546 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

I don't feel like arguing the specifics of it. What matters is that Avernus was doing blood magic experiments and he actually managed to extend his lifespan.

"If A then B" does NOT imply "If B then A".  Just because bloodmagic can be used to extend lifespan or even a form of immortality does not imply that all forms of immortality come from bloodmagic.  For example, we know the Darkspawn are immortal just because.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually the Spirit of the Forest says, "Your people believe you have rediscovered the immortality of their ancestors, but that is not true...."

This fairly directly implies that the ancient elves were immortal just because they were elves. Certainly there is NO EVIDENCE that the ancient elves were immortal because of bloodmagic.

First, that spirit called Zathrian its creator which confirms that it had no conscience before Zathrian came along therefore any knowledge it would have of ancient elves would come from the same sources we use.

Second, using "rediscovered" implies nothing of the sort. If, right now, civilization were to collapse and a thousand years from now our descendents rediscovered say...how to make cars, that doesn't mean cars used to be inherent to the humans condition. It just means that these wasteland survivors would have rediscovered how we made them.

Thus you can not say with any degree of certainty that the Dalish were not provoked.  Only that (per Ilen) that they struck first and that is not at all the same thing.

Nor can you say that they were. Are pre-emptive strikes now acceptable?
Because when Templars do the same they are accused of villainy.

IanPolaris wrote...
"If A then B" does NOT imply "If B then
A".  Just because bloodmagic can be used to extend lifespan or even a
form of immortality does not imply that all forms of immortality
come from bloodmagic.  For example, we know the Darkspawn are immortal
just because.

The Darkspawn are immortal because the Taint sustains them which is magical in nature and, through Corypheus,
has connections with blood sacrifices. What we've certainly seen no example of is biological immortality. Much less one that is diminished simply by close proximity with another species.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 février 2013 - 09:18 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually the Spirit of the Forest says, "Your people believe you have rediscovered the immortality of their ancestors, but that is not true...."

This fairly directly implies that the ancient elves were immortal just because they were elves. Certainly there is NO EVIDENCE that the ancient elves were immortal because of bloodmagic.

First, that spirit called Zathrian its creator which confirms that it had no conscience before Zathrian came along therefore any knowledge it would have of ancient elves would come from the same sources we use.

Second, using "rediscovered" implies nothing of the sort. If, right now, civilization were to collapse and a thousand years from now our descendents rediscovered say...how to make cars, that doesn't mean cars used to be inherent to the humans condition. It just means that these wasteland survivors would have rediscovered how we made them.

I said it implied not prove and it does imply this no matter how much you might wish otherwise.  It's also known that spirits do communicate with each other and do have means of knowing things that other beings don't.  It this proof?  No, but I never claimed it was proof.  Does it imply what I said?  Yes it does.

Thus you can not say with any degree of certainty that the Dalish were not provoked.  Only that (per Ilen) that they struck first and that is not at all the same thing.

Nor can you say that they were. Are pre-emptive strikes now acceptable?
Because when Templars do the same they are accused of villainy.

No.  The Templars are accused of Villiany because they engage in genocide on some very shakey premises indeed.  Pre-emption has long been considered an acceptable option in warfare if the circumstances permitted and it was deemed necessary.

We don't know if those conditions existed, but we don't know that they didn't either. 

For example if you see a country putting it's nuclear missiles on ready alert and you have confirmed intelligence that this country is in the final stages of it's count-down AND you see it's bombers heading towards your airspace, is pre-emption a valid option?

I think so.  For that matter I think most would.

Again, we don't know if the Dalish were faced with this choice, but we don't know that they weren't either, and given the very violent nature of the Clayne (and other) tribes in Fereldan during that period, it seems at least likely that the strike was valid preemption.

IanPolaris wrote...
"If A then B" does NOT imply "If B then
A".  Just because bloodmagic can be used to extend lifespan or even a
form of immortality does not imply that all forms of immortality
come from bloodmagic.  For example, we know the Darkspawn are immortal
just because.

The Darkspawn are immortal because the Taint sustains them which is magical in nature and, through Corypheus,
has connections with blood sacrifices. What we've certainly seen no example of is biological immortality. Much less one that is diminished simply by close proximity with another species.

