546 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

Sending missionaries isn't a sign of friendship.

But it's not an evil one either, Polaris didn't imply so either.

It is rather ignorant however.

[shepard1038]

Yeah the Dales were so friendly. Tell that to the countless of people in Montsimmard the darkspawn killed while the elven army watched nearby or the thousands of innocent civilians they killed and stole their belongings in Orlais.

Or the Qunari who took children from their families to be raised as Qunari and dismantled families. While adults are sent into labor camps for re-education and those that refused, the Qunari used a sustance called qamek that turned them into mindless laborers then forced into servitude or sent to mines. Many will perish from starvation or exhaution and others would be killed.

Modifié par shepard1038, 18 février 2013 - 08:58 .

[Knight of Dane]

Not those that convert, they are viddathari and we saw in DA2 how far the Arishok was willing to go to protect them.

[shepard1038]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Not those that convert, they are viddathari and we saw in DA2 how far the Arishok was willing to go to protect them.

Aren't viddathari people that willingly convert to the qun and may take a high position in the Qunari society?

Modifié par shepard1038, 18 février 2013 - 09:06 .

[Knight of Dane]

Did a check and you might be right.
The wiki says:
"The latter appear to be reasonable if an individual doesn't resist indoctrination, and a new convert, or viddathari may take a high position in the Qunari society."

[shepard1038]

Are Viddathari people that have been recently converted into the Qun, but haven't taken a position on the Qun so they still aren't Qunari? Qunari lore is confusing.

Modifié par shepard1038, 18 février 2013 - 09:28 .

[TEWR]

The Qunari in general are confusing. Confusion and the Qunari go together like Sandal and pie.

[TEWR]

shepard1038 wrote...

Yeah the Dales were so friendly. Tell that to the countless of people in Montsimmard the darkspawn killed while the elven army watched nearby or the thousands of innocent civilians they killed and stole their belongings in Orlais.

To the first, as far as I know aside from the wiki's statement there's never been anything to support that. Even so, I wouldn't take that as being indicative that they didn't care, because anyone -- even an Elven supremacist -- would be able to see that the Darkspawn require everyone working together.

Second, I've posited in the past that they foolishly -- but understandably -- decided when the Blight began to debate on the matter for years like their ancestors did regarding whatever was a topic of interest before Tevinter crushed them, since the Elves of the Dales desired to rebuild all aspects of their lost culture. And that when they did decide to help, they were a bit late to the party and Montsimmard looked to be hopeless.

You can't really blame a group of people (or a general) for not wasting soldiers if a battle appears unwinnable. Even if it wasn't unwinnable, if it appeared such then it's justifiable for them to not join in.

Third, we at least have the Tale of Iloren showing us that some parts of the Elven community of the Dales did indeed fight the Darkspawn of the Second Blight.

I'm finding it hard to really believe the Elves of the Dales wouldn't have fought the Darkspawn, honestly. Hell, most of Thedas likes to believe that Andraste didn't fight with an army of barbarians and Elves at her beck and call -- the latter due to the Canticle of Shartan being removed from the canon Chant of Light -- so I wouldn't be surprised if people decided to just say "They didn't help".

Or the Qunari who took children from their families to be raised as Qunari and dismantled families. While adults are sent into labor camps for re-education and those that refused, the Qunari used a sustance called qamek that turned them into mindless laborers then forced into servitude or sent to mines. Many will perish from starvation or exhaution and others would be killed.

It's kind of a poor argument to call the Qunari oppressive dicks to those that refuse to accept their doctrine when the Chantry isn't any better.

Besides, while the notion of dismantling family units to us is abhorrent it's... not so for the Qunari. Mainly because they consider family to be those you spend your life with, blood being irrelevant -- as well as virtually an unknown to Qunari. Also because they don't have families. The very idea is not a concept of the Qun and is alien to them.

Whether it's better or worse is arguable. Does one need to be around your relatives to grow up well enough? I'd argue no. 

