546 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Read the Codex.  There was an Order of Inquisition that was absorbed by the Chantry via the Nevarran accords.  Prior to this, their goal WAS the elimination of all mages on Thedas.  By renouncing the Nevarran accord, Lambert is advocating a return to this policy.

Thousand years ago, completely different Thedas.
Again, when someone claims that free magic will lead to a new Tevinter, your usual response is different time and culture. And yet, you think that templars born in a completely different age will just emmulate the Inquisition as soon as the Nevarran Accord becomes null.

Lambert has absolutely no basis for this except his own fears.

Fears based on observed human behavior.

For that matter locking people away for what they are rather than what they have done IS genocide by definition.

Oh, would you shut the hell up about genocide? it's getting pretty damn annoying.
Mages are constantly being born, some to non-mages parents. They are not going to disapear.

Of course they do.  The only basis for Templars confining mages to circles is the claim that an unguarded mage will become an abomination and destroy the community.   The Chantry does not preach fear of mages becoming the ruling class.  They (in the Chantry) might believe that, but that isn't the message to the pews.  This actually makes the circle sysem even more henious.

Because you've actually assisted a sermon, yes?
Do you want me to bring up quotes of people affiliated to the Chantry who advise caution dealing with mages and make no mention of abominations?
Regardless, it's not important. We can tell that magic presents many more dangers beyond demonic possession which justify the Circle System.

We know how fast darkspawn recover between blights.  Your numbers don't work.

We don't even know how many darkspawn there are. As far as we know, they could fight a Blight with not interruptions for a thousand years if it wasn't for the lack of an Archdemon.

Actually in Orlais, the Elves may as well be slaves,

They have all the freedoms and rights of humans with some of them living better than humans.

Fiona even comments that being a Elf Serf and a sexual slave was actually BETTER than life in the tower.

Just as many mages live quite happy lives inside much worse towers. People have different opinions, what a shock.

I think the comparison to slavery is apt, esp for tranquil mages.

Mages have freedoms, rights, they work to provide for themselves, etc.
They are not slaves. Not even close.

Sure they are treated with dignity.  The mages asked to be beaten, whipped, and abused by the Tempalrs because everyone knows the Templars rule the mages from Divine Right.  Just ask dear Knight Capt Cullen.

Boy, the mages must have some bloody perfect record considering how many times you mage supporters like to point the faults of the Kirkwall Circle. They are sweet little angels who have never harmed a fly.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

You do realize that the goal of the Order of Inquisition was the elimination of all mages in Thedas, right?[/quote]

You do realize that we hacve no idea the role the Inquisition is going to play in  DAI, right? We might even be its leader. [/quote]

Given the behavior of the historical Inquisition, it makes the idea of naming a modern organization after the proto-templars all the more puzzling, especially since the protagonist can be a mage. Why name an organization after a group that hunted down mages and heretics centuries ago? It seems like the name would be polarizing, especially since it conjures up the history of a group that was reputed to have lead a "reign of terror" in it's wake (before being re-organized into the Order of Templars by Emperor Drakon).

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

By renouncing the Nevarran accord he (Lambert) is outright advocating genocide. [/quote]

You have zero basis to claim that. None whatsoever, Lambert never showed any desire to kill all mages. In fact, you can see a genuine interest to protect mages from the killer of the White Spire in Asunder.
If I tried to claim that by rebelling, the mage leadership wants to extablish a new Tevinter exactly like the old one, you'd call me out. So, I'll do the same. [/quote]

The mages sought emancipation from the Chantry and the templars, while Lambert sought to hunt down the free mages with the Seekers and templars who continued to follow his command. I can see where the emancipated mages would inevitably get killed by Lambert's forces because the mages didn't want to continue to live a life of servitude to the Chantry.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Funny that you can't prove this.  The whole Templar argument boils down to "mages are too dangerous to be free because they might stub their toes and have a bad hair demon day".  The problem is that if this claim is examined with any sort of logical scrutiny it is revealed to be the utter bunk that it is.  If mages were really so dangers as the Templars would have us believe, then there is no way that humanity would have survived let alone rose to great civilizations all while having mages living alongside mundanes. [/quote]

The arguments of pro-templars don't boil down to what you claim. Abominations are just one of the many problems magic creates. Lambert, for instance, is far more concerned about mages becoming the ruling class than he is about abominations and so am I.
You're being disingenious on purpose. [/quote]

There isn't any democracy in Thedas; there are rulers who govern because they are the nobility all across the continent. I really don't see the issue with having mages in leadership positions; we can have an example of a mage becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine through the mage protagonist who becomes the Hero of Ferelden, and he can be a popular leader with the right actions.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Again, the problem is that the Chantry's version falls apart under any kind of logical scrutiny.  Given the strength of the Dwarven Empire (at least as strong as both Arlathan and Ancient Tevinter) and given the sheer scope of the Deep Roads, even with Darkspawn breeding rates, there simply isn't enough TIME between when the magisters stormed the golden/black city to the time that the Dwarves encountered Darkspawn in large numbers  The logistics don't work.[/quote]

We don't know the speed at which broodmothers pop out darkspawn or even if they are born as babies or as fully grown adults ready to tear someone's face out. Also, take into account that given the much higher number of dwarven women back then, the number of broodmothers would have also been higher. [/quote]

It does suggest that the Chantry could be mistaken once again.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.[/quote]

Platitude. [/quote]

It seems to be the line of thought for mages who have decided to live free, even if it means their death, rather than continue to life of subjugation under the Chantry.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

If you see no option but to enslave other human beings to secure your own security, then you don't deserve life itself.  I believe that very strongly.  I find what you just wrote utterly abhorrent.[/quote]

Must you reduce everything to the simplistic terms of "slavery"?
Tell me, are elves in Andrastean nations slaves? No, they have all the freedoms and rights of humans. Are they equal? Not even bloody close. When a group of people takes the reins of power, those considered different are always opressed. Always! All you have to do, is look towards the Alienage to see the future of mundanes should mages be free. And that is at its best. At worst, it will be another Tevinter.
That's the human species. Deal with it. [/quote]

Except that's disproven by the non-Andrastian societies where mages live alongside non-mages, without the former subjugating the latter.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Yes, how dare human beings demand that they be treated with human dignity. [/quote]

They are treated with dignity. They don't have as much freedom as mundanes but mages are treated as people.
I don't blame those in quarantine for being infected but I still wish them separated from my people so they can't harm us. [/quote]

I respectfully disagree. We have seen how mages are treated. We see Andrastian mages like Keili and Bethany think they are cursed, because that's precisely what the Chantry teaches. We hear in the Gallows how the Circle mages can be beaten if they speak to civilians, and the tranquil proprietor is as well if someone steals one of her wares. An enviornment where they are being governed by armed and armored soldiers who have "dominion over [them] by divine right". People who are at risk of being made tranquil (and losing their humanity) without being able to defend themselves. I don't see that as treating mages with dignity.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Read the Codex.  There was an Order of Inquisition that was absorbed by the Chantry via the Nevarran accords.  Prior to this, their goal WAS the elimination of all mages on Thedas.  By renouncing the Nevarran accord, Lambert is advocating a return to this policy.[/quote]
Thousand years ago, completely different Thedas.
Again, when someone claims that free magic will lead to a new Tevinter, your usual response is different time and culture. And yet, you think that templars born in a completely different age will just emmulate the Inquisition as soon as the Nevarran Accord becomes null.
[/quote]

It is the SAME organization.  Thus saying that the nullification of the Nevarran accord is the reinstatement of the old Order of Inquisition with all the evils that implied is nothing other than the bald truth (whether the Templars choose to call themselves that or not).

[quote]
[quote]
Lambert has absolutely no basis for this except his own fears.[/quote]
Fears based on observed human behavior.
[/quote]

Fears based on a very limited set of observations in a land that is nothing like the rest of Thedas.  Fenris is exactly the same way in DA2.  I don't despise Fenris for feeling as he does about magic.  He has good reason to think this way, but it would be folly to generalize his experience to all magic and all mages.  Same applies to Lambert (a point that Lambert should recognize and doesn't).


[quote]


[quote]For that matter locking people away for what they are rather than what they have done IS genocide by definition.[/quote]
Oh, would you shut the hell up about genocide? it's getting pretty damn annoying.
Mages are constantly being born, some to non-mages parents. They are not going to disapear.
[/quote]

Look up the definition of Genocide.  The Circle system (esp the taking away of children from mage parents or mage children from parents) definately qualifies.  I will not shut up about it because anyone that supports the Circle System as it is or the Templars is supporting genocide.  Sorry but that's the simple truth of it.

[quote]
[quote]
Of course they do.  The only basis for Templars confining mages to circles is the claim that an unguarded mage will become an abomination and destroy the community.   The Chantry does not preach fear of mages becoming the ruling class.  They (in the Chantry) might believe that, but that isn't the message to the pews.  This actually makes the circle sysem even more henious.[/quote]
Because you've actually assisted a sermon, yes?
Do you want me to bring up quotes of people affiliated to the Chantry who advise caution dealing with mages and make no mention of abominations?
Regardless, it's not important. We can tell that magic presents many more dangers beyond demonic possession which justify the Circle System.
[/quote]

When the Templars attempt to get the help of mundanes to hunt mages or when the Templars are asked why mages have to be locked up, they ALWAYS say "To keep us safe from them"  The risk of abomination is the go-to justification for the circle system.  The fear of a second Tevinter is very real in Chantry circles especially, but it isn't used to justify the system to the public.  Fear of mages (and how they are monsters) is.  We see this explicitly many times during both games.

[quote]
[quote]
We know how fast darkspawn recover between blights.  Your numbers don't work.[/quote]
We don't even know how many darkspawn there are. As far as we know, they could fight a Blight with not interruptions for a thousand years if it wasn't for the lack of an Archdemon.
[/quote]

We know it can be at least a decade before the Darkroads become fully reinfested with Darkspawn (see Nathaniel's quest in DA2 if Architect is killed).  We also know that this is with a full complement of broodmothers breeding and we know that (as ghouls) Broodmothers have an indefinate lifespan and being big and immobile aren't lost or sent on blights.

Now go back.  If the Chantry's tale were true, the Blighted Magisters would have to find dwarf women, abduct them, convert them, and then have them birth enough darkspawn all in less than a hundred years?

Laughable.  It is far more likely that the Darkspawn already existed and a lot of the recent lore (see the Primeaval Thaig) strongly suggest it.

[quote]
[quote]
Actually in Orlais, the Elves may as well be slaves,[/quote]
They have all the freedoms and rights of humans with some of them living better than humans.
[/quote]

No they don't.  The life of an Orlesian Serf (esp an elf) is effectively legal slavery.  Serfs in Orlais have no rights.


[quote]


[quote]Fiona even comments that being a Elf Serf and a sexual slave was actually BETTER than life in the tower.[/quote]
Just as many mages live quite happy lives inside much worse towers. People have different opinions, what a shock.
[/quote]

Funny how the mages themselves don't say this. 


[quote]


[quote]I think the comparison to slavery is apt, esp for tranquil mages.[/quote]
Mages have freedoms, rights, they work to provide for themselves, etc.
They are not slaves. Not even close.
[/quote]

Tranquil don't.  As for mages, they have all the rights the Knight Commander is willing to allow them.  Well guess what....if you have to look to the Knight Commander (or anyone) for your human rights, then you don't have them.  So no mages don't have human rights in the circle system.  They are prisoners where some prison-wardens (Knight Commanders) are nicer than others.


[quote]
[quote]
Sure they are treated with dignity.  The mages asked to be beaten, whipped, and abused by the Tempalrs because everyone knows the Templars rule the mages from Divine Right.  Just ask dear Knight Capt Cullen.[/quote]
Boy, the mages must have some bloody perfect record considering how many times you mage supporters like to point the faults of the Kirkwall Circle. They are sweet little angels who have never harmed a fly.

[/quote]

Actually we get consistant and persistant reports of abuses from Templars in ALL the circles we hear about (even the Ferelden one).  Kirkwall may be the worst case, but it's not unique.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 15 février 2013 - 04:45 .

