298 réponses à ce sujet

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Teddie Sage wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Neizd wrote...

The game had to go through many hands and people...It's obvious that Casey and Mac took the hit for this, instead whole BW team, to somehow protect the company...the only question left is:
How did an ending like that could happen? No...whole priority:earth. There must have been a reason for it.

Because that's how they wanted to do it?

Even so, they didn't take in consideration about all the fans and this caused the backlash. When you make a trilogy that has this kind of following (a huge fanbase), you don't simply kill off a character and write him out of character at the middle of the game simply because you're sick and tired of it. Shepard didn't feel like "our" character for most of the people I'm hanging out with on the Retake groups and I agree with them. For me Shepard stopped being my Shepard after Thessia's mission. It wasn't a role playing game anymore, just an interactive movie with lots of action. While I understand you're trying to defend their decision, it wasn't the best one for everyone. I personally felt this game lost its charms because of Drew's departure. His writing style could be felt in both ME1 and ME2 and I missed him dearly for the third game.

It's their game and their universe. They can do whatever they want with it. Many musicians have huge fan bases too, but that doesn't mean they should let them dictate what kind of music they put out. 

[crimzontearz]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Disagreeing with a story does not necessarily make it "low-quality." Thinking the writing is bad or doesn't fit with the rest of the trilogy also doesn't necessarily make it "low-quality," anymore than believing everything you like and agree with is necessarily "high-quality."

Story development is done by the project management, which includes Mac (as lead writer), Casey (as executive producer), and other high-level project personnel. Once the story is decided upon, actual writing duties fall to the writing department. Along the way, artistic and technical concerns of the story are brought up by the writing department, project management, editors, and QA (mostly for testability issues).

While anyone can provide feedback on the content of the writing, plots, romances, etc., the lead writer and project management ultimately decide how to proceed, not just because they "know better," but because it's their job to keep the project moving forward. On DA:O, for example, one origin story went through complete rewrites from the ground up several times, only to ultimately be removed from the game and not used. Others went through significant rewrites before reaching the state in which they appeared in the final game.

It's easy to blame Mac and Casey for the parts of the game you don't like, but consider that no matter what was written, it had to pass through many hands, be edited more than once, and be looked at by many people hundreds of times before appearing in the final game.

really? Because one of the senior Devs was convinced there was a happy ending hidden in the game and that it hinged on import playthroughs which were NOT ALLOWED at work...(which also lead to the face import bug).


 
Excuse me if I now take everything you say about QA ****** grano salis

And excuse me if "ipse dixit" does not apply to you anymore


 
Genuinely tho...with all respect

Modifié par crimzontearz, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:34 .

[archangel1996]

Ninja Stan wrote...
It's easy to blame Mac and Casey for the parts of the game you don't like, but consider that no matter what was written, it had to pass through many hands, be edited more than once, and be looked at by many people hundreds of times before appearing in the final game.

WOW.....a....disturbing thing to think about

Modifié par archangel1996, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:37 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

archangel1996 wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...
It's easy to blame Mac and Casey for the parts of the game you don't like, but consider that no matter what was written, it had to pass through many hands, be edited more than once, and be looked at by many people hundreds of times before appearing in the final game.

WOW.....a....disturbing thing to think about

I know. People liking stuff you don't sure is disturbing. 

[Teddie Sage]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

It's their game and their universe. They can do whatever they want with it. Many musicians have huge fan bases too, but that doesn't mean they should let them dictate what kind of music they put out. 

I agree and I disagree. Mass Effect is their creation, but it's now more than that. It has expanded so much that now the fans are able to include pieces of themselves in the headcanons, the many fan fictions and even the endings if they ask the writers to do something about them. The writing quality dropped a lot when Drew left the franchise, even the biggest fans of the lore will agree on this. The game lacked his personal touch in the writing and it shows on many levels.

Mass Effect is malleable now, it can be everyone's game and BioWare's creation at the same time. This is what happens when you give so many personalities to these endearing characters, specially Shepard, and give us a huge universe to expand on every time. The story didn't felt finished, it felt unpolished and rushed and I'm sure a lot agree on this.