And besides, I doubt the Qunari who do not waste life would be so careless as to have a person that refused to convert work themselves to death. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2013 - 10:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
To the first, as far as I know aside from the wiki's statement there's never been anything to support that. Even so, I wouldn't take that as being indicative that they didn't care, because anyone -- even an Elven supremacist -- would be able to see that the Darkspawn require everyone working together.

Tell that to Loghain.

It's kind of a poor argument to call the Qunari oppressive dicks to those that refuse to accept their doctrine when the Chantry isn't any better.

The Chantry is a LOT better.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's kind of a poor argument to call the Qunari oppressive dicks to those that refuse to accept their doctrine when the Chantry isn't any better.

The Chantry is a LOT better.

The Qunari don't execute civilians in job lots when they won't covert.  The Chantry does just that (and lies about it).  I have no love for the Qunari, but the Chantry is worse in this regard.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

Yeah the Dales were so friendly. Tell that to the countless of people in Montsimmard the darkspawn killed while the elven army watched nearby or the thousands of innocent civilians they killed and stole their belongings in Orlais.

I never said the Dales were friendly and I already said their diplomacy stank rotten eggs, but not participating in a battle is NOT the same as acting against a nation.  That and we already know that the Dales and Dalish have helped against blights and even had a treaty with the Wardens dating from this period that obligated them to future aid.

It doesn't justify the Chantry's actions.

Or the Qunari who took children from their families to be raised as Qunari and dismantled families. While adults are sent into labor camps for re-education and those that refused, the Qunari used a sustance called qamek that turned them into mindless laborers then forced into servitude or sent to mines. Many will perish from starvation or exhaution and others would be killed.

That same codex entry also says that many of these stories may be little more than Chantry propoganda, and that there were just as many stories of the Qunari treating non-Qun humanely.  While I do not approve of the Qun in the slightest, the Qunari do NOT massacre civilians in job lots when they won't convert.  The Chantry does (and lies about it).

-Polaris

[Insaner Robot]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's kind of a poor argument to call the Qunari oppressive dicks to those that refuse to accept their doctrine when the Chantry isn't any better.

Besides, while the notion of dismantling family units to us is abhorrent it's... not so for the Qunari. Mainly because they consider family to be those you spend your life with, blood being irrelevant -- as well as virtually an unknown to Qunari. Also because they don't have families. The very idea is not a concept of the Qun and is alien to them.

Whether it's better or worse is arguable. Does one need to be around your relatives to grow up well enough? I'd argue no. 

And besides, I doubt the Qunari who do not waste life would be so careless as to have a person that refused to convert work themselves to death. 

From what's currently known of the qunari they're as much oppressive dicks as the chantry or anyone else can be.



from the wiki:

Antaam, the Qunari army is lead by the Arishok. The Qunari army is the eyes, ears, legs, arms, and hands of the creature, everything that one needs to interact with the world, and so most Qunari encountered by Theodesians belong to the military.

Refusal to cooperate is seen as illness to be cured, and those who resist are taken to the viddathlok, temples dedicated to healing. What happens later is not quite clear, but it is known that the Qunari use a substance called qamek to turn them into mindless laborers forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps. Some would return, changed in profound ways, some would perish of exhaustion or starvation and some would be slain.



So their primary interaction with other nations is through their military and if you don't convert you're obviously ill and need fixing.

Don't get me wrong though I liked Sten and was civil and honest to the Arishok in Kirkwall.

[IanPolaris]

Insaner Robot wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's kind of a poor argument to call the Qunari oppressive dicks to those that refuse to accept their doctrine when the Chantry isn't any better.

Besides, while the notion of dismantling family units to us is abhorrent it's... not so for the Qunari. Mainly because they consider family to be those you spend your life with, blood being irrelevant -- as well as virtually an unknown to Qunari. Also because they don't have families. The very idea is not a concept of the Qun and is alien to them.

Whether it's better or worse is arguable. Does one need to be around your relatives to grow up well enough? I'd argue no. 

And besides, I doubt the Qunari who do not waste life would be so careless as to have a person that refused to convert work themselves to death. 

