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[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
As others have already stated, you are flat out wrong.  Uldred started summoning demons shortly after Irving's meeting and got overwhelmed.  THIS was when the abominations started.  This is per Knight Commander Gregoire.  It was the rush of abominations that forced the Templars from the tower.[/quote]
But it was the fact that the templars had left that allowed Uldred to freely do as he pleased and torture mages one by one to break them.
The point here is that this was not caused by rigidity from the templars. Knight Commander Gregoir is not the type to allow any to be harmed with no cause. In this situation, it was a mage who reveled in his powers to the point of believing demonic possession is "glorious" while the templars would have stopped him.
[/quote]

That wasn't Uldred anymore.  That was the pride Demon that took over Uldred and it happened very early during the revolt.  Check your facts.


[quote]

[quote]As for Tevinter, sure it's a long we'd consider evil because it doesn't recognize human rights (anyone's human rights), but it isn't a smoking hole in the ground...which it should be if the Chantry's fears were in any way justified.  You clearly have too much Tevinter on the mind.  Tevinter isn't the way it is because of magic.  It's the way it is because of a culture that doesn't value human dignity.  Honestly Tevinter reminds me strongly of the late Roman/early Byzantine Empires which also were not nice places unless you happened to be a citizen (which meant a privledged class)....and the RL Roman/Byzantine Empires were obviously not magical.[/quote]

You are right in saying that magic is not to blame for Tevinter. Magic is but a tool which can be used to help or harm depending on the one wielding it.
However, the reasons the magisters were able to completely take control of the infrastructure of society is because of magic which is quite a powerful tool. With this in mind, precautions must be taken so the same does not happen in Southern Thedas. That is one of the Chantry's fears, not just demonic possession which occurs, yes, but it's far less worrisome because what mage in their right mind would wish to be possessed?
The allures of power, on the other hand, are hard to resist and magic is powerful.
[/quote]

No, it is Fenris that explains how it happens.  Tevinter isn't like the other lands of Thedas.  The Aristocracy of Tevinter is strongly magical from the days of the old Imperium.  Magic didn't cause the Chantry to lose control of Tevinter.  It was good old-fashioned politics that did.  No magic required.


[quote]

[quote]Evalina can be rightfully thrown at the Templar's feat as can Alain (which I am glade to see you can admit) and Huon.  Evalina tried to play by the rules while getting help and charity to those in her charge....from an oganization that is SUPPOSED to be a Charitable organization.[/quote]
I commend Evalina's actions. She obviously tried to do the right thing. But the truth is that Kirkwall was overflowing with refugees. She couldn't have expected special treatment just for her children.
[/quote]

Special treatment? Perhaps not, but at least someone in the Chantry should have been willing to take Evaline's charges since the Chantry IS a charatable organzation.  It wouldn't take much.  For a palty handful of sovereigns and Bodhan's connections, the Champion can get Evalina's charges a better life (if not an easy one).  The Chantry couldn't as well?

[quote]
Regardless, Evalina did not fall prey to demons due to templars abuse. They were dismissive, certainly, but during the small conversation with her, we can see that her anger is directed at Hawke.
She fell prey to demons because of the Anger of seeing her children starve and the Desire to give them a better life. Unfortunately, that's life. If the mother of every child who starves in this world of ours turned into an Abomination...well, the point is that desperation can drive mages to do terrible things. And templars are not the only source of desperation in Thedas.
[/quote]

Actually you are wrong.  If you talk with Walter and Cricket, you find that Evalina only changed when the Templars came after her in Darktown and tried to kill her.  In fact you see Evalina as a begger in Act 2 and is clearly not an abomination then.


[quote]

[quote]As for Huon, they took a perfectly sane elf, dragged him away in chains in public from his weeping wife and neighbors....and now they wonder why he is mentally cracked???[/quote]
That hardly seems enough to create a monster like Huon unles he was not psychologically stable to begin.
His talk of "true elven power" raise the possibility that he was just an elven supremacist who suddenly found himself with the power to deal some vengeance.
[/quote]

Ten years of solitary confinment, no visits from his wife (conjugal or otherwise)....this is stuff that would be considered inhuman even in a Super-Max prison.

