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[TEWR]

The Grand Cleric of Ferelden was involved with war councils and Landsmeets.

The Divine of Orlais and the Emperor/Empress of Orlais have been fast friends since the inception of both.

Drakon himself wanted the Orlesian Empire and Chantry to work together.

They're not politically neutral.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grand Cleric of Ferelden was involved with war councils and Landsmeets.

The Divine of Orlais and the Emperor/Empress of Orlais have been fast friends since the inception of both.

Drakon himself wanted the Orlesian Empire and Chantry to work together.

They're not politically neutral.

War Councils and Landsmeets which were called to discuss the issue of darkspawn eating the country, that's different.
They keep mages from participating in wordly conflicts which would be a lot more bloody if magic is involved.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

War Councils and Landsmeets which were called to discuss the issue of darkspawn eating the country, that's different.
They keep mages from participating in wordly conflicts which would be a lot more bloody if magic is involved.

And they were politically involved during the Orlesian Occupation.

Sure, I can respect Mages not being involved in wars officially, unless the Chantry authorizes it. Even then, however, they only authorized seven Mages going to Ostagar -- which is a serious problem when you're facing dozens and dozens and dozens of Darkspawn Mages.

And then the Grand Cleric shot down Uldred's suggestion simply because he was a Mage, when Uldred's suggestion wouldn't have had him in the Tower at all -- as he cited it as unnecessary -- which makes me question the whole "Loghain and Uldred were in cahoots" thing that would've had Uldred... in the Tower.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2013 - 10:33 .

[Chiramu]

Good work OP, you've just committed genocide. Now you can rightfully stand at Hitler's side.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grand Cleric of Ferelden was involved with war councils and Landsmeets.

The Divine of Orlais and the Emperor/Empress of Orlais have been fast friends since the inception of both.

Drakon himself wanted the Orlesian Empire and Chantry to work together.

They're not politically neutral.

War Councils and Landsmeets which were called to discuss the issue of darkspawn eating the country, that's different.
They keep mages from participating in wordly conflicts which would be a lot more bloody if magic is involved.

Unless the foe happens to be heathen elves, qunari, Rivanni who folloow the Qun, or for that matter anyone else that the Chantry doesn't like.  The Chantry is inherently corrupt because it has no check on it's power (or at least it didn't until now), and because the theology of the chantry is intrinsically anti-magic and that makes them a poor choice for stewardship for magic in general.

I am open to something other than the crown but right now the nobility for all their short sightedness and political struggles do NOT have an inherently anti-mage axe to grind and the Chantry does.  I consider the seperation of the chantry from anything to do with magical regulation to be a minimum non-negotiable first step.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

War Councils and Landsmeets which were called to discuss the issue of darkspawn eating the country, that's different.
They keep mages from participating in wordly conflicts which would be a lot more bloody if magic is involved.

And they were politically involved during the Orlesian Occupation.

Sure, I can respect Mages not being involved in wars officially, unless the Chantry authorizes it. Even then, however, they only authorized seven Mages going to Ostagar -- which is a serious problem when you're facing dozens and dozens and dozens of Darkspawn Mages.

The problem is that the Chantry has proven that it is unable because of theology or simple corruption (or both) to be trusted with the stewardship of regulating magic at all.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Indeed Duncan openly speculates that the real reason the Chantry doesn't want more than seven mages in Ostagar (a ridiculously small number) is because the Chantry is afraid of what mages might do if they get the idea they can defend themselves after fighting darkspawn.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 16 février 2013 - 10:31 .

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is that the Chantry has proven that it is unable because of theology or simple corruption (or both) to be trusted with the stewardship of regulating magic at all.

Indeed.

Hmmm... what would happen if the Circles were considered their own independent nations within a nation, sequestered in the Towers, with no authority over the Templar Order? The Templars would still exist to do their duty -- who would command them being something I'm still not certain of entirely -- and the Circle Mages would have no authority over them or the Chantry, which would in turn reduce the likelihood of a second Tevinter occurring.

Since Tevinter came about because the Mages took over the Chantry, which in turn led them to take over everything else.

