546 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
The chantry should have stayed OUT.  It wasn't a Chantry matter.  In fact that WAS the Chantry position until it actually looked like Orlais was going to fall.  What you are describing is no different than ANY enemy army invading and sacking an enemy town.  This wasn't saving humanity.  It was saving their Orlesian puppets, nothing more.

This was about preventing the depopulation of Orlais and well as the sack of their own seat. You think that the Divine should do nothing while elves burn the Grand Cathedral while pillaging Val-Royeaux?

The fact is that Modern Tevinter did NOT try to convert the rest of Thedas into their way of worshipping the Maker.  They only wanted to be left alone.  It was the Orlesian Chantry that sent the exalted marches, and it perhaps is a very good think that Tevinter was not trying to export their religion given that Tevinter was able to stop all of them.  Yes the Chantry wasn't able to slaughter non-believers in Tevinter, but it sure wasn't for the lack of the "good old college try".

No, they used their reading of the Chantry to justify slavery. That, by itself, justifies a few Exalted Marches.
Tevinter doesn't want to be left alone, Tevinter wants everything to be Tevinter. The Magisters are the enemy of Andraste and all those who would call themselves Andrastean and the war is not over until the gates of Minrathous have been breached, the Juggernauts have been brought down and the Circle of Magi cracked open so all can see the maggots and worms within.

That doesn't justify what the Chantry did.

Defend itself?

What Orlais had attempted to do unto them first (as Orlais had done to umpteen other nations before...all of these called 'exalted marches btw').  If Orlais wasn't able to pay the piper, they never should have started the war.

The modus operandi of Orlais is to conquer and occupy, replace the ruling government with one of your own.
The Dales were entirely destroyed. Makes me wonder what had the orlesians so furious. Maybe the sacking of their capital?

The Chantry could moderate their stance towards magic.  For that matter the fear and hate towards magic really isn't based on any good hard evidence.  For starters we have no data that shows that abominations are better in lands with the circle system than without (and a lot of annecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise).  The Chantry needs to set the example.  Basically the Chantry preaches hate and then exclaims in shock when their followers act in a hatefuil manner.  Hypocrits.

The Chantry preaches caution. I find their stance towards magic to be very reasonable and moderate. The qunari are the extremists.

That's the Chantry version.  From my reading it seems like Orlais and the new Chantry made an unholy alliance and decided to conquer the world.

Thedosian historians agree that after Andraste's death, the land was in great turmoil. It's true that Orlais was an expansionistic empire but that, by itself, is not a bad thing. Rome was one such as well but it also brought the conquered people law, order, technological advancements.
I am referring, of course, to Drakon himself who united the Southern lands and faced the Second Blight. Not the Emperor who invaded Ferelden, an already existing nation.

NONE of that is self defense no matter how hard you try to claim otherwise (save the Qunari which I already admitted).

How is defending one self from those who would either destroy you(Dales) or enslave you (Tevinter, Qunari) not self defense?

They sure didn't discourage Meghren or give any help to Fereldan.

They stayed OUT. Like you wanted them to. It was a matter between two andrastean nations.

 

There is a reason why King Maric and Gen Loghain came this close to kicking them out entirely.  There is a reason why the Chantry doesn't have the political power in Fereldan that it has in other Andrastian lands.

Because people often misunderstand each other motives. We know, because we can read her viewpoint, that despite opposing the rebellion, the Grand Cleric of Denerim was actually trying to help the ferelden population by buying them peace. But, obviously, Loghain would not see it in such an objective light.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
There are just as many stories that show the Qunari in a different light.  Also remember that Isabella was a high criminal in the eyes of the Qunari.  It's not like she was threatened just because she was Andrastian.  As for the rest, the Arishok was in an impossible situation, cut off from Par Vollen, and he had to know that when the rest of the free marches assembled, he and his men were dead.  This is NOT a typical situation.

The point is we don't KNOW what is truth about the Qunari and what is chantry propoganda.  Honestly, given the more we learn, I am more inclined to give the Qunari the benefit of the doubt.  They are actually trustworthy.  The Chantry isn't.

