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[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Duncan understood the Taint but his knowledge of its connection with the Black City and, furthermore, the connection of the City with the Eluvian would be limited at the very best.

Yes and Duncan understands the difference between what he knows and what he thinks he knows unlike some.  The mirror was tainted and was acting as a focusing agent for the taint.  You have absolutely no proof or even real evidence that what Tamlen saw was the black city.  You are leaping to conclusions.  He would know that mirrors can get tainted and are dangerous when they do.

No, I'm not. Morrigan, thanks to her aprenticeship with Flemeth, knows more about old magic that anyone one else we've seen in Thedas. This is made obviously clear by the Dark Ritual which involved the Taint.
Morrigan says she went to great pains to activate the Eluvian; something Merril never actually accomplished which raises the possibility that is what stopped the return of the Taint; which could mean that she cleansed the Eluvian long enough for it to be used to travel to the Black City.

There you go again leaping to conclusions.  Morrigan never says she had to cleanse the Elluvian.  Indeed, the lights of Arthathan were needed because Morrigan's Elluvian was untainted and the shard in Witch's Hunt was tainted.  Morrigan was able to activate the mirror and Merril wasn't but apparently Merrill wasn't off by much since if you listen to her, you find that the mirror is magical but 'sleeping'.  You are leaping to conclusions about the black city.  It would be like forbidden the construction of automobiles because someone might drive one into a lake.

Bottom line, there is a strong possibility that the Eluvian is inherently dangerous so long as the Black City is Tainted; nevermind that it apparently can be used as a portal for demons; and it should be studied in a remote location with a strong Veil by senior Enchanters with Templars and Grey Wardens nearby. Not by a lone, young elf in the backroom of her hut in the middle of a city full of innocents where the Veil is paper thin.

No, you are leaping to conclusions.  The Ancient Elves used these mirrors widely.  Yes, misused the mirrors have a risk but that's true with anything (like the aformore mentioned automobile), but that doesn't make the INHERENTLY tainted.  The mirrors existed long before the blight after all.  As for studying them under supervision, Merrill is never given that opportunity which makes your criticism of her doubly unfair.  Merrill takes every precaution she knows how within the limations of what she can do.  It was the clan that kicked her out, and it was the clan that denied her any magical help whatsoever (at Merethari's behest no less).  Working on the mirror as a loner in the wilderness is not an option since Merrill would be dead within the year (as she explains).  You are being grossly unfair in your criticism.

It's not that a blood mage is incapable of distinguishing between religion and science. It's that Merril has allowed her views of the Chantry to pollute her views of demons.

Nope.  You it bass ackwards.  It is ANDERS and both the circle mages and Templars that hav allowed their view of religion to pollute their views of demons and the fade/magic in general.  Blood magic is in fact just another source of magic albeit a dangerous one.  You do not need demons to learn blood magic, and in fact there is no such thing as a "good spirit" and allowing any spirit to possess you is...problematic.  Merrill understands this from a careful understanding of the ancient magics.  For that matter Morrigan understands this too (as you find out if you take her into the fade to help  Conner or in the circle).

All spirits are dangerous, that's true. But, when Anders attempts to explain that demons break down into different sins, she dismisses this as a human story yo explain the world and that demons differ from each other like humans do.
However, if one should read the Codex entry on sloth demons, for instance, one will see that the Chantry and the Circle have studied demons extensively. They have observed their behavior. who they are most attracted to, their effect on people. That's a scientific study.
If Merril wants to believe in the Creators and not the Maker, that's fine. The truth lies probrably somewhere in the middles, anyway. But she can't simply disregard these studies just because they were conducted by humans and not elves.