Actually the best evidence we have from the Dwarves is that the blight and the Darkspawn came before Cory, and indeed the city was already black and corrupt.  The taint ==/== bloodmagic no matter how much the Chantry might like to claim otherwise.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
I said it implied not prove and it does imply this no matter how much you might wish otherwise.  It's also known that spirits do communicate with each other and do have means of knowing things that other beings don't.  It this proof?  No, but I never claimed it was proof.  Does it imply what I said?  Yes it does.

It doesn't imply that because of the aforementione reasons.

I think so.  For that matter I think most would.

Oh, I don't disagree. I am a strong believer in preemptive action which is exactly why I support the templars.

Actually the best evidence we have from the Dwarves is that the blight and the Darkspawn came before Cory,

Not really. We know that the dwarves only encountered the first Darkspawn after the rise of Tevinter.

indeed the city was already black and corrupt.

Debatable. It could have been corrupted the instant they set foot in it. Or it could have already been corrupted.

The taint ==/== bloodmagic no matter how much the Chantry might like to claim otherwise.

The Chantry never claimed that blood magic is the same as the Taint neither did. However, we do know Corypheus and his fellow Magisters are strongly related to the Taint, they might have actually created or unleashed it. And we know that they used blood magic to reach the Black City thus connecting the two.
A method of transportation might be all that the blood magic was but until that is confirmed, the possibility still exists,

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I said it implied not prove and it does imply this no matter how much you might wish otherwise.  It's also known that spirits do communicate with each other and do have means of knowing things that other beings don't.  It this proof?  No, but I never claimed it was proof.  Does it imply what I said?  Yes it does.

It doesn't imply that because of the aforementione reasons.

I think so.  For that matter I think most would.

Oh, I don't disagree. I am a strong believer in preemptive action which is exactly why I support the templars.

What the Templars do and what the Chantry allows them to do is a High Human Rights Crime (Genocide).  It is far from pre-emptive action.  In fact most often human rights abuses are justified by citing security or preemption, and it's that that gives preemption a bad name.

Actually the best evidence we have from the Dwarves is that the blight and the Darkspawn came before Cory,

Not really. We know that the dwarves only encountered the first Darkspawn after the rise of Tevinter.

The Dwarves were fighting darkspawn before the Black City incident.

indeed the city was already black and corrupt.

Debatable. It could have been corrupted the instant they set foot in it. Or it could have already been corrupted.

Cory was pretty clear.  The city wasn't golden and became corrupt.  It WAS corrupt when they got there.

The taint ==/== bloodmagic no matter how much the Chantry might like to claim otherwise.

The Chantry never claimed that blood magic is the same as the Taint neither did. However, we do know Corypheus and his fellow Magisters are strongly related to the Taint, they might have actually created or unleashed it. And we know that they used blood magic to reach the Black City thus connecting the two.
A method of transportation might be all that the blood magic was but until that is confirmed, the possibility still exists,

In that case you completely cede the argument since tainted creatures (ghouls and darkspawn) are immortal and that isn't blood-magic.

The point is that you made a claim that any elven immortality had to be because of bloodmagic and you've rather spectacularly failed to show any such thing.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
What the Templars do and what the Chantry allows them to do is a High Human Rights Crime (Genocide).  It is far from pre-emptive action.  In fact most often human rights abuses are justified by citing security or preemption, and it's that that gives preemption a bad name.

If some of us were being randomly born with the ability to set others on fire with their minds willingly or not, we would have a very different concept of human right.
They are necessary security measures. Nothing more

The Dwarves were fighting darkspawn before the Black City incident.

None of the codex entries tells us exactly when the dwarves encountered the first Darkspawn. However, the History of Orzammar part one by Shaper Czibor (So you know it's not "Chantry Propaganda") places the rise of Tevinter chronologically before the first Genlocks. Therefore, the timeline fits the Chantry version.

Cory was pretty clear.  The city wasn't golden and became corrupt.  It WAS corrupt when they got there.

Corypheus doesn't even know what year it is.
Personally, I think the City was already corrupted; altough I'd place the blame of the previous Magisters who destroyed Arlathan so, it's still the fault of the mages; but it's still too soon to say with all certainty that the Golden City was not tainted by Corypheus and his ilk.