[MisterJB]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
It is the SAME organization.  Thus saying that the nullification of the Nevarran accord is the reinstatement of the old Order of Inquisition with all the evils that implied is nothing other than the bald truth (whether the Templars choose to call themselves that or not).[/quote]
A thousand years later. Do you think that the Catholic Church of today is the same as of a thousand years ago? Are we still burning witches on the street, I hadn't noticed.

[quote]
Fears based on a very limited set of observations in a land that is nothing like the rest of Thedas.  Fenris is exactly the same way in DA2.  I don't despise Fenris for feeling as he does about magic.  He has good reason to think this way, but it would be folly to generalize his experience to all magic and all mages.  Same applies to Lambert (a point that Lambert should recognize and doesn't).[/quote]
People will be people with all the faults that entails.
To think that mages in Andrastean cultures will not look towards number one and that they are immune to the corruption of power is ridiculous. The way it manifests will be different but it will be there.
Just look at the elves. They are still subjugated by humans. In a different manner, sure, but they are certainly no equals.


[quote]
Look up the definition of Genocide.  The Circle system (esp the taking away of children from mage parents or mage children from parents) definately qualifies.  I will not shut up about it because anyone that supports the Circle System as it is or the Templars is supporting genocide.  Sorry but that's the simple truth of it.[/quote]
Mages are born randomly, people who never had magic in their blood can suddenly give birth to a mage child. It's literally impossible to commit genocide against mages.

[quote]
When the Templars attempt to get the help of mundanes to hunt mages or when the Templars are asked why mages have to be locked up, they ALWAYS say "To keep us safe from them"  The risk of abomination is the go-to justification for the circle system.  The fear of a second Tevinter is very real in Chantry circles especially, but it isn't used to justify the system to the public.  Fear of mages (and how they are monsters) is.  We see this explicitly many times during both games.[/quote]
And stopping them from taking power wouldn't be "keeping us safe from them"? The Chantry uses abominations, yes, but also the simple reality of there being mages who would abuse their power to justify the Circle system. We see it explicitly many times during the game, I can give you examples of letters adressed to nobles or simply those affiliated with the Chantry talking about the dangers of magic beyond Abominations.
And even if they did, that is 100% irrelevant. We know mages are dangerous well beyond the risk of becoming an Abomination.

[quote]
We know it can be at least a decade before the Darkroads become fully reinfested with Darkspawn (see Nathaniel's quest in DA2 if Architect is killed). We also know that this is with a full complement of broodmothers breeding and we know that (as ghouls) Broodmothers have an indefinate lifespan and being big and immobile aren't lost or sent on blights.[/quote]
We have seen two instances of Grey Wardens clearing nests of Broodmothers, presumably, the Legion of the Dead would consider killing them a priority as well. In fact, they would take advantage in times of Blight where the nests should be relatively unprotected.

[quote]Now go back.  If the Chantry's tale were true, the Blighted Magisters would have to find dwarf women, abduct them, convert them, and then have them birth enough darkspawn all in less than a hundred years?

Laughable.  It is far more likely that the Darkspawn already existed and a lot of the recent lore (see the Primeaval Thaig) strongly suggest it.[/quote]
Same as before, we don't know how long is the gestation period of a darkspawn, how many are per batch usually or even if they require a period of growth before they are ready to kill.
Besides, a population will grow at the exact rate the writers wish it to grow. You'd think after a thousand years with only two dwarven cities left they'd be all inbred monsters but that is not the case.

[quote]
No they don't.  The life of an Orlesian Serf (esp an elf) is effectively legal slavery.  Serfs in Orlais have no rights.[/quote]
And you base this on...what exactly?

[quote]
Funny how the mages themselves don't say this.[/quote]
Bethany, Finn, Wynne, Ella (after Ser Alrik is dead), etc.

[quote]
Tranquil don't.[/quote]
Tranquils have the same rights and freedoms. They just don't know how to use them.

[quote] As for mages, they have all the rights the Knight Commander is willing to allow them.  Well guess what....if you have to look to the Knight Commander (or anyone) for your human rights, then you don't have them.  So no mages don't have human rights in the circle system.  They are prisoners where some prison-wardens (Knight Commanders) are nicer than others.[/quote]
And you think that if an king or emperor decides to take some rights away, the peasants will not be at their mercy? That the mages are alone in being subject to others? Bah.

[quote]
Actually we get consistant and persistant reports of abuses from Templars in ALL the circles we hear about (even the Ferelden one).  Kirkwall may be the worst case, but it's not unique.[/quote]
No, we don't. Kirkwall was quite unique in its blantant disregard of the laws of the Chantry.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
It is the SAME organization.  Thus saying that the nullification of the Nevarran accord is the reinstatement of the old Order of Inquisition with all the evils that implied is nothing other than the bald truth (whether the Templars choose to call themselves that or not).[/quote]
A thousand years later. Do you think that the Catholic Church of today is the same as of a thousand years ago? Are we still burning witches on the street, I hadn't noticed.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church had to undergo two major Schisms and at a full hundred years war that cost the lives of at least 100 million germans (during a time when the world's population was far less than a billion) to get there.  The Chantry in the past thousand years has never had to really take a hard look at itself and reform and neither have the Templars.  Lambert's own actions damn both him and the Seekers/Templars as returning to exactly the same reign of terror that they left off in 1.33 of the Divine Age.

[quote]
[quote]
Fears based on a very limited set of observations in a land that is nothing like the rest of Thedas.  Fenris is exactly the same way in DA2.  I don't despise Fenris for feeling as he does about magic.  He has good reason to think this way, but it would be folly to generalize his experience to all magic and all mages.  Same applies to Lambert (a point that Lambert should recognize and doesn't).[/quote]
People will be people with all the faults that entails.
To think that mages in Andrastean cultures will not look towards number one and that they are immune to the corruption of power is ridiculous. The way it manifests will be different but it will be there.
Just look at the elves. They are still subjugated by humans. In a different manner, sure, but they are certainly no equals.
[/quote]

You assume all mages are the same.  They are not.  Mages are as different psychologically from each other as much as anyone else.  Some will desire power, but then again many mundanes already do.  You have not made the case that having mages seek power is intrinsically worse than having anyone else do so....nor have you shown that other mages won't try to at least mitigate it.  You are automatically relegating mages as 'nonhuman' monsters that have to be locked away, and I find that view abhorrent.

There is no reason to think that some mages along with some mundanes can't responsibly regulate magic, and indeed the history of Thedas and the presence of non-Andrastian civilizations and cultures that allow mages to live alongside non-mages argues that they can.

[quote]
[quote]
Look up the definition of Genocide.  The Circle system (esp the taking away of children from mage parents or mage children from parents) definately qualifies.  I will not shut up about it because anyone that supports the Circle System as it is or the Templars is supporting genocide.  Sorry but that's the simple truth of it.[/quote]
Mages are born randomly, people who never had magic in their blood can suddenly give birth to a mage child. It's literally impossible to commit genocide against mages.
[/quote]

That has nothing to do with the definition of genocide.  Look it up.  If locking away people becasue they had blue eyes is genocide (and it is), then so is this.

[quote]
[quote]
When the Templars attempt to get the help of mundanes to hunt mages or when the Templars are asked why mages have to be locked up, they ALWAYS say "To keep us safe from them"  The risk of abomination is the go-to justification for the circle system.  The fear of a second Tevinter is very real in Chantry circles especially, but it isn't used to justify the system to the public.  Fear of mages (and how they are monsters) is.  We see this explicitly many times during both games.[/quote]
And stopping them from taking power wouldn't be "keeping us safe from them"? The Chantry uses abominations, yes, but also the simple reality of there being mages who would abuse their power to justify the Circle system. We see it explicitly many times during the game, I can give you examples of letters adressed to nobles or simply those affiliated with the Chantry talking about the dangers of magic beyond Abominations.
And even if they did, that is 100% irrelevant. We know mages are dangerous well beyond the risk of becoming an Abomination.
[/quote]

Yes we hear it, but that isn't used to justify the circle system.  The go-to justification for the circle system is demon-possession, yet...oddly...we are never provided any proof that the problem is as great as the Chantry would have us believe or that the circle system actually solves it....and we see a lot of annecdotal evidence that suggests the opposite.

[quote]
[quote]
We know it can be at least a decade before the Darkroads become fully reinfested with Darkspawn (see Nathaniel's quest in DA2 if Architect is killed). We also know that this is with a full complement of broodmothers breeding and we know that (as ghouls) Broodmothers have an indefinate lifespan and being big and immobile aren't lost or sent on blights.[/quote]
We have seen two instances of Grey Wardens clearing nests of Broodmothers, presumably, the Legion of the Dead would consider killing them a priority as well. In fact, they would take advantage in times of Blight where the nests should be relatively unprotected.
[/quote]

You would have to know where they are.  The Deep Roads are vast.  Not only that, but the number of Dwarves (and LotD) is very small for the ground and darkspawn they'd have to kill and a Broodmother would probably take out a full company easy (at least).

[quote]
[quote]Now go back.  If the Chantry's tale were true, the Blighted Magisters would have to find dwarf women, abduct them, convert them, and then have them birth enough darkspawn all in less than a hundred years?

Laughable.  It is far more likely that the Darkspawn already existed and a lot of the recent lore (see the Primeaval Thaig) strongly suggest it.[/quote]
Same as before, we don't know how long is the gestation period of a darkspawn, how many are per batch usually or even if they require a period of growth before they are ready to kill.
Besides, a population will grow at the exact rate the writers wish it to grow. You'd think after a thousand years with only two dwarven cities left they'd be all inbred monsters but that is not the case.
[/quote]

Now you are looking to the writers to try to bail you out.  I am not saying as a fact that the Chantry's story is false, but it has some very severe logistical and logical problems.


[quote]
[quote]
No they don't.  The life of an Orlesian Serf (esp an elf) is effectively legal slavery.  Serfs in Orlais have no rights.[/quote]
And you base this on...what exactly?
[/quote]

Pretty much all the source material on Orlais including the commentary of the people from there.


[quote]
[quote]
Funny how the mages themselves don't say this.[/quote]
Bethany, Finn, Wynne, Ella (after Ser Alrik is dead), etc.
[/quote]

Actually Finn doesn't say anything good about the circle.  Finn just hates being outside.  Wynne fully admits that the circle is a prison and badly needs to be reformed.  Ella only says this after you FORCE her back into the circle and given how Kirkwall Templars moniter letters, anything she writes is dubious at best.  Bethany comes out against the circle system as it is and the Templars as it is, and even calls Meredith a monster in the end.   Actually my attitude is like Bethany's.  A magical education and place in society should be required, and magical regulation is needed for everyone (esp mages), but that doesn't excuse treating mages as non-people.

In short none of your examples hold any water.


[quote]
[quote]
Tranquil don't.[/quote]
Tranquils have the same rights and freedoms. They just don't know how to use them.
[/quote]

Which is the logical equivalent of not having them.  If you take away a person's freewill, then you have taken away their freedoms.  Even DG has admitted that the issue of tranquil mages and slavery is (at best for the Chantry) a troubling one).


[quote]

[quote] As for mages, they have all the rights the Knight Commander is willing to allow them.  Well guess what....if you have to look to the Knight Commander (or anyone) for your human rights, then you don't have them.  So no mages don't have human rights in the circle system.  They are prisoners where some prison-wardens (Knight Commanders) are nicer than others.[/quote]
And you think that if an king or emperor decides to take some rights away, the peasants will not be at their mercy? That the mages are alone in being subject to others? Bah.
[/quote]

A king or emperor is ultimately answerable to his people.  The Chantry is answerable to no-one save a "Maker" who is so-conveniently absent.

[quote]
[quote]
Actually we get consistant and persistant reports of abuses from Templars in ALL the circles we hear about (even the Ferelden one).  Kirkwall may be the worst case, but it's not unique.[/quote]
No, we don't. Kirkwall was quite unique in its blantant disregard of the laws of the Chantry.

[/quote]

No it wasn't.  See Lambert.  For that matter Jowan was convicted without any chance to defend himself (and that was torture gear we saw in the Templar section of the Ferelden circle).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
The Catholic Church had to undergo two major Schisms and at a full hundred years war that cost the lives of at least 100 million germans (during a time when the world's population was far less than a billion) to get there.  The Chantry in the past thousand years has never had to really take a hard look at itself and reform and neither have the Templars.  Lambert's own actions damn both him and the Seekers/Templars as returning to exactly the same reign of terror that they left off in 1.33 of the Divine Age.[/quote]
The Andrastean Chantry has suffered a schism and has been involved in cultural wars with the qunari and the Black Chantry.
The Divine did not intervene in Asunder because innocent mages were about to be killed, there's no reason to believe the rebellious templars will act anything like the Inquisition of old other than a distate for Lambert.

