546 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Drakon was conquering his neighbors, forcing them to convert to his Cult of Andraste, and looking to spread his empire, so I can see why the elves would be hesitant about opening up relations with a group of people who were looking to convert and conquer everything in sight.[/quote]

Alienating any and all humans in Thedas only means that the Dalaes stood alone when they needed help.
The elves created a climate of distrust and intolerance between themselves and the mundane kingdoms of Thedas and they eventually paid for it. [/quote]

The elves in the nation of the Dales simply wanted to be left alone to restore their culture, and regain their immortality - neither of which was possible with human contact, especially when nearby human empire was seeking to convert the elves to the Chantry of Andraste, instead of respecting the right of the elves to worship the Creators. And the elves paid for the intolerance of the Chantry, who refused to respect the right of the elves' to worship their own gods.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for not coming to the aid of an empire that was causing them problems since Emperor Drakon I was alive - an empire run by people who likely wanted to convert and invade them (which is precisely what transpired after the fall of the Dales), I'm not surprised. [/quote]

Drakon never moved a single troop into elven territory neither did his sucessors until the fall of the Dales.
But, hey, who cares if an entire town of people is massacred with the women underwenting a fate worse than death?
They're just humans, right? [/quote]

The attack on Red Crossing could have been retaliation because the Chantry sent templars into sovereign territory, and I doubt armed and armored soldiers being sent as a response to the elves' refusal to convert to the Chantry was a benign act. I wonder how many innocent men, women, and children were slaughtered by the templars, because the Chantry refused to leave the elves alone.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Removing religious scripture about Shartan, forcing the elves to convert, hunting down the elves who refused to bend knee to human rule, and taking the land that was given to them because of their participation in fighting Tevinter. The elves lost a war that may have been caused by the Chantry invading the Dales with their templars, because the elves refused to convert to the human religion.[/quote]

Such are the consequences of losing a war, regardless who started it. [/quote]

Or another example of Orlesian imperalism.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I hope the elves reclaim the Dales from the Orlesian Empire. I'd love it if Merrill's defiance of the Order of Templars inspired the People to be proactive about their plight, and reclaim their kingdom. [/quote]

Not sure what you're talking about. I clearly remember Merril helping the templars Annul the Kirkwall Circle. [/quote]

I've never had my apostate Hawke help Meredith commit an act of genocide in murdering hundreds of men, women, and children simply for being mages. I take it your Hawke was a different kind of Champion. I had my apostate Champion and Merrill protect innocent people from a tyrannt.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Oh and there is nothing to reclaim. The elves lost the Dales and that land has now been in human hands more than the double of time it was in the elve's.
Taking it would be stealing. [/quote]

Actually, Elvhenan covered most of Thedas, so reclaiming the Dales wouldn't be theft; it would be similar to the Ferelden rebellion reclaiming their nation from the Orlesian Empire.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

From Greagoir, while Keili, Bethany, and Meredith mention that mages are "cursed" to the point where the first two are dealing with depression and self-hatred because of their religious teachings, while the latter uses it as justification for her extreme and illegal actions.[/quote]

If more mages were like Bethany, there would be less need for templars. [/quote]

You mean mages who think they are cursed because the Andrastian religion teaches them this is so?

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no evidence to indicate what transpired.[/quote]

We know for a fact the Magisters trespassed where they shouldn't and the timeline fits.
But, even if Corypheus and his ilk aren't to blame, it's obvious darkspawn and the taint are magical in nature. [/quote]

Actually, there are issues with the timeline, which is why you and Ian were having a debate on the issue. Also, you have no evidence to indicate what was the cause of the darkspawn.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And I'm sure the lesson for the elves was that humanity caused another disaster. Would you advocate the elves locking up all humans in Circles? [/quote]

Oh, I'm sure they'd like to. Or worse, really. [/quote]

Considering Lanaya, Marethari, and Merrill, you seem to be painting every Dalish with the same brush, despite how different all of them are (especially in Origins, when the developers bothered to give the different members of the clan personalities).

And you seemed to have missed the point again: under your line of reasoning, you can condemn all the humans in the same way you are currently condemning all the mages for the actions of a select few.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Making society so inhospitable to mages that the only safe place is the Chantry controlled Circles seems to be what the Chantry wants, since it leaves mages under their direct control. Wynne also points out the Chantry would kill all the mages if the Circles of Magi broke free from the Chantry, which is her argument for why she supports the status quo in the City of Amaranthine.[/quote]

You think that a society where the people fought to free itself from the tyranny of magic is just going to be rejoice over its existance in its midst? Do you think that people need a Chantry to fear and hate those who can kill them with their minds and raise their corpses as their servants? [/quote]

Considering the behavior of the Chasind, the Avvar, the Dalish, the kingdom of Rivain, and even the society of Haven: the answer to your inquiry is yes.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, there's a reason why mages are so reviled and hated in Andrastian society, and why non-Andrastian societies seem to have such a different attitude about mages and magic. [/quote]

That would be because Andrastean society is the only one where mages don't rule over mundanes. [/quote]

Mages don't rule in Haven and they don't rule in the kingdom of Rivain; the Avvar and the Chasind have shamans, but they still have mages living alongside non-mages as well; and the Dalish clans have mundanes in different positions of authority, along with the Keeper, who isn't a dictator like the Kings and Emperors of the human kingdoms are.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You disagree with Gentivi's historical account of Drakon's Exalted Marches, but agree with Drakon conquering other nations and forcing their people to submit to worship of his Cult of Andraste? [/quote]

I disagree with Genitivi calling them Exalted Marches and yes, I agree with Drakon's expansionism.
This because expansionis, by itself, is not a negative thing. Our own history teachs us what happens when empires fall. [/quote]

You disagree with the fact that the lore proves you wrong, apparently.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Most of Southern Thedas had been living under Tevinter control for so long, that when it fell, it was chaos. Blood mages and abominations roamced the land freely because there was no institution to teach them or regulate their powers, the Inquisition hunted any and all mages, city states constantly warred with each other and meanwhile, Tevinter licked their wounds and sharpened their knives.
Drakon brought law, order, unity. He helped defeat the Second Blight so yes, I support what he did to extablish civilization in Southern Thedas. [/quote]

To build an empire where he ruled, and where he forcibly converted everyone in his empire to the worship of his Cult of Andraste. I don't see the altriusim in putting everyone under his thumb.

[TEWR]

The attack on Red Crossing could have been retaliation because the Chantry sent templars into sovereign territory, and I doubt armed and armored soldiers being sent as a response to the elves' refusal to convert to the Chantry was a benign act. I wonder how many innocent men, women, and children were slaughtered by the templars, because the Chantry refused to leave the elves alone.

It should be noted that the City Elf version's codex implies that the attack on Red Crossing, if it indeed happened by the hands of the Dalish, was due to provocation.

