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[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually, it was because they deny the Maker.

We can't ask the rivaini nationalists why they did what they did. Petrice appears more concerned with the fact people are denying the Maker rather than the fact qunari converts just increase a growingly hostile force inside your city but that doesn't need to eb the justification for everyone.

The Rivaini were told to either convert back to Andrastianism or leave the islands for Qunari lands, but the Rivaini that believed in the Qun refused.

And they were in their right to do so, as those lands where the converts lived technically did belong to the Qunari and the Chantry cannot tell other people of different religions what to do. The northern section of Rivain is Qunari territory, especially Kont-arr. And that's where these converts were when the Chantry issued its decree.

When it became evident that words wouldn't work, they were all put to the sword.

According to the codex, the Llomerryn Accords dictated that qunari were given Par Vollen but nothing else. Rivain, north or south is not Par Vollen and while I wish the rivaini nationalistis had simply forced them to leave, the qunari converts broke the terms of the accord first by not abandoning the mainland of Thedas.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 février 2013 - 11:13 .

[MisterJB]

Oh, and since we were discussing this the other day, a normal darkspawn "birth" usually consists of twenty to fifty darkspawn who are born already capable of walking. No mention of the gestation period.
Once again, World of Thedas. Can't wait to have this book in my hands.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually, it was because they deny the Maker.

We can't ask the rivaini nationalists why they did what they did. Petrice appears more concerned with the fact people are denying the Maker rather than the fact qunari converts just increase a growingly hostile force inside your city but that doesn't need to eb the justification for everyone.

So of course you kill them all and let the Maker sort them out later.  Nice.

The Rivaini were told to either convert back to Andrastianism or leave the islands for Qunari lands, but the Rivaini that believed in the Qun refused.

And they were in their right to do so, as those lands where the converts lived technically did belong to the Qunari and the Chantry cannot tell other people of different religions what to do. The northern section of Rivain is Qunari territory, especially Kont-arr. And that's where these converts were when the Chantry issued its decree.

When it became evident that words wouldn't work, they were all put to the sword.

According to the codex, the Llomerryn Accords dictated that qunari were given Par Vollen but nothing else. Rivain, north or south is not Par Vollen and while I wish the rivaini nationalistis had simply forced them to leave, the qunari converts broke the terms of the accord first by not abandoning the mainland of Thedas.

That is iffy and depends if the Accords count the Qun as a nation or a religion.  Given that it was the other nations of Thedas that signed it, I would say the Qunari are counted as a nation in this case.  Given that, what the Chantry did was despicable.  No other word for it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Oh, and since we were discussing this the other day, a normal darkspawn "birth" usually consists of twenty to fifty darkspawn who are born already capable of walking. No mention of the gestation period.
Once again, World of Thedas. Can't wait to have this book in my hands.

Which is fast but not fast enough to make the Chantry's tale correct at least without a lot of logistical fudging.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
The Divine nearly called an Exalted March on her own cathedral because the mages were peacefully protesting.[/quote]
Which everyone tought was a ridiculous notion, her templars dissuaded her.[/quote]

The fact the Divine Ambrosia even serious suggested it is appalling.

[quote]

[quote]The Chantry called an Exalted March on the Dales when the Dalish, having fought for their isolation policies, was winning against Orlais and Val Reyeuox was being threatened.[/quote]
The Dalish had burned their way across the nation, slaugthering innocent people and were about to sack the heart of the Chantry. If the Divine had packed her stuff and abandoned Orlais, forumites would accuse of looking out for herself while her flock was slaugthered.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
[/quote]

In that case the Chantry should call an exalted march for every war.  It was a WAR.  Innocent people die, and there is at least strong reason to think that Orlais started it (and certainly didn't mind as long as they thought they could get some prime elven land cheap).  The message to the rest of Thedas was clear:  Toe the Chantry line, or you will be called heretics and an exalted march will be called against you.  In fact it wasn't just a threat:  The Chantry called many exalted marches against Tevinter which didn't actually threaten the Chantry itself at all.  They just dared to disagree.

[quote]

[quote]They called an exalted march on the peaceful Rivaini Qunari, and slaughtered in such great numbers that the veil was sundered.[/quote]
No, they called an Exalthed March on the Qunari who intended to submit the entirety of Thedas to their ideology. The human converts of Rivaine were just caugth in the war.
Obviously, the Chantry can't tolerate qunaris living in any nation under its control. Not because they deny the Maker, but because the minute the Beresaad show up at the gates; which they will, it's only a matter of time until the qunari invade again, that's no secret; they will join them.
Altough, I'd have just deported them.
[/quote]

They told them to convert or die and then the Chantry slaughtered the lot.  The entire espisode was despicable and inexcusable.

