Maxster_ wrote...
GimmeDaGun wrote...
I was always amused by this kind of "I know better" attitude while it's evident that each of our opinion is just another one of the million.
I do know better, at least than you.
Quality of writing is objective you two say. Yes, it is, while you Maxter state that DA:O is high quality and ME:3 is low quality while they are on the very same level: pulp fiction with no real artistic quality to them, they can be technically creative, smart and nicely executed full of isnpiration, but that's about it. In that regard none of them are bad. But quality...
Pathetic.
Thing is Ninja Stan said that quality of writing is entirely subjective, and therefore can not be measured in any way, even like something being lower or higher quality.
And i said, that it is false.
And you just agreed with me.
Dosztojevszkij, Proust, Goethe, Bulgakov, Babits, Mann, Losa, Shakespear etc. etc. ... those guys are high quality my friend. On this low level we are talking about, we can't even utter the word "quality" and yeah, down here it is very much up to subjective preferences wether you find something good or bad. This kind of writing is merely for entertainment without literal values. It's not quality...
Okay, now you judging quality of writing by value of it's entertainment. If it has more "literal values"(what's that exactly? another asspull you made just to "prove" your "point" i guess) and less entertainment - than this is a quality writing?
Lol.
Fictional literature is entertainment. Shocking, i know.
I guess you never read Bugakov or Shakespear. 
And this is of course completely beside the point, because games, although they could never reach quality level of brilliant examples of human's literature - differs by quality of writing of their stories. Especially actual for RPGs.
Shocking, i know.
There are brilliant examples like Planescape:Torment, Witcher, good examples like DA:O, ME1, - and there is garbage like ME3.
So, if we set a bar of high quality on Planescape, good quality on ME1 - we will see that ME3 is far below in writing quality.
As for ME and "retcons":
ME1 still works perfecty fine with the ME3 story line, just like as it worked with the ME2 one, because nothing final is truly revealed in there, only a few minor details about the reapers and their methods, but nothing is explained really. We know nothing about them, their motives, how they work etc.. The only thing we know is that the mass relays and The Citadell are their creations and that there's a cycle of harvest in every 50 thousand years, there's a vanguard who's been trying to start the present cycle but was unable to do so, because of the protheans' mischief (by disableing the Citadell's systems... it could be the dormant Catalyst's control over the station...why not?), so it had to try to get close to the Citadel somehow... that's why it looked for "allies" or pawns to get help for doing it "manually" (waking up the Catalyst?)... etc. etc. ... Most of the info we get is from an indoctrinated pawn (Saren), a single reaper who does not tell us anything really, only intimidatin us and a simple prothean VI (and as we know it the protheans didn't know too much of the reapers themselves... more than us, but not their real secrets) ...so as you can see it it's not retconning at all, only they took an unexplained idea further and built upon it, expanded it. But there's no direct contradiction there or retconning.
Yes, yes, Catalyst just sat on Citadel watching for Sovereign continued fails. For lulz.
Reapers sat in dark space for thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations, when they could just fly into a galaxy in 0.5-3 years losing completely nothing - because Catalyst ordered them, he just wanted to watch Sovereign's fails for lulz.
Crucible is plain nonsense and can not be designed.
And all that is high quality writing on par with ME1 and DA:O because there is more high quality writing in human literature, and therefore, compared to that literature, ME1 and ME3 quality of writing is on same level - thus ME3's quality of writing is the same as ME1.
Wow doesn't even cover that © smudboy.
So you basically took works of fiction that are not in sci-fi or fantasy genre, which are obviously entertainment genres, to prove that sci-fi and fantasy genres have no measurements of quality writing, because classical literature is actually better.
That's just.. pathetic.
Of course, there are quaility difference in genres like sci-fi and fantasy, and games we discussing are part of those genres.
Anyway, your "point" about games having no quality of writing compared to a classical literature and, therefore, all games quality of writing is the same(very low) is void.