We KNOW exactly what is true and what isn't. We have plenty of objective information in all dragon age media regarding the qunari.
We know that the Qun is very kind to those who follow it. Which still doesn't change the fact that reeducation or lobotomy are the only options if caught by them. And that, by its turn, doesn't change the fact that the Qun has qualities such as equality, a strong sense of community.
I don't think qunari are monsters or barbarians. There are many aspects of their culture that I wish humans would emmulate.

As for the arishok, the only thing atypical in that situation were the circunstances that lead to it. Arishok cut off from Par Vollen, loses its patience and does something about. The occupation itself that is, gather the important people, keep them hostage, start to reeducate is modus operandi.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
The chantry should have stayed OUT.  It wasn't a Chantry matter.  In fact that WAS the Chantry position until it actually looked like Orlais was going to fall.  What you are describing is no different than ANY enemy army invading and sacking an enemy town.  This wasn't saving humanity.  It was saving their Orlesian puppets, nothing more.[/quote]
This was about preventing the depopulation of Orlais and well as the sack of their own seat. You think that the Divine should do nothing while elves burn the Grand Cathedral while pillaging Val-Royeaux?
[/quote]

That was entirely the fault of Orlais for starting a war they couldn't win.  Otherwise the Chantry should call an exalted march any time two nations go to war by your standards.


[quote]
[quote]
The fact is that Modern Tevinter did NOT try to convert the rest of Thedas into their way of worshipping the Maker.  They only wanted to be left alone.  It was the Orlesian Chantry that sent the exalted marches, and it perhaps is a very good think that Tevinter was not trying to export their religion given that Tevinter was able to stop all of them.  Yes the Chantry wasn't able to slaughter non-believers in Tevinter, but it sure wasn't for the lack of the "good old college try".[/quote]
No, they used their reading of the Chantry to justify slavery. That, by itself, justifies a few Exalted Marches.
Tevinter doesn't want to be left alone, Tevinter wants everything to be Tevinter. The Magisters are the enemy of Andraste and all those who would call themselves Andrastean and the war is not over until the gates of Minrathous have been breached, the Juggernauts have been brought down and the Circle of Magi cracked open so all can see the maggots and worms within.
[/quote]

Actually you are once again wrong.  It wasn't the slavery issue that caused the exalted march.  It was the appointment of male Fathers and mages at that to be in charge of the Imperial Chantry.  The Tevinter Exalted Marches had NOTHING to do with slavery.

[quote]
[quote]
That doesn't justify what the Chantry did.[/quote]
Defend itself?
[/quote]

Slaughtering those that simply disagree is not defending yourself.


[quote]
[quote]
What Orlais had attempted to do unto them first (as Orlais had done to umpteen other nations before...all of these called 'exalted marches btw').  If Orlais wasn't able to pay the piper, they never should have started the war.[/quote]
The modus operandi of Orlais is to conquer and occupy, replace the ruling government with one of your own.
The Dales were entirely destroyed. Makes me wonder what had the orlesians so furious. Maybe the sacking of their capital?
[/quote]

Maybe the Chantry should have stayed out?  Hmmm?


[quote]
[quote]
The Chantry could moderate their stance towards magic.  For that matter the fear and hate towards magic really isn't based on any good hard evidence.  For starters we have no data that shows that abominations are better in lands with the circle system than without (and a lot of annecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise).  The Chantry needs to set the example.  Basically the Chantry preaches hate and then exclaims in shock when their followers act in a hatefuil manner.  Hypocrits.[/quote]
The Chantry preaches caution. I find their stance towards magic to be very reasonable and moderate. The qunari are the extremists.
[/quote]

You would.  The Chantry clearly teaches that magic is a curse.  They encourage commoners to hate and fear magic (as the Mother in Redcliff admits!)  They go out of their way to blur the line between malificarum and apostate, and much much more.  Not only that but they lie (or at the very least fudge) the data on just how "dangerous" mages really are.  I have yet to see anyone show in any kind of hard quantitative analysis that the circle system is actually better than others at curbing abominations.  I hear a lot of "of course it is", but the annecdotal data strongly suggests otherwise.