From what's currently known of the qunari they're as much oppressive dicks as the chantry or anyone else can be.



from the wiki:

Antaam, the Qunari army is lead by the Arishok. The Qunari army is the eyes, ears, legs, arms, and hands of the creature, everything that one needs to interact with the world, and so most Qunari encountered by Theodesians belong to the military.

Refusal to cooperate is seen as illness to be cured, and those who resist are taken to the viddathlok, temples dedicated to healing. What happens later is not quite clear, but it is known that the Qunari use a substance called qamek to turn them into mindless laborers forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps. Some would return, changed in profound ways, some would perish of exhaustion or starvation and some would be slain.



So their primary interaction with other nations is through their military and if you don't convert you're obviously ill and need fixing.

Don't get me wrong though I liked Sten and was civil and honest to the Arishok in Kirkwall.

Which does NOT include mass killing those that won't convert.  Don't get me wrong, the Qunari are brutal, but what you describe compared with mass murder......I'd have to say the Qunari are better.

-Polaris

[Insaner Robot]

I'm not sure either are better, mind rape or murder, I wouldn't want to choose either one of them. Just imagine the scale to which both would happen in the event of full scale war.

Modifié par Insaner Robot, 18 février 2013 - 11:51 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Qunari don't execute civilians in job lots when they won't covert.  The Chantry does just that (and lies about it).  I have no love for the Qunari, but the Chantry is worse in this regard.

Those who don't convert to the Qun are given sark-kamek and turned into mindless laborers so, they basically do the same thing. Except the Chantry doesn't do purges often and simply demanded the qunari abide by the treaty their leaders had signed. Did the Arishok allow any Andrasteans who didn't want to convert out of Kirkwall? I don't think so.
And the Chantry doesn't attempt to control every aspect of your life down to the day you will be born.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 février 2013 - 12:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

@ Polaris - mass murder is NOT the Chantry modus operandi.
You are taking an isolated incident and using it as some blanket operational model.

Also, what the Delish did or didn't do is vastly open to debate - either way the version of who attacked whom differs greatly.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
As for the Dalish being isolationist and unfriendly, I agree on both counts.  I also will agree that this means you have less friends and less help when you need them, yes.  Diplomatically the Dalish had a lot to learn and needed a lot less arrogance.  That STILL doesn't justify the Chantry's actions even if the Dalish did attack first (which is highly unlikely in my mind).  In fact the Chantry stayed out of it until it actually looked like Orlais was going to lose.  This isn't "saving humanity from the heathans", this is bailing out your number one meal-ticket and political pet.....and don't think the example of the Dalish was lost on any other nation in Thedas.  It wasn't.

So, you believe the Chantry should just have allowed the elves to slaugther an untold number of human beings and burn their seat to the ground? That's ridiculous. This wasn't a matter of theological differences, this was a matter of elves killing men, women and children and attempting to destroy the Chantry.
They were saving the ballwark of human civilization from those who would destroy it. If the Divine had packed her stuff and moved to the Free Marches, she would be accused of leaving her people to die by foumites.
Damned if you, damned if you don't

In fact Modern Tevinter underscores the point.  If you have a religion that the Chantry doesn't like, the Chantry will try to wipe you out, whether you are a threat or not (and no Modern Tevinter was no threat to the rest of Thedas....Tevinter had their hands full with the Qunari).

Tevinter returned to its mage supremacist and slaving ways before the Qunari showed up. Modern Tevinter would enslave all non-mages as quickly as Ancient Tevinter if allowed.

Why?  What gives you the right to declare what a soveign people should or shouldn't have done?  Would it have been better had the Dalish been more diplomatic?  Sure.

The elves were the ones who fostered a climate of distrust and hatred amongst the Dales and human nations. If you refuse your neighbors when they are trying to be your friends, don't be surprised if they become your enemies instead.

Was that enough to justify the Chantry wiping them out.

No way.

They were done unto as they attempted to do unto Orlais.

The chantry openly calls magic a curse and the Mother at Redcliff will admit to a human warden mage that the chantry has been known to raise mobs against mages.  The chantry (esp when you read the actual chant of light) is extremely hateful and hypocritical towards magic.