[quote]


[quote]The Chantry most certainly does not call Exalted Marches when humanity is threatened. They call them when they're being challenged by non-believers and mages. They call them when things don't go their way. [/quote]
The Dales who were intent on destroying the greatest mundane human nation in Thedas; Tevinter who are intent on enslaving all non-mages; Qunari who will spred their ideology at any cost; Bligths.
How was humanity not threatened in these situations?
[/quote]

The Dales were intent on winning their war.  The Dalish up until that war had expressly showed no interest in human affairs.   As for the Rivvanni Qunari, the Qunari honor their deals.  They had nothing to fear (at least in the short term) from the Beresad or Ben'Hassrath.  No, they were killed because they refused to convert.  The Chantry was LUCKY the Qunari honored the deal when technically the Chantry broke it.

[quote]

[quote]The daily functioning of Nevarra may end up being no different than all the other examples. The Chantry simply does not tolerate being questioned by heathen elves and qunari, or by another country with a different culture having a different interpretation of the Chant of Light.


[/quote]The Chantry hasn't done a thing against Nevarra.
[/quote]

Yet.  Of course now with Asunder it may well be too late (and a good thing).

[quote]
[quote]Chantry history shows us that they simply don't have the best interests of humanity at heart. Only themselves.

On a side note: Individual templars and priests can be really cool. The organization itself is not.
[/quote]
People often make these claims of the Chantry just serving its own purposes but I have yet to see evidence of this. There are no secret blood mage squads serving the Divine, using peasants as fuel. When Orlais marches, the Chantry doesn't send templars and mages to aid; the Chantry of Lothering did its best to protect the population when the Bann abandoned them; Grand Cleric Elthina would not abandon her flock and was murderer for it.
[/quote]

No, the Chantry is worse.  The Chantry genuinely believes that what is best for the Chantry is best for Humanity.  As for secret bloodmage squads, we do know the  Chantry DOES have a secret police (the Seekers) and given their supposed powers, I wouldn't be at all suprised if some of them WERE secret bloodmage death squads.  We already know that the Chantry isn't afraid of using bloodmagic (and lying about it) when it suits them (Phylacteries, and Adralla's Rite).

[quote]
The Chantry has done and continues doing questionable things but they have always been genuine and forthcoming about their motives.
If you don't support them, that's fine.

[/quote]

Actually the Chantry has been anything but open and genuine about their motives.  Individuals within the Chantry may have been, but the Chantry is at this point hopelessly corrupt and hopelessly mired in it's own dogma to the point where they read their own dogma to the point where they really believe that what is best for the Chantry is always best for everyone.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Oh, and since we were discussing this the other day, a normal darkspawn "birth" usually consists of twenty to fifty darkspawn who are born already capable of walking. No mention of the gestation period.
Once again, World of Thedas. Can't wait to have this book in my hands.

You got new previews? where did you get it?

[IanPolaris]

DKJaigen wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Oh, and since we were discussing this the other day, a normal darkspawn "birth" usually consists of twenty to fifty darkspawn who are born already capable of walking. No mention of the gestation period.
Once again, World of Thedas. Can't wait to have this book in my hands.

You got new previews? where did you get it?

The cynic in me wonders if the writers are going to try to fudge and/or rewrite their lore AGAIN to try to make things work.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Oh, and since we were discussing this the other day, a normal darkspawn "birth" usually consists of twenty to fifty darkspawn who are born already capable of walking. No mention of the gestation period.
Once again, World of Thedas. Can't wait to have this book in my hands.

Kinda doesn't jive well with this

David Gaider wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...
If I may ask david, How do Broodmothers give birth.

There are no eggs, no-- or you would probably have seen evidence of that. I'm not sure I want to go into detail regarding what an immature darkspawn looks like, but if you used the Children of Awakening as a guide you wouldn't be far off.

Unless by walking it just means they're in a baby size.

MisterJB wrote...

We can't ask the rivaini nationalists why they did what they did. Petrice appears more concerned with the fact people are denying the Maker rather than the fact qunari converts just increase a growingly hostile force inside your city but that doesn't need to eb the justification for everyone.

Except the codex says that their reason was because a return to the Maker failed.

According to the codex, the Llomerryn Accords dictated that qunari were given Par Vollen but nothing else. Rivain, north or south is not Par Vollen and while I wish the rivaini nationalistis had simply forced them to leave, the qunari converts broke the terms of the accord first by not abandoning the mainland of Thedas.

Actually, Kont-arr rests in Rivain and is a Qunari city. It's fully in their control, as was the northern village/city that the unarmed Qunari that were slaughtered like cattle resided in.

Thedosian society was fine with the Qunari remaining in Kont-arr it seems, as it's noted to be the last Qunari settlement where they reside on the mainland. And as the other Qunari settlement that the unarmed human converts resided in northern Rivain, I'm finding it hard to really consider them as having broken the treaty if the treaty ceded Kont-arr to the Qunari. If Kont-arr was ceded to them, then it's perhaps logical to assume other parts of northern Rivain was given to the Qunari.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Followed by an invasion of armed and armored drug addicts to force the heathens to convert.