[DKJaigen]

You think that a society where the people fought to free itself from the tyranny of magic is just going to be rejoice over its existance in its midst? Do you think that people need a Chantry to fear and hate those who can kill them with their minds and raise their corpses as their servants?

If they knew the benefits they would do so. Look at Anders he has been healing the poor in kirkwall to the point that the mundanes protected him. In a world of magic its always a good idea to have somebody nearby who has knowledge on the subject. The chantry does not advocate this policy and that will destroy them in time. Remaining ignorant of a subject because you fear something will create your own downfall at the hands of those who are not willing to remain ignorant.

Progress needs to be made . When progress is made people will die. This is a fact of live. But while your advocating the advancement of technologie your forgetting that every new invention has been used for both and evil.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The attack on Red Crossing could have been retaliation because the Chantry sent templars into sovereign territory, and I doubt armed and armored soldiers being sent as a response to the elves' refusal to convert to the Chantry was a benign act. I wonder how many innocent men, women, and children were slaughtered by the templars, because the Chantry refused to leave the elves alone.

It should be noted that the City Elf version's codex implies that the attack on Red Crossing, if it indeed happened by the hands of the Dalish, was due to provocation.

Can you be a bit more specific?  dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Dales only seems to have a Dalish / Not Dalish version.

In which case the Dalish don't bother to mention their flaws, again. :/

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Can you be a bit more specific?  dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Dales only seems to have a Dalish / Not Dalish version.

In which case the Dalish don't bother to mention their flaws, again. :/

Here ya go.

It talks about a small Elven raiding party attacking Red Crossing in anger. As I said, it's merely an implication. Bear in mind, however, that the City Elves grow up with the Chantry version so there is room for doubt. 

However, I also wouldn't take this to mean "The Dalish don't mention their flaws", because it seems to point more towards fringe elements within the Dalish causing the entire war with the humans by those actions -- which would be more of a "We didn't know about these fringe elements" as opposed to "They never existed, we're innocent". Indeed, I've often posited before that fringe elements seem the more likely kernel of truth then "The Dales did it" or "Orlais/the Chantry did it to give pretense for Orlais to go to war".

Though I tend to have the latter as my back-up theory, mainly out of hatred for Orlais and the Chantry. I seriously wouldn't put it past Orlais to sacrifice an entire village if it meant they could take over a land that's more fertile then what Orlais now has -- a Blight-ridden wasteland. 

And even so, if it was an act of anger there could be any number of reasons why they attacked the village, if the Dalish were indeed responsible. Anything from a murder of an Elven child by villagers' hands to "Damn Shemlen!" to a border skirmish that got out of hand.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2013 - 03:45 .

[Dave of Canada]

Could the Dragon Age encyclopedia be considered canon? It doesn't really paint as if it was written by in-character people and iirc, it mentions the Chantry version of the Fall of the Dales.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 février 2013 - 03:44 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Could the Dragon Age encyclopedia be considered canon? It doesn't really paint as if it was written by in-character people and iirc, it mentions the Chantry version of the Fall of the Dales.

You mean World of Thedas? I'd take parts of it as canon -- the nature of broodmother births, for instance -- and other parts as merely being repetitions of game-cited material. Depends on what it says.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Here ya go.

It talks about a small Elven raiding party attacking Red Crossing in anger. As I said, it's merely an implication. Bear in mind, however, that the City Elves grow up with the Chantry version so there is room for doubt. 

However, I also wouldn't take this to mean "The Dalish don't mention their flaws", because it seems to point more towards fringe elements within the Dalish causing the entire war with the humans by those actions -- which would be more of a "We didn't know about these fringe elements" as opposed to "They never existed, we're innocent". Indeed, I've often posited before that fringe elements seem the more likely kernel of truth then "The Dales did it" or "Orlais/the Chantry did it to give pretense for Orlais to go to war".

Though I tend to have the latter as my back-up theory, mainly out of hatred for Orlais and the Chantry. I seriously wouldn't put it past Orlais to sacrifice an entire village if it meant they could take over a land that's more fertile then what Orlais now has -- a Blight-ridden wasteland. 

And even so, if it was an act of anger there could be any number of reasons why they attacked the village, if the Dalish were indeed responsible. Anything from a murder of an Elven child by villagers' hands to "Damn Shemlen!" to a border skirmish that got out of hand.

Anger against what though?  It doesn't say anything about why the anger is there. 

And most of the Dalish stories only talk about what happened to them, "we were forced out" or "our homeland was destroyed".  They have never really taken any responsibility for what has happened to them.  As easy or convenient as it would be oto blame the Chantry or Orlais, I cannot believe the Dalish are blameless.  And we can't just invent fringe elements when most of the Dalish we have met are automatically hostile to non-Dalish.  The majority is not a fringe thing.

Oh, I'm sure Orlais is expansionist and would love the Dales.  But the Dalish could have stopped at any point prior to sacking the capitol.  Which is what brought on the problems.

Well, I'm going to take the moderate route and say even if it was a border dispute, or if a child was murdered, the Dalish struck first blows in the terms of a raiding party. 

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Anger against what though?  It doesn't say anything about why the anger is there.  

Hence the implication.

And most of the Dalish stories only talk about what happened to them, "we were forced out" or "our homeland was destroyed".  They have never really taken any responsibility for what has happened to them.

Would you know about a fringe element in your society, necessarily?

As easy or convenient as it would be oto blame the Chantry or Orlais, I cannot believe the Dalish are blameless.  And we can't just invent fringe elements when most of the Dalish we have met are automatically hostile to non-Dalish.  The majority is not a fringe thing.

But they aren't hostile. Hostility would be them brandishing weapons and threatening humans, a la Tamlen and Mahariel at first. But in two games, we have seen two clans that are very blunt towards non-Elves but otherwise are calm.

That's not hostility. That's just being a tad rude. Hostility would be shouting at you, with weapons drawn. But Marethari's guards weren't even that bad when you meet them in DAII.

Oh, I'm sure Orlais is expansionist and would love the Dales.  But the Dalish could have stopped at any point prior to sacking the capitol.  Which is what brought on the problems.

True. They could've stopped by issuing terms of peace towards the Chantry and I do wonder why they did not see that assaulting the Chantry's seat of power would be a bad move. Perhaps they underestimated the strength of the religion, as it was only then starting to gain a foothold throughout Thedas. 

Sure enough, Orlais underestimated the Elves' might.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2013 - 04:30 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Hence the implication.

Would you know about a fringe element in your society, necessarily?

But they aren't hostile. Hostility would be them brandishing weapons and threatening humans, a la Tamlen and Mahariel at first. But in two games, we have seen two clans that are very blunt towards non-Elves but otherwise are calm.

That's not hostility. That's just being a tad rude. Hostility would be shouting at you, with weapons drawn. But Marethari's guards weren't even that bad when you meet them in DAII.