[quote]
You assume all mages are the same.  They are not.  Mages are as different psychologically from each other as much as anyone else.  Some will desire power, but then again many mundanes already do.  You have not made the case that having mages seek power is intrinsically worse than having anyone else do so....nor have you shown that other mages won't try to at least mitigate it.  You are automatically relegating mages as 'nonhuman' monsters that have to be locked away, and I find that view abhorrent.[/quote]
That's not what I'm saying at all. Don't put words in my mouth.
I don't think mages are inherently less trustworthy than mundanes. In fact, I've always claimed that give any of us that kind of power and we'd commit the exact same mistakes. It's human nature; we're self serving, we're greedy, we look out for number one. It's simply who we are.
When a group of people takes control over another, persecution and opression follows. How much have the magisters mitigated the suffering of the slaves? What human stepped in to stop Vaughan?

Mages have an inherent ability to take over the infrastructure of society. It's sad but true. Their abilities are just too useful not to. And when mages are the sole provider of all technology in Thedas, what will stop mundanes from becoming second class citizens?

I don't think mages are monsters, never did. I think they're human and that is what scares me.

[quote]and indeed the history of Thedas and the presence of non-Andrastian civilizations and cultures that allow mages to live alongside non-mages argues that they can.[/quote]
There is no culture where mages and mundanes lived as equals. Let's not start with the Dalish again.

[quote]
That has nothing to do with the definition of genocide.  Look it up.  If locking away people becasue they had blue eyes is genocide (and it is), then so is this.[/quote]
Mages are dangerous. Their freedoms are restricted to account for this. That is all.

[quote]
Yes we hear it, but that isn't used to justify the circle system.  The go-to justification for the circle system is demon-possession, yet...oddly...we are never provided any proof that the problem is as great as the Chantry would have us believe or that the circle system actually solves it....and we see a lot of annecdotal evidence that suggests the opposite.[/quote]
Yes, it is. Many times.

And it is obvious that the Circle System helps diminish the problem. By gathering all mages in the same place and have templars nearby, you reduce the exposure of civillians to any eventual abomination while increasing the speed of templar response.
It's true that some mages are driven into becoming abominations or using blood magic. by templars. However, templars are not the sole source of desperation in Thedas. There are innumerable situations in everyday life that could lead to a mage abusing his or her powers.

[quote]
Now you are looking to the writers to try to bail you out.  I am not saying as a fact that the Chantry's story is false, but it has some very severe logistical and logical problems.[/quote]
If we don't have any idea of how darkspawn logistics even work, we can't make the claim there is any logistical problems.


[quote]
Pretty much all the source material on Orlais including the commentary of the people from there.[/quote]
I have Leliana, Isabela and a wiki entry stating that Empress Celene is cracking down hard on slavers. What do you have?


[quote]
Actually Finn doesn't say anything good about the circle.  Finn just hates being outside.[/quote]
If he hates being outside, logic dictates he likes being inside the Circle.

[quote]Wynne fully admits that the circle is a prison and badly needs to be reformed.[/quote]
Wynne agrees that it is not perfect but also admits that templars are necessary and that there are many joys to be found in the Circle.
She even gave birth to the child of a templar.

[quote] Ella only says this after you FORCE her back into the circle and given how Kirkwall Templars moniter letters, anything she writes is dubious at best.[/quote]
Hawke doesn't force her, he advises her to go to which she replies that maybe Bethany is right and the Circle won't be so bad withour Alrik.

[quote]Bethany comes out against the circle system as it is and the Templars as it is, and even calls Meredith a monster in the end. [/quote]
No, Bethany has a problem with Meredith losing her mind and trying to kill everyone. She claims that she is quite content inside the Circle and not miserable at all.

[quote]Actually my attitude is like Bethany's. [/quote]

Clearly not.

[quote]A magical education and place in society should be required, and magical regulation is needed for everyone (esp mages), but that doesn't excuse treating mages as non-people.[/quote]
Mages are kept naked, chained to a wall and fed in a bowl.
They're treated like people, just ridiculously dangerous one.

[quote]
Which is the logical equivalent of not having them.  If you take away a person's freewill, then you have taken away their freedoms.  Even DG has admitted that the issue of tranquil mages and slavery is (at best for the Chantry) a troubling one).[/quote]
Tranquils have free will. They just rarely see a point in it.
Besides, Tranquility is a last resort.


[quote]
A king or emperor is ultimately answerable to his people.  The Chantry is answerable to no-one save a "Maker" who is so-conveniently absent.[/quote]
Answerable to his people? Through what? Revolution?
Mages are not defenseless children. In fact, they can defend themselves better than the great majority of mundane peasants.

[quote]
No it wasn't.  See Lambert.[/quote]
One person.

 [quote]For that matter Jowan was convicted without any chance to defend himself [/quote]
Because there was no way for him to defend himself. Jowan was 100% guilty, he was a blood mage. He was not abused in any way.

[quote](and that was torture gear we saw in the Templar section of the Ferelden circle).
[/quote]
So? The only people who we have ever heard of being tortured in Ferelden's circle were the templars at the hands of Uldred's "freedom fighters".

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
The Catholic Church had to undergo two major Schisms and at a full hundred years war that cost the lives of at least 100 million germans (during a time when the world's population was far less than a billion) to get there.  The Chantry in the past thousand years has never had to really take a hard look at itself and reform and neither have the Templars.  Lambert's own actions damn both him and the Seekers/Templars as returning to exactly the same reign of terror that they left off in 1.33 of the Divine Age.[/quote]
The Andrastean Chantry has suffered a schism and has been involved in cultural wars with the qunari and the Black Chantry.
The Divine did not intervene in Asunder because innocent mages were about to be killed, there's no reason to believe the rebellious templars will act anything like the Inquisition of old other than a distate for Lambert.
[/quote]

The Orlesian Chantry was never challenged.  They simply rejected the Tevinter interpretation (which honestly is more in keeping with the actual Chant of Light) and sent armies when Tevinter wouldn't back down.  As for the intentions of the Templars, Lambert's actions damn him.

[quote]
[quote]
You assume all mages are the same.  They are not.  Mages are as different psychologically from each other as much as anyone else.  Some will desire power, but then again many mundanes already do.  You have not made the case that having mages seek power is intrinsically worse than having anyone else do so....nor have you shown that other mages won't try to at least mitigate it.  You are automatically relegating mages as 'nonhuman' monsters that have to be locked away, and I find that view abhorrent.[/quote]
That's not what I'm saying at all. Don't put words in my mouth.
I don't think mages are inherently less trustworthy than mundanes. In fact, I've always claimed that give any of us that kind of power and we'd commit the exact same mistakes. It's human nature; we're self serving, we're greedy, we look out for number one. It's simply who we are.
When a group of people takes control over another, persecution and opression follows. How much have the magisters mitigated the suffering of the slaves? What human stepped in to stop Vaughan?
[/quote]

By that logic, all nobles should be locked away in concentration camps.  All people with a certain amount of wealth should be locked in concentration camps.  All people that are smarter than others should be locked in concentration camps.

Your logic doesn't work.

[quote]
Mages have an inherent ability to take over the infrastructure of society. It's sad but true. Their abilities are just too useful not to. And when mages are the sole provider of all technology in Thedas, what will stop mundanes from becoming second class citizens?
[/quote]

That is no more true than anyone else with inherent (or inherited) power and/or abiity.  You can make the same argument for nobles, for rich people, for just about anyone that dares to flourish or show ability above the norm.


[quote]
I don't think mages are monsters, never did. I think they're human and that is what scares me.
[/quote]

Again, if you think mages are human then they need to be treated as such.  No better and no worse.

[quote]

[quote]and indeed the history of Thedas and the presence of non-Andrastian civilizations and cultures that allow mages to live alongside non-mages argues that they can.[/quote]
There is no culture where mages and mundanes lived as equals. Let's not start with the Dalish again.
[/quote]

There are tons of examples where this is true.  Even in Andrastian societies it was true until 900 years ago.


[quote]
[quote]
That has nothing to do with the definition of genocide.  Look it up.  If locking away people becasue they had blue eyes is genocide (and it is), then so is this.[/quote]
Mages are dangerous. Their freedoms are restricted to account for this. That is all.
[/quote]

This is just like, "Freedom is precious.  So precious it must be rationed"--Iosef Stalin

You are using the exact same logic.

[quote]
[quote]
Yes we hear it, but that isn't used to justify the circle system.  The go-to justification for the circle system is demon-possession, yet...oddly...we are never provided any proof that the problem is as great as the Chantry would have us believe or that the circle system actually solves it....and we see a lot of annecdotal evidence that suggests the opposite.[/quote]
Yes, it is. Many times.
[/quote]

Prove it.

[quote]
And it is obvious that the Circle System helps diminish the problem. By gathering all mages in the same place and have templars nearby, you reduce the exposure of civillians to any eventual abomination while increasing the speed of templar response.
It's true that some mages are driven into becoming abominations or using blood magic. by templars. However, templars are not the sole source of desperation in Thedas. There are innumerable situations in everyday life that could lead to a mage abusing his or her powers.
[/quote]

Again it's not obvious to me at all, and everytime I ask for hard quantative proof from you, Lotion, or Emperor, or others, it is never forthcoming.  There is no evidence that says that the circles have made things better, and a lot of annecdotal evidence that strongly suggests (esp in Kirkwall) it's made things worse.

[quote]
[quote]
Now you are looking to the writers to try to bail you out.  I am not saying as a fact that the Chantry's story is false, but it has some very severe logistical and logical problems.[/quote]
If we don't have any idea of how darkspawn logistics even work, we can't make the claim there is any logistical problems.
[/quote]

Actually we do.  We know how long it takes after each blight for the Darkspawn to return to pre-blight levels and we know how extensive the Deep-Roads are (enormous) thanks to ancient Dwarven Maps.

[quote]
[quote]
Pretty much all the source material on Orlais including the commentary of the people from there.[/quote]
I have Leliana, Isabela and a wiki entry stating that Empress Celene is cracking down hard on slavers. What do you have?
[/quote]

Read all the codex entries concerning Orlais and the Ferelden revolt against Orlais.  They all agree that Serfs have no legal rights save only that they can not (directly) be bought and sold (and even that happens and THAT is what Celene is cracking down on).  I also note that Celene is remarkably liberal for an Orlesian Empress and is facing a revolt because of it.

[quote]
[quote]
Actually Finn doesn't say anything good about the circle.  Finn just hates being outside.[/quote]
If he hates being outside, logic dictates he likes being inside the Circle.
[/quote]

False.  It might mean he is simply agoraphobic and rubiphobic (and indeed Witch Hunt does show Finn as having mild versions of both phobias).  Your logic doesn't follow.


[quote]

[quote]Wynne fully admits that the circle is a prison and badly needs to be reformed.[/quote]
Wynne agrees that it is not perfect but also admits that templars are necessary and that there are many joys to be found in the Circle.
She even gave birth to the child of a templar.
[/quote]

Wynne has been a Chantry apologist from the start, but even she says the circle system is badly flawed and needs reform.  Just because one has a child by a templar (which was taken away against her will I might add) does NOT mean that one agrees with the Templars.

[quote]

[quote] Ella only says this after you FORCE her back into the circle and given how Kirkwall Templars moniter letters, anything she writes is dubious at best.[/quote]
Hawke doesn't force her, he advises her to go to which she replies that maybe Bethany is right and the Circle won't be so bad withour Alrik.
[/quote]

Erm, this is the same Hawk that just destroyed a full combat-platoon of Templars and stood down an abomination.  Of COURSE Hawke is forcing her.  It's called intimidation.

[quote]

[quote]Bethany comes out against the circle system as it is and the Templars as it is, and even calls Meredith a monster in the end. [/quote]
No, Bethany has a problem with Meredith losing her mind and trying to kill everyone. She claims that she is quite content inside the Circle and not miserable at all.
[/quote]

Play the mage ending and Bethany says something very different.