It occures to me that you will always defend them and their decisions, but please let's not jump at each other's throats because of our different opinions. I know I was pissed off earlier, but now I'm discussing about freedom of speech without personally attacking other people for thinking differently.

[KevShep]

Casey and Walters should have taken a page from George Lucas's notes of NOT writing a whole scriped by your self, because 10 times out of 10 a single writer will f*ck it up.


You need a team of writers in order to have them keep you in check.

Modifié par KevShep, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:54 .

[GimmeDaGun]

Maxster_ wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Disagreeing with a story does not necessarily make it "low-quality." Thinking the writing is bad or doesn't fit with the rest of the trilogy also doesn't necessarily make it "low-quality," anymore than believing everything you like and agree with is necessarily "high-quality."

Thinking the writing is great and deep, doesn't actually make it so, or make it high-quality writing, anymore than believe everything you wrote is a high-quality by default.
That kind of "defense" you displayed will never work. 

Literature have standarts, means to determine quality of a writing. Quality of writing is not subjective, as you pretending, it is objective.
Things like narrative coherence(things like details, story contradicting itself, story making no sense in established context) and characters motivation play role in that determination process.
For example, ME3 flat out retcons ME1 with Catalyst and reapers arrival, making ME1 story nonsensical. It means, that overarching narrative coherence is broken.
Therefore, to not get into too much details, ME3 writing is a very low-quality, either you accept it or pretend that there is no thing as writing quality.

Story development is done by the project management, which includes Mac (as lead writer), Casey (as executive producer), and other high-level project personnel. Once the story is decided upon, actual writing duties fall to the writing department. Along the way, artistic and technical concerns of the story are brought up by the writing department, project management, editors, and QA (mostly for testability issues).

That's of course fine, but why exactly Bioware needs to check quality of the story, when you just said that there is no such thing as objective writing quality?
Funny how you are contradicting yourself.

While anyone can provide feedback on the content of the writing, plots, romances, etc., the lead writer and project management ultimately decide how to proceed, not just because they "know better," but because it's their job to keep the project moving forward. On DA:O, for example, one origin story went through complete rewrites from the ground up several times, only to ultimately be removed from the game and not used. Others went through significant rewrites before reaching the state in which they appeared in the final game.

That's of course great.
And when we compare writing quality of DA:O and ME3, we'll notice, that DA:O writing quaity is very close to high(with greatly written characters like Loghain for example), and ME3(with Udina suddenly betraying himself with absolutely no reason) writing quality is very low.
Something suddenly broken with that beautiful quality control concept of yours?

It's easy to blame Mac and Casey for the parts of the game you don't like, but consider that no matter what was written, it had to pass through many hands, be edited more than once, and be looked at by many people hundreds of times before appearing in the final game.

An implausible excuse.
It is irrelevant how many people had their hands in quality control of writing, if result of that quality control is a very low quality.

I was always amused by this kind of "I know better" attitude while it's evident that each of our opinion is just another one of the million.

Quality of writing is objective you two say. Yes, it is, while you Maxter state that DA:O is high quality and ME:3 is low quality while they are on the very same level: pulp fiction with no real artistic quality to them, they can be technically creative, smart and nicely executed full of isnpiration, but that's about it. In that regard none of them are bad. But quality...

Dosztojevszkij, Proust, Goethe, Bulgakov, Babits, Mann, Losa, Shakespear etc. etc. ... those guys are high quality my friend. On this low level we are talking about, we can't even utter the word "quality" and yeah, down here it is very much up to subjective preferences wether you find something good or bad. This kind of writing is merely for entertainment without literal values. It's not quality...