[quote]
[quote]
Actually mages in Kirkwall (a few of them) were allowed to visit Kirkwall occassionally (less and less under Meredith but it happened), but that in no way changes the concentration camp atmosphere which per Lambert seems to be emdemic within the Templars starting at the very top.  In short, the typical Templar is far more like Ser Cullen and Meredith than Ser Thrask or Gregoire.
[/quote]
Templars are just people. We've seen templars who were good men trying to do their best to help others(Ser Bryant); templars whose good motives led them to commit bad actions (Meredith); and downright despicable templars (Ser Alrik).
Bottom line, we've seen more than a fair share number of reasonable, good templars and heard of many others as well; apparently, even in Kirkwall, most templars are honest people trying to do their jobs; to confortably claim that most templars are vicious brutes.
[/quote]

Yes, individual templars may be decent human beings.  I have never said otherwise, but the Chantry clearly doesn't encourage such behavior or promote it (literally or otherwise).  The bad ones are the ones we see in power for the most part (and Fereldan is considered an out-of-the-way backwater).  The problem is the anti-magic religious zealotry inherent in the Chantry itself (and actually contrary to a straight reading of the Chant of Light as the Tevinters were rude enough to point out).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Regardless this was a war between two nations with all the attending issues and as such none of the Chantry's business.  In fact that was the initial position of the Chantry, but they only got involved when it actually looked like Orlais was about to lose.  Don't forget that the Divine rewrote entire sections of the Chant of Light to "justify" her actions.

Or the Chantry removed the Canticles of Shartan ount of anger after the elves slaugthered thousands of humans and sacked the seat of the Chantry.
Wouldn't blame them if that was the case.

It was war.  PEOPLE DIE...or are you suggesting the Chantry get involved in every war and call an exalted march?!  No, this was a very early show of power by the Chantry and the Crowns of Thedas paid attention.  If the Divine could rewrite the Chant of Light to justify a holy war against the Dales, they could just as easily do so against...say...Nevarra. 

This was the Chantry bailing out their Orlesian pets.  Nothing more.

The Qun may not be a peaceful religion, true, and coexistance long term may be problematic.  However there are PLENTY of peaceful qunari.  The Chantry didn't care.  They just slaughtered the lot of them in "the name of the Maker" and sundered the veil.

Having qunari inside your lands is like having a knife on your back. It will go down eventually.
As I said before, I would not have killed them but I would have certainly deported all qunari converts

There is no evidence that the Chantry even TRIED for a peaceful solution.  They just slaughtered in the name of the Maker.

The Chantry is directly responsible for allowing such people in leadership, positions, allowing weak incompentants like Elthina, Lelianna, and Justina V to rise so high, and for getting involved in politics.  Do you really think that Elthina had no knowledge of Mother Petrice and wasn't willing to allow Mother Petrice to increase the Chantry's influence as long as her hands stayed clean?  Yeah, me neither.

Leliana and Divine Justinia are neither weak nor incompetant and while I certainly don't agree with Elthina's inaction, she was a good, tolerant woman who, when faced, with evidence of Petrice's crimes, called for the guard.
There is no reason to believe she had any knowledge of the plot. It goes against every aspect of her extablished character.

Lelianna could have discovered Meredith's misdeeds and reported back to the Divine with just five minutes of any real investigation, but she couldn't be bothered.  Indeed the whole notion that Meredith went off her rocker comes as a total shock to Seeker Pentagrast THREE YEARS LATER.  What else am I suppoesd to think other than Lelianna (as Sister Nightengale) is utterly incompetant?  For that matter Justina V allows her direct subordinates to run wild just as Elthina did and then tries to mediate later.  "Too little; too late" may as well be her motto.  As for Elthina she had to know about Mother Petrice.  Indeed she does know because you (as Hawke ) can flat out TELL HER that Petrice is misusing her seal.

No, Elthina is either incompetant, or is willing to let others advance chantry political positions without getting her hands soiled or both. 

I absolutely would.  Even if the nobles viewed mages as little more than convenient sources of magic, the key is that they would be USEFUL and nobles tend to take care of things/people that are useful.

The Chantry views the mages as useful; they are, obviously, an extremely valuable resource; which has not prevented abuses ocasionally.
And you are still only taking into consideration what is better for the mages. Nobles would deploy them in territorial battles with peasants nearby as walking blood containers.
How about some concern for the realm and the people living in it? Or are their lives worthless because they are not mages?

