17s, Maxster_, do I have to separate you two again?

At the rate this is going... most likely. I feel like it just never gets dropped.
I don't want to fight this guy. Especally to the point of moderator intervention. But every time I start a debate with someone else, guess who tries to be snide, as shown above?

It's not my fault that I proved the Crucible being built doesn't contridict Vigil's testimant on Ilos. Or that a race was able to build the original Crucible as a countermesure against the Reapers by learning of them early, which the protheans proved it was possible to learn in advance about, by Javik's words. This also doesn't contridict anything Vigil said.
I even posted a refrence that proved my point. And instead of getting constructive debating, I got... the coments above.

If there is one thing I can't stand, it's groundless hate and snide remarks with no constructive reasoning. If they had valid reasons, I could understand, but this has no reasoning to it. It's just trolling anyone that tries to see BioWare's half of the picture as well.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 janvier 2013 - 03:21 .