546 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
No, it just means that humans live the lives of mayflies in the eyes of the Elves. It means "quick children".  They die within 100 years.

Elves seem to be living well past that these days if Master Ilen's account of how his father fought the Clayne tribes after the Dales fell is any indication, and in the ancient days never died unless they were sleeping in Uthenara for a long time without nourishment.

Quick children has no real connotation to intellect or culture. It has to do with age, more then anything.

Now, all that said yes the ancient Elves viewed them as culturally and intellectually inferior. But one, that had nothing to do with the term shemlen as the word refers to age.

Two, that belief they held was because the humans were, at that time, warring tribes prone to violence over discourse -- especially when the Elves initially greeted said humans. 

It had nothing to do with the word shemlen. It had to do with the mentality the Humans initially displayed.

Now, you could argue that some Elves conflate the true meaning with the initial perception of Humans these days.

Children have differences whem compared to adults. Their intellect and understanding of their culture is shaped by those who came before them and teach them. Some children are exceptions, of course, but most are inferior to adults, It has to do with age, yes, but shemlen also means to say humans are culturally and intellectually inferior to elves.
If the ancient humans were primitive and the ancient elves immortal, that has long changed and the term is nothing more than a racial slur in the Dragon Age.

[IanPolaris]

Well when humans and elves first encountered each other, humans were culturally inferior to the elves and given the vastly shorter (at the time) human lifespan, most humans probably had less knowledge as well. Thus "Shemlen" (Quick Children) seems a very appropriate name.

Of course those that say 'knife ear' shouldn't be offended by 'shemlen'.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

David Gaider wrote...

I think there's a bit of a bias against organized religion in these parts (bad organized religion! bad!) which leads some to look on anything the Chantry does with suspicion. No doubt it doesn't help that the Chantry is a big organization with political power, and thus given to corruption much like in our own Middle Ages. The fact that it's mostly benevolent in its nature and sees what it does as necessary if unfortunate is compared to the fact that they are taking freedom away from those poor mages-- and anything that deprives freedom is also automatically bad (we're a comfy, democratic lot here on the internet, I suppose).

The Qunari, meanwhile, are a friendly bunch. Like Sten. And they kick ass better than a bunch of priests, so who wouldn't want to join that (realities of the Qun notwithstanding)?

Aaaaand...saved.

[TEWR]

These were linked to from the Qunari page on the wiki.

I see. I suppose this all comes down to what we want to take as being more canon, a forum post by DG from years ago or how a Qunari in-game defines a word with bas at its core, which could then apply to the word in general.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 février 2013 - 09:43 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I think there's a bit of a bias against organized religion in these parts (bad organized religion! bad!) which leads some to look on anything the Chantry does with suspicion. No doubt it doesn't help that the Chantry is a big organization with political power, and thus given to corruption much like in our own Middle Ages. The fact that it's mostly benevolent in its nature and sees what it does as necessary if unfortunate is compared to the fact that they are taking freedom away from those poor mages-- and anything that deprives freedom is also automatically bad (we're a comfy, democratic lot here on the internet, I suppose).

The Qunari, meanwhile, are a friendly bunch. Like Sten. And they kick ass better than a bunch of priests, so who wouldn't want to join that (realities of the Qun notwithstanding)?

Aaaaand...saved.

I don't see how.  I never denied that 'bas' techincally meant 'thing", but then again in Chinese, "Foreigner" meant "Devil" and in traditional Japanese Culture, a "Gaijin" was considered to be beneath an eta who was a non-person.

That is why in the context of the game, the better effective translation is the one, Tallis, uses:  "Outsider"

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I note that DG from that post a couple of years ago just couldn't resist at taking a shot at some of his critics regarding DA2.  I am not convinced that he, to this day, realized how...shoddy....the writing is in DA2 in many places...but that is the topic for another thread.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 février 2013 - 09:48 .

[Insaner Robot]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

These were linked to from the Qunari page on the wiki.

I see. I suppose this all comes down to what we want to take as being more canon, a forum post by DG from years ago or how a Qunari in-game defines a word with bas at its core, which could then apply to the word in general.

It may be a case of the literal translation being different to the meaning.

[IanPolaris]

Insaner Robot wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

These were linked to from the Qunari page on the wiki.

I see. I suppose this all comes down to what we want to take as being more canon, a forum post by DG from years ago or how a Qunari in-game defines a word with bas at its core, which could then apply to the word in general.

It may be a case of the literal translation being different to the meaning.

I agree, and it was (apparently badly) what I was trying to say.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Sending templars into the Dales because the elves refused to be converted to the Chantry, and kicked out their missionaries, is an attempt by the Chantry to force the elves to convert. It's also what the Dalish claim started the war with Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste, as well as the same line of reasoning that the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for.

Sending armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory isn't a "sign of friendship". The elves were under no obligation to trust an imperalistic empire that was seizing territory left and right since it's inception, and trying to spread it's religion to the four corners of the world.