As for ME and "retcons":

ME1 still works perfecty fine with the ME3 story line, just like as it worked with the ME2 one, because nothing final is truly revealed in there, only a few minor details about the reapers and their methods, but nothing is explained really. We know nothing about them, their motives, how they work etc.. The only thing we know is that the mass relays and The Citadell are their creations and that there's a cycle of harvest in every 50 thousand years, there's a vanguard who's been trying to start the present cycle but was unable to do so, because of the protheans' mischief (by disableing the Citadell's systems... it could be the dormant Catalyst's control over the station...why not?), so it had to try to get close to the Citadel somehow... that's why it looked for "allies" or pawns to get help for doing it "manually" (waking up the Catalyst?)... etc. etc. ... Most of the info we get is from an indoctrinated pawn (Saren), a single reaper who does not tell us anything really, only intimidatin us and a simple prothean VI (and as we know it the protheans didn't know too much of the reapers themselves... more than us, but not their real secrets) ...so as you can see it it's not retconning at all, only they took an unexplained idea further and built upon it, expanded it. But there's no direct contradiction there or retconning.

The prothean statues on Ilos? Retcon? Well, yes, most probably they were meant to be ancient prothean statues, but it wasn't written or stated anywhere. They only used it in the codex entry... but the codex is full of the galaxy's "current knowledge... like the Citadell being the prothean's creation" and that was the closest thing we could call a prothean at the time... later they decided to take a different direction with the protheans (first the collectors, later Javik), so they gave an explanation for those statues in one of the convos with Javik of them being of inussanon origin. 

Even Cerberus is revealed slowly as you go showing more and more of it. If you dislike it because you had an idea about them before, that's you. Nobody said anywhere that Cerberus is only a small organisation... by seeing what they are capable of doing, it is pretty evident that they have a huge amount of resources, influence and support. EDI shares some info, but it is kind of off (and when I look at magnitude of Cerberus' projects it does not add up)... I found it curious that TIM would tell her info about his highly secret organisation. It could be just the surface or false info to cover their real nature and magnitude. So again, nothing is set in stone or revealed really. 

Udina was always an Earht firs guy and one who never really seen eye to eye with the Council when it came to human interests. When Earth is attacked he could get so desperate that he took his influence and contacts in order to make contact with Cerberus (human extremists) to put the Council out of the way and use the advantage of the consequential chaos for using his own influence as the only remaining Councilor for an expedition for saving Earth - and it all happens way after the beginning of the invasion agains Earth, and as Coucilor it's him who gets all the news and intel of what monstrous things are going on on the mother planet (it kind of has an affect on people)... is his move crazy and desperate? Yes. Out of character? Given what we know of Udina, and the given circumstances, not so much.

Again: nothing is set in stone until the ending of a story (just think about the more simple Star Wars movies... in Ep. IV you couldn't tell that Vader was Luke's father at all...maybe he wasn't meant to be it at that time, but later they took that direction and it worked): you can always expect new revelations, details to surface as you go, and if it works within the dynamics of the story, then it's fine. Yeah, some of the things and directons they decided to take you might dislike (I don't like a few myself), but still it does not mean that it's crap or that they absolutely had know idea of what they were doing. Only you wanted something else or expected something else... that's your problem (I use here the royal you, not personally you).

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 03 janvier 2013 - 10:34 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...
It's easy to blame Mac and Casey for the parts of the game you don't like, but consider that no matter what was written, it had to pass through many hands, be edited more than once, and be looked at by many people hundreds of times before appearing in the final game.

WOW.....a....disturbing thing to think about

I know. People liking stuff you don't sure is disturbing. 

Now that the characterromance discussion boards are closed, fanboys top my list of disturbing things to be found on the boards for sure. As for our endings, they remain an absolute disgrace.

That thread about blue babies is at the top of my list of disturbing things to be found on the boards.

[Sonashi]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...


It's their game and their universe. They can do whatever they want with it. Many musicians have huge fan bases too, but that doesn't mean they should let them dictate what kind of music they put out. 

O rly? I've seen quite a lot of your posts before Brovikk, not necessarily agreed with all of them but at least I could understand your pov. But this?

If it's true, why on Earth, BioWare should make another ME game? It's easier to make a damn movie instead, right? All that talks about personal experience, feedback from the fanbase, choices etc... WAS FOR NOTHING?? Hell I remember an interview, where Casey Hudson himself, was talking about how they create ME universe with players.