And anyone that leaves the Circle -- though in this proposed system I might remove this part of the reformation -- is automatically subject to the laws of the state.

I suppose in more precise terms, this'd be suzerainty. Limited self-autonomy, but otherwise still controlled by other people.

I honestly wouldn't know if this is a better or worse general idea. First time I've even thought that the Circles should be part of a suzerainty system.

Edit PS:  Indeed Duncan openly speculates that the real reason the Chantry doesn't want more than seven mages in Ostagar (a ridiculously small number) is because the Chantry is afraid of what mages might do if they get the idea they can defend themselves after fighting darkspawn.

It's certainly the most logical thing to come to. Certainly the Chantry has their priorities mucked up, where they believe Blood Mages and Abominations are a greater threat then mindless creatures that can render the land infertile for decades, if not centuries or millenia.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2013 - 10:41 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sure, I can respect Mages not being involved in wars officially, unless the Chantry authorizes it. Even then, however, they only authorized seven Mages going to Ostagar -- which is a serious problem when you're facing dozens and dozens and dozens of Darkspawn Mages.

Which only proves that the Chantry is not interested in having a monopoly on magic since they're genuinelly terrified of it.
They're scared of mages discovering that's fun to throw fireballs around. I'd say that is a legitimate concern.

And then the Grand Cleric shot down Uldred's suggestion simply because he was a Mage, when Uldred's suggestion wouldn't have had him in the Tower at all -- as he cited it as unnecessary -- which makes me question the whole "Loghain and Uldred were in cahoots" thing that would've had Uldred... in the Tower.

Uldred would have been tasked with sending the signal for Loghain to charge. Since he was conspiring with him, he would have sent no signal and Loghain could honestly say he never received the order to charge and was not to blame for Cailan's death.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Which only proves that the Chantry is not interested in having a monopoly on magic since they're genuinelly terrified of it.
They're scared of mages discovering that's fun to throw fireballs around. I'd say that is a legitimate concern.

They're also scared of Mages learning the basics of metalworking and combat. 

I'd say that if you're restricting how many Mages fight a roving horde of monsters mindlessly driven to destroy anything by their presence and claiming "I don't want them to see the power they wield!" then you've got your priorities ****ed up.

Darkspawn are considered lesser creatures by essentially everyone. Society, less so.

Uldred would have been tasked with sending the signal for Loghain to charge. Since he was conspiring with him, he would have sent no signal and Loghain could honestly say he never received the order to charge and was not to blame for Cailan's death.

Except DG said Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the Tower so they could light the beacon, and if Uldred didn't light the beacon then he could hardly be blamed.

Problem being, Uldred cites the Tower and the beacon as unnecessary.

It'd be different if he said "If Uldred didn't send a signal up, Loghain could hardly be blamed." but he uses "the beacon" instead.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Unless the foe happens to be heathen elves,

The elves who sacked Val-Royeaux? They had it coming.

qunari,

Qunari are not peaceful. Their very ideology demands convertion and control of every aspect of the world.
There is no peace to be made with them.

The Chantry is inherently corrupt because it has no check on it's power (or at least it didn't until now), and because the theology of the chantry is intrinsically anti-magic and that makes them a poor choice for stewardship for magic in general.

It's not easy answering the question of "Who watches the watchmen?". The Chantry has as much checks as any medieval government and the Circle system, in theory, works just fine.
Mages live in closed communities and elect their own leaders. The templars are there merely to advise and need to cooperate with the First Enchanter so as to punish blood mages and the like.
Of course, sometimes it works like that (Ferelden) and sometimes doesn't (Kirkwall).

I am open to something other than the crown but right now the nobility for all their short sightedness and political struggles do NOT have an inherently anti-mage axe to grind and the Chantry does.  I consider the seperation of the chantry from anything to do with magical regulation to be a minimum non-negotiable first step.

Short sightedness and political struggles are much, much worse than anti-magic theology.
We should first and foremost take into account the good and peace of the realm, not the mages. Handling control of mages over to nobles will just lead to them being used in warfare which will cause untold devastation with nations like Nevarra and Orlais using their own mages.
This is not preferable to the current system.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They're also scared of Mages learning the basics of metalworking and combat. 