Ok, I'm going to go slow. Follow my logic here.

During the three centuries that the Dales existed, the human nations attempted to send traders, diplomats and missionaries to the Dales in an attempt to co-exist. These are not hostile acts. They may have sent templars at some point but that is irrelevant to this issue so refrain from repeating that for now.

All of these peaceoffering were refused by the elves. Now, as a sovereign people, they certainly are in their rights to do that. However, in doing so and also refusing to help humanity during the Second Blight, they created the climate of mistrust and hatred that lead to the consequent war.
Which was how this whole thing started. You claimed that the Chantry was responsible for creating that climate but if we analyze the events leading up to the war, we can see that the elves did more than their share to raise tensions.
It's entirely possible that Orlais or the Chantry opened hostilities but that is not the point here.

The elves were frowned upon, their participation in emancipating the slaves of Tevinter was removed by the Chantry, and the elves of the Alienages can only live lives of servitude to humanity.

They lost a war. It’s what happens.

While they preach that mages are "cursed",

"Magic is a gift and a curse." Those are some of the very first words of the Magi origin. And it's true too.
Altough, honestly, magic is more of a curse for the normal people than the mages.

condemn them for the Blights,

There is a good chance magic is to blame. You would have mankind forget the lessons the darkspawn teach?

spread such intolerance among their faithful that ordinary people attempt to murder mages (which is pointed out by Wynne and Mother Hannah in the village of Redcliffe to the Amell Warden),

First of all, that's not the Chantry, those are singular priests. If the Chantry wanted mages dead, they would just kill them. They want magic contained, which is a very reasonable precaution.
It's unrealistic to expect the Divine to have control over what thousands of priests across an entire continent are preaching.
Second, people don't need the Chantry to fear and hate those who can burn them and their families alive with a single thought. They just need common sense.
Normal people are always going to fear magic.

and preach that templars have "dominion over mages by divine right".

Hanging on to a single phrase uttered by a man who saw his companions tortured and murdered by mages for dear life, aren't we?

I don't think the Chantry scholars share your notion of what a "bondafide" Exalted March is. According to the History of the Chantry, Chapter 4:

I disagree with Brother's Genitivi assessment of what constitutes an Exalted March and agree with Emperor Drakon's actions.

[dragonflight288]

During the three centuries that the Dales existed, the human nations attempted to send traders, diplomats and missionaries to the Dales in an attempt to co-exist. These are not hostile acts. They may have sent templars at some point but that is irrelevant to this issue so refrain from repeating that for now.

You're right. They aren't hostile acts. And it's true the Dalish entry only talks about the missionaries and the templars, but they wouldn't have a reason to mention the others, as it might take away "I'm a victim" mentality...which the Dalish have in spades when it comes to their history.

All of these peaceoffering were refused by the elves. Now, as a sovereign people, they certainly are in their rights to do that. However, in doing so and also refusing to help humanity during the Second Blight, they created the climate of mistrust and hatred that lead to the consequent war.
Which was how this whole thing started. You claimed that the Chantry was responsible for creating that climate but if we analyze the events leading up to the war, we can see that the elves did more than their share to raise tensions.
It's entirely possible that Orlais or the Chantry opened hostilities but that is not the point here.

We don't know if the land couldn't be saved, or if the Dalish looked at Orlais helping other countries with their blights (like Nevarra) but then never leaving once the Blight was defeated, taking to occupying said country and simply didn't want to get involved. As I don't have enough information and I can't remember the codex entries regarding this, I have no opinion on that situation one way or the other. You make a point that the Chantry didn't create the atmosphere of mistrust, and I agree. The subjugation of elves and hatred of them likely stems from the very long and complicated history. And for 1000 years before Andraste, all elves were slaves. It was quite likely cultural.

Still doesn't make it right. But the Orlesians had the most to gain by starting the war with the Dales than the Dalish did. The most likely scenario was that the Orlesians started the war because they wanted the fertile land of the Dales and the Dales wanted to be left alone. But then the Orlesians bit off more than they could chew and the Dalish started winning. When the Chantry saw their bed-mate was in danger, they called an exalted march and forced the elves to convert or die. Many elves, having lost the war thanks to the Chantry, chose not to submit and roam without a home.

And considering that City Elves who get homes outside of alienages often lose them to arson and vandalism from racist humans who hate seeing elves rise up to any measure of equality (or simply don't like seeing elves elevate themselves beyond servants,) I think the Dalish had more than enough reasons to keep the orlesians out.

[LobselVith8]

shepard1038 wrote...

Yeah the Dales were so friendly. Tell that to the countless of people in Montsimmard the darkspawn killed while the elven army watched nearby or the thousands of innocent civilians they killed and stole their belongings in Orlais.

While Drakon was conquering his neighbors in Exalted Marches to create a unified empire that would be solely devoted to the will of the Maker. If the humans didn't request aid from the elves, and the elves knew the humans from the Orlesian Empire were conquering their neighbors and converting them by force, why are you surprised the elves (who followed the worship of the Creators) would be hesitant in helping an imperialistic empire that threatened their kingdom, and their way of life?

shepard1038 wrote...