And now you're telling us that it's their story, it's their game. I can't tell you how wrong you are. It is not a thing you can comprehend.

And you should understand that people here can post their negative opinions as long as they do it in a civil and reasonable way.

It's not fair, to call all of them whiners or idiots who can't understand the endings, just because they don't like them. And I know, it's no fair to call people, like you, ****s or fanboys, just because you enjoy the game. 

Shall we try to understand each other for a change?

[silverexile17s]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Disagreeing with a story does not necessarily make it "low-quality." Thinking the writing is bad or doesn't fit with the rest of the trilogy also doesn't necessarily make it "low-quality," anymore than believing everything you like and agree with is necessarily "high-quality."

Story development is done by the project management, which includes Mac (as lead writer), Casey (as executive producer), and other high-level project personnel. Once the story is decided upon, actual writing duties fall to the writing department. Along the way, artistic and technical concerns of the story are brought up by the writing department, project management, editors, and QA (mostly for testability issues).

While anyone can provide feedback on the content of the writing, plots, romances, etc., the lead writer and project management ultimately decide how to proceed, not just because they "know better," but because it's their job to keep the project moving forward. On DA:O, for example, one origin story went through complete rewrites from the ground up several times, only to ultimately be removed from the game and not used. Others went through significant rewrites before reaching the state in which they appeared in the final game.

It's easy to blame Mac and Casey for the parts of the game you don't like, but consider that no matter what was written, it had to pass through many hands, be edited more than once, and be looked at by many people hundreds of times before appearing in the final game.

Not to be rude, but I doubt that anyone here will take the word of a Moderator, given the BioWare hate being thrown around this page.

[GimmeDaGun]

Sonashi wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...


It's their game and their universe. They can do whatever they want with it. Many musicians have huge fan bases too, but that doesn't mean they should let them dictate what kind of music they put out. 

O rly? I've seen quite a lot of your posts before Brovikk, not necessarily agreed with all of them but at least I could understand your pov. But this?

If it's true, why on Earth, BioWare should make another ME game? It's easier to make a damn movie instead, right? All that talks about personal experience, feedback from the fanbase, choices etc... WAS FOR NOTHING?? Hell I remember an interview, where Casey Hudson himself, was talking about how they create ME universe with players.

And now you're telling us that it's their story, it's their game. I can't tell you how wrong you are. It is not a thing you can comprehend.

And you should understand that people here can post their negative opinions as long as they do it in a civil and reasonable way.

It's not fair, to call all of them whiners or idiots who can't understand the endings, just because they don't like them. And I know, it's no fair to call people, like you, ****s or fanboys, just because you enjoy the game. 

Shall we try to understand each other for a change?

Well, Brovik might look like an advocate of Bioware, but he's unfortunately right in this matter. I mean it's their creation, no matter how attached you are to it. Metallica released a few albums that many hardcore fans hated... but hell, it's their music. It's them who make the music for their own pleasure and to express how they feel or what they think on their own level, and not you. If you don't enjoy it, then don't listen to it.

And you can't blame it on Bioware's PR which poured lots of marketing bs. babble like "it's your story etc." Who would believe those kind of obvious marketing devices completely with a sane mind anyway? Even if you get a limited option of personalising the story by using the prescripted permutations, it does not make it your story. 

And of course you can post your negative opinions, you're entitled to it... only you should realise that it's just another opinion, nothing more, and that it won't change anything in regard of creative freedom. If they create something you don't like, well... they have all the right to do that. Some others will enjoy it anyway for their own reasons. It won't make you an idiot, but it won't make those people idiots either who like it... 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 03 janvier 2013 - 11:00 .

[KevShep]

Sonashi wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...


It's their game and their universe. They can do whatever they want with it. Many musicians have huge fan bases too, but that doesn't mean they should let them dictate what kind of music they put out. 

O rly? I've seen quite a lot of your posts before Brovikk, not necessarily agreed with all of them but at least I could understand your pov. But this?