Considering the hatred in Andrastian society towards heathens, elves, and mages, that's correct.

Even if Orlais invaded first, which has yet to be proven, the elves were the ones who spat upon every offer of friendship. That is what creates a climate of hatred and intolerance.

Trying to force the elves to convert isn't an offer of friendship, and their neighbor was leading Exalted Marches against their other neighbors in their imperialistic inception into an empire. I'd be wary, too, if my neighbor was looking to conquer everything in sight.

MisterJB wrote...

Good think Andrastean society is the only society ever where racism and intolerance exist. There are no dalish elves hating humans and magisters looking down on mundanes. No sir, that's all the Chantry. 

Having the Andrastian religion preach hatred and intolerance towards 'heathens' and mages certainly played a role.

MisterJB wrote...

Andraste's ass, Exalted Marches were only called when humanity itself was threatened. I was referring to the daily functioning of Nevarra.

This is incorrect. Drakon lead a number of Exalted Marches to acquire power for his empire in the making, and to nationalize his Cult of Andraste into an organized religion.

[dragonflight288]

Let's face it. History of Thedas, gathered throughout multiple codex entries, paints the Chantry as a whole in a very sour light. Defending the need to regulate mages is all well and good, but is it honestly too much to ask to treat them as human beings, which they are? (Unless they're elves or Kossith, that is, then treat them as you would anyone else.) Is it too much to admit that the templar order and the chantry simply don't have the best interests of humanity at heart, but merely themselves, and history has proven that they are politically involved with Orlais, practically in bed with them?

I have no doubt, based on history and how we've been treated by Dalish in two games, that the Dalish were quite hostile in attitude and may have done nothing to improve relations with their human allies, but historically and common sense says that the Orlesians had the most to gain by starting a war with the Dalish, and the Dalish had very little to gain by starting the fighting. It is very likely that Orlais started fighting, and when they started losing, that's when the Chantry declared an Exalted March, both to protect Val Reyeoux (where the Cathedral of the Divine is) but also to keep the Orlesians from falling to non-believers.

[TEWR]

It's worth noting, however, that the Chantry denies something that it actually did during the Qunari Wars.

For all the force that the Qunari armies had brought to bear on the north, they also lacked the sheer numbers of the humans. As each year passed, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines. Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the Qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses to this day

Good work there, Chantry!

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Unless by walking it just means they're in a baby size.

It's in the World of Thedas. I can post the page here for you to see altough you'll have to squint your eyes a bit.
"A bloated(?) broodmother will give birth to a large number(?) at once, between twenty and fifty children. They emerge from her giant womb as toddlers, often already able to walk, and develop rapidly during their first weeks on their own."

Except the codex says that their reason was because a return to the Maker failed.

Because if they returned to being an Andrastean or left, they wouldn't be dangerous.

Actually, Kont-arr rests in Rivain and is a Qunari city. It's fully in their control, as was the northern village/city that the unarmed Qunari that were slaughtered like cattle resided in.

Thedosian society was fine with the Qunari remaining in Kont-arr it seems, as it's noted to be the last Qunari settlement where they reside on the mainland. And as the other Qunari settlement that the unarmed human converts resided in northern Rivain, I'm finding it hard to really consider them as having broken the treaty if the treaty ceded Kont-arr to the Qunari. If Kont-arr was ceded to them, then it's perhaps logical to assume other parts of northern Rivain was given to the Qunari.

To qunari, a treaty are just words on the paper, Sten says so. They will break it anytime it suits their purpose.
The codex makes it very clear; the qunari were given the northern archipelago; Par Vollen; to reside in in exchange for peace and that the qunari converts broke it when they refused to leave mainland Thedas.
That a force of qunari remains in Rivan to this day simply means that the Rivaini Nationalists don't have the strength to force them out and that the rest of Thedas isn't willing to restart the war.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's worth noting, however, that the Chantry denies something that it actually did during the Qunari Wars.
Good work there, Chantry!

Telling a lie to avoid restarting a war that would cost thousands or even millions of lives?
Yeah, good work. No sarcasm.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
So of course you kill them all and let the Maker sort them out later.  Nice.

It was a nasty business but the qunari are going to invade at some point. That's not a possibility, it's a certainty.
And when that happens, these peaceful qunari will help them in an heartbeat. They had to be removed.

That is iffy and depends if the Accords count the Qun as a nation or a religion.  Given that it was the other nations of Thedas that signed it, I would say the Qunari are counted as a nation in this case.  Given that, what the Chantry did was despicable.  No other word for it.

The Qun itself extablishes that all to follow it are part of the same body therefore, the qunari converts in Rivain were as much part of the Qun as the Arishok just like my kidney is as much part of my body as my brain. They broke the accord first.
Oh, and it's not "The Chantry", it's Rivain. Nationalists helped slaugther those people.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Unless by walking it just means they're in a baby size.