In that case you completely cede the argument since tainted creatures (ghouls and darkspawn) are immortal and that isn't blood-magic.

The point is that you made a claim that any elven immortality had to be because of bloodmagic and you've rather spectacularly failed to show any such thing.

The claim that I made was that all forms of immortality seen in the series were only possible through magic; either through pure blood magic suchas Zathrian and the Baroness or simply related to it such as Corypheus; which holds true.
What we have seen nothing of in the series yet is biological immortality and thus, there is little reason to believe the ancient elves were any more long lived than those in the Dragon Age except, possibly, through the use of magic.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 février 2013 - 12:41 .

[dragonflight288]

Oh, I don't disagree. I am a strong believer in preemptive action which is exactly why I support the templars.

By that logic, we can easily say that 'since the templars are going to kill us for the high crime of existing, we should preemptively strike them first and hopefully wipe out every single templar and templar-sympathetic chantry priest before they kill us first.'

It's almost like the saying 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' Eventually everyone will be blind and toothless.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
By that logic, we can easily say that 'since the templars are going to kill us for the high crime of existing, we should preemptively strike them first and hopefully wipe out every single templar and templar-sympathetic chantry priest before they kill us first.'

Is that not what the mages are doing right now?

It's almost like the saying 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' Eventually everyone will be blind and toothless.

Blame the Maker. He made this whole mess.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

By that logic, we can easily say that 'since the templars are going to kill us for the high crime of existing, we should preemptively strike them first and hopefully wipe out every single templar and templar-sympathetic chantry priest before they kill us first.'

Is that not what the mages are doing right now?

The mages emancipated themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Varric points out the templars rebelled to hunt down the mages.

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's almost like the saying 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' Eventually everyone will be blind and toothless.

Blame the Maker. He made this whole mess. 

The Dalish would disagree.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mages emancipated themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Varric points out the templars rebelled to hunt down the mages.

So, for fear of previous abuses, they have chosen to take action against the mundanes to prevent future ones.
And how is that any different from what the mundanes of Southern Thedas have been doing for the past millenia? It's just another turn in the circle of violence. Win or lose, mundanes and mages will fight again in the future.

The Dalish would disagree.

Blame whatever god you wish,

[dragonflight288]

So, for fear of previous abuses, they have chosen to take action against the mundanes to prevent future ones.
And how is that any different from what the mundanes of Southern Thedas have been doing for the past millenia? It's just another turn in the circle of violence. Win or lose, mundanes and mages will fight again in the future.

There's nothing that says the mages are persecuting, oppressing, or attacking people. They declared themselves independent, and the templars declared them unfit to even be allowed to live by virtue of it of their independence. The templars are committing genocide, and the mages are fighting in self-defense. There's no evidence whatsoever that the mages as a collective whole, are attacking anyone.

But in the end, war by its very nature, is ultimately destructive and it's the little guy who'll feel the pain by being caught in the cross fire. Were I to choose a side, I would seek the swiftest end to the war possible so as to minimize the damage. I believe everyone should be given some level of independence and freedom, including mages, but with that freedom comes a certain amount of personal responsibility, and are thus held accountable for everything they do or don't do. But in a war, well, there's a saying. "All is fair in love and war."

I would do almost anything to end the war quickly, which I'll probably do as the Inquisitor, and I'll make my judgements based on individual circumstances and what's best for everyone as a whole.

Again, there's no evidence that the mages, save a few pockets of extremists, are pushing the fighting and are advocating it. It's the templars who demand the mages be killed or tranquilized for the high crime of being born as mages.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Again, there's no evidence that the mages, save a few pockets of extremists, are pushing the fighting and are advocating it. It's the templars who demand the mages be killed or tranquilized for the high crime of being born as mages.

By advocating separation fron the Chantry they are advocating a fight. In fact, that was the term used in the last chapter of Asunder, "fight".
What there is no evidence of is of templars killing any and all mages. People are just assuming that the templars have decided to execute all mages when there is nothing that indicates it.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Again, there's no evidence that the mages, save a few pockets of extremists, are pushing the fighting and are advocating it. It's the templars who demand the mages be killed or tranquilized for the high crime of being born as mages.