Actually the circle has not really studied demons extensively.  In fact if you read William's journal (in Honnleth) you find that he complains that the Templars/Chantry forbid any real research and wonders how one can fight demons if one doesn't study them and understand them.  Most of the circle entries you cite are from chantry sources with the chantry putting their own spin on spirits and the fade.  In fact both Tevinter and the Dalish both know spirits and magic far better than the Circle ever does.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Yes and Duncan understands the difference between what he knows and what he thinks he knows unlike some.  The mirror was tainted and was acting as a focusing agent for the taint.  You have absolutely no proof or even real evidence that what Tamlen saw was the black city.  You are leaping to conclusions.  He would know that mirrors can get tainted and are dangerous when they do.

Spare me the oh so subtle insults. There is extensive evidence that points to the Eluvians leading to the Black City. Evidence that I've presented and that you have made no effort to counter choosing instead to ignore it.

There you go again leaping to conclusions.  Morrigan never says she had to cleanse the Elluvian.  Indeed, the lights of Arthathan were needed because Morrigan's Elluvian was untainted and the shard in Witch's Hunt was tainted.  Morrigan was able to activate the mirror and Merril wasn't but apparently Merrill wasn't off by much since if you listen to her, you find that the mirror is magical but 'sleeping'.  You are leaping to conclusions about the black city.

I am comteplating the possibility Morrigan had to deal with the Taint to activate an Eluvian with basis on the observed characteristics of other Eluvians. You refuse to do so because it doesn't fit your view what is going on.

It would be like forbidden the construction of automobiles because someone might drive one into a lake.

Scientific experimentation is often conducted in laboratories with teams of experienced scientist as well as safety measures. Not given to the first teenage girl that hops along.

No, you are leaping to conclusions.  The Ancient Elves used these mirrors widely.  Yes, misused the mirrors have a risk but that's true with anything (like the aformore mentioned automobile), but that doesn't make the INHERENTLY tainted.  The mirrors existed long before the blight after all.

I am not leaping to conclusions, I am speculating with basis on what we know to be true.
We know that the Eluvians once connected the elven empire therefore, there is reason to believe that they were all connected to the capital, Arlathan, once. We also know that this capital was "sunk into the ground" by the Magisters and that, centuries later, five magisters would attempt to breach into a city that was unreachable from both the Fade and Thedas and that this lead to them becoming Tainted which suggests the Black City is the heart of the Taint.
A thousand years later, Tamlen finds a Tainted Eluvian, glances through it and sees a dark city. Morrigan claims the Eluvian leads to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade.
The Black City matches this description, all of this could be easily explained by a connection between the Eluvians, the Taint and the Black City with the Black City being Arlathan that was contaminated with the Taint as a result of whatever the magisters of old did to banish it beyond Thedas and the Fade.
But you think it's all a coincidence? The Ancient elves would have no problem using the mirrors because they only became dangerous either after the magisters banished Arlathan or after Corypheus&Co ventured into it and released the Taint upon the world.

As for studying them under supervision, Merrill is never given that opportunity which makes your criticism of her doubly unfair.  Merrill takes every precaution she knows how within the limations of what she can do.  It was the clan that kicked her out, and it was the clan that denied her any magical help whatsoever (at Merethari's behest no less).  Working on the mirror as a loner in the wilderness is not an option since Merrill would be dead within the year (as she explains).  You are being grossly unfair in your criticism.

If Merril is not capable of conducting tests in a safe environment, then she shouldn't be tinkering with the Eluvian at all. Find someone who might either help you or do the research himself. Do it right or don't do it all, the risk is too great.

Nope.  You it bass ackwards.  It is ANDERS and both the circle mages and Templars that hav allowed their view of religion to pollute their views of demons and the fade/magic in general.  Blood magic is in fact just another source of magic albeit a dangerous one.  You do not need demons to learn blood magic, and in fact there is no such thing as a "good spirit" and allowing any spirit to possess you is...problematic.  Merrill understands this from a careful understanding of the ancient magics.  For that matter Morrigan understands this too (as you find out if you take her into the fade to help  Conner or in the circle).