I'd say that if you're restricting how many Mages fight a roving horde of monsters mindlessly driven to destroy anything by their presence and claiming "I don't want them to see the power they wield!" then you've got your priorities ****ed up.

Darkspawn are considered lesser creatures by essentially everyone. Society, less so.

I don't. I'm far more concerned of mages taking over society than I am of darkspawn and archdemons.
Thedas has already killed five of those. Tevinter is still there.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sure, I can respect Mages not being involved in wars officially, unless the Chantry authorizes it. Even then, however, they only authorized seven Mages going to Ostagar -- which is a serious problem when you're facing dozens and dozens and dozens of Darkspawn Mages.

Which only proves that the Chantry is not interested in having a monopoly on magic since they're genuinelly terrified of it.
They're scared of mages discovering that's fun to throw fireballs around. I'd say that is a legitimate concern.

Actually wanting to control something totally IS a sign of fear or at least a reaction to fear.  The Chantry does indeed fear magic and thus want to control it completely.  The Inquisitors simply want to kill it.

And then the Grand Cleric shot down Uldred's suggestion simply because he was a Mage, when Uldred's suggestion wouldn't have had him in the Tower at all -- as he cited it as unnecessary -- which makes me question the whole "Loghain and Uldred were in cahoots" thing that would've had Uldred... in the Tower.

Uldred would have been tasked with sending the signal for Loghain to charge. Since he was conspiring with him, he would have sent no signal and Loghain could honestly say he never received the order to charge and was not to blame for Cailan's death.

DG himself said that wasn't true.  For that matter it wouldn't have to be Ulrded.  My warden mage or any mage with some advanced primal knowledge could have shot of a fireball that would be seen for miles.  Uldred was a bastard but he was absolutely right in a tactical sense.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They're also scared of Mages learning the basics of metalworking and combat. 

I'd say that if you're restricting how many Mages fight a roving horde of monsters mindlessly driven to destroy anything by their presence and claiming "I don't want them to see the power they wield!" then you've got your priorities ****ed up.

Darkspawn are considered lesser creatures by essentially everyone. Society, less so.

I don't. I'm far more concerned of mages taking over society than I am of darkspawn and archdemons.
Thedas has already killed five of those. Tevinter is still there.

If the Archdemon is not defeated then there isn't a society to argue about.  The Chantry has it's priorties messed up.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Unless the foe happens to be heathen elves,

The elves who sacked Val-Royeaux? They had it coming.

There is very strong evidence that Orlais started it, wanted to grab a little extra elven land cheap and finally found a nation that was able to stand up to them....and then SHOCK the Chantry bails out their Orlesian pets.

qunari,

Qunari are not peaceful. Their very ideology demands convertion and control of every aspect of the world.
There is no peace to be made with them.

Tell that to the PEACEFUL Rivanni quanari that the Exalted March slaughtered....to the point of Sundering the Veil.

The Chantry is inherently corrupt because it has no check on it's power (or at least it didn't until now), and because the theology of the chantry is intrinsically anti-magic and that makes them a poor choice for stewardship for magic in general.

It's not easy answering the question of "Who watches the watchmen?". The Chantry has as much checks as any medieval government and the Circle system, in theory, works just fine.
Mages live in closed communities and elect their own leaders. The templars are there merely to advise and need to cooperate with the First Enchanter so as to punish blood mages and the like.
Of course, sometimes it works like that (Ferelden) and sometimes doesn't (Kirkwall).

The Chantry has no oversight any more than the RL RCC had oversight (and thus is shown to be subject to exactly the same abuses).  Not only that but the Chantry has proven that they are unwilling or unable to accept responsibility for properly monitering their own Templar/Inquisitors.  Ethina is unfortunately pretty typical of the senior chantry leadership including Justina V who's motto seems to be "too little and too late".

I am open to something other than the crown but right now the nobility for all their short sightedness and political struggles do NOT have an inherently anti-mage axe to grind and the Chantry does.  I consider the seperation of the chantry from anything to do with magical regulation to be a minimum non-negotiable first step.