[quote]

[quote]Actually my attitude is like Bethany's. [/quote]

Clearly not.
[/quote]

Wrong...again.


[quote]

[quote]A magical education and place in society should be required, and magical regulation is needed for everyone (esp mages), but that doesn't excuse treating mages as non-people.[/quote]
Mages are kept naked, chained to a wall and fed in a bowl.
They're treated like people, just ridiculously dangerous one.
[/quote]

Mages are being forced to live in concentration camps because of what they are rather than what they have done.  That is NOT treating them like people and indeed dear Knight Captain Cullen says that mages can not be treated like people, and he is a templar *moderate*.

[quote]
[quote]
Which is the logical equivalent of not having them.  If you take away a person's freewill, then you have taken away their freedoms.  Even DG has admitted that the issue of tranquil mages and slavery is (at best for the Chantry) a troubling one).[/quote]
Tranquils have free will. They just rarely see a point in it.
Besides, Tranquility is a last resort.
[/quote]

Tranquils do exactly what they are told and have lost the self-will to disagree.  That is NOT freedom and can very realistically be considered a form of slavery.  Even DG admitted as much.

[quote]
[quote]
A king or emperor is ultimately answerable to his people.  The Chantry is answerable to no-one save a "Maker" who is so-conveniently absent.[/quote]
Answerable to his people? Through what? Revolution?
[/quote]

Ultimately yes. 

[quote]
Mages are not defenseless children. In fact, they can defend themselves better than the great majority of mundane peasants.
[/quote]

Actually most mages don't know any combat magic at all (or at least very little) and most mages are extremely weak compared with our PC and NPC mages.



[quote]
[quote]
No it wasn't.  See Lambert.[/quote]
One person.
[/quote]

Actually his mindset seems commonplace in the Templars.

 [quote]
[quote]For that matter Jowan was convicted without any chance to defend himself [/quote]
Because there was no way for him to defend himself. Jowan was 100% guilty, he was a blood mage. He was not abused in any way.
[/quote]

Until the last scene of the Mage Prologue, there was absolutely NO evidence for that.  Just unsubstantiated hearsay.  You do know that hearsay evidence is unreliable at best.  I am not saying let Jowan go scott-free, but he at *least* should have been able to defend himself against the charges leveled against him.  That is a right even the poorest commoner in Fereldan has (to have his case heard before the lord/magistrate and be given the opportunity to defend himself).


[quote]
[quote](and that was torture gear we saw in the Templar section of the Ferelden circle).
[/quote]
So? The only people who we have ever heard of being tortured in Ferelden's circle were the templars at the hands of Uldred's "freedom fighters".
[/quote]

Those freedom fighters didn't get that torture equipement on their own......

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
By that logic, all nobles should be locked away in concentration camps.  All people with a certain amount of wealth should be locked in concentration camps.  All people that are smarter than others should be locked in concentration camps.

Your logic doesn't work.[/quote]
Nobles usually belong to the same group as those they lord over. Humans form groups of those similar to us to ensure our survival and while abuses whitin groups exist, they are rarer than abuses commited against those we consider outside our group.

And, of course, the power that say, nobles detain comes only from our perception of where power resides. The power of a mage is quite real.

[quote]
That is no more true than anyone else with inherent (or inherited) power and/or abiity.  You can make the same argument for nobles, for rich people, for just about anyone that dares to flourish or show ability above the norm.[/quote]
The technology we have developed can be used and constructed by anyone. Certainly, some are born with a greater intelligence or aptitude but, technically, no doors are barred. People have been known to raise from poverty into wealth.
If all technology is magical based, then that elevates one entire class of people above others based on nothing but birth. Maybe you are willing to accept mundanes be relegated to second class in the name of "freedom" but I am not.


[quote]
Again, if you think mages are human then they need to be treated as such.  No better and no worse.[/quote]
Many humans are treated worse than others for many reasons, accidents of birth included.
That's life.

[quote]
There are tons of examples where this is true.  Even in Andrastian societies it was true until 900 years ago.[/quote]
There are not.


[quote]
This is just like, "Freedom is precious.  So precious it must be rationed"--Iosef Stalin
You are using the exact same logic.[/quote]
You and I have our freedoms restricted everyday so society can exist. That is the whole point of the legal system. Our freedoms are restricted not because of something we did but because of something we might do. Because we have the potential to be dangerous.
Since mages have a much, much greater potential for danger, the restrictions upon their freedoms must be much more harsh to reflect this. Treat equal what is equal and unequal what is unequal.

[quote]
Prove it.[/quote]
http://dragonage.wik...rding_Apostates

Here is a letter from Grand Cleric Francesca where she mentions the Tevinter Imperium as evidence mages can't rule themselves.
http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Maleficarum

Here is a sermon of Justina I where there is no mention of demons, only blood magic.

Grand Cleric Elthina says "magic allows for abuses far beyond the scope of mortals". Again, no mention of abominations. Meredith says "temptation preys at every mage" and "mages who seek power".

[quote]
Again it's not obvious to me at all, and everytime I ask for hard quantative proof from you, Lotion, or Emperor, or others, it is never forthcoming.  There is no evidence that says that the circles have made things better, and a lot of annecdotal evidence that strongly suggests (esp in Kirkwall) it's made things worse.[/quote]
The logic I used was flawless.

[quote]
Actually we do.  We know how long it takes after each blight for the Darkspawn to return to pre-blight levels and we know how extensive the Deep-Roads are (enormous) thanks to ancient Dwarven Maps.[/quote]
We don't know the number of broodmothers today compared to before the First Blight, we don't know the gestation period of the Spawn, the usual number per batch, if they require growing at all.

[quote]
Read all the codex entries concerning Orlais and the Ferelden revolt against Orlais.  They all agree that Serfs have no legal rights save only that they can not (directly) be bought and sold (and even that happens and THAT is what Celene is cracking down on).  I also note that Celene is remarkably liberal for an Orlesian Empress and is facing a revolt because of it.[/quote]
Which only means that elves are not slaves in Orlais under Celene. And we have no idea what the revolt is about.

[quote]
False.  It might mean he is simply agoraphobic and rubiphobic (and indeed Witch Hunt does show Finn as having mild versions of both phobias).  Your logic doesn't follow.[/quote]
True. Finn shows affections for certain aspects of Circle life, such as the library, and speaks openly and withput fear to templars.


[quote]
Wynne has been a Chantry apologist from the start, but even she says the circle system is badly flawed and needs reform.  Just because one has a child by a templar (which was taken away against her will I might add) does NOT mean that one agrees with the Templars.[/quote]
The point is not whether a mage believes that everything about the Circle is sunshines and puppies. The point is whether there are mages who like life in the Circle. Wynne obviously does.

[quote]
Erm, this is the same Hawk that just destroyed a full combat-platoon of Templars and stood down an abomination.  Of COURSE Hawke is forcing her.  It's called intimidation.[/quote]
Diplomatic Hawke doesn't intimidate anyone.

[quote]
Play the mage ending and Bethany says something very different.[/quote]
I have and beforehand I had just played Legacy where she defended the Circle before Anders. Clearly, the problem was Meredith going insane.

[quote]
Mages are being forced to live in concentration camps because of what they are rather than what they have done.  That is NOT treating them like people and indeed dear Knight Captain Cullen says that mages can not be treated like people, and he is a templar *moderate*.[/quote]

I suspect that if the Black Plague were to reappear, you'd be against the quarantine of those contaminated on the grounds that "inhuman".

[quote]
Tranquils do exactly what they are told and have lost the self-will to disagree.  That is NOT freedom and can very realistically be considered a form of slavery.  Even DG admitted as much.[/quote]
A Tranquil in Asunder went against the templars which proves they have frewill. Not using it often is not the same as not existing.

[quote]
Ultimately yes. [/quote]
Which mages can as well. They are in the same position regarding abuses of power.

[quote]
Actually most mages don't know any combat magic at all (or at least very little) and most mages are extremely weak compared with our PC and NPC mages.[/quote]
In Asunder, after Evangeline arrested Rhys, the mages grouped, protested and accomplished his released; despite the fact he was guilty; and this was under the strict Lambert.
Mages can take care of themselves just fine.



[quote]
Actually his mindset seems commonplace in the Templars.[/quote]
His mindset is fine. I just question his decisions.


 [quote]
Until the last scene of the Mage Prologue, there was absolutely NO evidence for that.  Just unsubstantiated hearsay.  You do know that hearsay evidence is unreliable at best.  I am not saying let Jowan go scott-free, but he at *least* should have been able to defend himself against the charges leveled against him.  That is a right even the poorest commoner in Fereldan has (to have his case heard before the lord/magistrate and be given the opportunity to defend himself).[/quote]
Just because Gregoir didn't bother showing a newly harrowed mage the evidence he had, that doesn't mean it didn't exist. Clearly, he was quite secure of Jowan's culpability and Gregoir is a just man who assumes innocent until proven guilty.
If, say, someone caught him red handed, literally, practicing blood magic there is nothing Jowan can say in his defense.


[quote]
Those freedom fighters didn't get that torture equipement on their own......
[/quote]
As far as we know, it was laying around in the basement and they brought it up.
The only people tortured in Ferelden's Circle were the templars.
The poor innocent mages.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
By that logic, all nobles should be locked away in concentration camps.  All people with a certain amount of wealth should be locked in concentration camps.  All people that are smarter than others should be locked in concentration camps.

Your logic doesn't work.[/quote]
Nobles usually belong to the same group as those they lord over. Humans form groups of those similar to us to ensure our survival and while abuses whitin groups exist, they are rarer than abuses commited against those we consider outside our group.
[/quote]

You are moving goalposts and you are wrong (as usual) anyway because mages are usually (indeed always) belong to the same group that they are foiund with.  For that matter nobility does not always belong to the same group they rule (see Orlesian occupation of Fereldan or the general human lordship over elves) and such abuse is far more comman and persasive than anything the mages might have done (save for the magisters who were ALSO nobles of a very nasty sort).

[quote]
And, of course, the power that say, nobles detain comes only from our perception of where power resides. The power of a mage is quite real.
[/quote]

The power that a noble has is quite real.  If you don't believe that you swing from the gallows.

[quote]
[quote]
That is no more true than anyone else with inherent (or inherited) power and/or abiity.  You can make the same argument for nobles, for rich people, for just about anyone that dares to flourish or show ability above the norm.[/quote]
The technology we have developed can be used and constructed by anyone. Certainly, some are born with a greater intelligence or aptitude but, technically, no doors are barred. People have been known to raise from poverty into wealth.
If all technology is magical based, then that elevates one entire class of people above others based on nothing but birth. Maybe you are willing to accept mundanes be relegated to second class in the name of "freedom" but I am not.
[/quote]

Not everyone is equally strong and thus capable of farming or war.  Does that mean that those that are should be locked away?  Not everyone can learn to read (at least well) [see Dyslexia].  Does that mean that those that can should be locked away.  For that matter some people are naturally gifted to the extent of having abilities far beyond their mortal kin.  The Grey Warden saga proves as much and many are quite mundane but are just as capable as any mage.  Does that mean we lock away anyone with exceptional ability?

No.  The only reason it applies to mages is because the Chantry wrongly magnifies the thread of possession to far greater lengths than the facts justify.

[quote]
[quote]
Again, if you think mages are human then they need to be treated as such.  No better and no worse.[/quote]
Many humans are treated worse than others for many reasons, accidents of birth included.
That's life.
[/quote]

Non mages are allowed (in theory anyway) to live where they like, marry who they like, keep and raise their children as they like, can't be lobotimized just because some armed religlious fantatic thug thinks like it, and more.  Yes mages are treated worse than everyone save perhaps Tevinter slaves.

[quote]
[quote]
There are tons of examples where this is true.  Even in Andrastian societies it was true until 900 years ago.[/quote]
There are not.
[/quote]

Sure there are and we've explained that numberous times.  Even Andrastian socieites worked just fine without circles until 900 years ago (and the circle was only started to stop a completely batty and insane Divine from declaring an exalted march against all mages).  There are the Dalish, Chasind, Avvar Tribes, Almarri tribes, Rivanni hill folk, and many, many other examples.  Indeed civilization couldn't have risen at all if the threat were anything like the Chantry wants to picture it.