Actually the circle has not really studied demons extensively.  In fact if you read William's journal (in Honnleth) you find that he complains that the Templars/Chantry forbid any real research and wonders how one can fight demons if one doesn't study them and understand them.  Most of the circle entries you cite are from chantry sources with the chantry putting their own spin on spirits and the fade.  In fact both Tevinter and the Dalish both know spirits and magic far better than the Circle ever does.

-Polaris

Read these codex entries, all written by either templars or Senior Enchanters and tell me where their religious views are affecting their studies of demons. Studies that are, obviously, being conducted despite what William might say:
http://dragonage.wik...y:_Desire_Demon
http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Pride_Demon
http://dragonage.wik...ex_entry:_Shade
http://dragonage.wik...onic_Possession
http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Sloth_Demon

It was the Chantry and the Circle who actually managed to conduct these scientific observations so as to better classify the demons. They know a lot more about them than the Dalish who seem to think of them as a different "people" and compare them to humans or dwarves.
Humans and dwarves are capable of more emotions than one, of striving towards more things than one, of having contradictory feelings. Spirits are capable of none of thse things.
I agree with Merril that all Spirits are dangerous but apart from that, she is dead wrong in her beliefs.

[dragonflight288]

Tamlen said he saw a city underground. He could've seen Orzammar or a thaig for all we know.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Tamlen said he saw a city underground. He could've seen Orzammar or a thaig for all we know.

The Fade is constantly changing shapes. I think my theory makes very good sense, don't you?

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Tamlen said he saw a city underground. He could've seen Orzammar or a thaig for all we know.

The Fade is constantly changing shapes. I think my theory makes very good sense, don't you?

Only if you assume what you want to prove...so no it doesn't make good sense.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There you go again leaping to conclusions.  Morrigan never says she had to cleanse the Elluvian.  Indeed, the lights of Arthathan were needed because Morrigan's Elluvian was untainted and the shard in Witch's Hunt was tainted.  Morrigan was able to activate the mirror and Merril wasn't but apparently Merrill wasn't off by much since if you listen to her, you find that the mirror is magical but 'sleeping'.  You are leaping to conclusions about the black city.

I am comteplating the possibility Morrigan had to deal with the Taint to activate an Eluvian with basis on the observed characteristics of other Eluvians. You refuse to do so because it doesn't fit your view what is going on.

It's mentioned Morrigan found an "uncorrupted Eluvian".

MisterJB wrote...

I agree with Merril that all Spirits are dangerous but apart from that, she is dead wrong in her beliefs.

The difference is religious, as we know from the debates between Anders and Merrill:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

This is addressed again in another conversation:

Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?

Merrill: We’ve never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.

Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins -

Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less...

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 janvier 2013 - 11:31 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Yes and Duncan understands the difference between what he knows and what he thinks he knows unlike some.  The mirror was tainted and was acting as a focusing agent for the taint.  You have absolutely no proof or even real evidence that what Tamlen saw was the black city.  You are leaping to conclusions.  He would know that mirrors can get tainted and are dangerous when they do.[/quote]
Spare me the oh so subtle insults. There is extensive evidence that points to the Eluvians leading to the Black City. Evidence that I've presented and that you have made no effort to counter choosing instead to ignore it.
[/quote]

What evidence?  The only thin you are basing your far fetched speculation on is:

1.  The Elluvian found by the Tamlen was tainted.
2.  Mirrors like this have been tainted before.
3.  Tamlen saw a Dark City.

That's it.  That's hardly any evidence at all let alone "overwhelming".  I have largely ignored your claims because your claims are just that:  Claims  Claims you make with no evidence at all.