The Chantry calls magic a curse and a gift and it is dealing with it as it should be dealt with. With extreme caution.
Their policy is to bring mages to a tower where they are prisioners, certainly, but also well cared for. Not lynch them on the street. But, of course, the Divine can't be expected to be able to control what every single priest across an entire continent does. We can't do it nowadays and we have internet and airplanes.

The Chantry supported and aided Drakon every step of the way, though.

Drakon and the Chantry brought peace and stability to a continent that was tearing itself apart through infighting and unsactioned magic.

Not only that, but the Chantry hasn't called Exalted Marches in self defense with the sole exception of the Qunari invasion.

The elves who would have destroyed Orlais; Tevinter who would enslave all non mages; Qunari would forcibly convert everying into their domineering ideology.
All Exalted Marches have been called to protect the human race.

It's worth noting that the Chantry suppoted the Orlesian occupation (which was a very harsh occupation) up to the hilt.

Do you expect the Grand Cleric of Orlais or the Divine who have the emperor next door to do their best to anger him?
But the Chantry did not send mages or templars with the orlesian army nor did they abuse the population in any way. The Grand Cleric of Denerim did her best to protect the fereldans from Meghren's madness.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Whatever threat they might be, killing them for their religion is not the answer. How about attempting diplomatic negotiations with the Qunari leaders who actually do have authority over them? Even if the Qunari view such treaty-signings and negotiations as little more then a delay to their plans, they are the ones who can tell the Rivaini converts what to do.

A purge by the sword is just a boneheaded -- and vile -- move after you've just barely managed to eke out a (temporary) victory in a series of wars that nearly bankrupted the entire continent.

I don't disagree with you. However, it's entirely possible, likely really, that the Rivaini Chantry attempted to appeal to the Triumvirate and didn't get results which prompted the massacre.
The qunari show us the same courtesy. Perhaps not slaugther but certainly reeducation or enslavement if that fails.

I believe I've already adressed the rest of your post in other responses. Forgive me for choosing not to repeat myself so much.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Well, with all due respect, I am sniffing another retcon, and even if I except that as gospel it doesn't come close to proving your point.  It doesn't come close.

Retcon would require the games having extablished that darkspawn are born in a motionless larva form which it didn't. We have a post on a forum by the main writer and it doesn't actually contradict what is written in the book since the Children are clearly capable of moving even at their weakest.

Oh please.  We know that Broodmothers are well protected and essentially immobile.  We also know that even a weak Broodmother will take out a full company of hardened men easy.  We also know the blights are NOT fought below the earth...the Dwarves take advantage of the respite to regroup and recoup (and we are even told as much).  That means the number of Broodmother casualties in each blight has to be neglible.

Our Warden alone kills four of them, Kardol speaks of fighting the darkspawn to their lairs which implies that it is something that the Legion of the Dead do and it makes sense to take advantage of Blights to do this.

Tell you what, if you are so sure that ten years before a large underground maze becomes infested proves so much that the Chantry is statistically wrong despite not knowing the gestation period of darkspawn, how many usually survive or how many broodmothers there were before the First Blight, I'd like to see you do the math.

The Chantry isn't lying about the magisters going to the black city.  What the chantry may well be lying about is that this (the abuse of magic) created the blight.  If the Chantry is lying about this, then there goes the major moral underpinning for much of the Chantry's anti-magic dogma.

As I said, there is no evidence that the Chantry is lying so much as that it could, possibily, be wrong. You're just assuming they are lying because you don't like the Chantry.
And even if the magisters weren't responsible for the Bligths, it would change nothing. Personally, I never argued from a viewpoint where the mages were, undoubtedly, responsible for the Blight.

I also note that the convo with Fenris takes place after the conversation with Alistair.

 
How is that significant? The Qunari culture didn't change in the space of a year nor did Fenris have contact with it for years before coming to Kirkwall.
Besides, the word of a qunari matters more than that of Fenris who learned about them second hand.

I
also note that the Arishok and the Qunari in general respect those that
tell the truth, and even the Seneschal says that underhaned behavior
(such as sneak attacks and plotting) is completely contrary to the
Qunari nature.  If the Qunari decide to attack agaion, they will do so
obviously and openly.