If it's true, why on Earth, BioWare should make another ME game? It's easier to make a damn movie instead, right? All that talks about personal experience, feedback from the fanbase, choices etc... WAS FOR NOTHING?? Hell I remember an interview, where Casey Hudson himself, was talking about how they create ME universe with players.

And now you're telling us that it's their story, it's their game. I can't tell you how wrong you are. It is not a thing you can comprehend.

And you should understand that people here can post their negative opinions as long as they do it in a civil and reasonable way.

It's not fair, to call all of them whiners or idiots who can't understand the endings, just because they don't like them. And I know, it's no fair to call people, like you, ****s or fanboys, just because you enjoy the game. 

Shall we try to understand each other for a change?

This^

I would like to add something. 

3 minute long song is not the same as a 100+ hour game. Why the hell is Brovikk comparing the two?...How can you for that matter?

Games are different then music because you dont spend hours and hours on a song only to find that it sucks as well as 60+ dollors invested.

I say we DO have a say in a game by the Dev listening to our suggestions. Bioware did not listen at all to the MAIN core suggestions. 

[GimmeDaGun]

KevShep wrote...

Sonashi wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...


It's their game and their universe. They can do whatever they want with it. Many musicians have huge fan bases too, but that doesn't mean they should let them dictate what kind of music they put out. 

O rly? I've seen quite a lot of your posts before Brovikk, not necessarily agreed with all of them but at least I could understand your pov. But this?

If it's true, why on Earth, BioWare should make another ME game? It's easier to make a damn movie instead, right? All that talks about personal experience, feedback from the fanbase, choices etc... WAS FOR NOTHING?? Hell I remember an interview, where Casey Hudson himself, was talking about how they create ME universe with players.

And now you're telling us that it's their story, it's their game. I can't tell you how wrong you are. It is not a thing you can comprehend.

And you should understand that people here can post their negative opinions as long as they do it in a civil and reasonable way.

It's not fair, to call all of them whiners or idiots who can't understand the endings, just because they don't like them. And I know, it's no fair to call people, like you, ****s or fanboys, just because you enjoy the game. 

Shall we try to understand each other for a change?

This^

I would like to add something. 

3 minute long song is not the same as a 100+ hour game. Why the hell is Brovikk comparing the two?...How can you for that matter?

Games are different then music because you dont spend hours and hours on a song only to find that it sucks as well as 60+ dollors invested.

I say we DO have a say in a game by the Dev listening to our suggestions. Bioware did not listen at all to the MAIN core suggestions. 

I'm curious how would you react if someone demanded you to completely change something you created and like as it is. 

Purchasing a piece of intellectual product is not the same as buying a car. You can't just go and say... "hey I don't like this and that... change it!" Investing time in something does not make you entitled to have a say in the creative process... by buying it, investing time and emotions on it, you took a risk by your own free will. That was your choice, your responsibility not theirs. You also had the chance to ask for a refund, if you wished to do that. Why do people put the blame solely on the other party? We all should know that two is needed for a dance... one of them is us. 

[Ninja Stan]

KevShep wrote...

Casey and Walters should have taken a page from George Lucas's notes of NOT writing a whole scriped by your self, because 10 times out of 10 a single writer will f*ck it up.

You need a team of writers in order to have them keep you in check.

Good thing ME3 had a whole team of writers, then, isn't it? Go on, check your game credits. You'll find more than just two writers listed, and I'm pretty sure Casey isn't even one of them.

And I'm reasonably certain there are plenty of writers who write entire scripts by themselves. Some of them are even good enough to write whole books by themselves! Whole series of books, even! Imagine, J.R.R. Tolkien was such a good writer, he didn't need anyone to keep him in check! I guess that's why he's so popular.

[Sonashi]

GimmeDaGun wrote...



Well, Brovik might look like an advocate of Bioware, but he's unfortunately right. I mean it's their creation, no matter how attached you are to it. Metallica released a few albums that many hardcore fans hated... but hell, it's their music. It's them who make the music for their own pleasure and to express how they feel or what they think on their own level and not you. If you don't enjoy, then don't listen to it.