[quote]
[quote]
This is just like, "Freedom is precious.  So precious it must be rationed"--Iosef Stalin
You are using the exact same logic.[/quote]
You and I have our freedoms restricted everyday so society can exist. That is the whole point of the legal system. Our freedoms are restricted not because of something we did but because of something we might do. Because we have the potential to be dangerous.
Since mages have a much, much greater potential for danger, the restrictions upon their freedoms must be much more harsh to reflect this. Treat equal what is equal and unequal what is unequal.
[/quote]

The freedoms still exist.  When freedoms are restrictied is is based on what people have done or can do (that legal system again).  What you are advocating is nothing less than the locking up of people in concentration camps because one in 10 thousand might be a spy (a la Internment of Japanese-Americans in WWII...and btw there really WERE Japanese-American spies and really DID do damage...but the internment was still a human rights crime).

You have no concept of reasonable restrictrictions (hint:  they are based not on what people are but what they do or might do).

[quote]
[quote]
Prove it.[/quote]
http://dragonage.wik...rding_Apostates

Here is a letter from Grand Cleric Francesca where she mentions the Tevinter Imperium as evidence mages can't rule themselves.
http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Maleficarum
[/quote]

The first text is standard Chantry propaganda and doesn't provide ANY proof at all.  Merely the Chantry assertion that if left unchecked a mage will resort to dark arts and that the risk of abomination is too great.  This is not proof, it's propaganda.  I note the source of this Codex entry is a Grand Cleric (gee suprise)

The second is more Chantry Propanda (written by a Divine) and identifies what kind of magic the Chantry considers to be Malificarum.  The Codex entry on Apostates also notes that all (perhaps even most) Apostates are NOT malificarum but the Chantry goes out of it's way to create the impression they are.

[quote]
Grand Cleric Elthina says "magic allows for abuses far beyond the scope of mortals". Again, no mention of abominations. Meredith says "temptation preys at every mage" and "mages who seek power".
[/quote]

They are talking about abominations since supposedly any time a mage has a bad day, they will automatically hand their life to a demon and *poof* suddenly become an abomination.  The only time we actually see that happening is Kirkwall where the Veil is paper-thin and even THEN only when the mage's life was in immediate danger.

[quote]
[quote]
Again it's not obvious to me at all, and everytime I ask for hard quantative proof from you, Lotion, or Emperor, or others, it is never forthcoming.  There is no evidence that says that the circles have made things better, and a lot of annecdotal evidence that strongly suggests (esp in Kirkwall) it's made things worse.[/quote]
The logic I used was flawless.
[/quote]

Quoting the Bible to prove the existance of God is begging the question.  You have essentially done the same.

[quote]
[quote]
Actually we do.  We know how long it takes after each blight for the Darkspawn to return to pre-blight levels and we know how extensive the Deep-Roads are (enormous) thanks to ancient Dwarven Maps.[/quote]
We don't know the number of broodmothers today compared to before the First Blight, we don't know the gestation period of the Spawn, the usual number per batch, if they require growing at all.
[/quote]

We know the worst case.  We know the Broodmothers had to come from somewhere and we know that the formation of broodmothers doesn't happen overnight.  I am not saying it's proof the Chantry is wrong, but it sure does suggest it.

[quote]
[quote]
Read all the codex entries concerning Orlais and the Ferelden revolt against Orlais.  They all agree that Serfs have no legal rights save only that they can not (directly) be bought and sold (and even that happens and THAT is what Celene is cracking down on).  I also note that Celene is remarkably liberal for an Orlesian Empress and is facing a revolt because of it.[/quote]
Which only means that elves are not slaves in Orlais under Celene. And we have no idea what the revolt is about.
[/quote]

If you have no rights, you may as well be a slave.  An Elven warden can point that out to Lels and she actually is forced to agree.

[quote]
[quote]
False.  It might mean he is simply agoraphobic and rubiphobic (and indeed Witch Hunt does show Finn as having mild versions of both phobias).  Your logic doesn't follow.[/quote]
True. Finn shows affections for certain aspects of Circle life, such as the library, and speaks openly and withput fear to templars.
[/quote]

Actually Finn is very concerned about how Templars would react to using blood as a component of a ritual.  Other than that, he doesn't express any attitude towards Templars at all.  That is not the same thing.

[quote]
[quote]
Wynne has been a Chantry apologist from the start, but even she says the circle system is badly flawed and needs reform.  Just because one has a child by a templar (which was taken away against her will I might add) does NOT mean that one agrees with the Templars.[/quote]
The point is not whether a mage believes that everything about the Circle is sunshines and puppies. The point is whether there are mages who like life in the Circle. Wynne obviously does.
[/quote]

Actually Wynne does NOT like it in the circle and she is quite open that it has to change, and will even agree with the Warden that the circle is a prison and oppressive.  That isn't someone happy with the Circle.  Wynne is deeply fearful of the Templars and Chantry and is afraid of the cost of rebellion.

[quote]
[quote]
Erm, this is the same Hawk that just destroyed a full combat-platoon of Templars and stood down an abomination.  Of COURSE Hawke is forcing her.  It's called intimidation.[/quote]
Diplomatic Hawke doesn't intimidate anyone.
[/quote]

Wrong.  Just because you speak in a nice voice doesn't mean you are less intimidating.  It just means you are less open about it.  What was Ella supposed to say?  "No, I want to be free?" to a person that could have her for breakfast easily (at least if Hawke were out of pancakes).  There is nothing about that. 

For that matter, if you let her go, she does write to you later when no one is looking over, and her attitude is quite different (and she is thankful she is not in the circle).

[quote]
[quote]
Play the mage ending and Bethany says something very different.[/quote]
I have and beforehand I had just played Legacy where she defended the Circle before Anders. Clearly, the problem was Meredith going insane.
[/quote]

Either you haven't or your memory is faulty.  What Bethany doesn't fault is a need for a place for mages to be educated to learn their powers (and hell pre-Justice Anders agrees with this in DAA!)  She feels that the circle has to be destroyed at the end so that something better can be made.

[quote]
[quote]
Mages are being forced to live in concentration camps because of what they are rather than what they have done.  That is NOT treating them like people and indeed dear Knight Captain Cullen says that mages can not be treated like people, and he is a templar *moderate*.[/quote]

I suspect that if the Black Plague were to reappear, you'd be against the quarantine of those contaminated on the grounds that "inhuman".
[/quote]

The black plague can be contained and controlled with known procedures.  I would most definately be against locking away people just because for the rest of their lives.  Yes it is inhuman.

[quote]
[quote]
Tranquils do exactly what they are told and have lost the self-will to disagree.  That is NOT freedom and can very realistically be considered a form of slavery.  Even DG admitted as much.[/quote]
A Tranquil in Asunder went against the templars which proves they have frewill. Not using it often is not the same as not existing.
[/quote]

An EX-Tanquil went against the Templars.  That is a big difference.  Tranquil do what they are told.  Ser Alrik even says (gloats in fact) as much.  Even DG has admitted that the loss of freewill with tranquil makes this a rite of very questionable morality.  For the record, tranquilling a mage for a high crime after a fair trial is one thing.  Doing it just because is something else again.


[quote]
[quote]
Ultimately yes. [/quote]
Which mages can as well. They are in the same position regarding abuses of power.
[/quote]

Yet you condemn then for taking this option.  Nice.

[quote]
[quote]
Actually most mages don't know any combat magic at all (or at least very little) and most mages are extremely weak compared with our PC and NPC mages.[/quote]
In Asunder, after Evangeline arrested Rhys, the mages grouped, protested and accomplished his released; despite the fact he was guilty; and this was under the strict Lambert.
Mages can take care of themselves just fine.
[/quote]

Political action does not mean powerful mages.  It is no evidence of anything of the sort except that Lambert was feeling the heat from his boss.


[quote]
[quote]
Actually his mindset seems commonplace in the Templars.[/quote]
His mindset is fine. I just question his decisions.
[/quote]

I question why someone with his psychosis and fear towards magic was allowed to reach such a high office.  The same goes for Knight Commander Meredith.


[quote]
 [quote]
Until the last scene of the Mage Prologue, there was absolutely NO evidence for that.  Just unsubstantiated hearsay.  You do know that hearsay evidence is unreliable at best.  I am not saying let Jowan go scott-free, but he at *least* should have been able to defend himself against the charges leveled against him.  That is a right even the poorest commoner in Fereldan has (to have his case heard before the lord/magistrate and be given the opportunity to defend himself).[/quote]
Just because Gregoir didn't bother showing a newly harrowed mage the evidence he had, that doesn't mean it didn't exist. Clearly, he was quite secure of Jowan's culpability and Gregoir is a just man who assumes innocent until proven guilty.
If, say, someone caught him red handed, literally, practicing blood magic there is nothing Jowan can say in his defense.
[/quote]

He didn't show Irving, the First Enchanter, that evidence either.   Jowan was not caught red-handed at anything.

[quote]
[quote]
Those freedom fighters didn't get that torture equipement on their own......
[/quote]
As far as we know, it was laying around in the basement and they brought it up.
The only people tortured in Ferelden's Circle were the templars.
The poor innocent mages.

[/quote]

If you go to the Tower basement, that torture equipment is used on mages by Templars, and we get numberous examples in the game of Templars beating and whipping mages for any (and sometimes no) offense (like outsiders stealing gear).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
You are moving goalposts and you are wrong (as usual) anyway because mages are usually (indeed always) belong to the same group that they are foiund with.[/quote]
Magic sets the distinction between them. Mages belong to one group, mundanes to other.

[quote]For that matter nobility does not always belong to the same group they rule (see Orlesian occupation of Fereldan or the general human lordship over elves) and such abuse is far more comman and persasive than anything the mages might have done (save for the magisters who were ALSO nobles of a very nasty sort).[/quote]
The fact that those nobles do not belong to the same group they lorded is one of the reasons they are opressive.

[quote]
The power that a noble has is quite real.  If you don't believe that you swing from the gallows.[/quote]
If society were to collapse, social structures like nobility and money would mean nothing.
The ability to shoot fire from your fingertips, tough...

[quote]
Not everyone is equally strong and thus capable of farming or war.  Does that mean that those that are should be locked away?  Not everyone can learn to read (at least well) [see Dyslexia].  Does that mean that those that can should be locked away.  For that matter some people are naturally gifted to the extent of having abilities far beyond their mortal kin.  The Grey Warden saga proves as much and many are quite mundane but are just as capable as any mage.  Does that mean we lock away anyone with exceptional ability?[/quote]
There is a huge difference between different people applying for different jobs and an entire class of people taking over the infrastructure of society and using it to lord over those born with no magic such as what Tevinter did.

[quote]
Non mages are allowed (in theory anyway) to live where they like, marry who they like, keep and raise their children as they like, can't be lobotimized just because some armed religlious fantatic thug thinks like it, and more.  Yes mages are treated worse than everyone save perhaps Tevinter slaves.[/quote]
Oh please, the people who are being clothed, fed, educated and housed in a place safe from bandits, war and darkspaw live worse than everyone. Right.
Excuse me, I save my concern for people with real problems.

[quote]
Sure there are and we've explained that numberous times.[/quote]
None of your examples holds a single drop of water. You mention societies whose stance on magic we know little to nothing about or mage supremacists societies.


[quote]
The freedoms still exist.  When freedoms are restrictied is is based on what people have done or can do (that legal system again). [/quote]

And guess what. Not only do mages still have freedoms but their freedoms are also restricted based on what they can and might do.


[quote]
The first text is standard Chantry propaganda and doesn't provide ANY proof at all.  Merely the Chantry assertion that if left unchecked a mage will resort to dark arts and that the risk of abomination is too great.  This is not proof, it's propaganda.  I note the source of this Codex entry is a Grand Cleric (gee suprise)

The second is more Chantry Propanda (written by a Divine) and identifies what kind of magic the Chantry considers to be Malificarum.  The Codex entry on Apostates also notes that all (perhaps even most) Apostates are NOT malificarum but the Chantry goes out of it's way to create the impression they are.[/quote]
Now you're changing subjects. The point was not whether the Chantry's fears are justified; they are; the point was whether the Chantry used something other than fear of possession to justify their preventive measures.
Clearly, they do.