They are perfectly capable of trickery such as replacing the gaatlok with saar-qamek.

[*]
[*]

Slaughtering all Rivanni civilians who were qunari is still
inexcusable and lying about it is less so.  Just because their religion
MAY be a threat does not justify that sort of bloodthirsty act of mass
murder, and that is what the Chantry sanctioned:  Mass Murder.  Call it
what it was.

I never denied it was mass murder. But not only there is no evidence the Divine approved of the actions of the Rivaini Chantry, the converts were in violation of the peace treaty. It was a war, people die. Is that not what you say?

The Qunari do permit others to live without following the
Qun.  The source material we have is very clear about this.  Pity the
Chantry won't do the same.

[*]Those who refuse to convert are forced to drink saar-qamek that turns them into mindless laborers. It's no better than death.  The Chantry demanded the converts leave Andrastean lands, a fair and resonable request. The Qunari would allow no such thing as evidenced by their short occupation of Kirkwall.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 février 2013 - 01:35 .

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

@ Polaris - mass murder is NOT the Chantry modus operandi.
You are taking an isolated incident and using it as some blanket operational model.

Also, what the Delish did or didn't do is vastly open to debate - either way the version of who attacked whom differs greatly.

Actually I beg to differ.  Based on the Chantry's actions over the last thousand years, I would say that Mass Murder is the second thing the Chantry does to those that disagree with them (the first is to demand their surrender).  I would say my criticism of the Chantry is dead on.  You have the Dalish, Tevinter, and the Rivvani Qunari and the pattern is exactly the same.  "If you don't agree with us and ask forgiveness, we will kill you."

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Qunari don't execute civilians in job lots when they won't covert.  The Chantry does just that (and lies about it).  I have no love for the Qunari, but the Chantry is worse in this regard.

Those who don't convert to the Qun are given sark-kamek and turned into mindless laborers so, they basically do the same thing. Except the Chantry doesn't do purges often and simply demanded the qunari abide by the treaty their leaders had signed. Did the Arishok allow any Andrasteans who didn't want to convert out of Kirkwall? I don't think so.
And the Chantry doesn't attempt to control every aspect of your life down to the day you will be born.

The same entry that claims this ALSO says that there are as many stories that show the Qunari to be relatively human which raises the strong possibility that this is Chantry propoganda.  As for Kirkwall, that was a very unique situation and I am pretty sure that Ari-Qun would not have entirely approved of the Arishok's actions.  This is typical of DA2.....concoct a very unique situation but make it seem like it's typical.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
As for the Dalish being isolationist and unfriendly, I agree on both counts.  I also will agree that this means you have less friends and less help when you need them, yes.  Diplomatically the Dalish had a lot to learn and needed a lot less arrogance.  That STILL doesn't justify the Chantry's actions even if the Dalish did attack first (which is highly unlikely in my mind).  In fact the Chantry stayed out of it until it actually looked like Orlais was going to lose.  This isn't "saving humanity from the heathans", this is bailing out your number one meal-ticket and political pet.....and don't think the example of the Dalish was lost on any other nation in Thedas.  It wasn't.[/quote]
So, you believe the Chantry should just have allowed the elves to slaugther an untold number of human beings and burn their seat to the ground? That's ridiculous. This wasn't a matter of theological differences, this was a matter of elves killing men, women and children and attempting to destroy the Chantry.
They were saving the ballwark of human civilization from those who would destroy it. If the Divine had packed her stuff and moved to the Free Marches, she would be accused of leaving her people to die by foumites.
Damned if you, damned if you don't
[/quote]

The chantry should have stayed OUT.  It wasn't a Chantry matter.  In fact that WAS the Chantry position until it actually looked like Orlais was going to fall.  What you are describing is no different than ANY enemy army invading and sacking an enemy town.  This wasn't saving humanity.  It was saving their Orlesian puppets, nothing more.

