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[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The two humans weren't assaulted in that scene, they were confronted - specifically, by two members of the Sabrae clan (one of them being the Dalish protagonist). The Dalish protagonist and Tamlen were investigating who the two humans were, because they were encroaching towards their camp. I don't see how you can seriously defend two humans who incited a multitude of humans in a village to attack an entire camp of Dalish elves simply because they were confronted by two Dalish hunters.

People don't usually take kind to groups of violent non-citizens who obey no laws but their own wandering around in the forest they likely draw sustenance from in the form of hunt and who or might not decide to kill you based on how nice they are feeling that day.

When was the last time you heard of a kingdom of elves enslaving humans and destroying their kingdom with blood magic? Or invading their new homeland with templars because the humans refused to convert to their religion? Or hunting down their clans for centuries? Just curious.

The Dalish Invasion of Orlais and the Dalish attack on the Alamarri tribes of Ferelden.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The two humans weren't assaulted in that scene, they were confronted - specifically, by two members of the Sabrae clan (one of them being the Dalish protagonist). The Dalish protagonist and Tamlen were investigating who the two humans were, because they were encroaching towards their camp. I don't see how you can seriously defend two humans who incited a multitude of humans in a village to attack an entire camp of Dalish elves simply because they were confronted by two Dalish hunters.

People don't usually take kind to groups of violent non-citizens who obey no laws but their own wandering around in the forest they likely draw sustenance from in the form of hunt and who or might not decide to kill you based on how nice they are feeling that day.

The Dalish have no homeland because the Dales was sacked following an invasion by the imperialistic empire that has conquered and invaded since it's inception. I'm sure you can continue to vilify the Dalish for having no kingdom of their own, an event that the elves claimed transpired as a direct result of their refusal to convert to the religion of the Chantry.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When was the last time you heard of a kingdom of elves enslaving humans and destroying their kingdom with blood magic? Or invading their new homeland with templars because the humans refused to convert to their religion? Or hunting down their clans for centuries? Just curious.

The Dalish Invasion of Orlais and the Dalish attack on the Alamarri tribes of Ferelden. 

You mean the Dalish retaliation against templars invading their sovereign territory because they refused to captiulate to the Chantry, and their subsequent attack against a violent faction of humans who were known for violence themselves?

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish have no homeland because the Dales was sacked following an invasion by the imperialistic empire that has conquered and invaded since it's inception. I'm sure you can continue to vilify the Dalish for having no kingdom of their own, an event that the elves claimed transpired as a direct result of their refusal to convert to the religion of the Chantry.

What lead to the Dalish being a wandering people has no bearing whatsoever over what I just said.
Matter of fact is, a portion if not most of that village probrably drew sustenance as well as clothing and trade materials from the very forest the dalish have just set in. And it's also a fact that dalish are armed, numerous, obey no law but their own and if a group of their hunters, like we actually see happening, find humans from the villages as they go about on their daily business, they can just decide to kill them on the spot.
So yeah, that village has good reasons to fear the dalish that set camp there.

You mean the Dalish retaliation against templars invading their sovereign territory because they refused to captiulate to the Chantry, and their subsequent attack against a violent faction of humans who were known for violence themselves?

Did or did the dalish not attempt to destroy the homeland of the orlesians with blood magic (the old ways)? Yes, they did. That is a fact.
Did or did they not attack first the alamarri in their homeland? Yes, they did. Again, fact.
Is the situation as black and white as that? No. But your question was when was the last time the elves destroyed the homelands of humans.
They did it twice, at the very least.

The excuse that the alamarri tribes were violent can be applied to the Dales just s easily. They refused all efforts at trade and civilized discourse from the humans and did not lift a hand against the Darkspawn to help them. Clearly, they are hostile and care nothing about us. We should attack them before they attack us.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 février 2013 - 09:22 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish have no homeland because the Dales was sacked following an invasion by the imperialistic empire that has conquered and invaded since it's inception. I'm sure you can continue to vilify the Dalish for having no kingdom of their own, an event that the elves claimed transpired as a direct result of their refusal to convert to the religion of the Chantry.