Nobles for the most part aren't mages.  It is in the best interest of the nobles to keep their mages happy but to keep magic closely regulated.  Is such a system based on self-interest perfect?  Clearly not, but it's a vast improvement from drug-addled religious zealots that want to kill you for what you are.

Actually it's not.  If the fears were justified, Tevinter should be a smoking ruin.  It's not.

The Chantry has never claimed abominations will destroy the world if maegs are free. There are many reasons to fear magic beyond abominations. The Chantry recognizes this.

Actually that is exactly what the Chantry preaches to the Pews and it's the entire justification for the circles, i.e. if the circles did not exist then mages would go "demon-wild" and slaughter everyone.  The problem is this simply doesn't wash with the facts.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
That wasn't Uldred anymore.  That was the pride Demon that took over Uldred and it happened very early during the revolt.  Check your facts.

Adress my facts. Abomination or not, that situation was caused by a power hungry mage.

No, it is Fenris that explains how it happens.  Tevinter isn't like the other lands of Thedas.  The Aristocracy of Tevinter is strongly magical from the days of the old Imperium.  Magic didn't cause the Chantry to lose control of Tevinter.  It was good old-fashioned politics that did.  No magic required.

Fenris is talking about the way the Magisters took power from the Chantry.
I am referring to the very foundations of Tevinter when mages used their abilities to take control of the more primitive humans that existed then.

Special treatment? Perhaps not, but at least someone in the Chantry should have been willing to take Evaline's charges since the Chantry IS a charatable organzation.  It wouldn't take much.  For a palty handful of sovereigns and Bodhan's connections, the Champion can get Evalina's charges a better life (if not an easy one).  The Chantry couldn't as well?

The Chantry has a city overflowing with refugees to look after. We see Mothers petitioning for coins for the poor but we can't really expect them to house every ferelden refugee.

Actually you are wrong.  If you talk with Walter and Cricket, you find that Evalina only changed when the Templars came after her in Darktown and tried to kill her.  In fact you see Evalina as a begger in Act 2 and is clearly not an abomination then.

That could have been the first time Walter saw her transform, rather than the time she was possessed. During the short talk with her, her focus is the suffering of her children compared with Hawke's wealth rather than templar abuses.

Ten years of solitary confinment, no visits from his wife (conjugal or otherwise)....this is stuff that would be considered inhuman even in a Super-Max prison.

Lots of mages are repudiated by their families and they still don't become Huons. He likely had anger inside him all along.

Yes, individual templars may be decent human beings.  I have never said otherwise, but the Chantry clearly doesn't encourage such behavior or promote it (literally or otherwise).  The bad ones are the ones we see in power for the most part (and Fereldan is considered an out-of-the-way backwater).

How many Knight Commanders have we seen? There is Greagoir who is a just and fair man; Knight Commander Reinar whom even mages tought of as fair and honorable; Knight Commander Eron who trusted Rhys enough to allow him to experiment with spirits beyond the Veil; Knight Commander Martel who attempted to assassinate the Divine Beatrix; and Meredith.
As for Seekers, there's High Seeker Aldren and High Seeker Cassandra who both show no special anti-mage tendencies and there's the Lord Seeker Lambert who is quite strict, certainly and distrustful of mages but still pays heed to his duty of protecting the mages, despite believing they don't deserve it.

There doesn't seem to be any pattern here. I might be missing some but, if anything, most Templars and Seekers in high positions appear to be reasonable and just men and women.

The problem is the anti-magic religious zealotry inherent in the Chantry itself (and actually contrary to a straight reading of the Chant of Light as the Tevinters were rude enough to point out).

How very convenient that their reading of the Chant justifies their hold on power.
They seem to have missed the part where Andraste was very specific on the evils of slavery. Altough so did the Chantry from a certain point of view.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
It was war.  PEOPLE DIE...or are you suggesting the Chantry get involved in every war and call an exalted march?!  No, this was a very early show of power by the Chantry and the Crowns of Thedas paid attention.  If the Divine could rewrite the Chant of Light to justify a holy war against the Dales, they could just as easily do so against...say...Nevarra. 

This was the Chantry bailing out their Orlesian pets.  Nothing more.

This was the Chantry preventing the destruction of an Andrastean nation at the hands of a pagan one. The elves should be grateful the Chantry ordered the human nations to give shelter to elven refugees inside their cities or it might have been their extinction.