Or the Qunari who took children from their families to be raised as Qunari and dismantled families. While adults are sent into labor camps for re-education and those that refused, the Qunari used a sustance called qamek that turned them into mindless laborers then forced into servitude or sent to mines. Many will perish from starvation or exhaution and others would be killed. 

While Circle mages are forced to live in servitude to the Chantry, and can be killed or lose their humanity to the Rite of Tranquility without any say in the matter. Some would risk death, rather than remain under the oppression of the Chantry and their templars:

"Adain of Starkhaven escaped from the Circle of the Magi in the winter of 8:76 Blessed, the coldest winter that the Free Marches had seen in decades. He decided that it was better to die a free man than remain a servant to the Chantry and broke out of the Circle's stronghold, fleeing into an unforgiving blizzard. The templars gave chase, but there was little they could do in the harsh winds and bitter cold."

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Really, for it to be insulting it has to be said in an insulting manner. An elf saying "Shemlen" to a human in such a matter is insulting. But if a cordial elf says "Ah, one of the shemlen. Aneth ara" then it's not insulting.

No, for it be to insulting has simply to be used. Shemlen is insulting because it means "quick children" which implies humans are intellectually and culturally inferior to elves. Bas, likewise, means thing which is just as insulting.
If someone does not mean to use it in an offensive manner, then it's simply a case of benign ignorance which doesn't change the fact that the term itself is derrogatory. 

Your line of thought makes absolutely no sense. The lore from the People about their ancestors notes that the ancient elves were immortal (whether you believe it or not), and that their way of life and their views were different as a consequence of their immortality. As we know from the Arlathan codex:

"They felt no need to rush when life was endless. They worshiped their gods for months at a time. Decisions came after decades of debate, and an introduction could last for years. From time to time, our ancestors would drift into centuries-long slumber, but this was not death, for we know they wandered the Fade in dreams."

When humans live for roughly a century (or less) and live quickly paced lives, while the ancient elves could spend a year making an introduction or decades having a debate, it makes sense that the elves would see humans as shelmen, or "quicklings".

Furthermore, the elves noted that the humans who immigrated to Par Vollen (from the north) were "brash and warlike, quick to anger and quicker to fight, with no patience for the unhurried pace of elven diplomacy".

MisterJB wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I think there's a bit of a bias against organized religion in these parts (bad organized religion! bad!) which leads some to look on anything the Chantry does with suspicion. No doubt it doesn't help that the Chantry is a big organization with political power, and thus given to corruption much like in our own Middle Ages. The fact that it's mostly benevolent in its nature and sees what it does as necessary if unfortunate is compared to the fact that they are taking freedom away from those poor mages-- and anything that deprives freedom is also automatically bad (we're a comfy, democratic lot here on the internet, I suppose).

The Qunari, meanwhile, are a friendly bunch. Like Sten. And they kick ass better than a bunch of priests, so who wouldn't want to join that (realities of the Qun notwithstanding)?  

Aaaaand...saved. 

You provided a post that is factually inaccurate and easily disproven by reality. Congratulations?

People have provided plenty of reasons why they dislike the Chantry of Andraste over the years. I suppose it's much easier to vilify the people who condemn the Chantry, rather than address their points. People despise the Chantry for many reasons, including the treatment of the elves, the invasion of the Dales because the elves refused to convert to the Chantry (leading to an invasion by the templars who forcibly convert the elves to the Chantry of Andraste), the subjugation of the mages in Chantry controlled Circles, the vilification of other people who follow other religions as "heathens" - there are a multitude of reasons why people condemn the Chantry for what it is, and for the conduct of it's members. To say that people "look down" on the Chantry simply because it's an "organized religion" is a boldfaced lie that has no merit in any discussion.

Furthermore, people look upon what the Chantry does "with suspicion" because they have used religion to control all the mages in Andrastian kingdoms, coerced the elves to convert to their religion (while hunting down the elves who refused to live under human rule), and their Chantry led forces have murdered entire populations because the people didn't worship the Maker (with the Chantry even covering up the truth about the acts of genocide that took place). Some people even hate the Chantry for these reasons. It's easy for Gaider to say that these people simply hate the Chantry for being a religious organization - but that remark has no merit, because these people hate the Chantry for committing atrocities in the name of religion.

Also, the "poor mages" remark is another snide remark. Let's ignore the mages who are beaten, tortured, raped, made tranquil without any right to contest the charges against them, and even killed with impunity in the Chantry controlled Circles? Let's ignore how characters and in-game authors have condemned the Chantry controlled Circles as an institution of slavery? I guess it's easier to make an asinine remark than properly address the failings of the Chantry controlled Circles, and how they dehumanize mages in this toxic enviornment, along with their religious rhetoric.

[DKJaigen]

Ok, I'm going to go slow. Follow my logic here.