And you can't blame it on Bioware's PR which poured lots of marketing bs. babble like "it's your story etc." Who would believe it completely with a sane mind? Even if you get a limited option of personalising the story by using the prescripted permutations, it does not make that it's your story. 

And of course you can post your negative opinions, your entitled to it... only you should realise that it's just another opinion, nothing more and won't change anything in regard of creative freedom. If they create something you don't like, well... they have all the right to do that. Some others will enjoy it anyway for their own reasons.

I wish you could see it like I do. It's so...perfect...

But really, IT'S OUR GAME. Theirs - developers and ours - players (in symbolic way). We need each other to exist in this industry. Well some of the existing companies have to learn that lesson the hard way.

There's one, important thing we (players, devs) should have in common - PASSION about the game we all love. Take that away and the perfect match is forever broken.

Or maybe... I just see things differently.

[GimmeDaGun]

Ninja Stan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Casey and Walters should have taken a page from George Lucas's notes of NOT writing a whole scriped by your self, because 10 times out of 10 a single writer will f*ck it up.

You need a team of writers in order to have them keep you in check.

Good thing ME3 had a whole team of writers, then, isn't it? Go on, check your game credits. You'll find more than just two writers listed, and I'm pretty sure Casey isn't even one of them.

And I'm reasonably certain there are plenty of writers who write entire scripts by themselves. Some of them are even good enough to write whole books by themselves! Whole series of books, even! Imagine, J.R.R. Tolkien was such a good writer, he didn't need anyone to keep him in check! I guess that's why he's so popular.

:lol: Well put... there wouldn't be literature if only a team of writers could create something good. I'm smiling right now, just of the thought of all thos huge artists, egos trying to work together and create a consistent story. Simple scripts can bare team work, but real literature can't. 

[Dubozz]

archangel1996 wrote...

Sure they have

Suddenly ROFL. for real

[KevShep]

Ninja Stan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Casey and Walters should have taken a page from George Lucas's notes of NOT writing a whole scriped by your self, because 10 times out of 10 a single writer will f*ck it up.

You need a team of writers in order to have them keep you in check.

Good thing ME3 had a whole team of writers, then, isn't it? Go on, check your game credits. You'll find more than just two writers listed, and I'm pretty sure Casey isn't even one of them.

And I'm reasonably certain there are plenty of writers who write entire scripts by themselves. Some of them are even good enough to write whole books by themselves! Whole series of books, even! Imagine, J.R.R. Tolkien was such a good writer, he didn't need anyone to keep him in check! I guess that's why he's so popular.

Then maybe they need to be fans of the series instead of just writers.

 If you guys had fans under contract to view the games content then you could have avoided this mess. 

Edit: btw...it does not matter how good a writer is, if they are not into it like the fans then no matter what they write it will not be that good. The current( and on going) fan rage is prove of this.

Modifié par KevShep, 03 janvier 2013 - 11:14 .

[GimmeDaGun]

KevShep wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Casey and Walters should have taken a page from George Lucas's notes of NOT writing a whole scriped by your self, because 10 times out of 10 a single writer will f*ck it up.

You need a team of writers in order to have them keep you in check.

Good thing ME3 had a whole team of writers, then, isn't it? Go on, check your game credits. You'll find more than just two writers listed, and I'm pretty sure Casey isn't even one of them.

And I'm reasonably certain there are plenty of writers who write entire scripts by themselves. Some of them are even good enough to write whole books by themselves! Whole series of books, even! Imagine, J.R.R. Tolkien was such a good writer, he didn't need anyone to keep him in check! I guess that's why he's so popular.

Then maybe they need to be fans of the series instead of just writers.

 If you guys had fans under contract to view the games content then you could have avoided this mess. 

Edit: btw...it does not matter how good a writer is, if they are not into it like the fans then no matter what they write it will not be that good. 

Not really: every fan wants or wants to flash out something else... everybody wants to see their own fanfic, headcanon being in the actual product, so it wouldn't help too much. 