[quote]
They are talking about abominations since supposedly any time a mage has a bad day, they will automatically hand their life to a demon and *poof* suddenly become an abomination.  The only time we actually see that happening is Kirkwall where the Veil is paper-thin and even THEN only when the mage's life was in immediate danger.[/quote]
No, they are not. There is not a single mention of abominations in those quotes.

[quote]
Quoting the Bible to prove the existance of God is begging the question.  You have essentially done the same.[/quote]
Mages can become an abomination, that is a fact.
If a mage becomes an abomination inside the tower, due to their isolation from society, the number of innocents the abominations will harm is thus greatly reduced and thanks to constant templar presence, their response will be much faster.
Desperation can lead to mages abusing their powers. But templars are not the only source of desperation in the world, therefore claiming that all mages need are equal rights to not be dangerous is false.

Where is the fault in that logic?

[quote]
If you have no rights, you may as well be a slave.  An Elven warden can point that out to Lels and she actually is forced to agree.[/quote]
No, Leliana admitted that there was a racism inherent to the system because, despite elves not being slaves and some living richer lives than humans, they are viewed as different from humans.
Racism doesn't equal slavery.

[quote]
Actually Finn is very concerned about how Templars would react to using blood as a component of a ritual.  Other than that, he doesn't express any attitude towards Templars at all.  That is not the same thing.[/quote]
He talks amicably to the templar replacing Gregoir and of course he will be afraid of people thinking he is a blood mage.

[quote]
Actually Wynne does NOT like it in the circle and she is quite open that it has to change, and will even agree with the Warden that the circle is a prison and oppressive.  That isn't someone happy with the Circle.  Wynne is deeply fearful of the Templars and Chantry and is afraid of the cost of rebellion.[/quote]
Wynne does in fact, like it in the Circle. She admits that it is not perfect but that there are many joys to be found in it and lessons to be learned.
She is one of the few good mages in Thedas, apparently.

[quote]
Wrong.  Just because you speak in a nice voice doesn't mean you are less intimidating.  It just means you are less open about it.  What was Ella supposed to say?  "No, I want to be free?" to a person that could have her for breakfast easily (at least if Hawke were out of pancakes).  There is nothing about that.  [/quote]
She shows no fear or resignation whatsoever when sent back to the Circle. She seems hopeful that Bethany is right and the Circle is not that bad without Ser Alrik.


[quote]
Either you haven't or your memory is faulty.  What Bethany doesn't fault is a need for a place for mages to be educated to learn their powers (and hell pre-Justice Anders agrees with this in DAA!)  She feels that the circle has to be destroyed at the end so that something better can be made.[/quote]
Which was caused by Meredith's ROA, nothing else since before that event, she was content with her life.

[quote]
The black plague can be contained and controlled with known procedures.  I would most definately be against locking away people just because for the rest of their lives.  Yes it is inhuman.[/quote]
Your naivety knows no bounds.

[quote]
An EX-Tanquil went against the Templars.[/quote]
Reread the book. When Leliana and Evangeline break into the White Spire, they are aided by a full blown Tranquil.

[quote]
Yet you condemn then for taking this option.  Nice.[/quote]
Because they threatne mundane society.

[quote]
Political action does not mean powerful mages.  It is no evidence of anything of the sort except that Lambert was feeling the heat from his boss.[/quote]
It means that mages are not helpless children who need to be rescued. There was solid evidence Rhys was at least an accomplice in the attempted murder of the Divine, there was no valid reason to free him.


[quote]
I question why someone with his psychosis and fear towards magic was allowed to reach such a high office.  The same goes for Knight Commander Meredith.[/quote]
Both of their views are extremely reasonable. I don't agree with all of their actions but that's it.


[quote]
He didn't show Irving, the First Enchanter, that evidence either.   Jowan was not caught red-handed at anything.[/quote]
You don't know what the evidence was. Clearly, it was quite valid since Jowan was, in fact, a blood mage.

[quote]
If you go to the Tower basement, that torture equipment is used on mages by Templars, and we get numberous examples in the game of Templars beating and whipping mages for any (and sometimes no) offense (like outsiders stealing gear).
[/quote]
Not in Ferelden or Orlais either.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

The Chantry claims that the Magisters fled underground upon return to the physical plane wich matchs the dwarven belief that the first Spawn came from the Stone.

Explain how five corrupted aberrations of men managed to sneak past an entire Dwarven empire that stretched all throughout Thedas. 

Explain how Corypheus and the Architect would even know where to search, when it's made clear they are both Awakened Darkspawn that are incapable of hearing the Call of the Old Gods -- which for mindless Darkspawn serves as a sort of beacon regarding their location.

And explain why Corypheus, who knows who the Dwarves are, would attack them. 

One thing that is curious however is that Corypheus' statement "Who are you? Slaves, then, to the Dwarves? Why seem their roads so empty?" indicate that the Dwarves practiced slavery at one point in time.

Any captured female dwarves would have been experimented upon thus creating the first Broodmothers who would give birth to the first Genlocks. These Genlocks would be encountered by dwarven patrols and slain with news of their existence brought back to Kal-Sharok thus, the first darkspawn encountered by the dwarves would have still been Genlocks without necessarely them being the first Darkspawn to have ever existed.

Except the only method of creating more Darkspawn doesn't involve "experimentation". It requires full-scale rape and feeding them tainted meat. Never mind that there isn't any indication that an Awakened Darkspawn even knows how to create a broodmother or would do this. They're still men, but Corypheus is oblivious to the idea that he's anything but a human, indicating he has no knowledge of what being a Darkspawn entails. He doesn't even know what era he's in currently -- though it should be said he can remember the era he lived in at the time in enough detail to talk about the events of that time.

So how would he know? Why would he experiment on the Dwarves?
 

Such as?

The red lyrium, which carries with it the same whispering noise that you hear in the Warden Joining, the Darkspawn's arrival to Ostagar, and the Reaver Joining. The common factor between those 3 things is a connection to Dragons.

Bartrand's comments on "hearing the Song again!" jive well with what we know of the Call of the Old Gods, where Darkspawn, Grey Wardens, Ghouls, and The Mother herself describe it as a song.

Malvernis, who carries with him a pestilence like that of the Darkspawn, was first discovered -- and defeated -- by the Dwarves. Dwarves that stood guard over Malvernis, but were not Grey Wardens themselves. Dwarves who have a line that is remarkably similar to part of the Grey Warden oath: This is the sacred duty that cannot be forsworn lest the Stone fall to poison and death.

The sacred duty that cannot be forsworn.

The fact that the Darkspawn actively avoid going into the Primeval Thaig, but will defend it to the death. 

Then, there's House Valdasine's codex entry where the Dwarven Empire, which wound throughout all the known world, was single-handedly kept supplied with lyrium by them and when they disappeared, everyone noticed. The codex implies that the entire mining family was worshipping something -- perhaps lyrium, like Bartrand did -- and this had something to do with their disappearance with no trace.

And as a side note about the PT, it had Golems resting inside of it, suggesting that the Dwarves found a means to create Golems well before Caridin's work. Caridin's notes actually suggest that he merely discovered the Anvil, which I'd theorize -- that along with Orzammar's nearby PT -- means Caridin never invented the Anvil but was guided there by the dreams and visions the Ancestors gave him.

What's interesting is that Red Lyrium -- or maybe just the lyrium idol itself, which not all Red Lyrium is -- seems to be able to bypass the need for a soul to create Golems, as the Dragon Age II Collector's Edition Guide tells us those statues were made into Golems.

MisterJB wrote...

Thousand years ago, completely different Thedas. 
Again, when someone claims that free magic will lead to a new Tevinter, your usual response is different time and culture. And yet, you think that templars born in a completely different age will just emmulate the Inquisition as soon as the Nevarran Accord becomes null.

It's different still. We've seen more evidence of Mages having gone from Tevinter material to benign would-be citizens, but haven't seen evidence in-game of there being more Templars that have developed a benign mindset over Mages and magic. 

We've seen more Templars that have a condemnation towards Mages and magic then we have people like Thrask, Gregoir, etc.

The Templars haven't evolved from their roots as the Inquisition, due in large part to how the Chantry recruits Templars more for their religious zeal then their moral center. Because following orders is more important then questioning their necessity or objecting and disregarding a superior's immoral orders.

However, this does not mean that they're incapable of evolving -- as Inquisition the game seems to point towards being possible.

We've seen the Mages living in a different culture and different time and we've seen how they display the change in mindset. The Templars haven't evolved, for the most part. Gregoir's men -- mostly -- and the Templar Knight-Commander that helps the Mages' Collective have shown a change. Evangeline, too.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

We don't know the speed at which broodmothers pop out darkspawn or even if they are born as babies or as fully grown adults ready to tear someone's face out. Also, take into account that given the much higher number of dwarven women back then, the number of broodmothers would have also been higher.

We know that a single broodmother can birth thousands of Darkspawn in her lifetime, though we do not know how long a "lifetime" is. For all we know it's 60 years, since their Taint is an incredibly advanced version.

We know that they do indeed have to "grow up" over time, as DG intimated that using the Children's larval stage as a baseline for what newborn regular Darkspawn look like wouldn't be too far off the mark.

However, the logistics still do not add up because Corypheus and his ilk were known to be allies of the Dwarves and would not attack them for any reason, much less would they even know where to begin their search -- since they cannot hear the Call of the Old Gods -- or would they even be able to sneak past an Empire in its prime. 

Plus, we also know that it took the Darkspawn centuries and centuries to build up their numbers between Blights. After the Fourth Blight, it took them 4 centuries to be able to have enough strength to threaten Thedas because so many of them were killed during said Blight. And this is accounting for all the different types of Broodmothers there are.

The Dwarves even recognized how the Fifth Blight had begun a decade prior to when the Grey Wardens brought the matter to the king of Ferelden.

MisterJB wrote...

As far as we know, they could fight a Blight with not interruptions for a thousand years if it wasn't for the lack of an Archdemon.

That's what the Dwarves consider the Eternal War to be. It's a neverending Blight.

Your nightmare is my everyday. -- Kardol

Stalata Negat also says the same thing.

MisterJB wrote...

You'd think after a thousand years with only two dwarven cities left they'd be all inbred monsters but that is not the case.

That's due in large part to how one can deduce that there are at least 100,000 Dwarven soldiers, given the cinematic showing thousands upon thousands of them marching to Denerim to fight the Blight and you can even hear from one Dwarven unit how the strength mustered isn't even the full force of Dwarven soldiers.

That's not even taking into account the numbers of the Casteless, Smiths, Merchants, Artisans, etc. Most of why they've lost ground is because the Darkspawn have resilience to take down many times their number -- one Hurlock is enough for a dozen soldiers -- and how disunified they've been in the preceding centuries, save for High King Bemot, Bhelen, and Xanthos =P.

Kal-Sharok, however, has either done cannibalism or inbreeding to survive. Or both. They did lose a lot of people to the Darkspawn.

I have Leliana, Isabela and a wiki entry stating that Empress Celene is cracking down hard on slavers. What do you have?

A few codex sources, the Orlesian woman's comments to an Elven Warden (the one brother saved her from rape by a Chevalier), and other things that paint a pretty grim picture of how the Elves live in Orlais.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2013 - 07:21 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
You are moving goalposts and you are wrong (as usual) anyway because mages are usually (indeed always) belong to the same group that they are foiund with.[/quote]
Magic sets the distinction between them. Mages belong to one group, mundanes to other.
[/quote]

That same argument could be used for blonds vs brunettes.  The point is that mages do not stop  being Orlesian, Fereldan, or whatever simply because they have magic.  So once again you are wrong.

[quote]

[quote]For that matter nobility does not always belong to the same group they rule (see Orlesian occupation of Fereldan or the general human lordship over elves) and such abuse is far more comman and persasive than anything the mages might have done (save for the magisters who were ALSO nobles of a very nasty sort).[/quote]
The fact that those nobles do not belong to the same group they lorded is one of the reasons they are opressive.
[/quote]

Oh, so nobles that want to dominate other lands should be placed in concentration camps.  I get it.