[quote]
[quote]
That's the Chantry version.  From my reading it seems like Orlais and the new Chantry made an unholy alliance and decided to conquer the world.[/quote]
Thedosian historians agree that after Andraste's death, the land was in great turmoil. It's true that Orlais was an expansionistic empire but that, by itself, is not a bad thing. Rome was one such as well but it also brought the conquered people law, order, technological advancements.
I am referring, of course, to Drakon himself who united the Southern lands and faced the Second Blight. Not the Emperor who invaded Ferelden, an already existing nation.
[/quote]

Chantry historians agree.  Shock.

[quote]
[quote]
NONE of that is self defense no matter how hard you try to claim otherwise (save the Qunari which I already admitted).[/quote]
How is defending one self from those who would either destroy you(Dales) or enslave you (Tevinter, Qunari) not self defense?
[/quote]

Tevinter engaged in no hostile moves towards anyone else after they had the schism.  They wanted to be left alone.  It was the Orlesian Chantry that attacked first.



[quote]
[quote]
They sure didn't discourage Meghren or give any help to Fereldan.[/quote]
They stayed OUT. Like you wanted them to. It was a matter between two andrastean nations. 
[/quote]

No they didn't.  They gave support to the occupiers during sermons and otherwise provided aid and comfort to the occupying Orlesian forces.  Chantry complicity with the Orlesian occupation of Fereldan is well known.


[quote]
 [quote]There is a reason why King Maric and Gen Loghain came this close to kicking them out entirely.  There is a reason why the Chantry doesn't have the political power in Fereldan that it has in other Andrastian lands.
[/quote]
Because people often misunderstand each other motives. We know, because we can read her viewpoint, that despite opposing the rebellion, the Grand Cleric of Denerim was actually trying to help the ferelden population by buying them peace. But, obviously, Loghain would not see it in such an objective light.
[/quote]

King Maric was fair minded and he wasn't happy (to say the least) with the Chantry either.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
There are just as many stories that show the Qunari in a different light.  Also remember that Isabella was a high criminal in the eyes of the Qunari.  It's not like she was threatened just because she was Andrastian.  As for the rest, the Arishok was in an impossible situation, cut off from Par Vollen, and he had to know that when the rest of the free marches assembled, he and his men were dead.  This is NOT a typical situation.

The point is we don't KNOW what is truth about the Qunari and what is chantry propoganda.  Honestly, given the more we learn, I am more inclined to give the Qunari the benefit of the doubt.  They are actually trustworthy.  The Chantry isn't.

We KNOW exactly what is true and what isn't. We have plenty of objective information in all dragon age media regarding the qunari.
We know that the Qun is very kind to those who follow it. Which still doesn't change the fact that reeducation or lobotomy are the only options if caught by them. And that, by its turn, doesn't change the fact that the Qun has qualities such as equality, a strong sense of community.
I don't think qunari are monsters or barbarians. There are many aspects of their culture that I wish humans would emmulate.

As for the arishok, the only thing atypical in that situation were the circunstances that lead to it. Arishok cut off from Par Vollen, loses its patience and does something about. The occupation itself that is, gather the important people, keep them hostage, start to reeducate is modus operandi.

No we DON'T know much about the Qunari.  All the source material we have emphasizes this point and the same sources point out that for every horrific story about the Qunari, there is a much more humane one as well.

In short, you are trying to present Chantry propoganda as fact.  it MAY be true, but we have no way of knowing that.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Chantry historians agree.  Shock.

It must be really nice to be able to dismiss anything you don't like about Dragon Age lore because...Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Trying to force the elves to convert isn't an offer of friendship, and their neighbor was leading Exalted Marches against their other neighbors in their imperialistic inception into an empire. I'd be wary, too, if my neighbor was looking to conquer everything in sight.

First of fall, sending missionaries is not forcing the elves to convert. Accept that. It may have happened later; which has yet to be proven; but at that point the elves had already done fostered a climate of mistrust and hate between themselves and the rest of Thedas.

Sending templars into the Dales because the elves refused to be converted to the Chantry, and kicked out their missionaries, is an attempt by the Chantry to force the elves to convert. It's also what the Dalish claim started the war with Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste, as well as the same line of reasoning that the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for.