Short sightedness and political struggles are much, much worse than anti-magic theology.
We should first and foremost take into account the good and peace of the realm, not the mages. Handling control of mages over to nobles will just lead to them being used in warfare which will cause untold devastation with nations like Nevarra and Orlais using their own mages.
This is not preferable to the current system.

As long as nobles find magic and the nuturing of magic in their best interests, then they have motivation to treat and police magic FAIRLY.  That is a far cry from the Chantry which is mired in Anti-mage dogma (formed when the wounds of old Tevinter were still raw).

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They're also scared of Mages learning the basics of metalworking and combat. 

I'd say that if you're restricting how many Mages fight a roving horde of monsters mindlessly driven to destroy anything by their presence and claiming "I don't want them to see the power they wield!" then you've got your priorities ****ed up.

Darkspawn are considered lesser creatures by essentially everyone. Society, less so.

I don't. I'm far more concerned of mages taking over society than I am of darkspawn and archdemons.
Thedas has already killed five of those. Tevinter is still there.

All of those preceding four Blights have been fought with Mages using their magic to its fullest potential, so.... yeah. That the Chantry refused to send out the majority of Mages and Templars this time does not speak well for them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2013 - 11:07 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
There is very strong evidence that Orlais started it, wanted to grab a little extra elven land cheap and finally found a nation that was able to stand up to them....and then SHOCK the Chantry bails out their Orlesian pets.

There is just as strong evidence that the elves started it.
Regardless, it's not important. the Exalted March was only called as the dalish were on the doorstep of Val-Royeaux after burning their ways through Orlais which is full of innocent people, BTW.

Tell that to the PEACEFUL Rivanni quanari that the Exalted March slaughtered....to the point of Sundering the Veil.

There is no such thing as a peaceful qunari. They are either spies or they will turn on Andrasteans the moment the Beresad are at the gates.
Altough, I would have just deported any converts to qunari lands.

The Chantry has no oversight any more than the RL RCC had oversight (and thus is shown to be subject to exactly the same abuses).  Not only that but the Chantry has proven that they are unwilling or unable to accept responsibility for properly monitering their own Templar/Inquisitors.  Ethina is unfortunately pretty typical of the senior chantry leadership including Justina V who's motto seems to be "too little and too late".

We have seen little abuse from the Chantry specifically. We have seen some from the templars with the great majority of it focused on Kirkwall; and even then, the problem were people like Alrik and Orsino is leadership positions rather than the majority of templars or mages.
It's not easy containing magic. The Chantry does what it can and at least it has already proven that they are genuine in their intentions.

As long as nobles find magic and the nuturing of magic in their best interests, then they have motivation to treat and police magic FAIRLY.  That is a far cry from the Chantry which is mired in Anti-mage dogma (formed when the wounds of old Tevinter were still raw).

Kings and nobles will use mages as weapons and peasants as walking blood containters. You can't honestly think this is better than the Circle system where mages are segregated, yes, but at peace and in confort.
Abuses happen and they should be dealt with but giving over control of mages to worldly powers it's the worst anyone could do.

The Chantry's fear of magic are justified and universal. Tevinter is still there.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 février 2013 - 11:26 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
All of those preceding four Blights have been fought with Mages using their magic to its fullest potential, so.... yeah. That the Chantry refused to send out the majority of Mages and Templars this time does not speak well for them.

It strikes me as trying to to put out a fire with a flood. Either way, you're getting screwed.

Besides, news from the front was that it was going well. The Chantry fears magic more than the darkspawn. But there are very good reasons to fear magic.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
All of those preceding four Blights have been fought with Mages using their magic to its fullest potential, so.... yeah. That the Chantry refused to send out the majority of Mages and Templars this time does not speak well for them.

It strikes me as trying to to put out a fire with a flood. Either way, you're getting screwed.

Besides, news from the front was that it was going well. The Chantry fears magic more than the darkspawn. But there are very good reasons to fear magic.

Yet in all those previous blights, including the one where the warden brings in the entire circle of magi (that's left) after Broken Circle, all of Thedas remain not overrun with abominations and blood mages.

It's not where mages use their powers that there are blood mages and abominations running all over the place (well, statistically there would be a few) but based on what we've seen, there are more blood mages and abominations in areas where the templars and the Chantry try to control magic completely.