[quote]
[quote]
There you go again leaping to conclusions.  Morrigan never says she had to cleanse the Elluvian.  Indeed, the lights of Arthathan were needed because Morrigan's Elluvian was untainted and the shard in Witch's Hunt was tainted.  Morrigan was able to activate the mirror and Merril wasn't but apparently Merrill wasn't off by much since if you listen to her, you find that the mirror is magical but 'sleeping'.  You are leaping to conclusions about the black city.[/quote]
I am comteplating the possibility Morrigan had to deal with the Taint to activate an Eluvian with basis on the observed characteristics of other Eluvians. You refuse to do so because it doesn't fit your view what is going on.
[/quote]

You are ASSUMING what you want to believe and are trying to show.  That is bad logic and analysis.  My point stands.  At no time does Morrigan say ANYTHING about having to deal with the taint.


[quote]

[quote]It would be like forbidden the construction of automobiles because someone might drive one into a lake.[/quote]
Scientific experimentation is often conducted in laboratories with teams of experienced scientist as well as safety measures. Not given to the first teenage girl that hops along.
[/quote]

All of which Merrill begged the keeper for.  It is the keeper that is being closed minded about this, not Merrill.  As for being careful, who is it that takes the time to get a failsafe if negotiations with the demon go badly.  Who is it that carefully isolates the shard and shows it to very few people.  Yes, it's Merrill.  Merrill is doing the best she can with what she has.

[quote]
[quote]
No, you are leaping to conclusions.  The Ancient Elves used these mirrors widely.  Yes, misused the mirrors have a risk but that's true with anything (like the aformore mentioned automobile), but that doesn't make the INHERENTLY tainted.  The mirrors existed long before the blight after all.[/quote]
I am not leaping to conclusions, I am speculating with basis on what we know to be true.
[/quote]

Which means YOU DON"T KNOW.  You are leaping to the conclusion that the mirrors are inherently tainted even though the available evidence strongly suggests otherwise.


[quote]
We know that the Eluvians once connected the elven empire therefore, there is reason to believe that they were all connected to the capital, Arlathan, once. We also know that this capital was "sunk into the ground" by the Magisters and that, centuries later, five magisters would attempt to breach into a city that was unreachable from both the Fade and Thedas and that this lead to them becoming Tainted which suggests the Black City is the heart of the Taint.
[/quote]

You are leaping to a connection and a conclusion that is not warrented by the evidence.

[quote]
A thousand years later, Tamlen finds a Tainted Eluvian, glances through it and sees a dark city. Morrigan claims the Eluvian leads to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade.
[/quote]

Again you go leaping to conclusions.

[quote]
The Black City matches this description, all of this could be easily explained by a connection between the Eluvians, the Taint and the Black City with the Black City being Arlathan that was contaminated with the Taint as a result of whatever the magisters of old did to banish it beyond Thedas and the Fade.
But you think it's all a coincidence? The Ancient elves would have no problem using the mirrors because they only became dangerous either after the magisters banished Arlathan or after Corypheus&Co ventured into it and released the Taint upon the world.
[/quote]

Merrill worked on that shard for YEARS after cleansing it with no sign of taint.  Morrigan worked on her Elluvian for years with no sign of taint.  The Black City isn't the only place that is beyond the fade either.

So again, you are leaping to conclusions because you want to believe that Merrill is the stupid villian when the facts suggest something very different.


[quote]

[quote]As for studying them under supervision, Merrill is never given that opportunity which makes your criticism of her doubly unfair.  Merrill takes every precaution she knows how within the limations of what she can do.  It was the clan that kicked her out, and it was the clan that denied her any magical help whatsoever (at Merethari's behest no less).  Working on the mirror as a loner in the wilderness is not an option since Merrill would be dead within the year (as she explains).  You are being grossly unfair in your criticism.[/quote]
If Merril is not capable of conducting tests in a safe environment, then she shouldn't be tinkering with the Eluvian at all. Find someone who might either help you or do the research himself. Do it right or don't do it all, the risk is too great.
[/quote]

Merrill took on the risks knowingly.  She was careful and didn't let fear deter her.  If we followed your advice we'd still be living in caves.  Research involves risk.