What lead to the Dalish being a wandering people has no bearing whatsoever over what I just said.
Matter of fact is, a portion if not most of that village probrably drew sustenance as well as clothing and trade materials from the very forest the dalish have just set in. And it's also a fact that dalish are armed, numerous, obey no law but their own and if a group of their hunters, like we actually see happening, find humans from the villages as they go about on their daily business, they can just decide to kill them on the spot.
So yeah, that village has good reasons to fear the dalish that set camp there.

The Dalish don't follow human rule because it would require them to give up worship of their gods, which is illegal in Andrastian lands. And inciting a village to attack people who are living in isolation from you is still an act that you seem to strongly defend, for reasons that make no sense to me.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the Dalish retaliation against templars invading their sovereign territory because they refused to captiulate to the Chantry, and their subsequent attack against a violent faction of humans who were known for violence themselves? 

Did or did the dalish not attempt to destroy the homeland of the orlesians with blood magic (the old ways)? Yes, they did. That is a fact.

Merrill doesn't actually pinpoint the timeline for her reference to the "old ways", nor does she say it was used during the Dalish retaliation against the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry of Andraste.

MisterJB wrote...

Did or did they not attack first the alamarri in their homeland? Yes, they did. Again, fact.
Is the situation as black and white as that? No. But your question was when was the last time the elves destroyed the homelands of humans.
They did it twice, at the very least.

The Dalish didn't destroy the Alamarri homeland, nor did they destroy the tribe - as the people were the ancestors of modern day Fereldens. The Chantry lead forces invaded the Dales, and forced them out - leaving the elves no choice but to go elsewhere, with templars hunting down the nomadic tribes of the Dalish.

MisterJB wrote...

The excuse that the alamarri tribes were violent can be applied to the Dales just s easily. They refused all efforts at trade and civilized discourse from the humans and did not lift a hand against the Darkspawn to help them. Clearly, they are hostile and care nothing about us. We should attack them before they attack us. 

The elves of the Dales wanted to be left alone to regain their culture and their immortality in land they earned as a consequence of Shartan and his armies fighting alongside Andraste and her people. The Dalish who entered the warring teyrnirs of pre-Ferelden were forced out of their homeland by a coalition of Chantry lead forces. It isn't even remotely similar.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish don't follow human rule because it would require them to give up worship of their gods, which is illegal in Andrastian lands. And inciting a village to attack people who are living in isolation from you is still an act that you seem to strongly defend, for reasons that make no sense to me.

The people in that village likely relied on that forest for food (animal meat) clothing and trading (hide, teeth). Suddenly, a group of armed people who don't obey the laws; which are in place secure the existence of societies, to assure justice; and who will threaten with death anyone who comes too close to their camp and who can decide or not to kill them depending largely on how benevolent they are feeling that day.
The people of that village have no idea if the elves intend to attack them. And even if they don't, they are still cutting them off from a potential source of income.
It's true that the dalish have little option beyond wandering since everything above ground is human land and that Marethari had no intention to attack them; altough that's more for fear of Ferelden's armies than anything else; but none of that changes the fact the people of that village had good reason to fear the Dalish.

Merrill doesn't actually pinpoint the timeline for her reference to the "old ways", nor does she say it was used during the Dalish retaliation against the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry of Andraste.

I could make a strong case for the elves of the Dales using blood magic but, it's not really important.

How about this. The Dalish Elves will acknowledge they attempted to destroy Orlais and the Chantry will acknowledge Shartan fought beside Andraste. Sounds good?

The Dalish didn't destroy the Alamarri homeland, nor did they destroy the tribe - as the people were the ancestors of modern day Fereldens. The Chantry lead forces invaded the Dales, and forced them out - leaving the elves no choice but to go elsewhere, with templars hunting down the nomadic tribes of the Dalish.

Which doesn't change the fact they attacked the alamarri in their homeland.