It's in the World of Thedas. I can post the page here for you to see altough you'll have to squint your eyes a bit.
"A bloated(?) broodmother will give birth to a large number(?) at once, between twenty and fifty children. They emerge from her giant womb as toddlers, often already able to walk, and develop rapidly during their first weeks on their own."

Several things here:

1.  Given the quoted WoG already, this smells like Bioware desperately trying to change their existing lore ex-post facto and hoping we won't notice.  Either DG is wrong or this is.

2.  You are conveniently not mentioning that darkspawn children frequently fight and kill each other, and this helps weed out the weaker dawkspawn.  It also reduces the overall birthrate.  (There is a reason why many creatures that spawn millions of offspring often fully able to survive from birth such as octopi don't overwhelm the ecosystem.  Same here.)

3.  You are conveniently forgetting that we KNOW how fast it takes the Darkspawn to rebreed up to pre-blight numbers in the Deep Roads with their broodmothers intact.  It's fast but it's far from instantanteous and takes long enough to put the official Chantry version in severe doubt when compared with Shaparate Records (that have no reason to lie about this....but the Chantry does).

Except the codex says that their reason was because a return to the Maker failed.

Because if they returned to being an Andrastean or left, they wouldn't be dangerous.

The chantry sanctioned murdering civilians because they wouldn't covert.  That's vile by any standard.  Worse, they then lied about it.

Actually, Kont-arr rests in Rivain and is a Qunari city. It's fully in their control, as was the northern village/city that the unarmed Qunari that were slaughtered like cattle resided in.

Thedosian society was fine with the Qunari remaining in Kont-arr it seems, as it's noted to be the last Qunari settlement where they reside on the mainland. And as the other Qunari settlement that the unarmed human converts resided in northern Rivain, I'm finding it hard to really consider them as having broken the treaty if the treaty ceded Kont-arr to the Qunari. If Kont-arr was ceded to them, then it's perhaps logical to assume other parts of northern Rivain was given to the Qunari.

To qunari, a treaty are just words on the paper, Sten says so. They will break it anytime it suits their purpose.
The codex makes it very clear; the qunari were given the northern archipelago; Par Vollen; to reside in in exchange for peace and that the qunari converts broke it when they refused to leave mainland Thedas.
That a force of qunari remains in Rivan to this day simply means that the Rivaini Nationalists don't have the strength to force them out and that the rest of Thedas isn't willing to restart the war.

Qunari do not abandon a deal.  Fenris says this and he has no love lost for the Qunari.  I have no doubt that eventually the Qunari will attack again, but speculating that the Qun might attack because they are an agressive religion as a justification for slaughtering so many CIVILIANS that the Veil was torn is simply beyond the pale.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's worth noting, however, that the Chantry denies something that it actually did during the Qunari Wars.
Good work there, Chantry!

Telling a lie to avoid restarting a war that would cost thousands or even millions of lives?
Yeah, good work. No sarcasm.

Actually the reason the Qunari agreed (see Lloymellan(sp?) Codex entry) to a truce at all was because the chantry was being bloodthirsty.  It's the Chantry that was acting like bloodsoaked barbarians, not the Qunari whatever else you may feel about the Qunari.

There is simply no justification for this, and the fact the Chantry continues to lie about it means that even the Chantry knows this (even if they won't admit it).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Trying to force the elves to convert isn't an offer of friendship, and their neighbor was leading Exalted Marches against their other neighbors in their imperialistic inception into an empire. I'd be wary, too, if my neighbor was looking to conquer everything in sight.

First of fall, sending missionaries is not forcing the elves to convert. Accept that. It may have happened later; which has yet to be proven; but at that point the elves had already done fostered a climate of mistrust and hate between themselves and the rest of Thedas.
Sending missionaries, traders and diplomats is an offer of friendship which the elves spat upon. If you do that, don't be surprised if you turn your neighbor into an enemy.
Being wary is one thing; being hateful and intolerant is another. The elves were the latter.

Having the Andrastian religion preach hatred and intolerance towards 'heathens' and mages certainly played a role.

Maybe the elves should have accepted humanity's offer of friendship when they were willing. Maybe the elves should be grateful the Chantry ordered human kingdoms to give refuge to the elves after the Dales fell.

As for mages:
"Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and
sisters. Those who reject the laws of the Maker and the words of His prophet are apostate. They shall be cast out, and given no place among us."
The Chantry's official stance is caution, not hatred. Some mothers might preache it but you can hardly control the world of thousands of priests across an entire continent.

This is incorrect. Drakon lead a number of Exalted Marches to acquire power for his empire in the making, and to nationalize his Cult of Andraste into an organized religion.