By advocating separation fron the Chantry they are advocating a fight. In fact, that was the term used in the last chapter of Asunder, "fight".
What there is no evidence of is of templars killing any and all mages. People are just assuming that the templars have decided to execute all mages when there is nothing that indicates it.

The templar leadership and the Lord High Seeker seek genocide. Cassandra said it right that not everyone wants war. I actually don't want it either. But the templars as a whole are preparing to kill all the mages, and the mages are preparing to fight to the death in self-defense. And a lot of innocents will be hurt or killed in the crossfire.

The fact that Lambert declared the Nevarra Accord to be void and the templars have rebelled against the Chantry just so they can hunt mages, shows that it's the templar order as a whole and the Seekers who seek war. I have no doubt that there will be instances in the coming war where I'll happily feel like the templars in the right when I'm staring an evil mage in the face, exploiting the situation for his/her own gain. And when I see the templars doing wrong, I'll happily side with the mages.

As it stands, at this moment in Thedas History, I feel like the mages as a whole have a moral highground above the templars. And should Inquisition show otherwise, and show them collectively abusing the freedom they declared for themselves, then I'll happily work to punish those who are guilty.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Again, there's no evidence that the mages, save a few pockets of extremists, are pushing the fighting and are advocating it. It's the templars who demand the mages be killed or tranquilized for the high crime of being born as mages.

By advocating separation fron the Chantry they are advocating a fight. In fact, that was the term used in the last chapter of Asunder, "fight".
What there is no evidence of is of templars killing any and all mages. People are just assuming that the templars have decided to execute all mages when there is nothing that indicates it.

How dare those well cared for slaves demand their freedom.  How dare they!  That is basically what you are saying.  You are blaming mages for wanting the same human rights (a concept that does exist in Thedas) and the same consideration that the Maker supposedly grants all his children that everyone else has.

No one reasonable is saying that magic shouldn't be regulated, but that doesn't include blaming those born with magic (which is what you are doing).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

What the Templars do and what the Chantry allows them to do is a High Human Rights Crime (Genocide).  It is far from pre-emptive action.  In fact most often human rights abuses are justified by citing security or preemption, and it's that that gives preemption a bad name.

If some of us were being randomly born with the ability to set others on fire with their minds willingly or not, we would have a very different concept of human right.
They are necessary security measures. Nothing more

Except the Chantry of Andraste preaches that their military arm has "dominion" over mages because it's their "divine right", and we hear at the Landsmeet that interfering in the duties of a templar is an "offense against the Maker". A system that lasted nearly a millennia, where mages were forced to live in servitude to the Chantry. It's this tyranny that mages emancipated themselves from, because most of them wanted to live their lives free of subjugation from a religious organization that has - for generations - vilified and controlled them.

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Dwarves were fighting darkspawn before the Black City incident.

None of the codex entries tells us exactly when the dwarves encountered the first Darkspawn. However, the History of Orzammar part one by Shaper Czibor (So you know it's not "Chantry Propaganda") places the rise of Tevinter chronologically before the first Genlocks. Therefore, the timeline fits the Chantry version.

Interestingly, Czibor's account makes no mention of any sentient or 'awakened' darkspawn like Corypheus. If the City was already Black prior to the arrival of Corypheus and his associates, it opens up the possibility that the corrupted Magisters weren't the first darkspawn.

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Cory was pretty clear.  The city wasn't golden and became corrupt.  It WAS corrupt when they got there.

Corypheus doesn't even know what year it is.
Personally, I think the City was already corrupted; altough I'd place the blame of the previous Magisters who destroyed Arlathan so, it's still the fault of the mages; but it's still too soon to say with all certainty that the Golden City was not tainted by Corypheus and his ilk.

While it's true that Corypheus is confused about where he is, he also expresses his confusion that the City was already Black, considering he sought "the Light".

As for your second point, Corypheus already contradicts the Chantry version by saying that the City was already Black, and Czibor's historical account makes no mention of the first darkspawn encountered looking anything like Corypheus.

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In that case you completely cede the argument since tainted creatures (ghouls and darkspawn) are immortal and that isn't blood-magic.

The point is that you made a claim that any elven immortality had to be because of bloodmagic and you've rather spectacularly failed to show any such thing. 