There is no evidence that the Chantry even TRIED for a peaceful solution.  They just slaughtered in the name of the Maker.

I didn't say there were. I don't agree with their actions there but I won't condemn all of the Chantry for the actions of a few.

Lelianna could have discovered Meredith's misdeeds and reported back to the Divine with just five minutes of any real investigation, but she couldn't be bothered.  Indeed the whole notion that Meredith went off her rocker comes as a total shock to Seeker Pentagrast THREE YEARS LATER.  What else am I suppoesd to think other than Lelianna (as Sister Nightengale) is utterly incompetant?

Leliana was not there when Meredith declared the ROA which was the point when she lost her mind to the Idol completely. Beforehand, there were abuses of power but Meredith hadn't gone insane.
And hey, maybe if mage terrorists weren't attempting to kill anyone wearing the Sun crest, Leliana would have been more concerned about Meredith.

For that matter Justina V allows her direct subordinates to run wild just as Elthina did and then tries to mediate later.  "Too little; too late" may as well be her motto.

Justinia is acting carefully, as she should, to bring about reform. She calls for a research into the nature of the Rite of Tranquility, she calls for a meeting of First Enchanters while also taking measure to keep them contained and when Lambert takes actions she disaproves of, she distracts him and send her agents to do her will.
And seriously, "too late"? What, is magic going somewhere I don't know? Because I would rejoice.

As for Elthina she had to know about Mother Petrice.  Indeed she does know because you (as Hawke ) can flat out TELL HER that Petrice is misusing her seal.

She said she would step in when it was time which she did. All Hawke had was the word of a drunk who had never even met Petrice but Elthina called for the city guard when the Mother confessed.

Nobles for the most part aren't mages.  It is in the best interest of the nobles to keep their mages happy but to keep magic closely regulated.  Is such a system based on self-interest perfect?  Clearly not, but it's a vast improvement from drug-addled religious zealots that want to kill you for what you are.

Mages are valuable resources. Neither the Chantry not the templars have any interest in killing them and the "drug" doesn't affect the mind of templars since the Chantry has an interesti keeping them supplied.

And you are still only taking into consideration the well being of mages and ignoring the danger this poses for the mundane population.

Actually that is exactly what the Chantry preaches to the Pews and it's the entire justification for the circles, i.e. if the circles did not exist then mages would go "demon-wild" and slaughter everyone.  The problem is this simply doesn't wash with the facts.

*sigh* It's not the entire justification and you know it. I can link you to at least one sermon focusing on blood magic itself and not abominations.
And it's also true. Many mages fall to demons and slaugther dozens if not hundreds of people.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 février 2013 - 09:15 .

[DPSSOC]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Regardless this was a war between two nations with all the attending issues and as such none of the Chantry's business.  In fact that was the initial position of the Chantry, but they only got involved when it actually looked like Orlais was about to lose.  Don't forget that the Divine rewrote entire sections of the Chant of Light to "justify" her actions.

Or the Chantry removed the Canticles of Shartan ount of anger after the elves slaugthered thousands of humans and sacked the seat of the Chantry.
Wouldn't blame them if that was the case.

It was war.  PEOPLE DIE...or are you suggesting the Chantry get involved in every war and call an exalted march?!  No, this was a very early show of power by the Chantry and the Crowns of Thedas paid attention.  If the Divine could rewrite the Chant of Light to justify a holy war against the Dales, they could just as easily do so against...say...Nevarra.

This was the Chantry bailing out their Orlesian pets.  Nothing more.

You are arguing against the Pope declaring war when a hostile force is marching on the Vatican, you do realize this right?  The Dalish had pushed all the way to Val Royeaux before the Chantry got involved. 

IanPolaris wrote...

I absolutely would.  Even if the nobles viewed mages as little more than convenient sources of magic, the key is that they would be USEFUL and nobles tend to take care of things/people that are useful.

The Chantry views the mages as useful; they are, obviously, an extremely valuable resource; which has not prevented abuses ocasionally.
And you are still only taking into consideration what is better for the mages. Nobles would deploy them in territorial battles with peasants nearby as walking blood containers.
How about some concern for the realm and the people living in it? Or are their lives worthless because they are not mages?