During the three
centuries that the Dales existed, the human nations attempted to send
traders, diplomats and missionaries to the Dales in an attempt to
co-exist. These are not hostile acts. They may have sent templars at
some point but that is irrelevant to this issue so refrain from
repeating that for now.

All of these peaceoffering were refused
by the elves. Now, as a sovereign people, they certainly are in their
rights to do that. However, in doing so and also refusing to help
humanity during the Second Blight, they created the climate of mistrust
and hatred that lead to the consequent war.
Which was how this whole
thing started. You claimed that the Chantry was responsible for
creating that climate but if we analyze the events leading up to the
war, we can see that the elves did more than their share to raise
tensions.
It's entirely possible that Orlais or the Chantry opened hostilities but that is not the point here.

Very naive as usual. This is a hostile cultural takeover. They where trying to make the Dalish into Orlesians. 
 In our own world the romans did this with great succes upon their own allies and enemies. That the dalish responded coldly to this event is understandable. Sending missionaries can be seen as an act of war. The japanese did when the portugese tried to convert japan to christianity . The portugese and priest where promply killed for such behavior.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Sending templars into the Dales because the elves refused to be converted to the Chantry, and kicked out their missionaries, is an attempt by the Chantry to force the elves to convert. It's also what the Dalish claim started the war with Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste, as well as the same line of reasoning that the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for.

Sending armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory isn't a "sign of friendship". The elves were under no obligation to trust an imperalistic empire that was seizing territory left and right since it's inception, and trying to spread it's religion to the four corners of the world.[/quote]

Ok, I'm going to go slow. Follow my logic here.

During the three centuries that the Dales existed, the human nations attempted to send traders, diplomats and missionaries to the Dales in an attempt to co-exist. These are not hostile acts. They may have sent templars at some point but that is irrelevant to this issue so refrain from repeating that for now.

All of these peaceoffering were refused by the elves. Now, as a sovereign people, they certainly are in their rights to do that. However, in doing so and also refusing to help humanity during the Second Blight, they created the climate of mistrust and hatred that lead to the consequent war.
Which was how this whole thing started. You claimed that the Chantry was responsible for creating that climate but if we analyze the events leading up to the war, we can see that the elves did more than their share to raise tensions.
It's entirely possible that Orlais or the Chantry opened hostilities but that is not the point here. [/quote]

Drakon was conquering his neighbors, forcing them to convert to his Cult of Andraste, and looking to spread his empire, so I can see why the elves would be hesitant about opening up relations with a group of people who were looking to convert and conquer everything in sight.

As for not coming to the aid of an empire that was causing them problems since Emperor Drakon I was alive - an empire run by people who likely wanted to convert and invade them (which is precisely what transpired after the fall of the Dales), I'm not surprised.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves were frowned upon, their participation in emancipating the slaves of Tevinter was removed by the Chantry, and the elves of the Alienages can only live lives of servitude to humanity.[/quote]

They lost a war. It’s what happens. [/quote]

Removing religious scripture about Shartan, forcing the elves to convert, hunting down the elves who refused to bend knee to human rule, and taking the land that was given to them because of their participation in fighting Tevinter. The elves lost a war that may have been caused by the Chantry invading the Dales with their templars, because the elves refused to convert to the human religion.

I hope the elves reclaim the Dales from the Orlesian Empire. I'd love it if Merrill's defiance of the Order of Templars inspired the People to be proactive about their plight, and reclaim their kingdom.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

While they preach that mages are "cursed",[/quote]

"Magic is a gift and a curse." Those are some of the very first words of the Magi origin. And it's true too.
Altough, honestly, magic is more of a curse for the normal people than the mages. [/quote]

From Greagoir, while Keili, Bethany, and Meredith mention that mages are "cursed" to the point where the first two are dealing with depression and self-hatred because of their religious teachings, while the latter uses it as justification for her extreme and illegal actions.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

condemn them for the Blights, [/quote]

There is a good chance magic is to blame. You would have mankind forget the lessons the darkspawn teach? [/quote]

There's no evidence to indicate what transpired. And I'm sure the lesson for the elves was that humanity caused another disaster. Would you advocate the elves locking up all humans in Circles?

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

spread such intolerance among their faithful that ordinary people attempt to murder mages (which is pointed out by Wynne and Mother Hannah in the village of Redcliffe to the Amell Warden), [/quote]

First of all, that's not the Chantry, those are singular priests. If the Chantry wanted mages dead, they would just kill them. They want magic contained, which is a very reasonable precaution.
It's unrealistic to expect the Divine to have control over what thousands of priests across an entire continent are preaching.
Second, people don't need the Chantry to fear and hate those who can burn them and their families alive with a single thought. They just need common sense.
Normal people are always going to fear magic. [/quote]

Making society so inhospitable to mages that the only safe place is the Chantry controlled Circles seems to be what the Chantry wants, since it leaves mages under their direct control. Wynne also points out the Chantry would kill all the mages if the Circles of Magi broke free from the Chantry, which is her argument for why she supports the status quo in the City of Amaranthine.