The claim that I made was that all forms of immortality seen in the series were only possible through magic; either through pure blood magic suchas Zathrian and the Baroness or simply related to it such as Corypheus; which holds true.
What we have seen nothing of in the series yet is biological immortality and thus, there is little reason to believe the ancient elves were any more long lived than those in the Dragon Age except, possibly, through the use of magic. 

Except we already have the developers acknowledge that the Dalish live much longer lives than their city counterparts, and we have Keeper Marethari and Master Ilen (or possibly his father, given the presence of the latter at the war with the Clayne) as two examples of particularly long-lived Dalish elves.

[TEWR]

Not really. We know that the dwarves only encountered the first Darkspawn after the rise of Tevinter.

Who were Genlocks, Darkspawn born from the tainted monstrosity that is Dwarven broodmothers. We know that Corypheus is an Awakened Darkspawn -- much like Archie Archibold -- and that they are unable to hear the call of the Old Gods. This is what Awakening tells us, where the Architect and all Awakened Darkspawn are immune to it by virtue of their sapience/sentience.

Factor in the things the Primeval Thaig brings about and there's more evidence to suggest the PT Dwarves are related to the emergence of Darkspawn then the Magisters are.

What Corypheus and his ilk constitute are the first Awakened Darkspawn, but not the first Darkspawn in existence.

[Dabrikishaw]

Honestly I was glad I got to kill the clan, they did nothing but ****** me off the entire game and it was very cathartic to tell Merril to keep working on the mirror afterwards.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The templar leadership and the Lord High Seeker seek genocide.

There is absolutely nothing that indicates this. At all.
In the last chapter of Asunder, Lambert talks of extablishing new Circle, not killing everyone. We haven't met a single rebellious templar yet. There is no ground whatsoever to claim that Lambert or anyone is looking to kill all mages.

The fact that Lambert declared the Nevarra Accord to be void and the templars have rebelled against the Chantry just so they can hunt mages, shows that it's the templar order as a whole and the Seekers who seek war.

The templars can't well ignore hundreds of biological weapons walking around in Thedas. Personally, I'd have liked to avoid the war as well but that became impossible the moment they voted for separation. Some mages like Rhys can be talked to but I very much doubt mages like Adrian are willing to sit down, talk, make concessions.
I certainly can't blame the templars for rebelling when the Divine sabotaged their efforts. Obviously, they can't trust her.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Who were Genlocks, Darkspawn born from the tainted monstrosity that is Dwarven broodmothers. We know that Corypheus is an Awakened Darkspawn -- much like Archie Archibold -- and that they are unable to hear the call of the Old Gods. This is what Awakening tells us, where the Architect and all Awakened Darkspawn are immune to it by virtue of their sapience/sentience.

The Chantry claims that the Magisters fled underground upon return to the physical plane wich matchs the dwarven belief that the first Spawn came from the Stone.
Corypheus and the Architect are nearly invincible so, if a group of dwarves encountered any of them in the Deep Roads, they would have either been destroyed or captured for experimentation ergo there would be no one to bright news to the Thaigs of human-looking monstrosities. This is in accordance to the "History of Orzammar: Chapter One" who makes mention of lost travelers before the first Genlocks were encountered.
Any captured female dwarves would have been experimented upon thus creating the first Broodmothers who would give birth to the first Genlocks. These Genlocks would be encountered by dwarven patrols and slain with news of their existence brought back to Kal-Sharok thus, the first darkspawn encountered by the dwarves would have still been Genlocks without necessarely them being the first Darkspawn to have ever existed.

Factor in the things the Primeval Thaig brings about and there's more evidence to suggest the PT Dwarves are related to the emergence of Darkspawn then the Magisters are.

Such as?

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
How dare those well cared for slaves demand their freedom.  How dare they!  That is basically what you are saying.  You are blaming mages for wanting the same human rights (a concept that does exist in Thedas) and the same consideration that the Maker supposedly grants all his children that everyone else has.

Mages are not slaves. It is true, however, that their living conditions are perfectly acceptable in two out of three Circles we have seen.

It's really, really nice to think of all people as equal. Yelling "For Freedom" feels certainly better than "It's sad but it must be done". And, likewise, we can feel much better about ourselves if we feel that we are fighting for a society where all will be free and equal and there will be puppies crapping rainbows.
But that's not life. That's not reality. That's not people, people look out for number one.
Mundanes and mages are not born equal, they can never be equal. Either one side will take prevalence or the other will. I've simply chosen my side.