[quote]


[quote]In fact Modern Tevinter underscores the point.  If you have a religion that the Chantry doesn't like, the Chantry will try to wipe you out, whether you are a threat or not (and no Modern Tevinter was no threat to the rest of Thedas....Tevinter had their hands full with the Qunari).[/quote]
Tevinter returned to its mage supremacist and slaving ways before the Qunari showed up. Modern Tevinter would enslave all non-mages as quickly as Ancient Tevinter if allowed.
[/quote]

I was corrected and accepted the correction of the timing already, but you clearly didn't bother to read it.  The fact is that Modern Tevinter did NOT try to convert the rest of Thedas into their way of worshipping the Maker.  They only wanted to be left alone.  It was the Orlesian Chantry that sent the exalted marches, and it perhaps is a very good think that Tevinter was not trying to export their religion given that Tevinter was able to stop all of them.  Yes the Chantry wasn't able to slaughter non-believers in Tevinter, but it sure wasn't for the lack of the "good old college try".

[quote]
[quote]
Why?  What gives you the right to declare what a soveign people should or shouldn't have done?  Would it have been better had the Dalish been more diplomatic?  Sure.[/quote]
The elves were the ones who fostered a climate of distrust and hatred amongst the Dales and human nations. If you refuse your neighbors when they are trying to be your friends, don't be surprised if they become your enemies instead.
[/quote]

That doesn't justify what the Chantry did.

[quote]
[quote]Was that enough to justify the Chantry wiping them out.

No way.[/quote]
They were done unto as they attempted to do unto Orlais.
[/quote]

What Orlais had attempted to do unto them first (as Orlais had done to umpteen other nations before...all of these called 'exalted marches btw').  If Orlais wasn't able to pay the piper, they never should have started the war.

[quote]
[quote]
The chantry openly calls magic a curse and the Mother at Redcliff will admit to a human warden mage that the chantry has been known to raise mobs against mages.  The chantry (esp when you read the actual chant of light) is extremely hateful and hypocritical towards magic.[/quote]
The Chantry calls magic a curse and a gift and it is dealing with it as it should be dealt with. With extreme caution.
Their policy is to bring mages to a tower where they are prisioners, certainly, but also well cared for. Not lynch them on the street. But, of course, the Divine can't be expected to be able to control what every single priest across an entire continent does. We can't do it nowadays and we have internet and airplanes.
[/quote]

The Chantry could moderate their stance towards magic.  For that matter the fear and hate towards magic really isn't based on any good hard evidence.  For starters we have no data that shows that abominations are better in lands with the circle system than without (and a lot of annecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise).  The Chantry needs to set the example.  Basically the Chantry preaches hate and then exclaims in shock when their followers act in a hatefuil manner.  Hypocrits.

[quote]
[quote]
The Chantry supported and aided Drakon every step of the way, though.[/quote]
Drakon and the Chantry brought peace and stability to a continent that was tearing itself apart through infighting and unsactioned magic.
[/quote]

That's the Chantry version.  From my reading it seems like Orlais and the new Chantry made an unholy alliance and decided to conquer the world.


[quote]

[quote]Not only that, but the Chantry hasn't called Exalted Marches in self defense with the sole exception of the Qunari invasion.[/quote]
The elves who would have destroyed Orlais; Tevinter who would enslave all non mages; Qunari would forcibly convert everying into their domineering ideology.
All Exalted Marches have been called to protect the human race.
[/quote]

NONE of that is self defense no matter how hard you try to claim otherwise (save the Qunari which I already admitted).


[quote]

[quote]It's worth noting that the Chantry suppoted the Orlesian occupation (which was a very harsh occupation) up to the hilt.[/quote]
Do you expect the Grand Cleric of Orlais or the Divine who have the emperor next door to do their best to anger him?
But the Chantry did not send mages or templars with the orlesian army nor did they abuse the population in any way. The Grand Cleric of Denerim did her best to protect the fereldans from Meghren's madness.