Similar to prohibition or gun control, increasing regulation actually does NOTHING  to stop it, and in many cases, actually drives people to it.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
All of those preceding four Blights have been fought with Mages using their magic to its fullest potential, so.... yeah. That the Chantry refused to send out the majority of Mages and Templars this time does not speak well for them.

It strikes me as trying to to put out a fire with a flood. Either way, you're getting screwed.

Besides, news from the front was that it was going well. The Chantry fears magic more than the darkspawn. But there are very good reasons to fear magic.

Fear implies lack of mastery lack of mastery implies lack of knowledge . And if you have no knowledge you will indeed fear the unknown but it makes your argument worhless if you have no knowledge pn the subject. The chantries fear is justified and can be as easily dismissed . The chantry is the merchant of fear. It needs it to keep the local peasants loyal to the chantry. Mages are a convenient scapegoat nothing more nothing less.

Magical advancement is nearly gone because the chantry fears that the mages may discover magic that makes templars obsolete. Bloodmagic is such a victim. Despit having plenty of evidence that bloodmagic can be used for more then boiling blood warping minds.  But shapeshifters and Arcane warriors will no doubt just as easily  labeld malifacarum . I doubt templars will have an easy time with either a an AW or shifter.

But if i was a peasant in Thedas i would have tried to become a spirit warrior use lyrium tattoos or drink dragon blood to transcend that little prison the chantry made for me. The chantry says to the peasants they should remain weak and feeble while they have to wait unitll maker returns and turns thedas into a paradise. Thank you but i rather make my own paradise.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Yet in all those previous blights, including the one where the warden brings in the entire circle of magi (that's left) after Broken Circle, all of Thedas remain not overrun with abominations and blood mages.

It's not where mages use their powers that there are blood mages and abominations running all over the place (well, statistically there would be a few) but based on what we've seen, there are more blood mages and abominations in areas where the templars and the Chantry try to control magic completely.

Similar to prohibition or gun control, increasing regulation actually does NOTHING  to stop it, and in many cases, actually drives people to it.

The Circle in Ferelden did not become overrun with Abominations and blood mages while the templars were there. It was after they were driven out and Uldred allowed to do as he pleased that the place went to hell. Tevinter is a land where mages are allowed to run themselves and witness the result.
I know you're going to mention the Act 3 of DAII but very few of those cases could actually be blamed on the templars. Blood mages like Alain you can rigthfully say that Meredith's measures pushed them into it but Abominations like Evelina would have become so even if there had been no templars involved.

Besides, Meredith's actions were way beyond the norm for templars in other Circles. For instance, mages in Kirkwall were beaten if they spoke to civillians. Mages in the White Spire were allowed to visit the shop and buy things for themselves.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Yet in all those previous blights, including the one where the warden brings in the entire circle of magi (that's left) after Broken Circle, all of Thedas remain not overrun with abominations and blood mages.

It's not where mages use their powers that there are blood mages and abominations running all over the place (well, statistically there would be a few) but based on what we've seen, there are more blood mages and abominations in areas where the templars and the Chantry try to control magic completely.

Similar to prohibition or gun control, increasing regulation actually does NOTHING  to stop it, and in many cases, actually drives people to it.

The Circle in Ferelden did not become overrun with Abominations and blood mages while the templars were there. It was after they were driven out and Uldred allowed to do as he pleased that the place went to hell. Tevinter is a land where mages are allowed to run themselves and witness the result.
I know you're going to mention the Act 3 of DAII but very few of those cases could actually be blamed on the templars. Blood mages like Alain you can rigthfully say that Meredith's measures pushed them into it but Abominations like Evelina would have become so even if there had been no templars involved.

Besides, Meredith's actions were way beyond the norm for templars in other Circles. For instance, mages in Kirkwall were beaten if they spoke to civillians. Mages in the White Spire were allowed to visit the shop and buy things for themselves.

your pulling facts out of your ass or your to lazy to look it up . The abominations started at the council meeting. The templars where driven away by abominations. The whole reason it escalated is because so amny mages where nearby for mages to become possesed. The whole concept of locking all mages into one tower is not safe at all. As we have seen the templars cannot handle abominations.