True. They could've stopped by issuing terms of peace towards the Chantry and I do wonder why they did not see that assaulting the Chantry's seat of power would be a bad move. Perhaps they underestimated the strength of the religion, as it was only then starting to gain a foothold throughout Thedas. 

Sure enough, Orlais underestimated the Elves' might.

I wouldn't really call it an implication when it only mentions anger.  They could have just been angry that the Chantry was sending missionaries and decided to sack the town.  Assuming the worst right off the bat is a bit foolish.

Well, for them to assault the village, they would need to get past the Emerald Guards, right?  Well, if this village was near the border, there should be a large concentration of guards there, or at least nearby.  So either this raiding party was small enough to sneak past the border guards but large enough to sack the village *or* they went by unopposed *or* it was sanctioned.  Or the Emerald Guards just suck, but that wouldn't explain how they took Orlais.

I believe I recall the Dalish threatening me for walking around in the woods.  Then lying to my face about why they're stuck in the woods, potentially insulting my heritage and call me racist lingo like "shem" and whatnot.  Lots of hostility.

Not just that.  We hear so much about the elves' religion being trampled on when they and destroy the Vatican City of the religion devoted to the woman who got them the Dales.  Good show, there. <_<

Which resulted in the destruction of the Dales and a schism in the elves.

[Sifr]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Not just that.  We hear so much about the elves' religion being trampled on when they and destroy the Vatican City of the religion devoted to the woman who got them the Dales.  Good show, there. <_<

You mean the religion that repeatedly violated their borders, sent missionaries to convert them from their heathen worship, and redacted the entire Canticle of Shartan from the Chant of Light, the section dealing with the Dalish general who was one of the main leaders of Andraste's army?

No, totally unreasonable why they'd be little miffed at the Chantry!

Keep in mind we often hear the Dalish speak respectfully of Andraste, who's revered as the woman who helped them gain freedom from the Tevinters. It's just that the religion founded around her has caused them nothing but trouble ever since.

It's not to say that the Dalish aren't to blame, as even Hahren Paivel admits that the Elves were too arrogant and believed that their old accords with the human's prophet would prevent their disputes from escalating into open conflict.

I'd categorise the Fall of the Dales as a series of misunderstandings and culture clashes, which lead to retaliatory strikes from both sides. Neither side was completely blameless or in the right.

Additionally, I don't think we can fairly accuse the Dalish of being a group of hostile, racial supremacists, when we often see humans act the exact same way or worse towards the City Elves.

When was the last time, for instance, we heard of the Dalish raping, murdering, or selling human prisoners into slavery?

(And before someone points out the humans in the Dalish Origin, if they're set free, they immediately head off and raise the neighbouring villages against the Dalish, forcing them to flee the Brecilian Forest. Killing them could be thus argued as reasonable self-defence, in order to protect the tribe.)

Modifié par Sifr1449, 23 février 2013 - 06:00 .

[TEWR]

I believe I recall the Dalish threatening me for walking around in the woods.

If you dodge the question on why you're there, sure. And I'd say it's warranted then because they're asking you what your purpose is and you're evading the question and not answering.

That's actually really suspicious.

Then lying to my face about why they're stuck in the woods,

It wouldn't be sound for them to reveal that they're trapped and weakened to people they don't know, let alone people that can't really prove they're Grey Wardens when they claim it.

Your only proof is your word and an old treaty you have, which doesn't prove you're a Grey Warden anyway. Any bandit or looter could come across that treaty and pass themselves off as a Grey Warden.

potentially insulting my heritage and call me racist lingo like "shem" and whatnot.

that still isn't hostile. That's rude, but not hostile.

Not just that. We hear so much about the elves' religion being trampled on when they and destroy the Vatican City of the religion devoted to the woman who got them the Dales. Good show, there.

To be fair, is sending missionaries to the nation that fought beside Andraste truly a good thing? Is it respecting her? She gave them that land knowing full well they wanted to regain their culture and society. Is sending missionaries living up to her ideals?

I'd say no.

I wouldn't really call it an implication when it only mentions anger. They could have just been angry that the Chantry was sending missionaries and decided to sack the town. Assuming the worst right off the bat is a bit foolish.

Isn't that what you're doing by assuming they assaulted the town simply for missionaries being sent?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2013 - 05:58 .

[TEWR]

redacted the entire Canticle of Shartan from the Chant of Light, the section dealing with the Dalish general who was one of the main leaders of Andraste's army?

To be fair, that happened after the war, not before.

Doesn't make it right to keep it redacted for so long, though.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If you dodge the question on why you're there, sure. And I'd say it's warranted then because they're asking you what your purpose is and you're evading the question and not answering.

That's actually really suspicious.

With what right do the elves keep citizens of Ferelden from walking around in a free forest inside their own country and then threaten them to violence should they refuse?

To be fair, is sending missionaries to the nation that fought beside Andraste truly a good thing? Is it respecting her? She gave them that land knowing full well they wanted to regain their culture and society. Is sending missionaries living up to her ideals?

I'd say no.

If we go by the Chant of Light, yes. According to it, the Maker promised to assist Andraste and return to the world if all of the people of Thedas abandoned their false gods and worshipped only Him.
By continuing to worship the elven phanteon, the elves were disrespecting the woman who fougth for their freedom and activelly preventing the return of the Maker.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 février 2013 - 02:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Could the Dragon Age encyclopedia be considered canon? It doesn't really paint as if it was written by in-character people and iirc, it mentions the Chantry version of the Fall of the Dales.

Except the lore and the narrative of Origins has at least two different versions of the fall of the Dales.

[TEWR]

With what right do the elves keep citizens of Ferelden from walking around in a free forest inside their own country and then threaten them to violence should they refuse?

Self-preservation.

If we go by the Chant of Light, yes.

If we go by the Chant of Light actually penned by Andraste, no. Much of what was written in the Chant of Light was either written immediately or long after her death. The parts that we can assume were written by her -- her own Canticle, for instance -- do not talk about the Elven Gods being false gods unworthy of worship.

The Old Gods, yes, because they were the gods of her enemy the Imperium.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you dodge the question on why you're there, sure. And I'd say it's warranted then because they're asking you what your purpose is and you're evading the question and not answering.

That's actually really suspicious.

It wouldn't be sound for them to reveal that they're trapped and weakened to people they don't know, let alone people that can't really prove they're Grey Wardens when they claim it.

Your only proof is your word and an old treaty you have, which doesn't prove you're a Grey Warden anyway. Any bandit or looter could come across that treaty and pass themselves off as a Grey Warden.

that still isn't hostile. That's rude, but not hostile.

To be fair, is sending missionaries to the nation that fought beside Andraste truly a good thing? Is it respecting her? She gave them that land knowing full well they wanted to regain their culture and society. Is sending missionaries living up to her ideals?

I'd say no.

Isn't that what you're doing by assuming they assaulted the town simply for missionaries being sent?