When I was kid, I got involved in a brawl between two groups of kids. At the time, I called it a battle. That naive belief didn't make it so.
Likewise, any war where only the orlesian forces are involved is not an Exalted March. A proper, bonafide Exalted March requires the participation of every Andrastean nation in Thedas.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 février 2013 - 07:02 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...
*snip*

My thanks you have.

It states that they're born in a toddler-esque stage, which doesn't contradict DG's statement. However, it also states that these Darkspawn will often fight amongst each other as these toddlers, which will still reduce the amount that is created.

Because if they returned to being an Andrastean or left, they wouldn't be dangerous.

Whatever threat they might be, killing them for their religion is not the answer. How about attempting diplomatic negotiations with the Qunari leaders who actually do have authority over them? Even if the Qunari view such treaty-signings and negotiations as little more then a delay to their plans, they are the ones who can tell the Rivaini converts what to do.

A purge by the sword is just a boneheaded -- and vile -- move after you've just barely managed to eke out a (temporary) victory in a series of wars that nearly bankrupted the entire continent.

To qunari, a treaty are just words on the paper, Sten says so. They will break it anytime it suits their purpose.

Of course. It is known. As to the rest of your post portion, IanPolaris answered it as I would've.

Telling a lie to avoid restarting a war that would cost thousands or even millions of lives?
Yeah, good work. No sarcasm.

Actually, the Qunari value people who speak the truth about crimes. The Arishok is deeply moved -- as much as a Qunari can be -- when Hawke tells him bluntly of all the crimes that have been going on.

And the Qunari only agreed to the treaty signing because of the huge death toll it was taking on the populus, by the Chantry's own actions. The Qunari do not waste resources, life of society being one of the most precious resources of all.

Likewise, any war where only the orlesian forces are involved is not an Exalted March. A proper, bonafide Exalted March requires the participation of every Andrastean nation in Thedas.

When Chantry officials cite it as a series of Exalted Marches, then I'd say it's tough to argue with that.

Andraste led the first Exalted March, Drakon led a series of Exalted Marches to conquer nearby city-states because he belonged to one of the numerous cults of Andraste and wanted his to be top dog, and he built the Chantry/Grand Cathedral.

He even wanted the Chantry's faith and the Orlesian Empire's borders to spread across the known world, and the Divines have always been political buddies with Orlesian rulers.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2013 - 07:16 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Trying to force the elves to convert isn't an offer of friendship, and their neighbor was leading Exalted Marches against their other neighbors in their imperialistic inception into an empire. I'd be wary, too, if my neighbor was looking to conquer everything in sight.

First of fall, sending missionaries is not forcing the elves to convert. Accept that. It may have happened later; which has yet to be proven; but at that point the elves had already done fostered a climate of mistrust and hate between themselves and the rest of Thedas.
Sending missionaries, traders and diplomats is an offer of friendship which the elves spat upon. If you do that, don't be surprised if you turn your neighbor into an enemy.
Being wary is one thing; being hateful and intolerant is another. The elves were the latter.

Sending missionaries is NOT a sign of friendship.  Indeed in Saudi Arabia you can be sentenced to hard time (even as a foreigner) if you engage in missionary work or give aid to those that do....and I don't see a call for the invasion of Saudi Arabia.  In fact Saudi Arabia isn't the only country with such laws only the one that I am immediately familiar with.

As for the Dalish being isolationist and unfriendly, I agree on both counts.  I also will agree that this means you have less friends and less help when you need them, yes.  Diplomatically the Dalish had a lot to learn and needed a lot less arrogance.  That STILL doesn't justify the Chantry's actions even if the Dalish did attack first (which is highly unlikely in my mind).  In fact the Chantry stayed out of it until it actually looked like Orlais was going to lose.  This isn't "saving humanity from the heathans", this is bailing out your number one meal-ticket and political pet.....and don't think the example of the Dalish was lost on any other nation in Thedas.  It wasn't.

In fact Modern Tevinter underscores the point.  If you have a religion that the Chantry doesn't like, the Chantry will try to wipe you out, whether you are a threat or not (and no Modern Tevinter was no threat to the rest of Thedas....Tevinter had their hands full with the Qunari).

Having the Andrastian religion preach hatred and intolerance towards 'heathens' and mages certainly played a role.

Maybe the elves should have accepted humanity's offer of friendship when they were willing. Maybe the elves should be grateful the Chantry ordered human kingdoms to give refuge to the elves after the Dales fell.

Why?  What gives you the right to declare what a soveign people should or shouldn't have done?  Would it have been better had the Dalish been more diplomatic?  Sure.  Was that enough to justify the Chantry wiping them out.

No way.

As for mages:
"Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and
sisters. Those who reject the laws of the Maker and the words of His prophet are apostate. They shall be cast out, and given no place among us."
The Chantry's official stance is caution, not hatred. Some mothers might preache it but you can hardly control the world of thousands of priests across an entire continent.