Nobles for the most part aren't mages.  It is in the best interest of the nobles to keep their mages happy but to keep magic closely regulated.  Is such a system based on self-interest perfect?  Clearly not, but it's a vast improvement from drug-addled religious zealots that want to kill you for what you are.

Your point: Nobility controlling the mages would be good for the mages and the nobility.

What you're missing: It would be far worse than the mages currently have it for EVERYBODY ELSE!  Imagine the Chevalier with magic, just picture that for a minute.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Unless the foe happens to be heathen elves,

The elves who sacked Val-Royeaux? They had it coming.

Why? Because the elves responded to the Chantry sending templars into their sovereign territory to forcibly convert the elves? Because the elves recognized the threat the Chantry posed, and tried to dismantle them and their symbiotic partner in crime - the Orlesian Empire?

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

qunari,

Qunari are not peaceful. Their very ideology demands convertion and control of every aspect of the world.
There is no peace to be made with them.

I'm sure the elves of the Dales felt the same way. And I don't think they're wrong, given the Chantry's history.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why? Because the elves responded to the Chantry sending templars into their sovereign territory to forcibly convert the elves? Because the elves recognized the threat the Chantry posed, and tried to dismantle them and their symbiotic partner in crime - the Orlesian Empire?

Yes.

I'm sure the elves of the Dales felt the same way. And I don't think they're wrong, given the Chantry's history.

When the Chantry tries to control every aspect of everyone's life down to the day of one's birth, you'll have a point.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Chantry is inherently corrupt because it has no check on it's power (or at least it didn't until now), and because the theology of the chantry is intrinsically anti-magic and that makes them a poor choice for stewardship for magic in general.

It's not easy answering the question of "Who watches the watchmen?". The Chantry has as much checks as any medieval government and the Circle system, in theory, works just fine.
Mages live in closed communities and elect their own leaders. The templars are there merely to advise and need to cooperate with the First Enchanter so as to punish blood mages and the like.
Of course, sometimes it works like that (Ferelden) and sometimes doesn't (Kirkwall).

It's slavery; forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry. A prison where countless men, women, and children are held under the iron grip of the templars and the Chantry, who use religious docturine to control and subjugate mages in the name of the Maker.

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I am open to something other than the crown but right now the nobility for all their short sightedness and political struggles do NOT have an inherently anti-mage axe to grind and the Chantry does.  I consider the seperation of the chantry from anything to do with magical regulation to be a minimum non-negotiable first step.

Short sightedness and political struggles are much, much worse than anti-magic theology.
We should first and foremost take into account the good and peace of the realm, not the mages. Handling control of mages over to nobles will just lead to them being used in warfare which will cause untold devastation with nations like Nevarra and Orlais using their own mages.
This is not preferable to the current system. 

The current system lead to a continental revolution, where mages are fighting against templars who are trying to kill them because the mages want their autonomy. I hope the Dalish use the opportunity to reclaim the Dales, while the Chantry is effective crippled because their armed and armored zealots went rogue.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

It strikes me as trying to to put out a fire with a flood. Either way, you're getting screwed.

Well, fires and floods are good for the environment, provided they're not happening in large-scale cities and whatnot.

But that's beside the point.

Besides, news from the front was that it was going well. The Chantry fears magic more than the darkspawn. But there are very good reasons to fear magic.

So what? Just because it's going well currently doesn't justify refusing reinforcements. You always need more troops to keep the battles going in your favor, and Duncan stated himself that by now the horde outnumbers the soldiers at Ostagar. Duncan is arguing for more troops to be sent to Ostagar. He is not content with the amount they've been given, and he's the Warden-Commander. 

For that matter, Cailan wasn't content either, as he says that the more Mages they have the better IIRC.

Besides, the Mages would be seeing that their magic works on mindless creatures when put to its fullest potential. Templars? Not so much. Templars exist to negate magic. The Chantry's fears aren't really that grounded. If the Templars were just the sort like Imperial Templars, perhaps.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 février 2013 - 12:32 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So what? Just because it's going well currently doesn't justify refusing reinforcements.

If your shock troops are capable of handling the problem, there's no need to drop a nuke on it.

Besides, the Mages would be seeing that their magic works on mindless creatures when put to its fullest potential. Templars? Not so much. Templars exist to negate magic.