Oh, well excuse me, it's not bad enough that my dwarf was sentenced to death and only rescued by Duncan, nor will they be with the Stone again, but now some tall, twig wielding brat has the gall to try and investigate my group (armed yes, part of being in a haunted forest full of wolves and bears calls for that).  Uh uh, no, not putting up with that.  Maybe I should ask why the local human villages are missing their children (as Merrill lets us know, it's the best way for a Dalish party to go).

Or that their Keeper was the cause of all of it because he wouldn't give up a grudge. 

In th ebest taste, no.  But even the Dwarves don't kill that Chantry Dwarf for attempting his missionary work unless the Warden goes out of his way to help him with it and they regularily slaughter people over politics.  If the Elven Shaperate didn't want the Missionaries there, they shouldn't have let them preach.

Based on the behavior of the Dalish we've seen (including randomly assaulting people for no reason, hunting down people who were *forced* into being werewolves by their own Keeper, creating a werewolf curse in the first place...) I find it more believable that they struck first and over such a small reason than the murder of elven children.

Sifr1449 wrote...
You mean the religion that repeatedly
violated their borders, sent missionaries to convert them from their
heathen worship, and redacted the entire Canticle of Shartan from the
Chant of Light, the section dealing with the Dalish general who was one
of the main leaders of Andraste's army?

No, totally unreasonable why they'd be little miffed at the Chantry!

Keep
in mind we often hear the Dalish speak respectfully of Andraste, who's
revered as the woman who helped them gain freedom from the Tevinters.
It's just that the religion founded around her has caused them nothing
but trouble ever since.

It's not to say that the Dalish aren't to
blame, as even Hahren Paivel admits that the Elves were too arrogant
and believed that their old accords with the human's prophet would
prevent their disputes from escalating into open conflict.

I'd
categorise the Fall of the Dales as a series of misunderstandings and
culture clashes, which lead to retaliatory strikes from both sides.
Neither side was completely blameless or in the right.

Additionally,
I don't think we can fairly accuse the Dalish of being a group of
hostile, racial supremacists, when we often see humans act the exact
same way or worse towards the City Elves.

When was the last time, for instance, we heard of the Dalish raping, murdering, or selling human prisoners into slavery?

(And
before someone points out the humans in the Dalish Origin, if they're
set free, they immediately head off and raise the neighbouring villages
against the Dalish, forcing them to flee the Brecilian Forest. Killing
them could be thus argued as reasonable self-defence, in order to
protect the tribe.)

The Chant was only redacted after the elves sacked Orlais and the Exalted March called, if I remember it correctly.  As for missionary work, it might be annoying, but no reason to start a war over it.

Um, the humans in the Dalish Origin do that because they were just assaulted by the Dalish and having a bunch of murderous racial supremists in your woods is never a good thing. :/

And yes, the behavior towards the City Elves is indeed abominable.  But when was the last time we heard of humans turning guilty people into werewolves, who then went about and made a number of innocents into werewolves and made the situation stupidly worse?

[dragonflight288]

Maybe I should ask why the local human villages are missing their children (as Merrill lets us know, it's the best way for a Dalish party to go).

I don't know if you're being serious or not as this is the internet...but Merrill was being sarcastic. The Warden (if Dalish) can make a joke that's exactly the same.

Or that their Keeper was the cause of all of it because he wouldn't give up a grudge.

Not the cause of it all certainly, but he most certainly built it up and never wanted a peaceful solution to begin with. He was content punishing entire generations for the crimes of their ancestors, but the werewolves themselves were bestial as well.

Based on the behavior of the Dalish we've seen (including randomly assaulting people for no reason, hunting down people who were *forced* into being werewolves by their own Keeper, creating a werewolf curse in the first place...) I find it more believable that they struck first and over such a small reason than the murder of elven children.

Randomly hunting people as Mahariel with Tamlen, you get told off by Merethari (even if you let the people go, the result is exactly the same.) Zathrian kept the source of the werewolf curse a secret, and most of the Dalish said they'd rather die than turn into 'ravaging, mindless beasts.' Athras's wife specifically requests the warden kill her and end her suffering.

Of course, the Dalish are very suspicious and somewhat hostile to all outsiders.

Then I compare that to Chantry and Orlesian history. Orlais sent troops to help Nevarra with a blight, but once the blight was over...their troops never left and they occupied the country and just took it over. Drakon and the Chantry (which was one of many Andrastian cults) used a series of exalted marches to build their empire and spread the chant. Orlais has a very strong history of aggressive expansion, and the Chantry strongly supports Orlais. The Chantry teaches that the chant must be sung from all four corners of the world to earn the Maker's forgiveness. They are not above using force to make people convert or die (the Rivaini Qunari were peaceful, but were slaughtered in such great numbers in an exalted march that the veil was sundered.) I saw in Act 2 a templar be accused of torturing a young hunter with fire, before killing him, and all she says in defense is "I don't care about these knife-ears."

Then I look at motivation. What motivation did the Dalish have to invade Orlais. Their policy is isolationism. They want to cut themselves off from human contact completely in an effort to restore their lost immortality. They posted Emerald Knights at their borders to turn away all humans. From traders and emissaries to missionaries.

Orlais had just suffered through a blight and much of their farmland was blighted, so they were short on fertile fields. The Dales were plenty fertile, and codex entries say that the emperor wanted to expand north to Nevarra, but the Dales stood in the way.

It looks to me, that the Orlesians had the most to gain from a war with the Dalish. Fertile farmland, a path to Nevarra that was being blocked, and a lot of Chantry converts to help serve them or live in alienages. The Dalish didn't have anywhere near as much to gain.

I have no doubt that the Dalish had their share of dirty laundry they don't want to talk about during the war. But I see more motivations and chance of reward on the Orlesian and Chantry side, so I think it's far more likely that it was Orlais that started the war, and the moment it was obvious they were losing, the Chantry declared an exalted march, bringing to arms the force of all Andrastian nations under their influence.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Oh, well excuse me, it's not bad enough that my dwarf was sentenced to death and only rescued by Duncan, nor will they be with the Stone again, but now some tall, twig wielding brat has the gall to try and investigate my group (armed yes, part of being in a haunted forest full of wolves and bears calls for that).

So you expect Mithra to have some mystical insight as to why your group is armed and approaching the clan? While the Brecilian Forest is known to be a haven for Demons and corpses, she does not know that is why you're armed. She does not know that you are a Grey Warden.

What's known is that you're a group of armed people approaching a Dalish clan, and it's Mithra's duty to make sure that the Dalish aren't threatened.

All she does is question you. That you refer to it as "some gall" for her to ascertain pertinent information relevant to the safety of an entire colony is.... maddeningly unfair. She assumes you're a random well-armed traveler and says "You have no business" because her task is to protect the clan without instigating trouble.

When you say "I have business with the clan", she voices her personal doubts but asks you to elaborate. If you dodge the question too many times, I can only assume she does threaten you. Though I voiced certainty before, I've actually never heard Mithra's remarks on the matter if you fail to answer here question. 