The chantry openly calls magic a curse and the Mother at Redcliff will admit to a human warden mage that the chantry has been known to raise mobs against mages.  The chantry (esp when you read the actual chant of light) is extremely hateful and hypocritical towards magic. 

This is incorrect. Drakon lead a number of Exalted Marches to acquire power for his empire in the making, and to nationalize his Cult of Andraste into an organized religion.

When I was kid, I got involved in a brawl between two groups of kids. At the time, I called it a battle. That naive belief didn't make it so.
Likewise, any war where only the orlesian forces are involved is not an Exalted March. A proper, bonafide Exalted March requires the participation of every Andrastean nation in Thedas.

The Chantry supported and aided Drakon every step of the way, though.  Not only that, but the Chantry hasn't called Exalted Marches in self defense with the sole exception of the Qunari invasion.  Otherwise they have called it for the sake of the Chantry.  It's worth noting that the Chantry suppoted the Orlesian occupation (which was a very harsh occupation) up to the hilt.  In fact they did so to such an extend that King Maric and Gen Loghain nearly had the Chantry kicked out.  It's one reason why the Chantry doesn't have the political power in Fereldan that it has elsewhere.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 18 février 2013 - 07:21 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
1.  Given the quoted WoG already, this smells like Bioware desperately trying to change their existing lore ex-post facto and hoping we won't notice.  Either DG is wrong or this is.

Or Mr.Gaider hadn't fully decided how darkspawn biology worked three years ago and now he has. I'd say an officially published book is more canon than a post on the forums.

2.  You are conveniently not mentioning that darkspawn children frequently fight and kill each other, and this helps weed out the weaker dawkspawn.  It also reduces the overall birthrate.  (There is a reason why many creatures that spawn millions of offspring often fully able to survive from birth such as octopi don't overwhelm the ecosystem.  Same here.)

Because we don't know the number of darkspawn children who would be considered weak. It could be a small number. But it's true, a birth of fifty ogres doesn't mean all fifty will survive.

3.  You are conveniently forgetting that we KNOW how fast it takes the Darkspawn to rebreed up to pre-blight numbers in the Deep Roads with their broodmothers intact.  It's fast but it's far from instantanteous and takes long enough to put the official Chantry version in severe doubt when compared with Shaparate Records (that have no reason to lie about this....but the Chantry does).

And you are conveniently forgetting that broodmothers may be killed before, during or after a Blight, that we don't know the gestations period, that we don't know how many broodmothers there were before the First Blight, etc.
There were ogres in the First Blight despite Qunari having yet to set foot on Thedosian chores so, obviously, the dwarven broodmothers wouldn't be their only source of Spawn.

Besides, we know the Chantry is partially true. The Magisters did invade the Black City. If anything, they might be misguided in their belief of who created the Darkspawn but there is nothings that indicates theya re lying.

Qunari do not abandon a deal.  Fenris says this and he has no love lost for the Qunari.

Qunari abandon a deal whenever they please.

• Sten: They stopped fighting for their own reasons. And they will resume it again, one day. The agreement means nothing to them.
• Alistair: But I thought you said your people believed in honor.
• Sten: They do. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our warships back to your shores.

I have no doubt that eventually the Qunari will attack again, but speculating that the Qun might attack because they are an agressive religion as a justification for slaughtering so many CIVILIANS that the Veil was torn is simply beyond the pale.

It's not a speculation, it's a certainty. Rivaini were simply removing an enemy from their shores who shouldn't even be there in the first place due to the accord signed by the Ariqun, Arishok and Arigena.
But, of course, qunari care nothing for deals.
Do you think qunari would allow Andrasteans to live in their lands without either converting them or turning them into a mindless laborer?

Actually the reason the Qunari agreed (see Lloymellan(sp?) Codex entry) to a truce at all was because the chantry was being bloodthirsty.  It's the Chantry that was acting like bloodsoaked barbarians, not the Qunari whatever else you may feel about the Qunari.

The qunari are not wasteful, that is true which doesn't mean they don't brainwash people or enslave them through the Sar-Kamek. And thousands of lives would be lost in the battlefields; human and kossith alike.
I know what the codex says but I question it. Another codex says that Thedas had finally managed to push them back to Seheron which is just as likely to be the reason they wished for a respite.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

and no Modern Tevinter was no threat to the rest of Thedas....Tevinter had their hands full with the Qunari).

IIRC, Tevinter had its change prior to the arrival of the Qunari, and the Exalted Marches called against Tevinter's change in doctrine was what cemented the schism.

In truth, Tevinter's change in official doctrine was not a problem. Their change was just "Magic should help society as much as possible".

The problem was when, through arguments with White Chantry Thedas, Tevinter put a male mage in place as their Divine. Granted, the true corruption didn't seep back in until 4 centuries later where that Archon removed the prohibitions against Mages being politicians.