[quote]
[quote]
Nope.  You it bass ackwards.  It is ANDERS and both the circle mages and Templars that hav allowed their view of religion to pollute their views of demons and the fade/magic in general.  Blood magic is in fact just another source of magic albeit a dangerous one.  You do not need demons to learn blood magic, and in fact there is no such thing as a "good spirit" and allowing any spirit to possess you is...problematic.  Merrill understands this from a careful understanding of the ancient magics.  For that matter Morrigan understands this too (as you find out if you take her into the fade to help  Conner or in the circle).

Actually the circle has not really studied demons extensively.  In fact if you read William's journal (in Honnleth) you find that he complains that the Templars/Chantry forbid any real research and wonders how one can fight demons if one doesn't study them and understand them.  Most of the circle entries you cite are from chantry sources with the chantry putting their own spin on spirits and the fade.  In fact both Tevinter and the Dalish both know spirits and magic far better than the Circle ever does.

-Polaris[/quote]
Read these codex entries, all written by either templars or Senior Enchanters and tell me where their religious views are affecting their studies of demons. Studies that are, obviously, being conducted despite what William might say:
http://dragonage.wik...y:_Desire_Demon
http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Pride_Demon
http://dragonage.wik...ex_entry:_Shade
http://dragonage.wik...onic_Possession
http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Sloth_Demon

It was the Chantry and the Circle who actually managed to conduct these scientific observations so as to better classify the demons. They know a lot more about them than the Dalish who seem to think of them as a different "people" and compare them to humans or dwarves.
[/quote]

Actually the Fade morphs itself according to the will of the observer, and frankly all of those codex entries are from flawed sources and frankly are stamp collecting not true 'scientific research' (at best it's a beginning).  What the Tevinters did and what Wilhelm was attempting was true reserach and the Chantry for a thousand years has done it's best to shut that research down....even to the extent of lying about Adralla (who was a bloodmage and NOT a bard).

Of the existing sources of lore, I'd say Tevinter, followed by the Dalish and Rivanni wise woman are probably your best and most neutral sources for good information regarding the fade.

[quote]
Humans and dwarves are capable of more emotions than one, of striving towards more things than one, of having contradictory feelings. Spirits are capable of none of thse things.
I agree with Merril that all Spirits are dangerous but apart from that, she is dead wrong in her beliefs.
[/quote]

Actually Merrill is well aware of the nature of spirits and that they get fixed on one emotion.  When you first meet her on the way to Sundermount she even says as much (saying that a demon is what it is and intrisically is no different than a spirit of honor or joy....which ultimately is true).  As for Merrill's dismissal, she never does dismiss this.  You are mixing up two different conversations.  What Merill rejects is Anders Maker-centric explaination for why spirits are the way they are.  Merrill explains that she has her own stories and doesn't need his.  Anders presents the "Maker's first children" explaination of spirits as a fact when it's anything but a fact.

Given the two, I find Merrill a far more reliable and yes responsible mage than Anders especially when it comes with spirits.  Merrill at least understands that letting ANY spirit in is bad ju-ju which is something that both Anders and Wynne have difficulty grasping.  I think how DA2 (as opposed to DAO) characterised Merrill is borderline criminal and is just yet another way that IMHO Bioware is trying to slime those that disagree with the Chantry-centric PoV (and Anders in Legacy was another such attempt which I did not appreciate).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
You are ASSUMING what you want to believe and are trying to show.  That is bad logic and analysis.  My point stands.  At no time does Morrigan say ANYTHING about having to deal with the taint.

It was a five minutes conversation. The Warden didn't ask.

All of which Merrill begged the keeper for.  It is the keeper that is being closed minded about this, not Merrill.  As for being careful, who is it that takes the time to get a failsafe if negotiations with the demon go badly.  Who is it that carefully isolates the shard and shows it to very few people.  Yes, it's Merrill.  Merrill is doing the best she can with what she has.