Also, there's a reason why mages are so reviled and hated in Andrastian society, and why non-Andrastian societies seem to have such a different attitude about mages and magic.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

and preach that templars have "dominion over mages by divine right". [/quote]

Hanging on to a single phrase uttered by a man who saw his companions tortured and murdered by mages for dear life, aren't we? [/quote]

Except Cullen provided this as the reason why Elthina couldn't side against the templars, and it's even noted at the Landsmeet that the templars are fulfilling a duty that the Chantry considers religious, to the point where it's an "offense against the Maker" to interfere in a templar's duties.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think the Chantry scholars share your notion of what a "bondafide" Exalted March is. According to the History of the Chantry, Chapter 4: [/quote]

I disagree with Brother's Genitivi assessment of what constitutes an Exalted March and agree with Emperor Drakon's actions. [/quote]

You disagree with Gentivi's historical account of Drakon's Exalted Marches, but agree with Drakon conquering other nations and forcing their people to submit to worship of his Cult of Andraste?

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, the "poor mages" remark is another snide remark. Let's ignore the mages who are beaten, tortured, raped, made tranquil without any right to contest the charges against them, and even killed with impunity in the Chantry controlled Circles? Let's ignore how characters and in-game authors have condemned the Chantry controlled Circles as an institution of slavery? I guess it's easier to make an asinine remark than properly address the failings of the Chantry controlled Circles, and how they dehumanize mages in this toxic enviornment, along with their religious rhetoric.

You're right, we should not ignore it. We should blow it entirely out of proportions, make it seem like abuses are common when they are in fact quite rare and even make it sound like Meredith is the standard amongst templars despite the fact most we meet or hear of; Knight Commanders included; are reasonable and fair people.
Because who cares if the Circles give acess to living conditions most in Thedas can only dream of while keeping normal people safe from mages?
Yes, let's all pity the poor mages who don't have to worry about starving, freezing, being illiterate or even work while being kept locked away in a luxurious tower where there are no chances of bandits or darkspawn killing them. They are being opressed for no reason whatsover other than their ability to sent towns on fire with a tought.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 février 2013 - 10:10 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Drakon was conquering his neighbors, forcing them to convert to his Cult of Andraste, and looking to spread his empire, so I can see why the elves would be hesitant about opening up relations with a group of people who were looking to convert and conquer everything in sight.

Alienating any and all humans in Thedas only means that the Dalaes stood alone when they needed help.
The elves created a climate of distrust and intolerance between themselves and the mundane kingdoms of Thedas and they eventually paid for it.

As for not coming to the aid of an empire that was causing them problems since Emperor Drakon I was alive - an empire run by people who likely wanted to convert and invade them (which is precisely what transpired after the fall of the Dales), I'm not surprised.

Drakon never moved a single troop into elven territory neither did his sucessors until the fall of the Dales.
But, hey, who cares if an entire town of people is massacred with the women underwenting a fate worse than death?
They're just humans, right?

Removing religious scripture about Shartan, forcing the elves to convert, hunting down the elves who refused to bend knee to human rule, and taking the land that was given to them because of their participation in fighting Tevinter. The elves lost a war that may have been caused by the Chantry invading the Dales with their templars, because the elves refused to convert to the human religion.

Such are the consequences of losing a war, regardless who started it.

I hope the elves reclaim the Dales from the Orlesian Empire. I'd love it if Merrill's defiance of the Order of Templars inspired the People to be proactive about their plight, and reclaim their kingdom.

Not sure what you're talking about. I clearly remember Merril helping the templars Annul the Kirkwall Circle.
Oh and there is nothing to reclaim. The elves lost the Dales and that land has now been in human hands more than the double of time it was in the elve's.
Taking it would be stealing.

From Greagoir, while Keili, Bethany, and Meredith mention that mages are "cursed" to the point where the first two are dealing with depression and self-hatred because of their religious teachings, while the latter uses it as justification for her extreme and illegal actions.

If more mages were like Bethany, there would be less need for templars.

There's no evidence to indicate what transpired.

We know for a fact the Magisters trespassed where they shouldn't and the timeline fits.
But, even if Corypheus and his ilk aren't to blame, it's obvious darkspawn and the taint are magical in nature.

And I'm sure the lesson for the elves was that humanity caused another disaster. Would you advocate the elves locking up all humans in Circles?

Oh, I'm sure they'd like to. Or worse, really.

Making society so inhospitable to mages that the only safe place is the Chantry controlled Circles seems to be what the Chantry wants, since it leaves mages under their direct control. Wynne also points out the Chantry would kill all the mages if the Circles of Magi broke free from the Chantry, which is her argument for why she supports the status quo in the City of Amaranthine.

You think that a society where the people fought to free itself from the tyranny of magic is just going to be rejoice over its existance in its midst? Do you think that people need a Chantry to fear and hate those who can kill them with their minds and raise their corpses as their servants?