[quote]
[quote]
The power that a noble has is quite real.  If you don't believe that you swing from the gallows.[/quote]
If society were to collapse, social structures like nobility and money would mean nothing.
The ability to shoot fire from your fingertips, tough...
[/quote]

If, buts, candy and nuts.  The fact is the nobles have a lot of power of just the sort you are talking about (and would even if society were to collapse since they'd start with so much more in starting resources).  You can not admit that your so-called logic cuts both ways.

[quote]
[quote]
Not everyone is equally strong and thus capable of farming or war.  Does that mean that those that are should be locked away?  Not everyone can learn to read (at least well) [see Dyslexia].  Does that mean that those that can should be locked away.  For that matter some people are naturally gifted to the extent of having abilities far beyond their mortal kin.  The Grey Warden saga proves as much and many are quite mundane but are just as capable as any mage.  Does that mean we lock away anyone with exceptional ability?[/quote]
There is a huge difference between different people applying for different jobs and an entire class of people taking over the infrastructure of society and using it to lord over those born with no magic such as what Tevinter did.
[/quote]

It is only a difference of degree, not kind.  My point stands.

[quote]
[quote]
Non mages are allowed (in theory anyway) to live where they like, marry who they like, keep and raise their children as they like, can't be lobotimized just because some armed religlious fantatic thug thinks like it, and more.  Yes mages are treated worse than everyone save perhaps Tevinter slaves.[/quote]
Oh please, the people who are being clothed, fed, educated and housed in a place safe from bandits, war and darkspaw live worse than everyone. Right.
Excuse me, I save my concern for people with real problems.
[/quote]

How dare these well fed and cared for slaves/prisoners dare to rebel.  If you treat a group of people as sub-human and cursed, one should not be shocked to see less than amicable behavior from them.

[quote]
[quote]
Sure there are and we've explained that numberous times.[/quote]
None of your examples holds a single drop of water. You mention societies whose stance on magic we know little to nothing about or mage supremacists societies.
[/quote]

You are deliberately ignoring any possible counter-example.


[quote]
[quote]
The freedoms still exist.  When freedoms are restrictied is is based on what people have done or can do (that legal system again). [/quote]

And guess what. Not only do mages still have freedoms but their freedoms are also restricted based on what they can and might do.
[/quote]

No they aren't.  They are taken away because of a biological accident (that they are born with magic).  It would be like putting all green eyed people in concentration camps.  I note that even if one thinks a person might be in a high risk group (such as the Templar Recruit Keeran), you give a well define, and finate PROBATION period instead of pronoucing them guilty and tossing the key.  Apparently Templars that might be possessed get the benefit of hearings and a fair trail, but mages who have a much lower chance (in this situation) have no recourse whatsoever.

[quote]
[quote]
The first text is standard Chantry propaganda and doesn't provide ANY proof at all.  Merely the Chantry assertion that if left unchecked a mage will resort to dark arts and that the risk of abomination is too great.  This is not proof, it's propaganda.  I note the source of this Codex entry is a Grand Cleric (gee suprise)

The second is more Chantry Propanda (written by a Divine) and identifies what kind of magic the Chantry considers to be Malificarum.  The Codex entry on Apostates also notes that all (perhaps even most) Apostates are NOT malificarum but the Chantry goes out of it's way to create the impression they are.[/quote]
Now you're changing subjects. The point was not whether the Chantry's fears are justified; they are; the point was whether the Chantry used something other than fear of possession to justify their preventive measures.
Clearly, they do.

[quote]
They are talking about abominations since supposedly any time a mage has a bad day, they will automatically hand their life to a demon and *poof* suddenly become an abomination.  The only time we actually see that happening is Kirkwall where the Veil is paper-thin and even THEN only when the mage's life was in immediate danger.[/quote]
No, they are not. There is not a single mention of abominations in those quotes.
[/quote]

Losing Control == Become Abomination

[quote]
[quote]
Quoting the Bible to prove the existance of God is begging the question.  You have essentially done the same.[/quote]
Mages can become an abomination, that is a fact.
If a mage becomes an abomination inside the tower, due to their isolation from society, the number of innocents the abominations will harm is thus greatly reduced and thanks to constant templar presence, their response will be much faster.
Desperation can lead to mages abusing their powers. But templars are not the only source of desperation in the world, therefore claiming that all mages need are equal rights to not be dangerous is false.

Where is the fault in that logic?
[/quote]

First of all, there is no evidence that locking up mages has actually reduced the number or severity of abomination incidents outside the tower let alone in toto.  So in order for you to have a shred of ground to stand on, you have to SHOW that it works.

Secondly, desperation will lead anyone to abuse their powers, and you haven't shown that it's worse or more likely for mages than for anyone else.

Finally you haven't proven that the otherwise inhuman circle system is the only possible solution when the very existance of other societies without circles for most of history is proof positive that it isn't.

Not only that but again (see above) when the Templars of Kirkwall were forced with the possibility of their recruits being implanted with demons, they didn't lock away all the recruits and toss the keys.  Instead they quarantined them (put them on probabtion) with extra scrutiny for a set period of time and even then allowed said Templars fair hearings and the benefit of the doubt.

Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

[quote]
[quote]
If you have no rights, you may as well be a slave.  An Elven warden can point that out to Lels and she actually is forced to agree.[/quote]
No, Leliana admitted that there was a racism inherent to the system because, despite elves not being slaves and some living richer lives than humans, they are viewed as different from humans.
Racism doesn't equal slavery.
[/quote]

There are multiple sources that all say that the life of an Elf in Orlais isn't any better than slavery...the only difference is that you aren't explicitly owned (and a lot of Orlesian nobles even get around that).

[quote]
[quote]
Actually Finn is very concerned about how Templars would react to using blood as a component of a ritual.  Other than that, he doesn't express any attitude towards Templars at all.  That is not the same thing.[/quote]
He talks amicably to the templar replacing Gregoir and of course he will be afraid of people thinking he is a blood mage.
[/quote]

That doesn't mean he likes the circle system as it is.  It may mean nothing more than he has no issue with Ser Hadley personally.

[quote]
[quote]
Actually Wynne does NOT like it in the circle and she is quite open that it has to change, and will even agree with the Warden that the circle is a prison and oppressive.  That isn't someone happy with the Circle.  Wynne is deeply fearful of the Templars and Chantry and is afraid of the cost of rebellion.[/quote]
Wynne does in fact, like it in the Circle. She admits that it is not perfect but that there are many joys to be found in it and lessons to be learned.
She is one of the few good mages in Thedas, apparently.
[/quote]

Wynne says at many times the circle is oppressive and not ideal, but she is afraid of the cost in blood of having somethng better.  She does NOT like the circle system as it is.  Besides Wynne has been something of a Chantry apologist for day one.

[quote]
[quote]
Wrong.  Just because you speak in a nice voice doesn't mean you are less intimidating.  It just means you are less open about it.  What was Ella supposed to say?  "No, I want to be free?" to a person that could have her for breakfast easily (at least if Hawke were out of pancakes).  There is nothing about that.  [/quote]
She shows no fear or resignation whatsoever when sent back to the Circle. She seems hopeful that Bethany is right and the Circle is not that bad without Ser Alrik.
[/quote]

She is grateful to you for being alive.  Factor that in.

[quote]
[quote]
Either you haven't or your memory is faulty.  What Bethany doesn't fault is a need for a place for mages to be educated to learn their powers (and hell pre-Justice Anders agrees with this in DAA!)  She feels that the circle has to be destroyed at the end so that something better can be made.[/quote]
Which was caused by Meredith's ROA, nothing else since before that event, she was content with her life.
[/quote]

Actually if you read Bethany's letters, she finds a form of contentment but does say that the many of the Templars hold extreme views.  Also bear in mind that every letter Bethany writes is read by at least a couple of templars (and likely the Knight Commander) before you ever see it.  In the years during WWII, you would have thought that Buchanwald and other places were nice if somewhat grim places of necessity that weren't so bad if you read the letters from them.  Censorship and fear can work wonders that way.

[quote]
[quote]
The black plague can be contained and controlled with known procedures.  I would most definately be against locking away people just because for the rest of their lives.  Yes it is inhuman.[/quote]
Your naivety knows no bounds.
[/quote]

The disease model for magic has long since been raised here and debunked.  I also note that even with virulent communicable disease (which magic doesn't qualify as), there is a containment period and the patient's civil rights are carefully considered against the need of the population and quarantine is NOT a permanent condition.

[quote]
[quote]
An EX-Tanquil went against the Templars.[/quote]
Reread the book. When Leliana and Evangeline break into the White Spire, they are aided by a full blown Tranquil.
[/quote]

Tranquil do what they are told.  We are told this explicitly by a tranquil just before he is killed when he is given a very temporary releif from being tranquil. It's because the tranquil don't consider their life before and are essentially lobotomized.  Ser Alrik even boasts that tranquil mages "do what they are told".

[quote]
[quote]
Yet you condemn then for taking this option.  Nice.[/quote]
Because they threatne mundane society.
[/quote]

So you would shoot a dog for biting you after you kept on kicking it while it was in a corner.  That is what is happening here.

[quote]
[quote]
Political action does not mean powerful mages.  It is no evidence of anything of the sort except that Lambert was feeling the heat from his boss.[/quote]
It means that mages are not helpless children who need to be rescued. There was solid evidence Rhys was at least an accomplice in the attempted murder of the Divine, there was no valid reason to free him.
[/quote]

That judgement should have been made by a magistrate with evidence presented.  Not by a self-Important templar with no oversight.


[quote]
[quote]
I question why someone with his psychosis and fear towards magic was allowed to reach such a high office.  The same goes for Knight Commander Meredith.[/quote]
Both of their views are extremely reasonable. I don't agree with all of their actions but that's it.
[/quote]

You called Meredith reasonable.  I can't take anything else you say seriously.

[quote]
[quote]
He didn't show Irving, the First Enchanter, that evidence either.   Jowan was not caught red-handed at anything.[/quote]
You don't know what the evidence was. Clearly, it was quite valid since Jowan was, in fact, a blood mage.
[/quote]

Actually we do.  Supposedly it was "eye-witness testimony".  If you read "irving's Mistake" that eyewitness testimoney was probably from Senior Enchanter Uldred who would teach bloodmagic and then turn some in to make him look good (yeah, nice guy).  It doesn't diminish my point that Jowan deserved (esp living in Fereldan) to face his accuser.

[quote]
[quote]
If you go to the Tower basement, that torture equipment is used on mages by Templars, and we get numberous examples in the game of Templars beating and whipping mages for any (and sometimes no) offense (like outsiders stealing gear).
[/quote]
Not in Ferelden or Orlais either.

[/quote]

Actually in both.  You see the Templar tortore devices in the Fereldan tower during Broken circle as well as entries saying that the Templars forced mages to stop battle-magic/combat training.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

Adding into your guys's debate. My Warden faced more blood mages in one year during the blight than Hawke faced in five years in Kirkwall. The very problems the Circle is supposed to prevent actually grew exponentially during the three years Meredith had control of Kirkwall and started oppressing mages left and right.

That suggests a link that the original source of blood mage and abomination problems, well not original, wrong phrase, but rather the strongest link and cause of it, is the mages being driven to it in desperation because of the templars.

That is evidence that the mages wouldn't cause so many problems or there wouldn't be as many blood mages if it weren't for the templars. The templars are a very large factor, probably one of the main ones with their attitude towards magic.

[shepard1038]

Just to add to the discussion. I think that the Templars and Seekers are necessary. Apart from having magical resistance they are trained to fight mages.

I also would like to hear a decent system from Mage supporters that doesn't involve the Templars and Seekers? It is good asking more rights, but what system are they going to employ if a mage becomes an abomination or goes on a rampage. How are they going to guarantee that if something happens they are going to have a 24/7 effective response?

And why do people say if it wasn't for the Templars they wouln't be many blood mages where Tevinter actually debunks that theory, given how many blood mages they are in Tevinter. So to say that is one of the reasons you support the templars is a valid reason.

Also Meredith does have a valid reason reason to hate the mages since her sister Amelia developed magical talents but her family decided to shield her from the Chantry, knowing that she couldn't survive in the Circle or face their rigorous tests. One day, Meredith's sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70 villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why mages must be treated as people with a curse.

Modifié par shepard1038, 16 février 2013 - 08:07 .

[TEWR]

I also would like to hear a decent system from Mage supporters that doesn't involve the Templars and Seekers?