She has nothing. She has no resource to accomplish this other than her own blood. And this is dangerous. Blood magic is, by itself, dangerous. Add a (possibly) Tainted Eluvian, the advices of a Pride Demon, and a paper thin Veil and it's a disaster waiting to happen. Go to the Circle, go to the Grey Wardens, go to Tevinter if you have to, anything!

Which means YOU DON"T KNOW.  You are leaping to the conclusion that the mirrors are inherently tainted even though the available evidence strongly suggests otherwise.

No, I am presenting the possibility that they are based on strong evidence that suggests it.

You are leaping to a connection and a conclusion that is not warrented by the evidence.

How is it not warranted by the evidence? I have explained my tought process in detail, now you do it.

Merrill worked on that shard for YEARS after cleansing it with no sign of taint.  Morrigan worked on her Elluvian for years with no sign of taint.  The Black City isn't the only place that is beyond the fade either.

Yes, it is. What others places have been mentioned that are beyond the Fade?

So again, you are leaping to conclusions because you want to believe that Merrill is the stupid villian when the facts suggest something very different.

No, the facts support my theory but I've yet to acusse Merril of being either stupid or a villain.
I don't like nor trust her but I am making my arguments thanks to information Merril would have little to no acess to.

Merrill took on the risks knowingly.  She was careful and didn't let fear deter her.  If we followed your advice we'd still be living in caves.  Research involves risk.

Research involves controlled risk. The scientists who first harnessed nuclear energy died of radiation poisoning but they didn't perform their tests in a garage in the middle of New York City.

Actually the Fade morphs itself according to the will of the observer, and frankly all of those codex entries are from flawed sources and frankly are stamp collecting not true 'scientific research' (at best it's a beginning).  What the Tevinters did and what Wilhelm was attempting was true reserach and the Chantry for a thousand years has done it's best to shut that research down....even to the extent of lying about Adralla (who was a bloodmage and NOT a bard).

Of the existing sources of lore, I'd say Tevinter, followed by the Dalish and Rivanni wise woman are probably your best and most neutral sources for good information regarding the fade.

So, basically, because you don't like Andrastianism, you can't accept when followers of the religion do something right. what Wilhelm did is no different than what that Rivaini Enchanter from the Desire Demon Codex Entry was doing.
I asked you to show me where religious dogma was negativelly affecting their research of the Fade, you couldn't or wouldn't do it. Now, I ask you to show me how these sources are flawed. Will you do it?

Andralla could have very well been both. Who's jumping to conclusions now?
She was not a blood mage tough, the codex is very specific on that point. She herself never used blood magic.

Actually Merrill is well aware of the nature of spirits and that they get fixed on one emotion.  When you first meet her on the way to Sundermount she even says as much (saying that a demon is what it is and intrisically is no different than a spirit of honor or joy....which ultimately is true).  As for Merrill's dismissal, she never does dismiss this.  You are mixing up two different conversations.  What Merill rejects is Anders Maker-centric explaination for why spirits are the way they are.  Merrill explains that she has her own stories and doesn't need his.  Anders presents the "Maker's first children" explaination of spirits as a fact when it's anything but a fact.

Given the two, I find Merrill a far more reliable and yes responsible mage than Anders especially when it comes with spirits.  Merrill at least understands that letting ANY spirit in is bad ju-ju which is something that both Anders and Wynne have difficulty grasping.  I think how DA2 (as opposed to DAO) characterised Merrill is borderline criminal and is just yet another way that IMHO Bioware is trying to slime those that disagree with the Chantry-centric PoV (and Anders in Legacy was another such attempt which I did not appreciate).

-Polaris

No, I am not, she dismisses the Chantry's separation of demons into different sins. Instead, she says spirits are different but only so much as Hawke and Isabella are different and that the Fade is no more foreign than Orzammar.
Which, of course, is ridiculous. Mortals and Spirits are tremendously different in their emotional range and their way of reacting to stimulus.

Honestly, I don't find neither Merril nor Anders to be particularly responsible mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 janvier 2013 - 12:17 .