MisterJB wrote...

Sending missionaries, traders and diplomats is an offer of friendship which the elves spat upon. If you do that, don't be surprised if you turn your neighbor into an enemy.
Being wary is one thing; being hateful and intolerant is another. The elves were the latter.

Sending armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory isn't a "sign of friendship". The elves were under no obligation to trust an imperalistic empire that was seizing territory left and right since it's inception, and trying to spread it's religion to the four corners of the world.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Having the Andrastian religion preach hatred and intolerance towards 'heathens' and mages certainly played a role.

Maybe the elves should have accepted humanity's offer of friendship when they were willing. Maybe the elves should be grateful the Chantry ordered human kingdoms to give refuge to the elves after the Dales fell.

The elves were frowned upon, their participation in emancipating the slaves of Tevinter was removed by the Chantry, and the elves of the Alienages can only live lives of servitude to humanity.

MisterJB wrote...

As for mages:
"Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and
sisters. Those who reject the laws of the Maker and the words of His prophet are apostate. They shall be cast out, and given no place among us."
The Chantry's official stance is caution, not hatred. Some mothers might preache it but you can hardly control the world of thousands of priests across an entire continent.

While they preach that mages are "cursed", condemn them for the Blights, spread such intolerance among their faithful that ordinary people attempt to murder mages (which is pointed out by Wynne and Mother Hannah in the village of Redcliffe to the Amell Warden), and preach that templars have "dominion over mages by divine right".

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

This is incorrect. Drakon lead a number of Exalted Marches to acquire power for his empire in the making, and to nationalize his Cult of Andraste into an organized religion. 

When I was kid, I got involved in a brawl between two groups of kids. At the time, I called it a battle. That naive belief didn't make it so.
Likewise, any war where only the orlesian forces are involved is not an Exalted March. A proper, bonafide Exalted March requires the participation of every Andrastean nation in Thedas. 

I don't think the Chantry scholars share your notion of what a "bondafide" Exalted March is. According to the History of the Chantry, Chapter 4:

"There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tell that to Loghain.

Figured someone would eventually bring up Loghain in an attempt to make a counterpoint.

In a word, no. Loghain did prioritize the Darkspawn after Ostagar, but he wanted Ferelden to not appear weak after Cailan's death in the eyes of their neighboring nation Orlais. When the Bannorn decided politics was more important, they launched a civil war that forced Loghain to prioritize them over the Darkspawn so as to ensure he had a united front.

Fighting a war on two fronts is not easily done. Any decent general knows that. It's doubly compounded when you're facing an enemy like the Darkspawn.

Common sense.

The Chantry is a LOT better.

Hahahahahahahhahahahahaha no.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Chantry historians agree.  Shock.

It must be really nice to be able to dismiss anything you don't like about Dragon Age lore because...Chantry.

Not like certain posters who dismiss things about DA lore because of.... Elves or Mages or whatever that doesn't jive well with their arguments.

Saying Chantry historians agree on a matter isn't really wrong. They do, they will, and it'd take a few key individuals to actually write about the truth and not just what they think to be the truth -- Genitivi and Petrine. And for those two, I'm skeptical of what they write because it might just be the information they have at hand, but not necessarily the true facts.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2013 - 08:53 .

[DKJaigen]

Welcome to the trolling club MisterJB. But try to be less like this http://redwing.hutma...erouscranus.htm and more like this http://redwing.hutma...ngfumaster.htm. Its a bit boring when lobsel and TEWR completely crushes your arguments again and again.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

I don't disagree with you. However, it's entirely possible, likely really, that the Rivaini Chantry attempted to appeal to the Triumvirate and didn't get results which prompted the massacre.

If they had done that, I would expect them to have returned the Tome of Koslun at that time so as to better the chances of the Qunari listening.

The qunari show us the same courtesy. Perhaps not slaugther but certainly reeducation or enslavement if that fails.

Qamek seems to be lyrium, whose affects have a proven effect on memory -- Templars and Fenris being two examples, though the latter could easily be due to the traumatic nature of the ritual.