The prothean statues on Ilos? Retcon? Well, yes, most probably they were meant to be ancient prothean statues, but it wasn't written or stated anywhere. They only used it in the codex entry... but the codex is full of the galaxy's "current knowledge... like the Citadell being the prothean's creation" and that was the closest thing we could call a prothean at the time... later they decided to take a different direction with the protheans (first the collectors, later Javik), so they gave an explanation for those statues in one of the convos with Javik of them being of inussanon origin.
So, because codex is full of "current galaxy's knowledge" - this is now justification of crap writing like Crucible and catalyst?
Suure.
Even Cerberus is revealed slowly as you go showing more and more of it. If you dislike it because you had an idea about them before, that's you. Nobody said anywhere that Cerberus is only a small organisation... by seeing what they are capable of doing, it is pretty evident that they have a huge amount of resources, influence and support. EDI shares some info, but it is kind of off (and when I look at magnitude of Cerberus' projects it does not add up)... I found it curious that TIM would tell her info about his highly secret organisation. It could be just the surface or false info to cover their real nature and magnitude. So again, nothing is set in stone or revealed really.
Ok, now you discarding information because it doesn't fit your headcanon.
Now, suddenly, Cerberus was always a space empire with entire fleets, bases throughout the galaxy, unlimited resources.
No civilization in Shepard's cycle had any clue about such massive entity.
Anyway, it directly contradicts ME books, which are, for fans of "twitter storytelling" like you is unbreakable canon.
Udina was always an Earht firs guy and one who never really seen eye to eye with the Council when it came to human interests. When Earth is attacked he could get so desperate that he took his influence and contacts in order to make contact with Cerberus (human extremists) to put the Council out of the way and use the advantage of the consequential chaos for using his own influence as the only remaining Councilor for an expedition for saving Earth - and it all happens way after the beginning of the invasion agains Earth, and as Coucilor it's him who gets all the news and intel of what monstrous things are going on on the mother planet (it kind of has an affect on people)... is his move crazy and desperate? Yes. Out of character? Given what we know of Udina, and the given circumstances, not so much.
Yes, yes, he was part of the council and then he decided to betray himself as a councillor, by removing council, leaving himself as only suspect, and suspected of having ties with Cerberus, which all council races are loving so much.
All that to apply to a leaders of such races in hope that they will provide him with fleets to free Earth(especially funny when such things said by those who oppose possibility of conventional victory, like EAWare defenders).
Riight.
And that crap comes from someone who just spoke about quality of classical literature...
Again: nothing is set in stone until the ending of a story (just think about the more simple Star Wars movies... in Ep. IV you couldn't tell that Vader was Luke's father at all...maybe he wasn't meant to be it at that time, but later they took that direction and it worked): you can always expect new revelations, details to surface as you go, and if it works within the dynamics of the story, then it's fine. Yeah, some of the things and directons they decided to take you might dislike (I don't like a few myself), but still it does not mean that it's crap or that they absolutely had know idea of what they were doing. Only you wanted something else or expected something else... that's your problem (I use here the royal you, not personally you).
Yes, they had no idea what they doing. Yes, they have no quality control(or it is not working, irrelevant).
Yes, ME3 story is pure garbage, which nullifies its prequels.
Yes, ME3 as itself written horrible, examples being earth:intro, Crucible, Cerberus Empire, citadel's coup, and Catalyst.
Yes, ME3 is objectively badly written, it writing quality far below even ME2, and of course ME1 and DA:O.
1. WOW. I cannot even BEGIN to attempt to measure the shear
arrogance of that statement.
This convinces me that you are just trolling out of shear spite. I mean, saying "I know better" yet not offering anything that actually
proves that statement?
You really aren't making a good case for yourself.
2. Again, saying that they're wrong and your right, yet offering
nothing to prove it. Just saying "I'm right" doesn't make you right.
Again, you are Blueprotoss 2.0.
Just because
you personally didn't enjoy ME3's plot, doesn't mean that's true of others. I've seen just as many posts on this page saying they enjoyed the game as there have been posts that decryed it.