[MisterJB]

Oh, and also Divine Justinia comissioned a study into the nature of the Rite of Tranquility that lead to a "cure". Except they did it in a remote location and with an entire group of researchers and templars just in case something happened.
And what Lamber opposed was not the study; in fact, he showed interest in the possibility of a Rite that severed only the magical talent, not the emotions; but rather the idea of "curing" Tranquils.
The Chantry is not opposed to study and knowledge.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 janvier 2013 - 12:30 .

[dragonflight288]

She has nothing. She has no resource to accomplish this other than her own blood. And this is dangerous. Blood magic is, by itself, dangerous. Add a (possibly) Tainted Eluvian, the advices of a Pride Demon, and a paper thin Veil and it's a disaster waiting to happen. Go to the Circle, go to the Grey Wardens, go to Tevinter if you have to, anything!

I would argue that blood magic by itself is not dangerous. I believe that blood magic, because it's so powerful a tool in the way it augments already existing powers, becomes easy to abuse, and it's ability to influence the minds of others makes it doubly more dangerous in the wrong hands, and must be kept an eye on, limited and illegal in most cases.

But it does make a perfect substitute when lyrium is in short supply, if the it's only being used to augment already existing magic, so long as the mage uses only their own blood and doesn't kill anyone else.

If you believe that blood magic is dangerous by itself, then you are in essence arguing against the templars using phylacteries, which is a form of blood magic.

Which means YOU DON"T KNOW. You are leaping to the conclusion that the mirrors are inherently tainted even though the available evidence strongly suggests otherwise.

No, I am presenting the possibility that they are based on strong evidence that suggests it.

Between the two of you, I think you're both being kind of dismissive towards each other, but let's look at ALL the evidence on the table, and maybe some you both overlooked.

History of the Eluvians, simple, factual knowledge, based on my limited understanding.

1. The eluvians were created by the ancient Arlathan elves.
2. After Arlathan fell, the Tevinter Imperium took them, and despite their extensive knowledge of blood magic, all they got out of them were fancy telephones, which they used for long range, speedy communications.
3. Duncan mistakenly believes them to be Tevinter artifacts, but does confirm that the Taint can focus in on them, and proceeds to destroy it for safety...a measure that doesn't actually work in the end.
4. Tamlen and Mahariel discover the eluvian, and Tamlen sees an underground city and something looking right at him, and he lost all ability to look away. An explosion of light separates Mahariel form Tamlen, and both are tainted. If we play the Dalish Origin, Tamlen is later discovered as a shriek.
5. Morrigan steals a book on eluvians from a dalish tribe and activates hers through great effort, turning it into a portal that led to a place beyond the Fade, and it was a place she felt safe enough to travel to keep her son as well as hide from Flemeth.
6. Through Finn, we learn that all eluvians are interconnected (although we could've pieced that together as they worked as communication devices.) Using the lights of Arlathan to break through the darkspawn taint, we can track Morrigan. Speaking of the darkspawn taint, despite Duncan breaking the eluvian, it still corrupts elves investigating the ruins, turning them into ghouls, therefore his safety measure of breaking the eluvians didn't work.
7. Merrill takes a piece of the shard from the broken eluvian, keeps it isolated and never gets tainted, having used blood magic to cleanse it of the taint.
8. Having studied lore extensively and extrapolating information from the shard, Merrill builds a new eluvian, but lacked the knowledge to activate it.

That's all the evidence that exists about eluvians to date. The tevinters used them as communication devices, they can attract darkspawn taint, Tamlen saw an underground city in a dark place, with something looking right at it (likely the Archdemon, but that's pure speculation on my part.)

Based on that evidence alone, I would say that Merrill is more in the right than Merethari, who refused to study eluvians at all, dismissing them as something their ancestors wanted abandoned.

Simply my opinion, but I see more evidence that eluvians are quite harmless than harmful.

Research involves controlled risk. The scientists who first harnessed nuclear energy died of radiation poisoning but they didn't perform their tests in a garage in the middle of New York City.