So maybe one could define it as enslavement. But it's not like the Qunari apply it wholesale to conquered people. It's only to people that are really resistant. For reference on the nature of the Qunari when trying to convert:

The ox-men do not kill their prisoners. The Qun abhors waste, and a person is a valuable commodity. Instead of death, we found ourselves housed in a labor camp run by the Ben-Hassrath. They called us "kabethari"—simple ones—and this was where we were to be inducted into the Qun.The accommodations were no match for the State Inn inMinrathous, but we never expected them to be.

Our dormitory was kept spotless, and we were fed three daily meals of a bland but nourishing porridge. Water and a strong unsweetened tea were always available as well.Both males and females are chosen to join the Ben-Hassrath, which struck me as peculiar.

I'd always heard that theQunari drew distinctions between what counted as men's work and women's work. Thinking on it, however, perhaps it makes sense. The Ben-Hassrath are responsible for "re-education" and the assimilation of conqured peoples. Both women and men, in my experience, relate better to those of their own sex. It is thus prudent to choose women for the re-education of women and children, and men for that of men.

To their credit, the Ben-Hassrath were never cruel. They were always reasonable, if firm. I played along, repeating what they taught, but holding in my heart the truths by which I was raised.Others were not so clever. Some of my platoon resisted the indoctrination, refusing even to pretend.

The Ben-Hassrath see rebellion and discontent as an illness that can be cured, and they took these men to the "viddathlok," temples dedicated to healing and recovery. I do not know what happened there. The men who returned were changed in profound ways.Others, we never saw again. I can only assume the "cure" did not take.—

From the memoirs of an Imperial soldier captured at sea

Then there are other stories about people who are thankful the Qun showed them how to properly live instead of continuing to have the Maker guide them.

They do not act like tyrants when trying to convert people to the Qun at first. That people still willingly convert to their religion, for whatever reason, and how gentle, caring, and honorable Sten is shows that the Qunari are not as vile as the Chantry paints them as -- something even Alistair notes.

Anaan Esaam Qun.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2013 - 09:05 .

[BlueMagitek]

^ You say that, and then I see a mage with bounded lips and blinded eyes. :/

But please, enjoy the re-education camps if you want? Your preference I guess.

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ You say that, and then I see a mage with bounded lips and blinded eyes. :/

But please, enjoy the re-education camps if you want? Your preference I guess.

I will agree that the Qunari attitude towards mages and magic is even more vile than the Chantry's but it reflects an interesting contradition since that seems to be about the only place where they are openly illogical about it.  Even then the Qunari attitude towards Sarabaas seems to be a reflection of great fear, and open sympathy....and unlike the Chantry, Sarabaas has a place within the Qun and this struggle for control is to be honored.

My personal theory is that the Kossith as a race suffered a great deal at the hands of magic in their distant past possibly to the point where the veil was completely sundered (like Kirkwall but worse) and the attitude became ingrained.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

Kossith? Oh good, you're one of *them*. And it doesn't even need to be that. The explanation is very good as it is. To a Qunari, having an outside force that they really can't fight against reliably kind of screws over the entire Qun thing they have going on. No need to invent fiction for it. '

Most of the reaction to Mages is fear in Andrastian society as well. However, in the hands of Templar outside of Kirkwall, they at least aren't automatically blinded, bound and indoctrinated as the Sarebaas are. The Qunari are brutal monsters and I can only hope that they and Tevinter bleed themselves out.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ You say that, and then I see a mage with bounded lips and blinded eyes. :/

Only bound lips. They can still see.

At any rate, I've never once condoned what they do to the Mages. Any time I end a Qunari post with Anaan Esaam Qun, it's tongue in cheek.

I find it to be abhorrent, but rationalize it as stemming from a warped sense of caring for the Mage and trying to make the Mage as safe as possible. They're shown to actually honor the Saarebas for embodying the very tenets, ideals, and challenges of Qunari society.

And though the name translates to "dangerous thing", which would lead people to believe they consider them objects, that's not necessarily true. They use "bas" for... pretty much a lot of things, but it doesn't really mean they don't value the life of the person or the person in general.

The Qunari are flawed in their views on magic, that much I won't deny. But they do not hate the Mages themselves. They hate magic and the suffering they believe magic inevitably causes. They want society to be perfect, where people are at peace and happy amongst each other.