And the writers are fans themselves.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 03 janvier 2013 - 11:14 .

[Ninja Stan]

Sonashi wrote...

If it's true, why on Earth, BioWare should make another ME game? It's easier to make a damn movie instead, right? All that talks about personal experience, feedback from the fanbase, choices etc... WAS FOR NOTHING?? Hell I remember an interview, where Casey Hudson himself, was talking about how they create ME universe with players.

And now you're telling us that it's their story, it's their game. I can't tell you how wrong you are. It is not a thing you can comprehend.

I invite you to try and release your version of Mass Effect 3 commercially. Or even publish your Shepard's preferred story and ending as a commerical novel. It's your game and your story, isn't it?

Now, take into account your reaction to someone telling you, essentially, that the game experience you just had didn't matter. How strongly did you feel about that?

The Mass Effect games allow you to weave your own story of your own Shepard. You identify with the character because you've imbued a bit of yourself into him/her, and when Shepard experiences his/her story, it also becomes your story. Because you want it to be. Because it's awesome! It's the same feeling we get when we read about Frodo's rtrek to Mount Doom with the One Ring. It's the same feeling we get when we see James Bond jumping off a train to avoid an explosion.

In that way, especially with interactive media where the user gets to create the character, make the choices, and exert his power to act through that character, yeah, it is your game and your story.

In a strict legal and practical sense, when talking about who does all the work, it's a slightly different story. I understand what Brovikk Rasputin is saying, and wish he would say it in a less confrontational way, but it's true. Whatever you experience in a game is limited by what is programmed into the game. To get more of that experience, to see more of the ME universe and follow different stories, it really is up to BioWare to determine how that happens.

And you may not like what they do. That's always a risk when you get emotionally invested in a setting, product, or franchise. I myself have bought many things that I thought were just bad. Well crafted or not, I didn't like them or I thought they didn't fit. That's a little different than the "no, it's bad and BioWare should feel bad" type arguments that get thrown around.

Maxster_, for one, vehemently disagrees with me, but I'm not sure he's quite gotten my point. I'm saying that one should recognize one's own biases and preferences and tolerances, and not use them to trash things one simply doesn't like. It is entirely possible to dislike something while still acknowledging it as valid, like I do with Big Bang Theory. It's also possible to do the opposite. I love a lot of old Saturday morning cartoons, but they're pretty bad.

And you should understand that people here can post their negative opinions as long as they do it in a civil and reasonable way. 

It's not fair, to call all of them whiners or idiots who can't understand the endings, just because they don't like them. And I know, it's no fair to call people, like you, ****s or fanboys, just because you enjoy the game. 

Shall we try to understand each other for a change?

I agree.

[KevShep]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Casey and Walters should have taken a page from George Lucas's notes of NOT writing a whole scriped by your self, because 10 times out of 10 a single writer will f*ck it up.

You need a team of writers in order to have them keep you in check.

Good thing ME3 had a whole team of writers, then, isn't it? Go on, check your game credits. You'll find more than just two writers listed, and I'm pretty sure Casey isn't even one of them.

And I'm reasonably certain there are plenty of writers who write entire scripts by themselves. Some of them are even good enough to write whole books by themselves! Whole series of books, even! Imagine, J.R.R. Tolkien was such a good writer, he didn't need anyone to keep him in check! I guess that's why he's so popular.

Then maybe they need to be fans of the series instead of just writers.

 If you guys had fans under contract to view the games content then you could have avoided this mess. 

Edit: btw...it does not matter how good a writer is, if they are not into it like the fans then no matter what they write it will not be that good. 

Not really: every fan wants or wants to flash out something else... everybody wants to see their own fanfic, headcanon being in the actual product, so it wouldn't help too much. 

And the writers are fans themselves.

Your not understanding. Iam not saying that they should do ONLY what the fans want. Iam saying that the contracted fans should give feedback on the Spoiler plot itself. This way the devs can understand what is good and what is run away literature.

Modifié par KevShep, 03 janvier 2013 - 11:17 .