[/quote]

They sure didn't discourage Meghren or give any help to Fereldan.  There is a reason why King Maric and Gen Loghain came this close to kicking them out entirely.  There is a reason why the Chantry doesn't have the political power in Fereldan that it has in other Andrastian lands.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Well, with all due respect, I am sniffing another retcon, and even if I except that as gospel it doesn't come close to proving your point.  It doesn't come close.[/quote]
Retcon would require the games having extablished that darkspawn are born in a motionless larva form which it didn't. We have a post on a forum by the main writer and it doesn't actually contradict what is written in the book since the Children are clearly capable of moving even at their weakest.
[/quote]

I said I was sniffing another retcon.  Personal opinion.  Even if it's not it still doesn't prove what you want it to.

[quote]
[quote]
Oh please.  We know that Broodmothers are well protected and essentially immobile.  We also know that even a weak Broodmother will take out a full company of hardened men easy.  We also know the blights are NOT fought below the earth...the Dwarves take advantage of the respite to regroup and recoup (and we are even told as much).  That means the number of Broodmother casualties in each blight has to be neglible.[/quote]
Our Warden alone kills four of them, Kardol speaks of fighting the darkspawn to their lairs which implies that it is something that the Legion of the Dead do and it makes sense to take advantage of Blights to do this.
[/quote]

Kardol also says quite bluntly that "your blight is his everyday" and that the Legion normally takes the opportunity to rest and recoup during blights (as in recover old defensive positions and the like).  As for the Warden, let's be honest, the Warden is a freak of nature that is able to do things that are unheard of by pretty much anyone else.  In fact in DAA in particular, this fact is thrown into your face repeatedly:  The Hero of Fereldan is simply nearly like a legendary demi-god in ability (be it magic or combat) and even from level one, your Warden is a strong cut above the norm (and the game points this out).

Even then and even with three companions that are nearly as awesome as the warden, the Broodmother battle in the Deeproads is one of the hardest battles in the game.  Anyone that's played that battle can see easily how a broodmother could take out a company easy....and that's IF you got to her through her spawn.


[quote]
Tell you what, if you are so sure that ten years before a large underground maze becomes infested proves so much that the Chantry is statistically wrong despite not knowing the gestation period of darkspawn, how many usually survive or how many broodmothers there were before the First Blight, I'd like to see you do the math.
[/quote]

I could and have made reasonable estimates using Fermi Numbers (first order maginitude approximations) and you can make very reasonable guesses this way based on very little information.  I won't bother to post it here because we'll get into a 20 page tiresome thread of nitpicking assumptions.  I never said the Chantry version WAS definatively a lie.  What I am saying is that if you make very reasonable approximations and assumptions based on real data, it's seems difficult for the Chantry version to be true.  When you consider the lore of the Primeaval Thaig (which is very old), it seems far more reasonable and likely that the blight/darkspawn are far older than most guess.

[quote]
[quote]
The Chantry isn't lying about the magisters going to the black city.  What the chantry may well be lying about is that this (the abuse of magic) created the blight.  If the Chantry is lying about this, then there goes the major moral underpinning for much of the Chantry's anti-magic dogma.[/quote]
As I said, there is no evidence that the Chantry is lying so much as that it could, possibily, be wrong. You're just assuming they are lying because you don't like the Chantry.
And even if the magisters weren't responsible for the Bligths, it would change nothing. Personally, I never argued from a viewpoint where the mages were, undoubtedly, responsible for the Blight.
[/quote]

That doesn't matter.  "The Mages caused the blight" is a major moral cornerstone (along with the threat of possessiion) that the Chantry uses to justify their treatment of mages.

[quote]


[quote]I also note that the convo with Fenris takes place after the conversation with Alistair.[/quote] 
How is that significant? The Qunari culture didn't change in the space of a year nor did Fenris have contact with it for years before coming to Kirkwall.
Besides, the word of a qunari matters more than that of Fenris who learned about them second hand.
[/quote]

It's significant because the qunari and other aspects of the lore underwent a lot of changes that weren't well (if at all) documented.  I appeal to recency.