Also, there's a reason why mages are so reviled and hated in Andrastian society, and why non-Andrastian societies seem to have such a different attitude about mages and magic.

That would be because Andrastean society is the only one where mages don't rule over mundanes.

You disagree with Gentivi's historical account of Drakon's Exalted Marches, but agree with Drakon conquering other nations and forcing their people to submit to worship of his Cult of Andraste?

I disagree with Genitivi calling them Exalted Marches and yes, I agree with Drakon's expansionism.
This because expansionis, by itself, is not a negative thing. Our own history teachs us what happens when empires fall.
Most of Southern Thedas had been living under Tevinter control for so long, that when it fell, it was chaos. Blood mages and abominations roamced the land freely because there was no institution to teach them or regulate their powers, the Inquisition hunted any and all mages, city states constantly warred with each other and meanwhile, Tevinter licked their wounds and sharpened their knives.
Drakon brought law, order, unity. He helped defeat the Second Blight so yes, I support what he did to extablish civilization in Southern Thedas.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 février 2013 - 10:57 .

[TEWR]

Alienating any and all humans in Thedas only means that the Dalaes stood alone when they needed help.

Except even if they had talked with other nations that weren't Orlais, chances are they still would've fallen when an Exalted March was called because most nations tend to join in on the Chantry's side out of fear of being branded an enemy by the Chantry.

Drakon never moved a single troop into elven territory neither did his sucessors until the fall of the Dales.

It's known that Drakon wanted to expand northwards into the Free Marches/Nevarra area but the Dales were stopping him.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 février 2013 - 10:50 .

[dragonflight288]

I disagree with Genitivi calling them Exalted Marches and yes, I agree with Drakon's expansionism.
This because expansionis, by itself, is not a negative thing. Our own history teachs us what happens when empires fall.
Most of Southern Thedas had been living under Tevinter control for so long, that when it fell, it was chaos. Blood mages and abominations roamced the land freely because there was no institution to teach them or regulate their powers, the Inquisition hunted any and all mages, city states constantly warred with each other and meanwhile, Tevinter licked their wounds and sharpened their knives.
Drakon brought law, order, unity. He helped defeat the Second Blight so yes, I support what he did to extablish civilization in Southern Thedas.

Genitivi specifically calls them exalted marches. The chantry worked closely with Drakon to spread their influence alongside Orlais. Maric and Loghain were only a hair away from kicking out the Chantry as it was considered an Orlesian organization. The chantry has a long history of supporting Orlais in almost everything. They call exalted marches, not when humanity is threatened, but when their faith is challenged or Orlais needs help.

Expansion can be a good thing like you said, but what isn't a good thing is the Chantry being in bed with Orlais to the extent that it is. The Codex entries are VERY clear that this is true.

There's no point denying this, even if you believe differently. The facts are the facts.

I feel a quote from Sherlock Holmes is appropriate here.

Sherlock: It is a mistake to theorize before gathering facts. Inevitably one begins to twist the facts to match the theory rather than twist the theory to match the facts.

I like you, and I think you're passionate about this, but I think you're a little caught up in trying to prove yourself right that you're ignoring facts and evidence that goes against you. I don't mean this as a flame, but hopefully as a way to try and encourage some good-natured debating without trolling on either side. I'm not trying to single you out, but you are pretty much, by your statement saying that the codex entry and the evidence that supports it is wrong because you want it to be wrong.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Genitivi specifically calls them exalted marches. The chantry worked closely with Drakon to spread their influence alongside Orlais. Maric and Loghain were only a hair away from kicking out the Chantry as it was considered an Orlesian organization. The chantry has a long history of supporting Orlais in almost everything. They call exalted marches, not when humanity is threatened, but when their faith is challenged or Orlais needs help.

Expansion can be a good thing like you said, but what isn't a good thing is the Chantry being in bed with Orlais to the extent that it is. The Codex entries are VERY clear that this is true.

There's no point denying this, even if you believe differently. The facts are the facts.

I feel a quote from Sherlock Holmes is appropriate here.

Sherlock: It is a mistake to theorize before gathering facts. Inevitably one begins to twist the facts to match the theory rather than twist the theory to match the facts.

I like you, and I think you're passionate about this, but I think you're a little caught up in trying to prove yourself right that you're ignoring facts and evidence that goes against you. I don't mean this as a flame, but hopefully as a way to try and encourage some good-natured debating without trolling on either side. I'm not trying to single you out, but you are pretty much, by your statement saying that the codex entry and the evidence that supports it is wrong because you want it to be wrong.