And whats the result of the tevinter imperium. Yes it has slavery but so does Orlais. In many aspects the tevinter imperium is ruled just the as any other kingdom in Thedas. And do not forget that the mundane people (or at least the nobility) support the mages.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 16 février 2013 - 05:43 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Yet in all those previous blights, including the one where the warden brings in the entire circle of magi (that's left) after Broken Circle, all of Thedas remain not overrun with abominations and blood mages.

It's not where mages use their powers that there are blood mages and abominations running all over the place (well, statistically there would be a few) but based on what we've seen, there are more blood mages and abominations in areas where the templars and the Chantry try to control magic completely.

Similar to prohibition or gun control, increasing regulation actually does NOTHING  to stop it, and in many cases, actually drives people to it.

The Circle in Ferelden did not become overrun with Abominations and blood mages while the templars were there. It was after they were driven out and Uldred allowed to do as he pleased that the place went to hell. Tevinter is a land where mages are allowed to run themselves and witness the result.
I know you're going to mention the Act 3 of DAII but very few of those cases could actually be blamed on the templars. Blood mages like Alain you can rigthfully say that Meredith's measures pushed them into it but Abominations like Evelina would have become so even if there had been no templars involved.

As others have already stated, you are flat out wrong.  Uldred started summoning demons shortly after Irving's meeting and got overwhelmed.  THIS was when the abominations started.  This is per Knight Commander Gregoire.  It was the rush of abominations that forced the Templars from the tower.

As for Tevinter, sure it's a long we'd consider evil because it doesn't recognize human rights (anyone's human rights), but it isn't a smoking hole in the ground...which it should be if the Chantry's fears were in any way justified.  You clearly have too much Tevinter on the mind.  Tevinter isn't the way it is because of magic.  It's the way it is because of a culture that doesn't value human dignity.  Honestly Tevinter reminds me strongly of the late Roman/early Byzantine Empires which also were not nice places unless you happened to be a citizen (which meant a privledged class)....and the RL Roman/Byzantine Empires were obviously not magical.

Evalina can be rightfully thrown at the Templar's feat as can Alain (which I am glade to see you can admit) and Huon.  Evalina tried to play by the rules while getting help and charity to those in her charge....from an oganization that is SUPPOSED to be a Charitable organization.  As for Huon, they took a perfectly sane elf, dragged him away in chains in public from his weeping wife and neighbors....and now they wonder why he is mentally cracked???

Really???  Even Aveline (hardly pro-mage) admits that Meredith's treatment of her charges is a huge part of the problem.

Besides, Meredith's actions were way beyond the norm for templars in other Circles. For instance, mages in Kirkwall were beaten if they spoke to civillians. Mages in the White Spire were allowed to visit the shop and buy things for themselves.

Actually mages in Kirkwall (a few of them) were allowed to visit Kirkwall occassionally (less and less under Meredith but it happened), but that in no way changes the concentration camp atmosphere which per Lambert seems to be emdemic within the Templars starting at the very top.  In short, the typical Templar is far more like Ser Cullen and Meredith than Ser Thrask or Gregoire.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
There is very strong evidence that Orlais started it, wanted to grab a little extra elven land cheap and finally found a nation that was able to stand up to them....and then SHOCK the Chantry bails out their Orlesian pets.[/quote]
There is just as strong evidence that the elves started it.
Regardless, it's not important. the Exalted March was only called as the dalish were on the doorstep of Val-Royeaux after burning their ways through Orlais which is full of innocent people, BTW.
[/quote]

Given the history of Orlais to this point (aggressively expansionistic to the point of rivalling old Tevinter) and the Dales (who were insular and wanted to be left alone by everyone's admission), I'd say chances are the Dalish version is the closest one to the truth.

Regardless this was a war between two nations with all the attending issues and as such none of the Chantry's business.  In fact that was the initial position of the Chantry, but they only got involved when it actually looked like Orlais was about to lose.  Don't forget that the Divine rewrote entire sections of the Chant of Light to "justify" her actions.