The elves of the Dales wanted to be left alone to regain their culture and their immortality in land they earned as a consequence of Shartan and his armies fighting alongside Andraste and her people. The Dalish who entered the warring teyrnirs of pre-Ferelden were forced out of their homeland by a coalition of Chantry lead forces. It isn't even remotely similar.

That is the view you have of the elves of the Dales. Based on their behavior, the ancient orlesians likely had a very different perspective and considered them as dangerous and the elves considered the alamarri.
That depopulation of the Dales only happened after the elves attempted to do the same to the humans of Orlais so, they were probrably justified.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 février 2013 - 09:57 .

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's take a look at that line of dialogue:

Anders: Do the Dalish ever have fancy parties? I always imagined they celebrated most big occasions by eating mushrooms and acorns. And maybe dancing naked around a campfire.

Merrill: You know, I was wondering when the naked dancing was going to start. And the human sacrifice. I mean, you just can't throw a decent party without kidnapping a human child and offering her entrails to the sky gods.

Anders: Really?

Merrill: No.

You were saying?

You mean the rape of his daughter and the brutal murder of his son? I'd imagine that would negatively impact most people.

If the elves didn't want a missionary from the Chantry in their sovereign territory, the Chantry should have respected that, instead of sending armed and armored soldiers into the Dales to force the elves to convert.

Let me get this straight: based on the Dalish protagonist either sparing two humans (who incite a village to attack the Dalish if spared) or killing two humans, and Zathrian's clan defending themselves against werewolf attacks, you are condemning all the Dalish in Thedas?

There is when you sent templars into the Dales to force conversion, because the elves refused to convert and kicked out their missionaries from sovereign territory.

The two humans weren't assaulted in that scene, they were confronted - specifically, by two members of the Sabrae clan (one of them being the Dalish protagonist). The Dalish protagonist and Tamlen were investigating who the two humans were, because they were encroaching towards their camp. I don't see how you can seriously defend two humans who incited a multitude of humans in a village to attack an entire camp of Dalish elves simply because they were confronted by two Dalish hunters.

When was the last time you heard of a kingdom of elves enslaving humans and destroying their kingdom with blood magic? Or invading their new homeland with templars because the humans refused to convert to their religion? Or hunting down their clans for centuries? Just curious.

From the person that cannot tell when Hawke is bluffing about a fire and is willing to entertain selling someone's soul to a demon, I'm not entirely sure she's being truthful.

Yes, it would.  However, there's a difference between just taking action against those responsible and people who have nothing at all to do with the situation.  He literally just made the rapists/murderers more powerful.  Yay?

Well, when the Dalish stop doing stupid things for the sake of tradition, this will be considered.

I'm going to assume worse happen based on our favorite Dwarf Chantry member, who is only murdered if the Shaperate allows for it.  If the Elves had just ignored him, it would have been k.

Because having an army of people in the woods who don't follow your laws or let you know where they are when they come by is just asking to get murdered?

Fereldan had a huge werewolf problem.  Way to go, Dalish Elves. :/
The sacking of Orlais by the Emerald Knights.
True, the elves didn't do the last one, but only because they didn't have the power to do so.

[IanPolaris]

The Dalish had nothing to do with Fereldan's Werewolf problem. Only the Werewolves of the Brecilian forest were created by Zathrien's curse. We are told this very specifically.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Dalish had nothing to do with Fereldan's Werewolf problem. Only the Werewolves of the Brecilian forest were created by Zathrien's curse. We are told this very specifically.

-Polaris

Where, if I may ask?

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Dalish had nothing to do with Fereldan's Werewolf problem. Only the Werewolves of the Brecilian forest were created by Zathrien's curse. We are told this very specifically.

-Polaris

Where, if I may ask?

When you talk with Zathrian, he tells you.  You can ask very specifically if all Werewolves come from Winterfang, and he will explicitly tell you they do not, but the ones in the Brecilian Forest do.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

And why are we taking his word at value when it's apparently alright to discount any Codex entry by a Chantry scholar?