You'll find that barely anyone even suggests such a thing. Actually, in all my time on here I've never seen anyone suggest such a thing.

You may find people that believe the Order is corrupt and the Seekers incompetent, but that's not the same thing as suggesting there be no Templars or Seekers.

I myself have posted numerous alternatives that are feasible in theory. In practice, I could not say, but an attempt at implementing alternatives would grant a better understanding of how best to handle the issue.

Also Meredith does have a valid reason reason to hate the mages since blood mages killed her family.

No.

For one thing, that's not her backstory. Assuming what she said is true -- I tend to distrust anything she says since the idol's affected her mind since Act 2 when she got it -- her backstory is that her little sister was kept from the Circle, went Abomination, and killed 70 people before being killed -- including her parents.

That's a reason to believe magical education is necessary. That's not a reason to hate Mages entirely. By default, that means she also hates her sister.

For another, whatever her reasons she should not have ascended to such an influential position in the Order if she demonstrated a clear psychological inability to do her job correctly. Her hatred of Mages clouded her judgement.

And why do people say if it wasn't for the Templars they wouln't be many blood mages where Tevinter actually debunks that theory, given how many blood mages they are.

Magic in Tevinter has always had a wholly different perspective then magic in lands outside of Tevinter. Different culture and all that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2013 - 08:05 .

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

Just to add to the discussion. I think that the Templars and Seekers are necessary. Apart from having magical resistance they are trained to fight mages.

I also would like to hear a decent system from Mage supporters that doesn't involve the Templars and Seekers? It is good asking more rights, but what system are they going to employ if a mage becomes an abomination or goes on a rampage. How are they going to gurantee that if something happens they are going to have a 24/7 effective response?

And why do people say if it wasn't for the Templars they wouln't be many blood mages where Tevinter actually debunks that theory, given how many blood mages they are. So to say that is one of the reasons you support the templars is a valid reason.

Also Meredith does have a valid reason reason to hate the mages since blood mages killed her family.
Or like Cullen who saw how Uldred and his abominations killed everyone.

I have long advocated putting magical regulation and control in the hands of the king/nobles.  Ideally you would have a special order of Knight-hood that was open to both mages and specially trained mundanes (with Templar abilities) whose entire job was to regulate magic and to hunt down and prosecute those crimes done by magic or magical threats.  Those that belong to this order would undergo very careful screening and constant scrutiny.  Those that don't make the grade get mustered out.

I would agree that magical education would be mandatory, and I might even agree that those with magical talent might need extra scrutiny, but once a mage has proven they can control their own powers and be held accountable, they should be allowed to fully participate in society.

Now, if said person uses magic to break the law, it should at minimum be an aggravating circumstance (like using a gun for a robbery) and bring down the wrath of this order.  I also would say that bloodmagic should be heavily restricted and probably illegal EXCEPT under carefully regulated conditions and generally only in the hands of this special order of Knight-hood.

Now, no system designed for human beings will ever be perfect, but a system like this would meet most of the legitate concerns about magic and still treat mages like human beings.  The one thing that has to go is religious control over magical power and enforcement.  That means no more Chantry Templars (although the skills could and should be taught to carefully selected knights of good character).

-Polaris

[shepard1038]

The only things that i have a problem with this system is that:

1. Having Mages be part of the order would be problematic and Mages can't learn Templar abilities.

2. I don't see the Chantry or Templars just giving over their power.

3. This doesn't guarantee a 24/7 response as the Templars have. Since given how dangerous and powerful abominations are it may be too late.

4. It would stretch the order thin. Since you wouldn't have enough of them in every place or at least city.

This is why i am Pro-Templar. Since i see the order necessary and i don't think it is going to work without the Templars and Seekers and i agree with some of their corcerns and reasons. But i think the Circle of Magi could use some reform and having some system in place in case Templars abuse their power. It would be interesting to see how we can resolve this conflict and what reasons both groups give us in DA3.

Modifié par shepard1038, 16 février 2013 - 08:48 .

[TEWR]

shepard1038 wrote...

1. Having Mages be part of the order would be problematic and Mages can't learn Templar abilities.

Arguable. There are apparently Templar Rogues in the Order, as DAII told us -- which is odd considering Alistair said it's a Warrior only school.

Secondly, Mages have the School of Spirit that acts as anti-magic. Templar abilities are just lesser forms of that magic and indeed have been called magic by DG himself.

2. I don't see the Chantry or Templars just giving over their power.

Indeed.

3. This doesn't guarantee a 24/7 response as the Templars have. Since given how dangerous and powerful abominations are it may be too late.

Templars do not have a 24/7 response time.

4. It would stretch the order thin. Since you wouldn't have enough of them in every place or at least city.

Hmmm, I'd note a restriction I've often suggested that could add to IanPolaris' suggestion: Telling the Mages that if they choose to live outside the Circle's walls, they must choose a place that has Templars in its vicinity. Lothering, Redclife, Kirkwall, Denerim, and Starkhaven all have Templars.

A second phylactery would then be taken and shipped to those Templars. The Mage would be required to check in with the Templars daily in order to retain his freedom. He'd have the right to marry, have children, maybe even open up a shop.

Perhaps even as an addendum, there could be a limit to how many Mages can go to a certain area. 

"Ah, sorry mate. Lothering's filled its quota. How about Kirkwall? I hear the Demonic invasion is lovely this time of year."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2013 - 08:49 .

[shepard1038]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

1. Having Mages be part of the order would be problematic and Mages can't learn Templar abilities.

Arguable. There are apparently Templar Rogues in the Order, as DAII told us -- which is odd considering Alistair said it's a Warrior only school.

Secondly, Mages have the School of Spirit that acts as anti-magic. Templar abilities are just lesser forms of that magic and indeed have been called magic by DG himself.

2. I don't see the Chantry or Templars just giving over their power.

Indeed.

3. This doesn't guarantee a 24/7 response as the Templars have. Since given how dangerous and powerful abominations are it may be too late.

Templars do not have a 24/7 response time.

4. It would stretch the order thin. Since you wouldn't have enough of them in every place or at least city.

Hmmm, I'd note a restriction I've often suggested that could add to IanPolaris' suggestion: Telling the Mages that if they choose to live outside the Circle's walls, they must choose a place that has Templars in its vicinity. Lothering, Redclife, Kirkwall, Denerim, and Starkhaven all have Templars.

A second phylactery would then be taken and shipped to those Templars. The Mage would be required to check in with the Templars daily in order to retain his freedom. He'd have the right to marry, have children, maybe even open up a shop.

Perhaps even as an addendum, there could be a limit to how many Mages can go to a certain area. 

"Ah, sorry mate. Lothering's filled its quota. How about Kirkwall? I hear the Demonic invasion is lovely this time of year."

It seems problematic having Mages supervise and hunt Mages.

So doesn't that mean that the Chantry and the Templar order should have to be destroyed? That would anger a lot of mundanes.

When Uldred began to turn everyone into abominations and started killing everyone. The Templars reacted quickly and shut the doors and called reinforcements.

P.S How do you put quotes like that?

[TEWR]

It seems problematic having Mages supervise and hunt Mages.

The Mages' Collective does it well enough given how they have to operate in secrecy, to the point where they've increased the positive perception of magic in Ferelden by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

So doesn't that mean that the Chantry and the Templar order should have to be destroyed? That would anger a lot of mundanes.

Not necessarily. With Alistair on the throne, he could begin to secretly create his own brigade. The Chantry need not be destroyed for these abilities to be used elsewhere, though they certainly wouldn't like their secrets spilling out into the countryside -- something Alistair makes clear before he accepts telling the Warden about said secrets.

When Uldred began to turn everyone into abominations and started killing everyone. The Templars reacted quickly and shut the doors and called reinforcements.

That's not a 24/7 response time, due to what happens out in the wilderness. You can't claim 24/7 response time if you're not everywhere at every point in time.

And regardless, Gregoir is doubtful reinforcements will arrive (in time) IIRC, and those iron doors would not keep Abominations out for long. They're just plain iron doors and Abominations have magic at their disposal, not to mention brute strength.

Plus, Wynne's barrier is what truly kept the Demons/Abominations out.

As to how to make quotes, put [ quote ] before anything you type and end it with [/ quote ], but with no spaces between the brackets and the word quote.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2013 - 09:29 .

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

It seems problematic having Mages supervise and hunt Mages.

I don't see why.  Mages are people (good, bad, and indifferent) like anyone else.  Some would be trustworthy with such power and some would not.  Mages (like everyone else of this hypothetical order) would be carefully screened and continually scrtunized to help avoid problems.

Not only that, but I am not saying that mages only would supervise and hunt mages, only that they would be an instrinsic part of an overall royal order with very high standards that would do so.  Would there be problems?  Surely.  Any system designed and run by humans will be flawed, but it would be a long chalk better than the status quo.

I should note that this is only a hypothetical.  I was asked what would be a better system, and I believe I have proposed at least one reasonable possibility.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
I have long advocated putting magical regulation and control in the hands of the king/nobles.

That is a bad idea. If you place that kind of power in the hands of kings, they will just use it to fight territorial lands. The Chantry works as an international organization and they have managed to keep mages politically neutral.
It's not perfect, certainly, and it's worth discussing what could use some change. For instance, mages assisting in policing other mages is something worth considering.
The key word being assistance. By having both mages and templars hunt apostates, there is at least a better chance mages will not be killed out of hand but also that dangerous mages will not simply be allowed to go free.
Which doesn't change the fact that power over mages should be in the hands of a politcally neutral and international organization.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I have long advocated putting magical regulation and control in the hands of the king/nobles.

That is a bad idea. If you place that kind of power in the hands of kings, they will just use it to fight territorial lands. The Chantry works as an international organization and they have managed to keep mages politically neutral.
It's not perfect, certainly, and it's worth discussing what could use some change. For instance, mages assisting in policing other mages is something worth considering.
The key word being assistance. By having both mages and templars hunt apostates, there is at least a better chance mages will not be killed out of hand but also that dangerous mages will not simply be allowed to go free.
Which doesn't change the fact that power over mages should be in the hands of a politcally neutral and international organization.

We know that the Chantry never abuses it's power and is perfectly fair and just with it's theology of magic (not to mention it's use of worldly powers....after all the Exalted Marches never hurt a single innocent soul....)

Riiight.

I would insist (and I am sure the circles will as well) that secular authorities have control because they DON'T have an anti-magic theology driving them or an anti-magical dogmatic axe to grind.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The Chantry is about as poltically neutral as my pet Airdale (and I don't have a pet Airdale).  In fact King Maric and Gen Loghain came *this* close to kicking the chantry out of Fereldan altogether because the Chantry was constitutionally unable to keep it's paws out of politics (as both Lambert and Meredith prove).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 16 février 2013 - 09:46 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
We know that the Chantry never abuses it's power and is perfectly fair and just with it's theology of magic (not to mention it's use of worldly powers....after all the Exalted Marches never hurt a single innocent soul....)

Riiight.

I would insist (and I am sure the circles will as well) that secular authorities have control because they DON'T have an anti-magic theology driving them or an anti-magical dogmatic axe to grind.

I said it was not perfect. Is that the terms on which you want to start this? Because there is no need to debate in an antagonistic tone.

The Chantry has not abused the power it detains over magic. For instance, no secret blood mage squad serve the Divine and both Chantry and Templars have stayed out of territorial wars, acting only in cases where humanity itself is threatened, such as againt the Qunari and Bligths.

It's better to use the system that is at hand than attempt to create a new one from scratch. It won't be secularism; and it's unrealistic to expect it in a medieval setting; but having templars be more accountable for any abuses would solve a great many deal of problems.

The Chantry is about as poltically neutral as my pet Airdale (and I
don't have a pet Airdale).  In fact King Maric and Gen Loghain came
*this* close to kicking the chantry out of Fereldan altogether because
the Chantry was constitutionally unable to keep it's paws out of
politics (as both Lambert and Meredith prove).

The Chantry is, in fact, politically neutral. Meredith overstep her bounds but the Grand Cleric had no involvement in it and Lambert never involved himself in the politics of the realm.
What happened during the Occupation was the Grand Cleric of Denerim doing what she could do protect Ferelden's population. You can't fault her for that.