[GimmeDaGun]

KevShep wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Casey and Walters should have taken a page from George Lucas's notes of NOT writing a whole scriped by your self, because 10 times out of 10 a single writer will f*ck it up.

You need a team of writers in order to have them keep you in check.

Good thing ME3 had a whole team of writers, then, isn't it? Go on, check your game credits. You'll find more than just two writers listed, and I'm pretty sure Casey isn't even one of them.

And I'm reasonably certain there are plenty of writers who write entire scripts by themselves. Some of them are even good enough to write whole books by themselves! Whole series of books, even! Imagine, J.R.R. Tolkien was such a good writer, he didn't need anyone to keep him in check! I guess that's why he's so popular.

Then maybe they need to be fans of the series instead of just writers.

 If you guys had fans under contract to view the games content then you could have avoided this mess. 

Edit: btw...it does not matter how good a writer is, if they are not into it like the fans then no matter what they write it will not be that good. 

Not really: every fan wants or wants to flash out something else... everybody wants to see their own fanfic, headcanon being in the actual product, so it wouldn't help too much. 

And the writers are fans themselves.

Your not understanding. Iam not saying that they should do ONLY what the fans want. Iam saying that the contracted fans should give feedback on the Spoiler plot itself. This way the devs can understand what is good and what is run away literature.

Yeah, but from the point you start to employ them they lose their "only hardcore fan" status and become invested in different ways and would be a lot more in the loop. So they might accept the direction the actual writers take a lot easier, because they would get a lot more context. I don't think that would work either. And as far as I know gaming companies indeed pay for testers to give feedback about their games in production before release... and those are fans too with an NDA.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 03 janvier 2013 - 11:22 .

[KevShep]

GimmeDaGun wrote...



Yeah, but from the point you start to employ them they lose their "only hardcore fan" status and become invested in different ways and would be a lot more in the loop. So they might accept the direction the actual writers take a lot easier, because they would get a lot more context. I don't think that would work either. And as far as I know. Gaming companies indeed pay for testers to give feedback about their games in production before release... and those are fans too with an NDA.

Iam not talking about testers.

I want these so called awesome writers to tell me why they thought it was a good idea to change the ENTIRE plot during the last game the caused ME2 to have no holding on the plan to stop the reapers at all(seriously,ME2 should have been a DLC then if we are not planning for the reapers).

They could have used ME2 to intruduce the crucible!

Why the hell did they then go with a copy cat ending of Deus Ex that had the SAME EXACT ending? these are top of the line writers? 


These writers know nothing.

Modifié par KevShep, 03 janvier 2013 - 11:28 .

[Sonashi]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

I'm curious how would you react if someone demanded you to completely change something you created and like as it is. 

Purchasing a piece of intellectual product is not the same as buying a car. You can't just go and say... "hey I don't like this and that... change it!" Investing time in something does not make you entitled to have a say in the creative process... by buying it, investing time and emotions on it, you took a risk by your own free will. That was your choice, your responsibility not theirs. You also had the chance to ask for a refund, if you wished to do that. Why do people put the blame solely on the other party? We all should know that two is needed for a dance... one of them is us. 

Yeah...but BioWare used to be something more than usual game producer. But something happened. Something opposite than what was said in ME 3. Instead of inevitable synthesis we split into two groups. They are now Organics and we - the fanbase (not all of it) are Synthetics. They created us - the fanbase, by making fantastic games for us and WITH us. And we rebelled against them lol!

They've been showing a huge respect to players - their fans, who were emotionally invested with all that hard work. But guess what happened. But their started to take that kind of line of defense like you wrote. We were the only one to blame for the things that happened coz of ME 3. And because we weren't intelligent enough to understand their vision, they meet us half-way through with the EC.

This hurts me even today. Not the endings - I accepted them (hell I finished my 8th playthrough two days ago - I enjoy that game despite its flaws), but that attitude, like they stopped caring about our opinion. We aren't a family anymore. That's how I see it personally.

PS.  we, us, they, - It makes me easier to describe MY personal feelings towards whole situation. I can't speak for everybody and that wasn't my intention.