Regardless, her asking for why you're near their camp and what your business entails is not outlandish, given that they are in a very weakened state. She does not immediately brandish a weapon or threaten you -- if at all -- and she is not at all hostile to you. She may be blunt and rude to you depending on your race -- City Elves arguably get the worst of that -- but she is not initially hostile.

Not to mention she apologizes for her questions and actions, saying that she just needed to protect her people.

Uh uh, no, not putting up with that.  Maybe I should ask why the local human villages are missing their children (as Merrill lets us know, it's the best way for a Dalish party to go).

1) I've never heard this.
2) dragonflight refuted it anyway. 

Or that their Keeper was the cause of all of it because he wouldn't give up a grudge.  

What does this have to do with how Mithra was acting when you first meet her? Not to mention Zathrian kept the entire curse a secret from his clan, so asking the clan about why their Keeper did this isn't going to do anything other then make them say "Well, he never told us anything. He bore his secrets close to his chest".

And besides, Zathrian's hardly the only person to let his personal grief cloud his judgement such that it impeded his duty as a protector to people. Meredith, for example. 

In th ebest taste, no.  But even the Dwarves don't kill that Chantry Dwarf for attempting his missionary work unless the Warden goes out of his way to help him with it and they regularily slaughter people over politics.  If the Elven Shaperate didn't want the Missionaries there, they shouldn't have let them preach.

"Elven Shaperate" has me confuzled. 

Regardless, if the Chantry was more open to hearing out the thoughts of other cultures on the Maker, they might not try and proselytize to the Dwarves. The Dwarves do not deny the existence of a Maker. They only see him as a distant being not worth attention when the Stone is quite real and all around him.

The Chantry preaches that "it must enlighten the other cultures" but in truth they're the ones that need enlightening. Tolerance is a key step for that. 

Based on the behavior of the Dalish we've seen (including randomly assaulting people for no reason, hunting down people who were *forced* into being werewolves by their own Keeper, creating a werewolf curse in the first place...) I find it more believable that they struck first and over such a small reason than the murder of elven children.

1) Happened long after the Fall of the Dales, where there could be a mentality shift
2) That hunter did not know Zathrian was the source of the curse. Indeed, if one sides with the Werewolves one has the option of telling her how Zathrian began the curse and she admits that the Elves brought their own destruction.
3) After Humans raped his daughter and butchered his boy, wherein the daughter killed herself. His continuance of the curse for so long is reprehensible -- though understandable -- but the beginning of it as punishment isn't so bad. It's bad, perhaps due to the innocents who suffered when there could've been other ways to eke out poetic justice, but it's not like it's "OMG OMG OMG OMG this paints the Elves wholesale as bad people".

And as I've said before, Elves are not the only people to let tragic occurrences cloud their judgement when they are put in positions of authority.

Oh, and then there's Lanaya, who's actually a decent Elf in the clan and I suppose the Dalish might refer to City-turned-Dalish as newbloods or some such. But as she is accepted as a part of the clan, she's a Dalish.

And also this:

dragonflight288 wrote...

Then I compare that to Chantry and Orlesian history. Orlais sent troops to help Nevarra with a blight, but once the blight was over...their troops never left and they occupied the country and just took it over. Drakon and the Chantry (which was one of many Andrastian cults) used a series of exalted marches to build their empire and spread the chant. Orlais has a very strong history of aggressive expansion, and the Chantry strongly supports Orlais. The Chantry teaches that the chant must be sung from all four corners of the world to earn the Maker's forgiveness. They are not above using force to make people convert or die (the Rivaini Qunari were peaceful, but were slaughtered in such great numbers in an exalted march that the veil was sundered.) I saw in Act 2 a templar be accused of torturing a young hunter with fire, before killing him, and all she says in defense is "I don't care about these knife-ears." 

Then I look at motivation. What motivation did the Dalish have to invade Orlais. Their policy is isolationism. They want to cut themselves off from human contact completely in an effort to restore their lost immortality. They posted Emerald Knights at their borders to turn away all humans. From traders and emissaries to missionaries. 

Orlais had just suffered through a blight and much of their farmland was blighted, so they were short on fertile fields. The Dales were plenty fertile, and codex entries say that the emperor wanted to expand north to Nevarra, but the Dales stood in the way. 

It looks to me, that the Orlesians had the most to gain from a war with the Dalish. Fertile farmland, a path to Nevarra that was being blocked, and a lot of Chantry converts to help serve them or live in alienages. The Dalish didn't have anywhere near as much to gain. 

I have no doubt that the Dalish had their share of dirty laundry they don't want to talk about during the war. But I see more motivations and chance of reward on the Orlesian and Chantry side, so I think it's far more likely that it was Orlais that started the war, and the moment it was obvious they were losing, the Chantry declared an exalted march, bringing to arms the force of all Andrastian nations under their influence.

Though I'd note, dragonflight288, that while the Dales are somewhat fertile land, they have a shortage of rivers and rainfall since they live in the shadow of the Frostbacks. Most of the settlements are coastal villages. All that said, however, the key word is most. There are are a few lush green areas in the Dales area -- the Arbor Wilds and the Heartlands, for instance -- and Halamshiral was originally a tree city, but it's not a complete field fit for crops.

Still, it's more land for Orlais to help deal with the land that was ruined by the Darkspawn during the Second Blight.

Um, the humans in the Dalish Origin do that because they were just assaulted by the Dalish and having a bunch of murderous racial supremists in your woods is never a good thing. :/

Actually, that's noted as being par for the course for the Dalish. No matter how they treat humans, they're always faced with humans trying to kick them out of where they are even if they're not a threat. Sundermount with the Sabrae clan, Velanna, DAO's Sabrae clan instance, and even Chantry scholars have noted that the Dalish receive this treatment IIRC.

Velanna's group, for instance, was not harming anyone where they camped. Merchant caravans were able to pass through as the aravels were nestled at the very top of the hillside, not along the Wending Wood's main path. Yet Mayor Grisby thought that the Dalish were the problem, simply because of their presence there, and sent the militia to deal with them.

This caused tensions to rise between the Elves and the Humans. In truth, the Darkspawn and Sylvans were probably destroying a few caravans before The Seeker and his group assaulted most of the clan and took Seranni and another Elf. As he was doing that, he was curious to see how Velanna would react if things took a turn for the worse between her current dilemma and so he exacerbated the conflict. And then Velanna did start making sure the caravans were unable to come through.

But when was the last time we heard of humans turning guilty people into werewolves, who then went about and made a number of innocents into werewolves and made the situation stupidly worse?

Well, sure you won't hear other stories like that. But we've seen the Baroness use the souls of young girls to feed her vanity and then she trapped an entire community in a Fade rendition of the Blackmarsh when they sought justice, because she viewed them as little more then tools.