[quote]
[quote]
Tell that to the PEACEFUL Rivanni quanari that the Exalted March slaughtered....to the point of Sundering the Veil.[/quote]
There is no such thing as a peaceful qunari. They are either spies or they will turn on Andrasteans the moment the Beresad are at the gates.
Altough, I would have just deported any converts to qunari lands.
[/quote]

The Qun may not be a peaceful religion, true, and coexistance long term may be problematic.  However there are PLENTY of peaceful qunari.  The Chantry didn't care.  They just slaughtered the lot of them in "the name of the Maker" and sundered the veil.

[quote
[quote]
The Chantry has no oversight any more than the RL RCC had oversight (and thus is shown to be subject to exactly the same abuses).  Not only that but the Chantry has proven that they are unwilling or unable to accept responsibility for properly monitering their own Templar/Inquisitors.  Ethina is unfortunately pretty typical of the senior chantry leadership including Justina V who's motto seems to be "too little and too late".[/quote]
We have seen little abuse from the Chantry specifically. We have seen some from the templars with the great majority of it focused on Kirkwall; and even then, the problem were people like Alrik and Orsino is leadership positions rather than the majority of templars or mages.
It's not easy containing magic. The Chantry does what it can and at least it has already proven that they are genuine in their intentions.
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The Chantry is directly responsible for allowing such people in leadership, positions, allowing weak incompentants like Elthina, Lelianna, and Justina V to rise so high, and for getting involved in politics.  Do you really think that Elthina had no knowledge of Mother Petrice and wasn't willing to allow Mother Petrice to increase the Chantry's influence as long as her hands stayed clean?  Yeah, me neither.


[quote]
[quote]
As long as nobles find magic and the nuturing of magic in their best interests, then they have motivation to treat and police magic FAIRLY.  That is a far cry from the Chantry which is mired in Anti-mage dogma (formed when the wounds of old Tevinter were still raw).
[/quote]
Kings and nobles will use mages as weapons and peasants as walking blood containters. You can't honestly think this is better than the Circle system where mages are segregated, yes, but at peace and in confort.
Abuses happen and they should be dealt with but giving over control of mages to worldly powers it's the worst anyone could do.
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I absolutely would.  Even if the nobles viewed mages as little more than convenient sources of magic, the key is that they would be USEFUL and nobles tend to take care of things/people that are useful.



[quote]
The Chantry's fear of magic are justified and universal. Tevinter is still there.

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Actually it's not.  If the fears were justified, Tevinter should be a smoking ruin.  It's not.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
As others have already stated, you are flat out wrong.  Uldred started summoning demons shortly after Irving's meeting and got overwhelmed.  THIS was when the abominations started.  This is per Knight Commander Gregoire.  It was the rush of abominations that forced the Templars from the tower.

But it was the fact that the templars had left that allowed Uldred to freely do as he pleased and torture mages one by one to break them.
The point here is that this was not caused by rigidity from the templars. Knight Commander Gregoir is not the type to allow any to be harmed with no cause. In this situation, it was a mage who reveled in his powers to the point of believing demonic possession is "glorious" while the templars would have stopped him.

As for Tevinter, sure it's a long we'd consider evil because it doesn't recognize human rights (anyone's human rights), but it isn't a smoking hole in the ground...which it should be if the Chantry's fears were in any way justified.  You clearly have too much Tevinter on the mind.  Tevinter isn't the way it is because of magic.  It's the way it is because of a culture that doesn't value human dignity.  Honestly Tevinter reminds me strongly of the late Roman/early Byzantine Empires which also were not nice places unless you happened to be a citizen (which meant a privledged class)....and the RL Roman/Byzantine Empires were obviously not magical.

You are right in saying that magic is not to blame for Tevinter. Magic is but a tool which can be used to help or harm depending on the one wielding it.
However, the reasons the magisters were able to completely take control of the infrastructure of society is because of magic which is quite a powerful tool. With this in mind, precautions must be taken so the same does not happen in Southern Thedas. That is one of the Chantry's fears, not just demonic possession which occurs, yes, but it's far less worrisome because what mage in their right mind would wish to be possessed?
The allures of power, on the other hand, are hard to resist and magic is powerful.