Common people can't negate magic.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why? Because the elves responded to the Chantry sending templars into their sovereign territory to forcibly convert the elves? Because the elves recognized the threat the Chantry posed, and tried to dismantle them and their symbiotic partner in crime - the Orlesian Empire?

Yes.

Then I don't blame the elves for trying to put an end to an oppressive and tyrannical regime that invaded them first.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm sure the elves of the Dales felt the same way. And I don't think they're wrong, given the Chantry's history.

When the Chantry tries to control every aspect of everyone's life down to the day of one's birth, you'll have a point. 

The Chantry converted people by force (which is what the Dalish and the elven Warden claim started the war with Orlais, for example), their aim is to convert everyone in the known world to their monstrous religion, they put all mages in Andrastian kingdoms under their control, and they sack "heathen" nations. Their responsible for creating an environment of hatred and intolerance.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

If your shock troops are capable of handling the problem, there's no need to drop a nuke on it.

Mages are not a nuke. They're more like heavy artillery. Mortars, grenades, etc.

Common people can't negate magic.

So we go back to the premise of "The Chantry thinks all Mages are the same!" to justify their stance? That's.... still not casting any points in their favor.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Their responsible for creating an environment of hatred and intolerance.

AH! The human nations sent diplomats, traders, missionaries to the Dales which were are all turned away and they are the ones responsible for creating an environment of hatred and intolerance?
Yeah, right.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Their responsible for creating an environment of hatred and intolerance.

AH! The human nations sent diplomats, traders, missionaries to the Dales which were are all turned away and they are the ones responsible for creating an environment of hatred and intolerance?
Yeah, right. 

Followed by an invasion of armed and armored drug addicts to force the heathens to convert.

Considering the hatred in Andrastian society towards heathens, elves, and mages, that's correct.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So we go back to the premise of "The Chantry thinks all Mages are the same!" to justify their stance? That's.... still not casting any points in their favor.

Not all mages. Wynne has been given an immense amount of trust, for instance.
The problem are mages like Adrian. She is someone that revels in her powers. Now, there is no shame in being a mage but in Adrian's case, reveling in powers leads to her holding fire to the face of villagers.
I think we can agree we don't need more mages who share her taste for setting living things on fire.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Followed by an invasion of armed and armored drug addicts to force the heathens to convert.

Considering the hatred in Andrastian society towards heathens, elves, and mages, that's correct.

Even if Orlais invaded first, which has yet to be proven, the elves were the ones who spat upon every offer of friendship. That is what creates a climate of hatred and intolerance.

Good think Andrastean society is the only society ever where racism and intolerance exist. There are no dalish elves hating humans and magisters looking down on mundanes. No sir, that's all the Chantry.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 février 2013 - 01:03 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Not all mages. Wynne has been given an immense amount of trust, for instance.
The problem are mages like Adrian. She is someone that revels in her powers. Now, there is no shame in being a mage but in Adrian's case, reveling in powers leads to her holding fire to the face of villagers.
I think we can agree we don't need more mages who share her taste for setting living things on fire.

So then send out the majority of Aequitarians, Loyalists, and Lucrosians and other Harrowed Mages. The Isolationists and Libertarians could stay behind, while a fair chunk of Templars go out with those 3 groups of Mages and the rest stay behind to guard the Circle.

Judging all Mages the same is not the way to go.

[shepard1038]

Actually most historians agree that it was the elves who started tensions by letting Montsimmard get nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine while the elven army watched nearby.

Modifié par shepard1038, 17 février 2013 - 01:17 .

[MisterJB]

Apparently, the mages of Nevarra have more power than in the rest of Andrastean lands. They are wealthy, organizaed and hold political sway. Wonder how that translates into every day life.

World of Thedas, of course.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Apparently, the mages of Nevarra have more power than in the rest of Andrastean lands. They are wealthy, organizaed and hold political sway. Wonder how that translates into every day life.

World of Thedas, of course.

It translates to "they aren't following the Chantry way, and so they deserve death." According to the Chantry, based on its attitudes and exalted marches made in the past.

[MisterJB]

Andraste's ass, Exalted Marches were only called when humanity itself was threatened. I was referring to the daily functioning of Nevarra.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Andraste's ass, Exalted Marches were only called when humanity itself was threatened. I was referring to the daily functioning of Nevarra.