Orlais sold Elves like cattle during the Orlesian Occupation, raped women, killed anyone that didn't agree to their demands, burnt homes, etc.

Humans are just as wicked to Elves as Zathrian's punishment was to people not connected to the original crime or criminals. More so, I'd argue. Zathrian's a lone occurrence made in a fit of such agonizing grief that eventually controlled him until he was persuaded to relent or killed. Humans regularly abuse the Elves -- though I don't find the City Elves to be blameless all the time. Depends on the circumstances. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 février 2013 - 06:56 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So you expect Mithra to have some mystical insight as to why your group is armed and approaching the clan? While the Brecilian Forest is known to be a haven for Demons and corpses, she does not know that is why you're armed. She does not know that you are a Grey Warden.

What's known is that you're a group of armed people approaching a Dalish clan, and it's Mithra's duty to make sure that the Dalish aren't threatened.

All she does is question you. That you refer to it as "some gall" for her to ascertain pertinent information relevant to the safety of an entire colony is.... maddeningly unfair. She assumes you're a random well-armed traveler and says "You have no business" because her task is to protect the clan without instigating trouble.

When you say "I have business with the clan", she voices her personal doubts but asks you to elaborate. If you dodge the question too many times, I can only assume she does threaten you. Though I voiced certainty before, I've actually never heard Mithra's remarks on the matter if you fail to answer here question. 

Regardless, her asking for why you're near their camp and what your business entails is not outlandish, given that they are in a very weakened state. She does not immediately brandish a weapon or threaten you -- if at all -- and she is not at all hostile to you. She may be blunt and rude to you depending on your race -- City Elves arguably get the worst of that -- but she is not initially hostile.

Not to mention she apologizes for her questions and actions, saying that she just needed to protect her people.
1) I've never heard this.
2) dragonflight refuted it anyway. 

What does this have to do with how Mithra was acting when you first meet her? Not to mention Zathrian kept the entire curse a secret from his clan, so asking the clan about why their Keeper did this isn't going to do anything other then make them say "Well, he never told us anything. He bore his secrets close to his chest".

And besides, Zathrian's hardly the only person to let his personal grief cloud his judgement such that it impeded his duty as a protector to people. Meredith, for example. 

"Elven Shaperate" has me confuzled. 

Regardless, if the Chantry was more open to hearing out the thoughts of other cultures on the Maker, they might not try and proselytize to the Dwarves. The Dwarves do not deny the existence of a Maker. They only see him as a distant being not worth attention when the Stone is quite real and all around him.

The Chantry preaches that "it must enlighten the other cultures" but in truth they're the ones that need enlightening. Tolerance is a key step for that.

1) Happened long after the Fall of the Dales, where there could be a mentality shift
2) That hunter did not know Zathrian was the source of the curse. Indeed, if one sides with the Werewolves one has the option of telling her how Zathrian began the curse and she admits that the Elves brought their own destruction.
3) After Humans raped his daughter and butchered his boy, wherein the daughter killed herself. His continuance of the curse for so long is reprehensible -- though understandable -- but the beginning of it as punishment isn't so bad. It's bad, perhaps due to the innocents who suffered when there could've been other ways to eke out poetic justice, but it's not like it's "OMG OMG OMG OMG this paints the Elves wholesale as bad people".

And as I've said before, Elves are not the only people to let tragic occurrences cloud their judgement when they are put in positions of authority.

Oh, and then there's Lanaya, who's actually a decent Elf in the clan and I suppose the Dalish might refer to City-turned-Dalish as newbloods or some such. But as she is accepted as a part of the clan, she's a Dalish.

And also this:

Well, sure you won't hear other stories like that. But we've seen the Baroness use the souls of young girls to feed her vanity and then she trapped an entire community in a Fade rendition of the Blackmarsh when they sought justice, because she viewed them as little more then tools.

Orlais sold Elves like cattle during the Orlesian Occupation, raped women, killed anyone that didn't agree to their demands, burnt homes, etc.

Humans are just as wicked to Elves as Zathrian's punishment was to people not connected to the original crime or criminals. More so, I'd argue. Zathrian's a lone occurrence made in a fit of such agonizing grief that eventually controlled him until he was persuaded to relent or killed. Humans regularly abuse the Elves -- though I don't find the City Elves to be blameless all the time. Depends on the circumstances. 

Is she not a Dalish?  Yes, I do expect something more!  And what, does she expect the group of under ten people to take out the entire Dalish clan?  And yes, if you come across someone in a dangerous area, it makes perfect sense to imagine they are outfitted for the danger. 

And she's extremely rude for a sentry.  :/

Merrill has some dialog with, Anders, I believe, about abducting children to sacrifice and then dance in their entrails under the moon.  It's rather disturbing.  And while I initially believed she was kidding, a number of her actions don't jive well with her supposed moments of sarcasm.

Yes, and I agree that Meredith was wrong.  But we're talking about the Dalish now; the actions or inactions of others really doesn't have anything to do with the Templar.

Well, if the Elves *had* a Shaperate, there might still be a Dales.  So I'm pretty sure they are in their situation as a result of their inferior ways. :happy:

Why would the Chantry care about the religion of Dwarves?  They've left them well enough alone and only intervene if the Missionary is killed.  Neither Orzammar or any other Thaig (the one supposedly under Orlais, that other one that survived~) seemed to have any Chantry at all.  So the Stone has been tolerated up to the point where Andrastians are under attack.

1) You mean the Isolationist nation that threw out missionaries (which we later see assaulting people for the crime of being in the same general area) may have become even worse?  Truly I am shocked.
2) At least some see the light.
3) He could have just killed them (or chosen a curse which didn't harm others), but instead chose to curse them and anyone they infect to a horrible fate, in addition to the Spirit (or Demon) that he used to help in the first place.  And this goes into the "Keepers are magical tyrants" argument, because he didn't seem to consult anyone on this before hand.

Which, if I recall her story well enough, is only really because she was in a similar situation to Zath's own daughter, right?  We really only see one other city elf turned Dalish and his Keeper and First get him killed.

Humans are pretty bad, yes.  Especially the mage ones. But the two Dalish clans acted quite similarily, while we see humans and city elves as all sorts.

So yes, the Dalish are basically the Orlesians and Tevinter of the Human world.  Good show?

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't know if you're being
serious or not as this is the internet...but Merrill was being
sarcastic. The Warden (if Dalish) can make a joke that's exactly the
same.

Not the cause of it all certainly, but he most certainly
built it up and never wanted a peaceful solution to begin with. He was
content punishing entire generations for the crimes of their ancestors,
but the werewolves themselves were bestial as well.

Randomly
hunting people as Mahariel with Tamlen, you get told off by Merethari
(even if you let the people go, the result is exactly the same.)
Zathrian kept the source of the werewolf curse a secret, and most of the
Dalish said they'd rather die than turn into 'ravaging, mindless
beasts.' Athras's wife specifically requests the warden kill her and end
her suffering.