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And why are we taking his word at value when it's apparently alright to discount any Codex entry by a Chantry scholar?

There isn't any codex entry by a Chantry Scholar or otherwise that says the Dalish created Werewolves.  Indeed not even the Dalish know about Zathrien's role (although his first, Lanaya did guess in the end).  

Zathrien has no reason to lie when he talks to you about Werewolves in general vs those in the Brecelian Forest.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Not only that but we have direct game evidence that Zathrian was telling the truth.  Werewolves continue to exist in Thedas, yet we know that the Warden can break Zathrian's curse and that curse cures all Werewolves afflicted by his curse.  If Zathrian really were responsible for all Werewolves than ending the curse should eliminate all Werewolves everywhere, and it doesn't.  Only those in the Brecilian forest as he said.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 février 2013 - 12:51 .

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And why are we taking his word at value when it's apparently alright to discount any Codex entry by a Chantry scholar?

Because Werewolves predate Zathrian and have been determined to be, in most cases, wolves possessed by Rage Demons. Witherfang's curse is actually a variation of the idea. It's the spirit of the forest bound to a wolf, which causes the same things that a Rage Demon possessing a wolf would when it bites someone.

IanPolaris wrote...

Edit PS: Not only that but we have direct game evidence that Zathrian was telling the truth. Werewolves continue to exist in Thedas, yet we know that the Warden can break Zathrian's curse and that curse cures all Werewolves afflicted by his curse. If Zathrian really were responsible for all Werewolves than ending the curse should eliminate all Werewolves everywhere, and it doesn't. Only those in the Brecilian forest as he said.

Also this.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 février 2013 - 01:16 .

[TEWR]

From the person that cannot tell when Hawke is bluffing about a fire and is willing to entertain selling someone's soul to a demon, I'm not entirely sure she's being truthful.

Oh for the love of God...

NO.

For one, human sarcasm/lies/trickery is lost on her in her first year in Kirkwall, mainly because of inexperience with another race of people. But take her to the clan and she's sarcastic/confident to Master Ilen and other members of the clan. She's capable of making her own jokes. The sadness is that people who don't know her actually take her jokes seriously -- Anders, Aveline, etc.

For another, she advocates you listening to Torpor so you can get valuable information on Feynriel's mental state and the Demons. She advocates trying to trick demons before they trick you -- as she knows that all spirits are dangerous and she even makes mention of tricking demons before they trick you in the Deep Roads.

She's a supporter of gaining knowledge, not of selling peoples' souls. But you're also the person who comes to wildly inaccurate interpretations of anything to do with Merrill, facts be damned. I enjoy talking with you on Mages and Templars and other things, but I find your views on Merrill to be.... well.... if not trollish just absurd. No offense meant, but it's kinda hard for that not to be offensive. 

Anyway, she does not, at any point, advocate selling Feynriel's soul to Torpor. She believes that Hawke is siding with Torpor to actually trick him and that's where the friendship points come in. She does not know if he's actually going to do it, and if Hawke does go through with it Merrill isn't there to see it -- due to the Demon mind controlling her as Demons of Pride and Desire are capable of when in the Fade, their domain where they're at their most powerful. And it's something they'll do to all the other companions as well.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 février 2013 - 01:32 .

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

Edit PS:  Not only that but we have direct game evidence that Zathrian was telling the truth.  Werewolves continue to exist in Thedas, yet we know that the Warden can break Zathrian's curse and that curse cures all Werewolves afflicted by his curse.  If Zathrian really were responsible for all Werewolves than ending the curse should eliminate all Werewolves everywhere, and it doesn't.  Only those in the Brecilian forest as he said.

This is an acceptable answer.  If we are going to disregard information or automatically assume it is horribly skewed, then taking a vengeful elf who is in fact guilty at his word is a no go.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because Werewolves
predate Zathrian and have been determined to be, in most cases, wolves
possessed by Rage Demons. Witherfang's curse is actually a variation of
the idea. It's the spirit of the forest bound to a wolf, which causes
the same things that a Rage Demon possessing a wolf would when it bites
someone.