But please, enjoy the re-education camps if you want? Your preference I guess.

Well, I just try to defend the Qunari society, mostly from trying to see things from their point of view.

The explanation is very good as it is. To a Qunari, having an outside force that they really can't fight against reliably kind of screws over the entire Qun thing they have going on. No need to invent fiction for it.

His idea isn't too far off the mark. A lot of the information on why they fear magic so involves suffering, and if questioned about why the Qunari hate magic so much Sten will retort about all the atrocities Tevinter has and still is doing to them.

It's not out of the realm of possibility that magic had something to do with why they fled their original homeland.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Chantry historians agree.  Shock.

It must be really nice to be able to dismiss anything you don't like about Dragon Age lore because...Chantry.

There's a difference in dismissing the lore and using several bits of the lore, put together, and seeing which sources are more credible than others. Compare and contrast the various sources and codex entries.

For example, the codex on the apostates which talks about how the Chantry goes out of its way to blur the line between an apostate and a maleficar was written by a First Enchanter. But when I take that single codex entry and compare it to various other sources, such as Morrigan talking about how the templars fear every apostate may become maleficarum because they haven't been trained by chantry approved methods, or when Wynne outright calls Morrigan a maleficar when trying to scold the Warden for having a romance with Morrigan (even if Morrigan is simply a shapeshifter, which isn't what a maleficar actually is, but she's called that because it isn't a chantry approved study of magic) or even Alistair telling Duncan tha he thinks Morrigan and Flemeth are apostates hiding from the chantry as if it's the worst thing in the world...and that one codex entry has a lot more credibility.

I find from my experience that many of the chantry written lore revolves around the Chant of Light and their interpretation of it. It sounds well and good taken by itself, but when put side-by-side already existing lore and other codex entries, then we can see how much water it holds.

I feel most codex entries should be taken with a grain of salt, but in the case of the Chantry and its codex entries, I believe they have the most to hide, and the most to gain by supporting Orlais. I feel that, based on the history of their exalted marches, that they can't honestly talk about how exalted marches are only used to defend humanity, when Drakon used them to build Orlais from the ground up, when the Divine wanted to use one on peacefully protesting mages in her own cathedral, or what happened to the Rivaini Qunari who were living peacefully, and ended up slaughtered in such numbers that the veil was sundered....and then they lied about it. I feel that the templar order may say they stand for something, but time and again the order's leadership upper echelons and the Seekers, whose job is to investigate templars only, have become so religiously fanatical in their duty and the belief they have authority over mages by divine right, that they can no longer be trusted to handle mages at all.

I don't trust mages to police themselves exclusively, but a few spirit mages and a few warriors trained with templar abilities working together could be the ultimate mage-police force.

Don't worry, there's no shame in admitting when you're wrong about the organization you feel is superior, even if that organizations fears an entire demographic to the extent that they are willing to commit genocide, and justify it with vague reasons.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If they had done that, I would expect them to have returned the Tome of Koslun at that time so as to better the chances of the Qunari listening.

I expect the Tome is much too valuable to waste it on some settlements on North Rivain.
"Par Vollen: The Occupied North" tells us that the rulers of Rivain attempted to barter a peace. I'm guessing it didn't work.

Qamek seems to be lyrium, whose affects have a proven effect on memory -- Templars and Fenris being two examples, though the latter could easily be due to the traumatic nature of the ritual.

So maybe one could define it as enslavement. But it's not like the Qunari apply it wholesale to conquered people. It's only to people that are really resistant. For reference on the nature of the Qunari when trying to convert:

Then there are other stories about people who are thankful the Qun showed them how to properly live instead of continuing to have the Maker guide them.

They do not act like tyrants when trying to convert people to the Qun at first. That people still willingly convert to their religion, for whatever reason, and how gentle, caring, and honorable Sten is shows that the Qunari are not as vile as the Chantry paints them as -- something even Alistair notes.

Anaan Esaam Qun.