No one reasonable is saying that magic shouldn't be regulated, but that doesn't include blaming those born with magic (which is what you are doing).

I blame those mages voted to separate from the Chantry, those who decided to start a war. No one else.
I don't blame children born with magic. I, as a human with no magic, accept that they pose a threat that challenges description to me and mine and that logic dictates that those who pose such a threat must have their freedoms more restricted than those who do not.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The templar leadership and the Lord High Seeker seek genocide.

There is absolutely nothing that indicates this. At all.
In the last chapter of Asunder, Lambert talks of extablishing new Circle, not killing everyone. We haven't met a single rebellious templar yet. There is no ground whatsoever to claim that Lambert or anyone is looking to kill all mages.

You do realize that the goal of the Order of Inquisition was the elimination of all mages in Thedas, right?  You do know that, right?  By renouncing the Nevarran accord he (Lambert) is outright advocating genocide.  Frankly the Circle system (esp the taking away of infants from mage mothers) is also Genocide under the definition of the term.

The fact that Lambert declared the Nevarra Accord to be void and the templars have rebelled against the Chantry just so they can hunt mages, shows that it's the templar order as a whole and the Seekers who seek war.

The templars can't well ignore hundreds of biological weapons walking around in Thedas. Personally, I'd have liked to avoid the war as well but that became impossible the moment they voted for separation. Some mages like Rhys can be talked to but I very much doubt mages like Adrian are willing to sit down, talk, make concessions.
I certainly can't blame the templars for rebelling when the Divine sabotaged their efforts. Obviously, they can't trust her.

Funny that you can't prove this.  The whole Templar argument boils down to "mages are too dangerous to be free because they might stub their toes and have a bad hair demon day".  The problem is that if this claim is examined with any sort of logical scrutiny it is revealed to be the utter bunk that it is.  If mages were really so dangers as the Templars would have us believe, then there is no way that humanity would have survived let alone rose to great civilizations all while having mages living alongside mundanes.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Who were Genlocks, Darkspawn born from the tainted monstrosity that is Dwarven broodmothers. We know that Corypheus is an Awakened Darkspawn -- much like Archie Archibold -- and that they are unable to hear the call of the Old Gods. This is what Awakening tells us, where the Architect and all Awakened Darkspawn are immune to it by virtue of their sapience/sentience.

The Chantry claims that the Magisters fled underground upon return to the physical plane wich matchs the dwarven belief that the first Spawn came from the Stone.
Corypheus and the Architect are nearly invincible so, if a group of dwarves encountered any of them in the Deep Roads, they would have either been destroyed or captured for experimentation ergo there would be no one to bright news to the Thaigs of human-looking monstrosities. This is in accordance to the "History of Orzammar: Chapter One" who makes mention of lost travelers before the first Genlocks were encountered.
Any captured female dwarves would have been experimented upon thus creating the first Broodmothers who would give birth to the first Genlocks. These Genlocks would be encountered by dwarven patrols and slain with news of their existence brought back to Kal-Sharok thus, the first darkspawn encountered by the dwarves would have still been Genlocks without necessarely them being the first Darkspawn to have ever existed.

Again, the problem is that the Chantry's version falls apart under any kind of logical scrutiny.  Given the strength of the Dwarven Empire (at least as strong as both Arlathan and Ancient Tevinter) and given the sheer scope of the Deep Roads, even with Darkspawn breeding rates, there simply isn't enough TIME between when the magisters stormed the golden/black city to the time that the Dwarves encountered Darkspawn in large numbers  The logistics don't work.

Factor in the things the Primeval Thaig brings about and there's more evidence to suggest the PT Dwarves are related to the emergence of Darkspawn then the Magisters are.

Such as?

Consider that the tainted Lyrium Idol seems to especially affect dwarves, and consider that many of the same properties that we associate with darkspawn could also be seen in Bartrand and other affected people.  It isn't proof positive but it's darn sure suggestive.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
How dare those well cared for slaves demand their freedom.  How dare they!  That is basically what you are saying.  You are blaming mages for wanting the same human rights (a concept that does exist in Thedas) and the same consideration that the Maker supposedly grants all his children that everyone else has.