Perhaps I am. Let's analyze the facts.
First, Brother Genitivi calls Drakon's expansionism "Exalted Marchs". However, what is an Exalted March? Is is an Holy Crusade declared by the Chantry where all Andrasteans unite to defeat the enemies of the faith.
But looking at the Dragon Age timeline, we can see that most of Drakon's expansionism took place between 1180 Pre-Ages and 1192 PA. Only five years after the crowning of the very first Divine, Zazikel rises and the Second Blight begins and Emperor Drakon dies before its end.
Therefore, if we take Genitivi's words at facevalue, it would mean Drakon was undertaking Exalted Marches before there was a Chantry, before anyone beyond his army was actually Andrastean; at least not Andrastean in the sense we understand it.
Therefore, I find it unfair to appelidate Drakon's expansionism; which I actually aprove of; of Chantry-sanctioned Exalted Marches. Rather, Brother Genitivi is just being dramatic.

Which leaves us with the other Exalted Marches we know for sure the Divine approved: against the Dales, against Tevinter and against Qunari.
Dales: The elves were slaugthering men, women and children and threatening to destroy both the Chantry and humanity's greatest civilization in Souther Thedas. If they are sucessfull, what is stopping them from moving on to the Free Marches, Anderfels, Nevarra? This was clearly in self-defence.

Tevinter and Qunari are...well, Tevinter and Qunari. Neither will stop until the entirety of Thedas in in their hands.
Now, I am quite certain the Chantry would very much like to spread their influence further as well but, from their viewpoint, it was self defence in both cases


What is the next issue? The Chantry and Orlesian Empire being in bed together?
I will not attempt to deny that the Chantr will show a certain bias towards Orlais in most situations; Val-Royeaux is also the seat of the Chantry, after all. However, is this partnership worthy of the amount of disdain shown? For instance, the KC before Meredith was assassinated by the previous Viscount before Dumar because he was overcharging orlesian trading ships and the Divine Beatrix used the KC to pressure the Viscount into...well, quitting it. Admitadelly, this shows an orlesian bias.
Another frequently used example if the occupation of Ferelden. There are rumors that the Chantry intended to name the Dragon Age, the Sun Age in support of Orlais which is possible but still, only rumors.
What we do know for a fact is that the Grand Cleric of Denerim for years opposed the rebellion. However, we have acess to her POV. We know she did this in an attempt to safeguard the fereldan population from Meghren's excesses. Basically, don't struggle and he won't hurt you as much. It's not exactly convincing advice; and she eventually came to realize this and support the rebellion; but it was still made with the protection of Ferelden in mind, not of Orlais.
And...I believe that is it. There were a few mages sent; three out of hundreds that could have been sent; but not a single templar. The simple truth that Loghain wished for the Chantry to be expelled from the country doesn't prove it has done things that would merit the punishment. Loghain would have not understood or even cared to understand the fine subtletities behid the Grand Cleric of Denerim's opposition of the rebellion.
It is entirely possible I overlook some detail. But, if not, I think I cans afely say that while there is a certain orlesian bias in the actions of the Divine; they are hardly an evil empire conspiring together to conquer the world.
If I am forgetting some fact, feel free to point it out.

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 février 2013 - 03:22 .

[TEWR]

However, what is an Exalted March? Is is an Holy Crusade declared by the Chantry where all Andrasteans unite to defeat the enemies of the faith.

Andrastians -- priests, scholars, and commoners alike -- consider Andraste's war to be an Exalted March, and there wasn't a Chantry then either.

The Chantry is not a prerequisite for something to be deemed an Exalted March. And thus Drakon's conquests were what Genitivi the Chantry scholar calls them.

Another frequently used example if the occupation of Ferelden. There are rumors that the Chantry intended to name the Dragon Age, the Sun Age in support of Orlais which is possible but still, only rumors.

IIRC, the Dragon was also a symbol of Meghren and in-universe there was also the idea that it was called the Dragon Age not as a marking of an age for violence, but initially because they believed the Dragon Age would symbolize Meghren's triumph -- or something similar.

Then Dragon decides to attack Orlais and the Chantry's like "****.... maybe this is an omen."

Ah, indeed, here's the reference. It talks about both the Sun Age being symbolic of Orlesian awesomeness and the Dragon Age's possible other meaning.

EDIT: Oh, and they weren't rumors. The Divine was actually going to declare the ninth age the Sun Age. No rumors at all. The rumors apply to the Meghren-Dragon correlation.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 février 2013 - 03:40 .

[dragonflight288]

Mister JBwrote....

snip

It is entirely possible I overlook some detail. But, if not, I think I cans afely say that while there is a certain orlesian bias in the actions of the Divine; they are hardly an evil empire conspiring together to conquer the world.
If I am forgetting some fact, feel free to point it out.

Fair enough. I'll probably take some time to think on your points before addressing them. I want to make sure I've got my facts right before I mention them, but if I miss anything, feel free to point them out as well.

Then I'll play Star Wars: The Old Republic.