Good and evil are not mutually exclusive. All cultures in the world have their positive and negative things about them. The Qun is no different.
As I've readily admtited in the past, there are characteristics of the qunari culture that I wish humans would emulated such as equality, duty towards the community, etc. Thanks to these qualities, I have no doubt there are many who would feel happy joining the Qun.
However, the existence of these qualities does not imply that the negative things we hear about qunari culture are propaganda. Because, once again, good and evil are not mutually exclusive.
"Par Volllen: The Occupied North" tells us of families being dismantled. And we know for a fact that this is true. Sten tells us how qunari don't have families, they have breeding programs which are planned down to the smallest detail including day of birth and the children are raised by the priesthood.
We are told qunari have reeducation camps and those who refuse to be "enligthened" become mindless laborers. And again, we can confirm this, we have "Those Who Speak" where thsi fate is what awaits Isabela, we have the reports of the Imperial soldier and we see it happening in Kirkwall when the Arishok took control of the nobles.

Now on the matter of Rivain.
The converts were in clear violation of the Llomerryn Accord. The Rivaini Chantry, at the very least, gave the converts three options: return to Andrasteanism, leave mainland Thedas as stipulated or die.
The Qunari give two options: convert to the Qun or become a mindless laborer.

And once again, because I feel I can't emphasize this enough, good and bad are not mutually exclusive. The bad tells are just as likely to be real as the good ones.

[TEWR]

"Par Vollen: The Occupied North" tells us that the rulers of Rivain attempted to barter a peace. I'm guessing it didn't work.

That would be the Llomerryn Accords.

[shepard1038]

We know the Qunari do give qamek to people that refused to convert, because Fenris says so to Isabela in Act 3 and he spend time with Qunari and he has knowledge of the Qun. So no it isn't chantry propaganda.

As for bas it means "thing". So the Qunari see outsiders and other races as inferior.

[TEWR]

No, they don't. I never denied bas means thing, but they do not see other races as inferior. They see them as... not so much unenlightened but lost would probably be the better word. And they use bas for a lot of things.

It's not so much derogatory as simply descriptive to them, something DG said about how the Qunari define their words in the past. They apply a lot of definitions to one single word. For instance, the Arishok calls Hawke Basalit-an, which means "outsider worthy of respect".

In the root of that word is "Bas". If it was truly insulting, then it wouldn't be added to a term of respect.

If they saw them as inferior, Sten wouldn't have batted an eyelash when he killed the farmers in a panicked state. But that one action is something he never forgives himself for, due to a multitude of reasons:

1) They were people
2) They were alive.
3) They helped him.
4) His backstory, where he would investigate the disappearances of farmers or whoever due to Tal-Vashoth attacks.
5) They could've been brought to the Qun, eventually.

Really, for it to be insulting it has to be said in an insulting manner. An elf saying "Shemlen" to a human in such a matter is insulting. But if a cordial elf says "Ah, one of the shemlen. Aneth ara" then it's not insulting. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 février 2013 - 09:17 .

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

We know the Qunari do give qamek to people that refused to convert, because Fenris says so to Isabela in Act 3 and he spend time with Qunari and he has knowledge of the Qun. So no it isn't chantry propaganda.

As for bas it means "thing". So the Qunari see outsiders and other races as inferior.

Um, at best we can conclude that the Qunari may give qamek to those that stubbornly resist, but we already have first hand accounts that they do not do this to everyone that refuses to convert, only (perhaps) to those that openly rebel.  As for Fenris, Fenris is no fan of the Qunari even if he is familiar with them.  He spent time with the Fog Warriors.  Those aren't Qunari.  They are in fact rebels against the Qunari.

I am not saying Fenris is lying, but I wouldn't say his information is terribly reliable.  It may be true.  Indeed given that Isabella is a proven high criminal and thief, in her case it may very well be true, but it doesn't prove the general case.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Really, for it to be insulting it has to be said in an insulting manner. An elf saying "Shemlen" to a human in such a matter is insulting. But if a cordial elf says "Ah, one of the shemlen. Aneth ara" then it's not insulting. 

No, for it be to insulting has simply to be used. Shemlen is insulting because it means "quick children" which implies humans are intellectually and culturally inferior to elves. Bas, likewise, means thing which is just as insulting.
If someone does not mean to use it in an offensive manner, then it's simply a case of benign ignorance which doesn't change the fact that the term itself is derrogatory.