Mages are not slaves. It is true, however, that their living conditions are perfectly acceptable in two out of three Circles we have seen.

It's really, really nice to think of all people as equal. Yelling "For Freedom" feels certainly better than "It's sad but it must be done". And, likewise, we can feel much better about ourselves if we feel that we are fighting for a society where all will be free and equal and there will be puppies crapping rainbows.
But that's not life. That's not reality. That's not people, people look out for number one.
Mundanes and mages are not born equal, they can never be equal. Either one side will take prevalence or the other will. I've simply chosen my side.

I denounce and reject this utterly.  It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.  If you see no option but to enslave other human beings to secure your own security, then you don't deserve life itself.  I believe that very strongly.  I find what you just wrote utterly abhorrent.

No one reasonable is saying that magic shouldn't be regulated, but that doesn't include blaming those born with magic (which is what you are doing).

I blame those mages voted to separate from the Chantry, those who decided to start a war. No one else.
I don't blame children born with magic. I, as a human with no magic, accept that they pose a threat that challenges description to me and mine and that logic dictates that those who pose such a threat must have their freedoms more restricted than those who do not.

Yes, how dare human beings demand that they be treated with human dignity. The outrage of it all...and how dare they actually follow chantry law in doing this!

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
You do realize that the goal of the Order of Inquisition was the elimination of all mages in Thedas, right?

You do realize that we hacve no idea the role the Inquisition is going to play in  DAI, right? We might even be its leader.

By renouncing the Nevarran accord he (Lambert) is outright advocating genocide.

You have zero basis to claim that. None whatsoever, Lambert never showed any desire to kill all mages. In fact, you can see a genuine interest to protect mages from the killer of the White Spire in Asunder.
If I tried to claim that by rebelling, the mage leadership wants to extablish a new Tevinter exactly like the old one, you'd call me out. So, I'll do the same.

Funny that you can't prove this.  The whole Templar argument boils down to "mages are too dangerous to be free because they might stub their toes and have a bad hair demon day".  The problem is that if this claim is examined with any sort of logical scrutiny it is revealed to be the utter bunk that it is.  If mages were really so dangers as the Templars would have us believe, then there is no way that humanity would have survived let alone rose to great civilizations all while having mages living alongside mundanes.

The arguments of pro-templars don't boil down to what you claim. Abominations are just one of the many problems magic creates. Lambert, for instance, is far more concerned about mages becoming the ruling class than he is about abominations and so am I.
You're being disingenious on purpose.

IanPolaris wrote...
Again, the problem is that the Chantry's
version falls apart under any kind of logical scrutiny.  Given the
strength of the Dwarven Empire (at least as strong as both Arlathan and
Ancient Tevinter) and given the sheer scope of the Deep Roads, even with
Darkspawn breeding rates, there simply isn't enough TIME between when
the magisters stormed the golden/black city to the time that the Dwarves
encountered Darkspawn in large numbers  The logistics don't work.

We don't know the speed at which broodmothers pop out darkspawn or even if they are born as babies or as fully grown adults ready to tear someone's face out. Also, take into account that given the much higher number of dwarven women back then, the number of broodmothers would have also been higher.

IanPolaris wrote...
It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Platitude.

If
you see no option but to enslave other human beings to secure your own
security, then you don't deserve life itself.  I believe that very
strongly.  I find what you just wrote utterly abhorrent.

Must you reduce everything to the simplistic terms of "slavery"?
Tell me, are elves in Andrastean nations slaves? No, they have all the freedoms and rights of humans. Are they equal? Not even bloody close. When a group of people takes the reins of power, those considered different are always opressed. Always! All you have to do, is look towards the Alienage to see the future of mundanes should mages be free. And that is at its best. At worst, it will be another Tevinter.
That's the human species. Deal with it.

Yes, how dare human beings demand that they be treated with human dignity.