3. People like you are
exactally why threads get shut down. Instead of offering constrcutive critisism, you make asspulls while accusing others of doing so. Again, Blueprotoss 2.0.
BOTH can be considered aspects of quality writing. Literal Values can be good Entertainment, and vice versa. There is NO DIFFERENCE between them. And quality writing is subjective.
You can learn that by reading Shakespere:whistle:
4. Did you even
read what he wrote?
He offered up the possibilaty that whatever the protheans did to the Citidel rendered the Catalyst dormant, and that Sovergien was trying to wake it back up.
Also, waiting for Sovergien to re-open the Citidel gate is called the "path of least resistance." It's quicker and easier then treaking all the way from dark space "on foot."
Also, I point you to the living starships that are created by absorbtion of DNA. That doesn't seem any less unlikely then the Crucible. Nither does reviving someone from brain-death.
Also, I remind you that a giant Reaper-killing doomsday weapon was no more or less rediculas then the prospect of the Reapers themselves. Or the Collectors and what they are doing. The skill of exicution may have varried on them, but the plots themselves are all on the same level of pontental absurdness or believeabilaty. Weather or not they are inferiour or superiour is a matter of opinion.
5. It proves that retcons are possible to do without drasticlly altering, or in the best case, even ever touching the story, since they work to never show anything that diffinitively proves one thing or another until the big reveal.
And again, Crucible and Catalyst are no more "crap writing" then the Reapers themselves are.
6. No. That's YOU. Or you are just ignoring it because it doesn't fit your preconceptions.
I remind you that between the massive human population on Omega to recrut from, and the good publicity they built up from fighting the Collectors, the fact that their recrutement went up like 600% isn't as far-fetched as you think.
Also, making several billion a year? Over 30+ years? That builds up quite a bit. We never saw the true extent of Cerberus before. Who's to say they haven't been biding their time all along? Building up ships for the possibilaty of alien attack, to help humanity fight back? The ships and bases they have are a good number for a group with that kind of funding over three decades.
Also, I remind you that the galaxy had no clue about the strength of the geth, or of the existance of the Collectors and the Reapers. Given the Councils actions in-game, them not having a clue about Cerberus' strength is par for the course if you ask me.
Also, the books aren't perfect cannon, as Deception's retcon proves.
7. Earth was burning, and the Council was just going to stand by and watch, letting the Reapers harvest Earth so that they could regroup and defend their own worlds. They were basically marytring Earth, and the core of his entire race, right in front of him.
What would
you do in that position? If you had a chance to svae them when seemingly no one else gave a damn, wouldn't you take the chance?
Combine those above points with his humanity first thought-process, and the distain he had for the Council's policies, and it wasn't really that surprising that he worked with Cerberus.
And your points about Udina's Cerberus ties would have been completely null and void had the coup suceeded.
8. ME3's devs having no clue what they were doing is a matter of opinion. And you have no diffinitive proof of such.
Quality control has no real impact on good or bad games. Just look at Mindjack, Sonic: Free Riders and Steel Batallion: Heavy Armor.
ME3's plot is no more or less garbage then it's predessors, as ME1's plot (giant living spaceships that wipe out all advanced life every 50,000 years) and ME2's plot (Protheans are alive, and making Reapers out of our DNA, which is detached from the main Reaper-fighting storyline) are no worse then ME3's plot (Reaper-killing doomsday weapon). If anything, ME3's plot is downright sane compaired to the storylines that came before.
Again, the story being bad is a matter of opinion, and as shown on this very thread, people enjoied it regardless of the game's flaws. After all, I doubt that there is a game that doesn't have flaws.
And if anything, ME2 is the one with the most nonsensical plot (Shepard get's brought back to life? Protheans are still alive? Reapers are made from liquid DNA? Geth are the good guys? What does any of this have to do with the plot of the last game?). If anything, ME3's writing is right on par with ME2. And at least ME3 stays with the
original plot of fighting the Reapers.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:03 .
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