Even so, Haven shows us that a Male priest who is also a Mage happens to be something that's held since Andraste's time, supporting the notion that Andraste was a Mage and that Tevinter was more accurate in having male mage priests. But Tevinter themselves corrupted the idea.

In Haven, Revered Father Eirik wasn't the man in charge -- Kolgrim was.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
1.  Given the quoted WoG already, this smells like Bioware desperately trying to change their existing lore ex-post facto and hoping we won't notice.  Either DG is wrong or this is.[/quote]
Or Mr.Gaider hadn't fully decided how darkspawn biology worked three years ago and now he has. I'd say an officially published book is more canon than a post on the forums.
[/quote]

Well, with all due respect, I am sniffing another retcon, and even if I except that as gospel it doesn't come close to proving your point.  It doesn't come close.

[quote]

[quote]2.  You are conveniently not mentioning that darkspawn children frequently fight and kill each other, and this helps weed out the weaker dawkspawn.  It also reduces the overall birthrate.  (There is a reason why many creatures that spawn millions of offspring often fully able to survive from birth such as octopi don't overwhelm the ecosystem.  Same here.)[/quote]
Because we don't know the number of darkspawn children who would be considered weak. It could be a small number. But it's true, a birth of fifty ogres doesn't mean all fifty will survive.
[/quote]

Actually we do at least on a gross statistical level because we know how long it takes for Darkspawn to recover from blights.  It's fairly fast but it's far from as fast as the Chantry's story would have us believe.


[quote]

[quote]3.  You are conveniently forgetting that we KNOW how fast it takes the Darkspawn to rebreed up to pre-blight numbers in the Deep Roads with their broodmothers intact.  It's fast but it's far from instantanteous and takes long enough to put the official Chantry version in severe doubt when compared with Shaparate Records (that have no reason to lie about this....but the Chantry does).[/quote]
And you are conveniently forgetting that broodmothers may be killed before, during or after a Blight, that we don't know the gestations period, that we don't know how many broodmothers there were before the First Blight, etc.
There were ogres in the First Blight despite Qunari having yet to set foot on Thedosian chores so, obviously, the dwarven broodmothers wouldn't be their only source of Spawn.
[/quote]

Oh please.  We know that Broodmothers are well protected and essentially immobile.  We also know that even a weak Broodmother will take out a full company of hardened men easy.  We also know the blights are NOT fought below the earth...the Dwarves take advantage of the respite to regroup and recoup (and we are even told as much).  That means the number of Broodmother casualties in each blight has to be neglible.

[quote]
Besides, we know the Chantry is partially true. The Magisters did invade the Black City. If anything, they might be misguided in their belief of who created the Darkspawn but there is nothings that indicates theya re lying.
[/quote]

The Chantry isn't lying about the magisters going to the black city.  What the chantry may well be lying about is that this (the abuse of magic) created the blight.  If the Chantry is lying about this, then there goes the major moral underpinning for much of the Chantry's anti-magic dogma.


[quote]
[quote]
Qunari do not abandon a deal.  Fenris says this and he has no love lost for the Qunari.[/quote]
Qunari abandon a deal whenever they please.

• Sten: They stopped fighting for their own reasons. And they will resume it again, one day. The agreement means nothing to them.
  
• Alistair: But I thought you said your people believed in honor.
  
• Sten: They do. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our warships back to your shores.

[/quote]
I also note that the convo with Fenris takes place after the conversation with Alistair.  I also note that the Arishok and the Qunari in general respect those that tell the truth, and even the Seneschal says that underhaned behavior (such as sneak attacks and plotting) is completely contrary to the Qunari nature.  If the Qunari decide to attack agaion, they will do so obviously and openly.

The point being, is that NONE of that excuses the Chantry's actions one iota. 

[quote]

[quote]I have no doubt that eventually the Qunari will attack again, but speculating that the Qun might attack because they are an agressive religion as a justification for slaughtering so many CIVILIANS that the Veil was torn is simply beyond the pale.[/quote]
It's not a speculation, it's a certainty. Rivaini were simply removing an enemy from their shores who shouldn't even be there in the first place due to the accord signed by the Ariqun, Arishok and Arigena.
But, of course, qunari care nothing for deals.
Do you think qunari would allow Andrasteans to live in their lands without either converting them or turning them into a mindless laborer?
[/quote]

Slaughtering all Rivanni civilians who were qunari is still inexcusable and lying about it is less so.  Just because their religion MAY be a threat does not justify that sort of bloodthirsty act of mass murder, and that is what the Chantry sanctioned:  Mass Murder.  Call it what it was.