[quote]
[quote]I
also note that the Arishok and the Qunari in general respect those that
tell the truth, and even the Seneschal says that underhaned behavior
(such as sneak attacks and plotting) is completely contrary to the
Qunari nature.  If the Qunari decide to attack agaion, they will do so
obviously and openly.[/quote]
They are perfectly capable of trickery such as replacing the gaatlok with saar-qamek.
[/quote]

As a lesson to demonstrate the cost of greed.  You are forgetting this part.   The thief was in the wrong by stealing the forumula.  The fact it was saar-qamek is irrelevant.  The Qunari never denied this either.

[quote]
[quote]
Slaughtering all Rivanni civilians who were qunari is still
inexcusable and lying about it is less so.  Just because their religion
MAY be a threat does not justify that sort of bloodthirsty act of mass
murder, and that is what the Chantry sanctioned:  Mass Murder.  Call it
what it was.[/quote]
I never denied it was mass murder. But not only there is no evidence the Divine approved of the actions of the Rivaini Chantry, the converts were in violation of the peace treaty. It was a war, people die. Is that not what you say?
[/quote]

Oh no you don't.  We aren't talking about the sacking of one city, or one battle where perhaps a commander got carried away.  This was a long term and planned military operation that involved the deliberate killing of as many civilians as possible.  The Divine HAD to know and the local Knight Commander and Knight Vigilant most certainly had to.  Why else lie about it?  The Chantry knows they were caught red handed doing mass slaughter.

[quote]
[quote]
The Qunari do permit others to live without following the
Qun.  The source material we have is very clear about this.  Pity the
Chantry won't do the same.
[/quote]

Those who refuse to convert are forced to drink saar-qamek that turns them into mindless laborers. It's no better than death.  The Chantry demanded the converts leave Andrastean lands, a fair and resonable request. The Qunari would allow no such thing as evidenced by their short occupation of Kirkwall.
[/quote]

Actually this "fact" is disputed.  It may be nothing more than Chantry propoganda.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
The same entry that claims this ALSO says that there are as many stories that show the Qunari to be relatively human which raises the strong possibility that this is Chantry propoganda. 

There are many good things about the Qun such as equality, certainty, community. Which doesn't change the fact that reeducation or enslavement are the only options you are given if you happen to fall in their hands.
Isabela actually experiences this in the second issue of "Those who Speak" where a Tamassran attempted reeducate her and threatened her with lobotomy should she prove less than open to their pylosophies. We also have a report by a tevinter soldier made prisioner who gives us details on the effect the saar-qamek had on the minds of his companions.

As for Kirkwall, that was a very unique situation and I am pretty sure that Ari-Qun would not have entirely approved of the Arishok's actions.  This is typical of DA2.....concoct a very unique situation but make it seem like it's typical.

The only thing unique were the circunstances that lead to the occupation, not its modus operandi.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The same entry that claims this ALSO says that there are as many stories that show the Qunari to be relatively human which raises the strong possibility that this is Chantry propoganda. 

There are many good things about the Qun such as equality, certainty, community. Which doesn't change the fact that reeducation or enslavement are the only options you are given if you happen to fall in their hands.
Isabela actually experiences this in the second issue of "Those who Speak" where a Tamassran attempted reeducate her and threatened her with lobotomy should she prove less than open to their pylosophies. We also have a report by a tevinter soldier made prisioner who gives us details on the effect the saar-qamek had on the minds of his companions.

As for Kirkwall, that was a very unique situation and I am pretty sure that Ari-Qun would not have entirely approved of the Arishok's actions.  This is typical of DA2.....concoct a very unique situation but make it seem like it's typical.

The only thing unique were the circunstances that lead to the occupation, not its modus operandi.

There are just as many stories that show the Qunari in a different light.  Also remember that Isabella was a high criminal in the eyes of the Qunari.  It's not like she was threatened just because she was Andrastian.  As for the rest, the Arishok was in an impossible situation, cut off from Par Vollen, and he had to know that when the rest of the free marches assembled, he and his men were dead.  This is NOT a typical situation.

The point is we don't KNOW what is truth about the Qunari and what is chantry propoganda.  Honestly, given the more we learn, I am more inclined to give the Qunari the benefit of the doubt.  They are actually trustworthy.  The Chantry isn't.

-Polaris