The Divine nearly called an Exalted March on her own cathedral because the mages were peacefully protesting. The Chantry called an Exalted March on the Dales when the Dalish, having fought for their isolation policies, was winning against Orlais and Val Reyeuox was being threatened. They called an exalted march on the peaceful Rivaini Qunari, and slaughtered in such great numbers that the veil was sundered.

The Chantry most certainly does not call Exalted Marches when humanity is threatened. They call them when they're being challenged by non-believers and mages. They call them when things don't go their way.

The daily functioning of Nevarra may end up being no different than all the other examples. The Chantry simply does not tolerate being questioned by heathen elves and qunari, or by another country with a different culture having a different interpretation of the Chant of Light.

Chantry history shows us that they simply don't have the best interests of humanity at heart. Only themselves.

On a side note: Individual templars and priests can be really cool. The organization itself is not.

[BlueMagitek]

Well, let's be completely fair here; the first example didn't happen, the second was when the heart of the Chantry was being overrun by the Dalish, of all people, and the third was really just a continuation of the Exalted Marches against the Qunari.

I mean, it isn't so much "being questioned by" as much as it is "getting invaded by". I mean, if the point was to destroy the Dalish, why wait until Orlais was sacked? Seems counter intuitive. :/

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Divine nearly called an Exalted March on her own cathedral because the mages were peacefully protesting.

Which everyone tought was a ridiculous notion, her templars dissuaded her.

The Chantry called an Exalted March on the Dales when the Dalish, having fought for their isolation policies, was winning against Orlais and Val Reyeuox was being threatened.

The Dalish had burned their way across the nation, slaugthering innocent people and were about to sack the heart of the Chantry. If the Divine had packed her stuff and abandoned Orlais, forumites would accuse of looking out for herself while her flock was slaugthered.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

They called an exalted march on the peaceful Rivaini Qunari, and slaughtered in such great numbers that the veil was sundered.

No, they called an Exalthed March on the Qunari who intended to submit the entirety of Thedas to their ideology. The human converts of Rivaine were just caugth in the war.
Obviously, the Chantry can't tolerate qunaris living in any nation under its control. Not because they deny the Maker, but because the minute the Beresaad show up at the gates; which they will, it's only a matter of time until the qunari invade again, that's no secret; they will join them.
Altough, I'd have just deported them.

The Chantry most certainly does not call Exalted Marches when humanity is threatened. They call them when they're being challenged by non-believers and mages. They call them when things don't go their way.

The Dales who were intent on destroying the greatest mundane human nation in Thedas; Tevinter who are intent on enslaving all non-mages; Qunari who will spred their ideology at any cost; Bligths.
How was humanity not threatened in these situations?

The daily functioning of Nevarra may end up being no different than all the other examples. The Chantry simply does not tolerate being questioned by heathen elves and qunari, or by another country with a different culture having a different interpretation of the Chant of Light.

The Chantry hasn't done a thing against Nevarra.

Chantry history shows us that they simply don't have the best interests of humanity at heart. Only themselves.

On a side note: Individual templars and priests can be really cool. The organization itself is not.

People often make these claims of the Chantry just serving its own purposes but I have yet to see evidence of this. There are no secret blood mage squads serving the Divine, using peasants as fuel. When Orlais marches, the Chantry doesn't send templars and mages to aid; the Chantry of Lothering did its best to protect the population when the Bann abandoned them; Grand Cleric Elthina would not abandon her flock and was murderer for it.

The Chantry has done and continues doing questionable things but they have always been genuine and forthcoming about their motives.
If you don't support them, that's fine.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 février 2013 - 10:47 .

[TEWR]

Obviously, the Chantry can't tolerate qunaris living in any nation under its control. Not because they deny the Maker, but because the minute the Beresaad show up at the gates; which they will, it's only a matter of time until the qunari invade again, that's no secret; they will join them.
Altough, I'd have just deported them.

Actually, it was because they deny the Maker. The Rivaini were told to either convert back to Andrastianism or leave the islands for Qunari lands, but the Rivaini that believed in the Qun refused.

And they were in their right to do so, as those lands where the converts lived technically did belong to the Qunari and the Chantry cannot tell other people of different religions what to do. The northern section of Rivain is Qunari territory, especially Kont-arr. And that's where these converts were when the Chantry issued its decree.

When it became evident that words wouldn't work, they were all put to the sword.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 février 2013 - 11:00 .