[quote]
[quote]
Actually the reason the Qunari agreed (see Lloymellan(sp?) Codex entry) to a truce at all was because the chantry was being bloodthirsty.  It's the Chantry that was acting like bloodsoaked barbarians, not the Qunari whatever else you may feel about the Qunari.[/quote]
The qunari are not wasteful, that is true which doesn't mean they don't brainwash people or enslave them through the Sar-Kamek. And thousands of lives would be lost in the battlefields; human and kossith alike.
I know what the codex says but I question it. Another codex says that Thedas had finally managed to push them back to Seheron which is just as likely to be the reason they wished for a respite.
[/quote]

The Qunari do permit others to live without following the Qun.  The source material we have is very clear about this.  Pity the Chantry won't do the same.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

There were ogres in the First Blight despite Qunari having yet to set foot on Thedosian chores so, obviously, the dwarven broodmothers wouldn't be their only source of Spawn.

That doesn't mean that Corypheus and his drinking buddies were the first Darkspawn in existence.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

and no Modern Tevinter was no threat to the rest of Thedas....Tevinter had their hands full with the Qunari).

IIRC, Tevinter had its change prior to the arrival of the Qunari, and the Exalted Marches called against Tevinter's change in doctrine was what cemented the schism.

In truth, Tevinter's change in official doctrine was not a problem. Their change was just "Magic should help society as much as possible".

The problem was when, through arguments with White Chantry Thedas, Tevinter put a male mage in place as their Divine. Granted, the true corruption didn't seep back in until 4 centuries later where that Archon removed the prohibitions against Mages being politicians.

Even so, Haven shows us that a Male priest who is also a Mage happens to be something that's held since Andraste's time, supporting the notion that Andraste was a Mage and that Tevinter was more accurate in having male mage priests. But Tevinter themselves corrupted the idea.

In Haven, Revered Father Eirik wasn't the man in charge -- Kolgrim was.

I stand corrected, but honestly reading the unvarnished Chant of Light, I have to agree that the Tevinter Interpretation is probably far likelier to be closer to the 'truth' as Andraste intended it than the Orelsian chantry version (and yes I also noticed that in Haven...and yes Haven was NOT run by a mage....it was run by a Warrior Priest, Kolgrim).

I think my basic point stands though.  Tevinter wasn't asking the rest of Thedas to accept their change in doctrine.  They simply refused to change when Val Royaleux demanded it.  Tevinter wanted to be left alone to worship the Maker in their own right.

Given that Tevinter was able to hold off the rest of Thedas combined multiple times, perhaps it is good that the Imperial Chantry was NOT as agressive and missionary as the Orlesian one.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

There were ogres in the First Blight despite Qunari having yet to set foot on Thedosian chores so, obviously, the dwarven broodmothers wouldn't be their only source of Spawn.

That doesn't mean that Corypheus and his drinking buddies were the first Darkspawn in existence.

Indeed, and as I recall, I think DG said there was a reason for this that we'd learn later.  My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the blight and darkspawn are actually older than most believe.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

There were ogres in the First Blight despite Qunari having yet to set foot on Thedosian chores so, obviously, the dwarven broodmothers wouldn't be their only source of Spawn.

That doesn't mean that Corypheus and his drinking buddies were the first Darkspawn in existence.

Indeed, and as I recall, I think DG said there was a reason for this that we'd learn later.  My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the blight and darkspawn are actually older than most believe.

-Polaris

You are correct in your recollection. And I'd wager your guess is correct as well, as it jives well with my theory on the PT. The PT is over 10,000 years old, whereas the Chantry would have us believe the First Blight happened.... 1,000-1,400 years ago.

IanPolaris wrote...

I think my basic point stands though.  Tevinter wasn't asking the rest of Thedas to accept their change in doctrine.  They simply refused to change when Val Royaleux demanded it.  Tevinter wanted to be left alone to worship the Maker in their own right.

Given that Tevinter was able to hold off the rest of Thedas combined multiple times, perhaps it is good that the Imperial Chantry was NOT as agressive and missionary as the Orlesian one.

Yeah, I agree that they weren't then a threat. Their change may not have been sanctioned or approved, but they weren't a threat and were hardly making an effort to impose that view on the rest of Thedas.

One could argue that the White Chantry's desire to "defeat the rebels" is actually what led to Tevinter becoming corrupt again as soon as it did. Whether it would've become corrupt if they hadn't done that, who can say? More then likely it would've, but it might've taken longer for it to happen.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2013 - 07:47 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Sending missionaries is NOT a sign of friendship.

Right, just look at Brother Burkel that evil, evil man. What darstadly deeds has done today? Like, feeding a mother and her child who dwarven society has deemed unworthy to exist because an acestor did something bad. Teaching an entire class of people who have been taught from birth that they are less than dirt that they are children of the Maker who loves everyone single one of them.
The monster! Clearly, he is an threat to all dwarves everywhere and should be expelled imediatelly. Let him preach about love and charity somewhere else.

And I'm out of time, I'll answer the rest later. Don't think I'm ignoring it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 février 2013 - 08:08 .