[Insaner Robot]

I think perhaps the case of Drakon's expansionism/unification under the cult of the maker, which became the chantry, is something akin to history being written by the victors. They probably wouldn't have been referred to as exalted marches or holy wars if the current chantry, which Genitivi is a part of, had not been established.
Also curse you dragonflight for mentioning swtor I can't play it again until the end of March when I get some time of from college and go home. My high power gaming rig is some hundreds of miles away from me as I'm not risking it to drunken students in the dorms

Modifié par Insaner Robot, 20 février 2013 - 04:21 .

[dragonflight288]

Also curse you dragonflight for mentioning swtor I
can't play it again until the end of March when I get some time of from
college and go home. My high power gaming rig is some hundreds of miles
away from me as I'm not risking it to drunken students in the dorms

  My pleasure. But yeah, I don't blame you. I'm also in college, but I commute. if I lived in a dorm, I wouldn't trust my laptop to be there.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Andrastians -- priests, scholars, and commoners alike -- consider Andraste's war to be an Exalted March, and there wasn't a Chantry then either.

The Chantry is not a prerequisite for something to be deemed an Exalted March. And thus Drakon's conquests were what Genitivi the Chantry scholar calls them.

Andrastea is a prophet and her war was sanctioned by the Maker Himself. It's not the same thing.

Oh, and they weren't rumors. The Divine was actually going to declare the ninth age the Sun Age. No rumors at all. The rumors apply to the Meghren-Dragon correlation.

Even so, while words can be powerful, they're not as powerful as an army of Circle Mages and Templars which were not used.
It's the difference between "Bias" and "conspiracy".

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 février 2013 - 02:19 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Andrastians -- priests, scholars, and commoners alike -- consider Andraste's war to be an Exalted March, and there wasn't a Chantry then either.

The Chantry is not a prerequisite for something to be deemed an Exalted March. And thus Drakon's conquests were what Genitivi the Chantry scholar calls them.

Andrastea is a prophet and her war was sanctioned by the Maker Himself. It's not the same thing.

Oh, and they weren't rumors. The Divine was actually going to declare the ninth age the Sun Age. No rumors at all. The rumors apply to the Meghren-Dragon correlation.

Even so, while words can be powerful, they're not as powerful as an army of Circle Mages and Templars which were not used.
It's the difference between "Bias" and "conspiracy".

Her being a prophet and her war being sanctioned by the maker is according to the Chantry. And he spoke only to Andraste. The Guardian says this to Leliana, and he knew Andraste personally.

Is it true? Maybe. Maybe not.

As for words being less powerful tahn an army of mages and templars....I'm sorry but you'll have to point out to me how that is relevant to the Chantry about to declare and age in honor or Orlais or rumors going around that the Divine named the Dragon Age on the possibility that she was offering support to Meghren. I just don't see how that's relevant.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, the "poor mages" remark is another snide remark. Let's ignore the mages who are beaten, tortured, raped, made tranquil without any right to contest the charges against them, and even killed with impunity in the Chantry controlled Circles? Let's ignore how characters and in-game authors have condemned the Chantry controlled Circles as an institution of slavery? I guess it's easier to make an asinine remark than properly address the failings of the Chantry controlled Circles, and how they dehumanize mages in this toxic enviornment, along with their religious rhetoric. 

You're right, we should not ignore it. We should blow it entirely out of proportions, make it seem like abuses are common when they are in fact quite rare and even make it sound like Meredith is the standard amongst templars despite the fact most we meet or hear of; Knight Commanders included; are reasonable and fair people.

Abuses transpired. The mage protagonist can say that the Circle of Ferelden was an "oppressive place", and Wynne admits that the mage protagonist can change this if he returns to the Circle in a leadership position, to the point where she reveals that this is her dream. The Circle of Starkhaven was a horrible place, and the Circle of Kirkwall is even worse than that. The Circle mages can be forbidden to have relationships (depending on the Knight-Commander), some Circles even forbid marriages, and none of the Circle mages can even raise their own children. Despite the horrible abuses that were being committed in the Circle of Kirkwall, no one stepped in to stop them - not Grand Cleric Elthina, not the Left-Hand of the Divine: Leliana, and not the Divine or any other authority in the Chantry. Innocent people were being murdered by a death squad of templars in broad daylight, and no one in the Chantry stopped this from happening.

MisterJB wrote...

Because who cares if the Circles give acess to living conditions most in Thedas can only dream of while keeping normal people safe from mages?

That must explain why every single Circle of Magi in the Andrastian kingdoms broke free from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. An institution that the historical Aldenon the Wise and even the modern pro-mage Hawke condemned as slavery.

MisterJB wrote...

Yes, let's all pity the poor mages who don't have to worry about starving, freezing, being illiterate or even work while being kept locked away in a luxurious tower where there are no chances of bandits or darkspawn killing them. They are being opressed for no reason whatsover other than their ability to sent towns on fire with a tought.

There were slaves who didn't have to worry about starving or freezing; some were even given fine clothes to wear as well. Some slaves were even taught how to read, and their chores could be quite different than the people who weren't forced into servitude. Some slaves were also safe from the perils that free people faced. However, I don't think any rational person would advocate slavery, even under those terms.