[shepard1038]

Yes, they do. They see other races as inferior and call them kabethari which means simple ones who are to be conquered and "enlightened".

Basalit-an actually means "honorable thing" who are worthy rivals and can be negotiated with but it is still a bas(thing).

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

Yes, they do. They see other races as inferior and call them kabethari which means simple ones who are to be conquered and "enlightened".

Basalit-an actually means "honorable thing" who are worthy rivals and can be negotiated with but it is still a bas(thing).

Seeing other races as 'inferior' does NOT mean they view them as objects with no value.  Sten clearly valued the lives of the farmers he killed in his rage.  The Arishok clearly values the lives of the people of Kirkwall (in his own way).  The Qun see value in all life.  You are reading way too much into the literal translation of "bas" which honestly should probably be better translated as "not us".

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

No, for it be to insulting has simply to be used. Shemlen is insulting because it means "quick children" which implies humans are intellectually and culturally inferior to elves.

No, it just means that humans live the lives of mayflies in the eyes of the Elves. It means "quick children".  They die within 100 years.

Elves seem to be living well past that these days if Master Ilen's account of how his father fought the Clayne tribes after the Dales fell is any indication, and in the ancient days never died unless they were sleeping in Uthenara for a long time without nourishment.

Quick children has no real connotation to intellect or culture. It has to do with age, more then anything.

Now, all that said yes the ancient Elves viewed them as culturally and intellectually inferior. But one, that had nothing to do with the term shemlen as the word refers to age.

Two, that belief they held was because the humans were, at that time, warring tribes prone to violence over discourse -- especially when the Elves initially greeted said humans. 

It had nothing to do with the word shemlen. It had to do with the mentality the Humans initially displayed.

Now, you could argue that some Elves conflate the true meaning with the initial perception of Humans these days.

Basalit-an actually means "honorable thing" who are worthy rivals and can be negotiated with but it is still a bas(thing).

No, it doesn't. Tallis, a Qunari, says "You're basalit-an, remember? Outsider, worthy of respect."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 février 2013 - 09:20 .

[Insaner Robot]

I'm just going to quote verbatim a couple of David Gaider's posts from a couple of years ago and see how this goes. So these aren't my words and may or may not reflect my own views.

David Gaider wrote...

I see some wishful thinking at work, here.

The best that a bas can hope for amongst the Qunari is to be considered basalit-an-- an "honorable thing". This is a worthy foe, and one that can be negotiated with to an extent. But they are still bas, something the Qunari would consider unfortunate, and ultimately such a being would benefit from the Qun's wisdom.

The Qunari don't see a problem with treating any mage as they do, because they don't think it's bad. A mage has their place just as anyone does. So a human mage of any stripe that converted to the Qun would take their place as a saarebas. If they weren't willing to do that, then they're not really converting, are they? They would be professing to believe without actually understanding.

Now, this is with the understanding that the individual Qunari might come to understand differently than the group-- but one cannot account for the effect of the individual. I'm talking about the philosophy of the Qunari as a whole and how it would apply. If one prefers to believe that Sten would be willing or able to convince, say, the Arishok to look on a bas as something to be given special consideration-- well that's hypothetical but you're free to think so.

David Gaider wrote...

I think there's a bit of a bias against organized religion in these parts (bad organized religion! bad!) which leads some to look on anything the Chantry does with suspicion. No doubt it doesn't help that the Chantry is a big organization with political power, and thus given to corruption much like in our own Middle Ages. The fact that it's mostly benevolent in its nature and sees what it does as necessary if unfortunate is compared to the fact that they are taking freedom away from those poor mages-- and anything that deprives freedom is also automatically bad (we're a comfy, democratic lot here on the internet, I suppose).

The Qunari, meanwhile, are a friendly bunch. Like Sten. And they kick ass better than a bunch of priests, so who wouldn't want to join that (realities of the Qun notwithstanding)?

Edit:
These were linked to from the Qunari page on the wiki.

Modifié par Insaner Robot, 19 février 2013 - 09:35 .