See above.  Though, did anyone every say anything about why Forest Spirit was a Desire Demon?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Oh for the love of God...

NO.

....

I will not get into a Merrill discussion.  She's not the sort of character I enjoy.  But you may be correct about her first year in Kirkwall.  I revise my statement to "The person who is working on a powerful and tainted magical artifact in the middle of a poor district in a crowded city full of blood mages and insane templar with no real plan if anything goes horribly wrong."

[TEWR]

The person who is working on a powerful and tainted magical artifact in the middle of a poor district in a crowded city full of blood mages and insane templar with no real plan if anything goes horribly wrong."

It's no longer tainted. But, I will not engage in a discussion beyond that if you do not wish to.

See above.  Though, did anyone every say anything about why Forest Spirit was a Desire Demon?

She's not a Desire Demon. Her appearance is nothing like one. She is a spirit of the forest itself, derived from the lands within the Brecilian Forest. Not the Fade. The Elder Oak even refers to her as the spirit of the forest.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 février 2013 - 08:04 .

[dragonflight288]

See above. Though, did anyone every say anything about why Forest Spirit was a Desire Demon?

Where is it stated or shown in any way, shape or form that she was a desire demon. She was called the spirit of the forest. The Elder Rhyming Oak tree refers to her as a spirit who once roamed the woods, but disappeared around the same time the werewolves first turned up.

She's not a demon. She never was referred to as a demon. She's a spirit, meaning she is one of two things. A. More benign than the demons, or B. simply doesn't care about mortals before her being bound to witherfang.

[BlueMagitek]

Really? From my memory she looks as one. Look at her eyes.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Really? From my memory she looks as one. Look at her eyes.

That's not compelling evidence. Just because her eyes possess a vague similarity to a Desire Demon's doesn't mean much, considering she looks nothing like a Desire Demon. Besides, a Desire Demon wouldn't want to go through with something that destroys her life and gives her subjects back their lives.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Really? From my memory she looks as one. Look at her eyes.

She's missing the horns. She's missing the tail, and more than one kind of spirit has eyes.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Really? From my memory she looks as one. Look at her eyes.

That's not compelling evidence. Just because her eyes possess a vague similarity to a Desire Demon's doesn't mean much, considering she looks nothing like a Desire Demon. Besides, a Desire Demon wouldn't want to go through with something that destroys her life and gives her subjects back their lives.

I will accept the first part, but if Anders can bond with a spirit and turn it into a demon, can a demon not bond with an animal and, overtime, turn from her own desire to fulfilling those of her subjects?

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Really? From my memory she looks as one. Look at her eyes.

That's not compelling evidence. Just because her eyes possess a vague similarity to a Desire Demon's doesn't mean much, considering she looks nothing like a Desire Demon. Besides, a Desire Demon wouldn't want to go through with something that destroys her life and gives her subjects back their lives.

I will accept the first part, but if Anders can bond with a spirit and turn it into a demon, can a demon not bond with an animal and, overtime, turn from her own desire to fulfilling those of her subjects?

Maybe. Or a demon may possess something else and it may become a more benign spirit, and change to embody a virture rather than a vice.

[Foolsfolly]

thats1evildude wrote...

Mobuse wrote...

For some reason that didn't happen in my game....I even went to her house but there was no conversation available...

Note: the dialogue at her house only occurs if Merrill is at 100 per cent Friendship or Rivalry.

The Wiki also says the quest may not trigger if you talked to Marethari beforehand. 

That explains why out of however many Hawkes I've played I've only seen that bit via a bug (beginning of Act 3 for like 3-4 Hawkes) or when I was romancing her.

Latest Hawke totally got nothing from her. Killed her whole clan and have probably about 90% rivalry from her and a side quest to speak to her that never starts.

...

...sigh.

DA2 could have been great even a little more time to bake.