Of course, the Dalish are very suspicious and somewhat hostile to all outsiders.

So two Dalish from the same clan making the same joke?  Not sure if I should be worried or not.

Not all the werewolves deserved that.  Maybe, maybe the originals, but not any of the other ones.  I'm sorry you're racist against the forced furries though. 

*cough* Dalish tyrants, eh?  *cough*

Yes, I'm sure that their mobile society would be impeded very much so by <10 strangers with shoddy weapons and armor.

[TEWR]

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Is she not a Dalish?  Yes, I do expect something more![/quote]

Then that's unreasonable. Simply belonging to another culture does not mean she is going to have some mind-probing insight into who the Warden is.

[quote]And what, does she expect the group of under ten people to take out the entire Dalish clan?  And yes, if you come across someone in a dangerous area, . [/quote]

A couple hundred Wardens took on an entire King's Army numbering in the thousands before they were exiled, excluding the Demons. Wardens are capable of taking on 10-20 Darkspawn each. Wynne's an Abomination technically. Morrigan was raised by Flemeth the Flemeth.

Sten is a Qunari warrior who are known for their training, such that it virtually crippled Thedas. Zevran's a trained assassin. Oghren's a Dwarven berserker who would take pain and anger and just charge forward again and again.

Dog is a fierce Mabari and smarter then most people. And then there's Shale, a goddamn Golem.

This small group of 10 people could easily clean the clocks of anyone.

[quote]it makes perfect sense to imagine they are outfitted for the danger[/quote]

And how do you know she didn't entertain that as a possibility for why they were armed, but still wanted to be certain that the group didn't pose a threat to the clan itself?

You don't.

[quote]And she's extremely rude for a sentry.  :/[/quote]

Meh, a lot of guards can be rude. The Dwarven guard was rude some might say -- though Imrik would try anyone's patience -- but it's not anything to condemn the Dalish for, much less label them as "often more hostile then not."

That Dwarven guard's one of my favorites though.


[quote]Merrill has some dialog with, Anders, I believe, about abducting children to sacrifice and then dance in their entrails under the moon.  It's rather disturbing.  And while I initially believed she was kidding, a number of her actions don't jive well with her supposed moments of sarcasm. [/quote]

Ah, I think I remember now. Yes, it is a joke. A joke that plays off the propagandist lies spread by the Chantry about the Dalish claiming they sacrifice people to their gods.

The Dalish Warden can indeed make the same joke to Pol, IIRC, to which the Elf near Pol says "He's just joking" or something along those lines. And when Leliana brings up the rumors about the Dalish he can say "Those aren't true".

[quote]
Why would the Chantry care about the religion of Dwarves?  They've left them well enough alone and only intervene if the Missionary is killed.  Neither Orzammar or any other Thaig (the one supposedly under Orlais, that other one that survived~) seemed to have any Chantry at all.  So the Stone has been tolerated up to the point where Andrastians are under attack.[/quote]

When the Chantry's sending missionaries to convert the Dwarves, I'd say they're not really tolerating them. For all we know Orzammar rebuked other missionaries time and time again but only accepted this one because he's a Dwarf and he might "return to the Way of the Ancestors". Certainly, that's one of the few reasons Czibor would even consider opening a Chantry -- that a Dwarf would be the one doing the preaching.

It could be that the Chantry wanted a Dwarf to convince the Dwarves, as other attempts had failed. 



[quote]1) You mean the Isolationist nation that threw out missionaries (which we later see assaulting people for the crime of being in the same general area) may have become even worse?  Truly I am shocked.[/quote]

I thought you were referring to attacks from today's Dalish, in which my point was today's Dalish have a different mindset from the Elves of the past and using today's Dalish as evidence of previous Dalish Elves' ****ness is backwards logic.

We don't even know how the Emerald Guards rejected the missionaries. Only that they did.


[quote]2) At least some see the light. [/quote]

Bear in mind that no one in Zathrian's clan knew about what he had done. Some suspected his involvement, but they had no proof.


[quote]3) He could have just killed them (or chosen a curse which didn't harm others), but instead chose to curse them and anyone they infect to a horrible fate, in addition to the Spirit (or Demon) that he used to help in the first place.  And this goes into the "Keepers are magical tyrants" argument, because he didn't seem to consult anyone on this before hand.[/quote]

Oh come on. The Keepers are not magical tyrants simply because a man in his grief acted irrationally. By the Paragons....

[quote]Which, if I recall her story well enough, is only really because she was in a similar situation to Zath's own daughter, right?  We really only see one other city elf turned Dalish and his Keeper and First get him killed.[/quote]

No, Pol's Keeper got Pol killed. Merrill had nothing to do with that.

But yes, Lanaya was in a similar situation to Zathrian's own daughter. Her family were with a merchant caravan and they were all killed, save for her. She was then made their servant and it's implied she was one sexually along with just being a servant in general.


[quote]So yes, the Dalish are basically the Orlesians and Tevinter of the Human world.  Good show?[/quote]

The Dalish are not like the Orlesians and Tevinter of the human world. They can be boneheaded at times, but that's not the same as being morally repugnant.

[dragonflight288]

So two Dalish from the same clan making the same joke? Not sure if I should be worried or not.

Two different people outside of American making jokes of americans having games with decapitations being more acceptable than nudity....don't know if I should be worried. lol.

It happens. When a culture is a victim of propaganda, it's easy to make fun of the propaganda.

Honestly. If the Dalish are trying their very best to remove all contact with humans to regain their immortality....by the stone why would they go to human lands, kidnap human children, and bring them into their camps as sacrifices? They try to avoid causing trouble so they can stay in one place for a longer period of time, rather than get kicked out all the time...which happens anyway.

EDIT:

So yes, the Dalish are basically the Orlesians and Tevinter of the Human world.  Good show?

.....exactly how is this possible? I have never seen ANY evidence that the Dalish enslaved anyone. I have not seen any evidence that they are a magocracy...save for the codex entries and lore that suggest that once, every elf was a mage. I have not seen the Dalish as a whole use blood magic as part of their culture. I have not seen them, or even hear rumors of them, having an order of knights who can rape women as part of their rights. I have never heard of them subjugating others for the sake of it. And there's no evidence anywher in the codexes of the Dales conquering their neighbors willy-nilly.

They can be bone-headed and arrogant, and filled to the brim with self-righteousness and believing themselves superior to everyone else....but how on earth does that make them anywhere close to Tevinter or Orlais?

Modifié par dragonflight288, 24 février 2013 - 06:10 .

[dragonflight288]

Though I'd note, dragonflight288, that while the Dales are fertile land, they have a shortage of rivers and rainfall since they live in the shadow of the Frostbacks. Most of the settlements are coastal villages. All that said, however, the key word is most. There are are a few lush green areas in the Dales area -- the Arbor Wilds and the Heartlands, for instance -- and Halamshiral was originally a tree city.