Evalina can be rightfully thrown at the Templar's feat as can Alain (which I am glade to see you can admit) and Huon.  Evalina tried to play by the rules while getting help and charity to those in her charge....from an oganization that is SUPPOSED to be a Charitable organization.

I commend Evalina's actions. She obviously tried to do the right thing. But the truth is that Kirkwall was overflowing with refugees. She couldn't have expected special treatment just for her children.

Regardless, Evalina did not fall prey to demons due to templars abuse. They were dismissive, certainly, but during the small conversation with her, we can see that her anger is directed at Hawke.
She fell prey to demons because of the Anger of seeing her children starve and the Desire to give them a better life. Unfortunately, that's life. If the mother of every child who starves in this world of ours turned into an Abomination...well, the point is that desperation can drive mages to do terrible things. And templars are not the only source of desperation in Thedas.

As for Huon, they took a perfectly sane elf, dragged him away in chains in public from his weeping wife and neighbors....and now they wonder why he is mentally cracked???

That hardly seems enough to create a monster like Huon unles he was not psychologically stable to begin.
His talk of "true elven power" raise the possibility that he was just an elven supremacist who suddenly found himself with the power to deal some vengeance.

Actually mages in Kirkwall (a few of them) were allowed to visit Kirkwall occassionally (less and less under Meredith but it happened), but that in no way changes the concentration camp atmosphere which per Lambert seems to be emdemic within the Templars starting at the very top.  In short, the typical Templar is far more like Ser Cullen and Meredith than Ser Thrask or Gregoire.

Templars are just people. We've seen templars who were good men trying to do their best to help others(Ser Bryant); templars whose good motives led them to commit bad actions (Meredith); and downright despicable templars (Ser Alrik).
Bottom line, we've seen more than a fair share number of reasonable, good templars and heard of many others as well; apparently, even in Kirkwall, most templars are honest people trying to do their jobs; to confortably claim that most templars are vicious brutes.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Regardless this was a war between two nations with all the attending issues and as such none of the Chantry's business.  In fact that was the initial position of the Chantry, but they only got involved when it actually looked like Orlais was about to lose.  Don't forget that the Divine rewrote entire sections of the Chant of Light to "justify" her actions.

Or the Chantry removed the Canticles of Shartan ount of anger after the elves slaugthered thousands of humans and sacked the seat of the Chantry.
Wouldn't blame them if that was the case.

The Qun may not be a peaceful religion, true, and coexistance long term may be problematic.  However there are PLENTY of peaceful qunari.  The Chantry didn't care.  They just slaughtered the lot of them in "the name of the Maker" and sundered the veil.

Having qunari inside your lands is like having a knife on your back. It will go down eventually.
As I said before, I would not have killed them but I would have certainly deported all qunari converts

The Chantry is directly responsible for allowing such people in leadership, positions, allowing weak incompentants like Elthina, Lelianna, and Justina V to rise so high, and for getting involved in politics.  Do you really think that Elthina had no knowledge of Mother Petrice and wasn't willing to allow Mother Petrice to increase the Chantry's influence as long as her hands stayed clean?  Yeah, me neither.

Leliana and Divine Justinia are neither weak nor incompetant and while I certainly don't agree with Elthina's inaction, she was a good, tolerant woman who, when faced, with evidence of Petrice's crimes, called for the guard.
There is no reason to believe she had any knowledge of the plot. It goes against every aspect of her extablished character.

I absolutely would.  Even if the nobles viewed mages as little more than convenient sources of magic, the key is that they would be USEFUL and nobles tend to take care of things/people that are useful.

The Chantry views the mages as useful; they are, obviously, an extremely valuable resource; which has not prevented abuses ocasionally.
And you are still only taking into consideration what is better for the mages. Nobles would deploy them in territorial battles with peasants nearby as walking blood containers.
How about some concern for the realm and the people living in it? Or are their lives worthless because they are not mages?

Actually it's not.  If the fears were justified, Tevinter should be a smoking ruin.  It's not.

The Chantry has never claimed abominations will destroy the world if maegs are free. There are many reasons to fear magic beyond abominations. The Chantry recognizes this.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 février 2013 - 07:13 .