They are treated with dignity. They don't have as much freedom as mundanes but mages are treated as people.
I don't blame those in quarantine for being infected but I still wish them separated from my people so they can't harm us.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 février 2013 - 08:03 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
You do realize that the goal of the Order of Inquisition was the elimination of all mages in Thedas, right?[/quote]
You do realize that we hacve no idea the role the Inquisition is going to play in  DAI, right? We might even be its leader.
[/quote]

Read the Codex.  There was an Order of Inquisition that was absorbed by the Chantry via the Nevarran accords.  Prior to this, their goal WAS the elimination of all mages on Thedas.  By renouncing the Nevarran accord, Lambert is advocating a return to this policy.


[quote]

[quote]By renouncing the Nevarran accord he (Lambert) is outright advocating genocide.[/quote]You have zero basis to claim that. None whatsoever, Lambert never showed any desire to kill all mages. In fact, you can see a genuine interest to protect mages from the killer of the White Spire in Asunder.
If I tried to claim that by rebelling, the mage leadership wants to extablish a new Tevinter exactly like the old one, you'd call me out. So, I'll do the same.
[/quote]

Lambert has absolutely no basis for this except his own fears.  For that matter locking people away for what they are rather than what they have done IS genocide by definition.  He also makes it pretty damn clear that as far as he's concerned the only good mage is a dead one (now that Tranquil can be reversed).

[quote]
[quote]

Funny that you can't prove this.  The whole Templar argument boils down to "mages are too dangerous to be free because they might stub their toes and have a bad hair demon day".  The problem is that if this claim is examined with any sort of logical scrutiny it is revealed to be the utter bunk that it is.  If mages were really so dangers as the Templars would have us believe, then there is no way that humanity would have survived let alone rose to great civilizations all while having mages living alongside mundanes.
[/quote]
The arguments of pro-templars don't boil down to what you claim. Abominations are just one of the many problems magic creates. Lambert, for instance, is far more concerned about mages becoming the ruling class than he is about abominations and so am I.
You're being disingenious on purpose.
[/quote]

Of course they do.  The only basis for Templars confining mages to circles is the claim that an unguarded mage will become an abomination and destroy the community.   The Chantry does not preach fear of mages becoming the ruling class.  They (in the Chantry) might believe that, but that isn't the message to the pews.  This actually makes the circle sysem even more henious.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Again, the problem is that the Chantry's
version falls apart under any kind of logical scrutiny.  Given the
strength of the Dwarven Empire (at least as strong as both Arlathan and
Ancient Tevinter) and given the sheer scope of the Deep Roads, even with
Darkspawn breeding rates, there simply isn't enough TIME between when
the magisters stormed the golden/black city to the time that the Dwarves
encountered Darkspawn in large numbers  The logistics don't work.[/quote]

We don't know the speed at which broodmothers pop out darkspawn or even if they are born as babies or as fully grown adults ready to tear someone's face out. Also, take into account that given the much higher number of dwarven women back then, the number of broodmothers would have also been higher.
[/quote]

We know how fast darkspawn recover between blights.  Your numbers don't work.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.[/quote]
Platitude.
[/quote]

You would say that. 

[quote]
[quote]If
you see no option but to enslave other human beings to secure your own
security, then you don't deserve life itself.  I believe that very
strongly.  I find what you just wrote utterly abhorrent.[/quote]
Must you reduce everything to the simplistic terms of "slavery"?
Tell me, are elves in Andrastean nations slaves? No, they have all the freedoms and rights of humans. Are they equal? Not even bloody close. When a group of people takes the reins of power, those considered different are always opressed. Always! All you have to do, is look towards the Alienage to see the future of mundanes should mages be free. And that is at its best. At worst, it will be another Tevinter.
That's the human species. Deal with it.
[/quote]

Actually in Orlais, the Elves may as well be slaves, and Fiona even comments that being a Elf Serf and a sexual slave was actually BETTER than life in the tower.  I think the comparison to slavery is apt, esp for tranquil mages.

[quote]
[quote]
Yes, how dare human beings demand that they be treated with human dignity.
[/quote]
They are treated with dignity. They don't have as much freedom as mundanes but mages are treated as people.
I don't blame those in quarantine for being infected but I still wish them separated from my people so they can't harm us.

[/quote]

Sure they are treated with dignity.  The mages asked to be beaten, whipped, and abused by the Tempalrs because everyone knows the Templars rule the mages from Divine Right.  Just ask dear Knight Capt Cullen.

-Polaris