Oh. Thanks.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then that's unreasonable. Simply belonging to another culture does not mean she is going to have some mind-probing insight into who the Warden is.

A couple hundred Wardens took on an entire King's Army numbering in the thousands before they were exiled, excluding the Demons. Wardens are capable of taking on 10-20 Darkspawn each. Wynne's an Abomination technically. Morrigan was raised by Flemeth the Flemeth.

Sten is a Qunari warrior who are known for their training, such that it virtually crippled Thedas. Zevran's a trained assassin. Oghren's a Dwarven berserker who would take pain and anger and just charge forward again and again.

Dog is a fierce Mabari and smarter then most people. And then there's Shale, a goddamn Golem.

This small group of 10 people could easily clean the clocks of anyone.

And how do you know she didn't entertain that as a possibility for why they were armed, but still wanted to be certain that the group didn't pose a threat to the clan itself?

You don't.

Meh, a lot of guards can be rude. The Dwarven guard was rude some might say -- though Imrik would try anyone's patience -- but it's not anything to condemn the Dalish for, much less label them as "often more hostile then not."

That Dwarven guard's one of my favorites though.

Ah, I think I remember now. Yes, it is a joke. A joke that plays off the propagandist lies spread by the Chantry about the Dalish claiming they sacrifice people to their gods.

The Dalish Warden can indeed make the same joke to Pol, IIRC, to which the Elf near Pol says "He's just joking" or something along those lines. And when Leliana brings up the rumors about the Dalish he can say "Those aren't true".

When the Chantry's sending missionaries to convert the Dwarves, I'd say they're not really tolerating them. For all we know Orzammar rebuked other missionaries time and time again but only accepted this one because he's a Dwarf and he might "return to the Way of the Ancestors". Certainly, that's one of the few reasons Czibor would even consider opening a Chantry -- that a Dwarf would be the one doing the preaching.

It could be that the Chantry wanted a Dwarf to convince the Dwarves, as other attempts had failed.

I thought you were referring to attacks from today's Dalish, in which my point was today's Dalish have a different mindset from the Elves of the past and using today's Dalish as evidence of previous Dalish Elves' ****ness is backwards logic.

We don't even know how the Emerald Guards rejected the missionaries. Only that they did.

No, Pol's Keeper got Pol killed. Merrill had nothing to do with that.

But yes, Lanaya was in a similar situation to Zathrian's own daughter. Her family were with a merchant caravan and they were all killed, save for her. She was then made their servant and it's implied she was one sexually along with just being a servant in general.

The Dalish are not like the Orlesians and Tevinter of the human world. They can be boneheaded at times, but that's not the same as being morally repugnant.

Oh?  Elves have mated with and destroyed Maiar and even wounded a Valar.  So yes, I expect more from these supposed super Dalish elves.

And what are the odds of those people all together wandering the woods?

Ah, but the Dwarf is guarding a static, well known area.  The Entrance of Orzammar, right?  Well, here we have this elf sort of just trying to find excuses to kill people in some haunted woods, wondering why people might be armed with werewolves running around.

A joke or the truth dressed up as a joke?  You need to ask these things.  And while NearbyElf might say that, well, the Keeper does end up sacrificing Pol, doesn't she?

The Chantry's missionaries were rebuked, but no exalted march was called and no human village outside Orzammar was sacked, so the Dwarves must be more mature about the whole thing, given that, again, the exalted march only comes after the missionary is killed, not after he was rebuffed.

Dalish are awful regardless of the era, really.

Well, apparently it required Templar escort, while the various attempts to the Dwarves has not yet required any such thing.

Keeper and First, as I said.  Which is both of them. 

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Oh, well excuse me, it's not bad enough that my dwarf was sentenced to death and only rescued by Duncan, nor will they be with the Stone again, but now some tall, twig wielding brat has the gall to try and investigate my group (armed yes, part of being in a haunted forest full of wolves and bears calls for that).  Uh uh, no, not putting up with that.  Maybe I should ask why the local human villages are missing their children (as Merrill lets us know, it's the best way for a Dalish party to go).

Let's take a look at that line of dialogue:

Anders: Do the Dalish ever have fancy parties? I always imagined they celebrated most big occasions by eating mushrooms and acorns. And maybe dancing naked around a campfire.

Merrill: You know, I was wondering when the naked dancing was going to start. And the human sacrifice. I mean, you just can't throw a decent party without kidnapping a human child and offering her entrails to the sky gods.

Anders: Really?

Merrill: No.

You were saying?

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or that their Keeper was the cause of all of it because he wouldn't give up a grudge.  

You mean the rape of his daughter and the brutal murder of his son? I'd imagine that would negatively impact most people.

BlueMagitek wrote...

In th ebest taste, no.  But even the Dwarves don't kill that Chantry Dwarf for attempting his missionary work unless the Warden goes out of his way to help him with it and they regularily slaughter people over politics.  If the Elven Shaperate didn't want the Missionaries there, they shouldn't have let them preach.

If the elves didn't want a missionary from the Chantry in their sovereign territory, the Chantry should have respected that, instead of sending armed and armored soldiers into the Dales to force the elves to convert.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Based on the behavior of the Dalish we've seen (including randomly assaulting people for no reason, hunting down people who were *forced* into being werewolves by their own Keeper, creating a werewolf curse in the first place...) I find it more believable that they struck first and over such a small reason than the murder of elven children.

Let me get this straight: based on the Dalish protagonist either sparing two humans (who incite a village to attack the Dalish if spared) or killing two humans, and Zathrian's clan defending themselves against werewolf attacks, you are condemning all the Dalish in Thedas?

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Chant was only redacted after the elves sacked Orlais and the Exalted March called, if I remember it correctly.  As for missionary work, it might be annoying, but no reason to start a war over it.

There is when you sent templars into the Dales to force conversion, because the elves refused to convert and kicked out their missionaries from sovereign territory.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Um, the humans in the Dalish Origin do that because they were just assaulted by the Dalish and having a bunch of murderous racial supremists in your woods is never a good thing. :/

The two humans weren't assaulted in that scene, they were confronted - specifically, by two members of the Sabrae clan (one of them being the Dalish protagonist). The Dalish protagonist and Tamlen were investigating who the two humans were, because they were encroaching towards their camp. I don't see how you can seriously defend two humans who incited a multitude of humans in a village to attack an entire camp of Dalish elves simply because they were confronted by two Dalish hunters.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And yes, the behavior towards the City Elves is indeed abominable.  But when was the last time we heard of humans turning guilty people into werewolves, who then went about and made a number of innocents into werewolves and made the situation stupidly worse?

When was the last time you heard of a kingdom of elves enslaving humans and destroying their kingdom with blood magic? Or invading their new homeland with templars because the humans refused to convert to their religion? Or hunting down their clans for centuries? Just curious.