I believe Merrill saying going to the demon as a last resort, bringing the Champion of Kirkwall to kill her should things go amiss is controlled risk.

Merethari ran up and released a demon, allowing it to possess her without any precautions or warning to the clan she was leading. There is no control there at all.

So, basically, because you don't like Andrastianism, you can't accept when followers of the religion do something right. what Wilhelm did is no different than what that Rivaini Enchanter from the Desire Demon Codex Entry was doing.
I asked you to show me where religious dogma was negativelly affecting their research of the Fade, you couldn't or wouldn't do it. Now, I ask you to show me how these sources are flawed. Will you do it?

Andralla could have very well been both. Who's jumping to conclusions now?
She was not a blood mage tough, the codex is very specific on that point. She herself never used blood magic.

One doesn't need to like or dislike Andrastianism to recognize the Fade is ever changing according to the observer and the will of the demons/spirits who dwell there.

The codex entry on the Fade mentions that Tevinter tried to map the Fade once, only to find that every time they went there, the spirits and demons had altered it in cheap imitations of reality that they saw in dreamers.

The Fade is a realm of dreams. Everyone from Kings and Queens to peasants and templars go there to dream. Not just mages. Mages are separated from the others based on their ability to enter conscious. The only thing in the Fade that's real is the power of one's will. The rat, the demon, heck, maybe even a piece of furniture, may be a spirit or a demon in disguise.

Valor in the mage origin laments that non-mages must lead empty and hollow lives because they can't will things into being.

As for evidence that the Chantry and templars restrict study of demons and the Fade, why that can be found in the codex entry for the school of spirit. Wilhelm's journal also makes it clear that he can't study demons. Avernus comments that its men, not the Maker or the Chant of Light, that forbid true magical research.

(Don't take that as approval for how they did what they did, but more as acknowledgement that they may have a point.)

The School of Spirit is often mistaken for blood magic because that school specifically studies the fade, and the spirits who dwell there. A spirit-mage's connection to the Fade makes them overpowered tempalrs with their spells. But it's limited because it's almost inter-changable with blood magic, such as the summoning of the dead. The Spirit Healer codex says that spirit healers are the most useful mages because they're needed in times of peace and war, but are actually one of the most feared because they have such close connections to the Fade by dealigh with spirits of Faith.

No, I am not, she dismisses the Chantry's separation of demons into different sins. Instead, she says spirits are different but only so much as Hawke and Isabella are different and that the Fade is no more foreign than Orzammar.
Which, of course, is ridiculous. Mortals and Spirits are tremendously different in their emotional range and their way of reacting to stimulus.

I would respectfully disagree. Let's put it into another context.

A demons and spirits dwell in the Fade, and they can will whatever they wish into reality. Spirits and demons who get sundered from the Fade find themselves in a world where everything they have known, everything they may be used to, simply don't apply. Powerful demons may summon other demons, but a rage or hunger demon is stuck being angry at everything for no reason or hungering for everything without end, but unable to will something to fight or eat. They react rashly, latching on to the first things they can. Sylvans are possessed trees, shades are possessed dead, and plenty of other examples exist outside of mage abominations.

What separates spirits and demons is that demons are interested in the mortal world and want to experience it, while most benevolent spirits couldn't care less. Justice being an example. Not a demon, and panicked when he realized he wasn't in the Fade, but still tried to stay true to the ideal he wanted to live up to, that being Justice. He ended up a force of Vengeance, the darker side of Justice, and may have been considered a demon himself simply because of his new interest in the mortal world and bringing justice to all who had been wronged....particularly mages after his joining with Anders.

We have two example of two sloth demons, if you play the mage origin. One is the sloth demon in the Harrowing, and he could barely be bothered to aid the Warden, save for some amusing diversion, or the temptations of a meal and seeing the mortal world through the mages eyes, but barely mustered up the energy to do so. The Sloth demon in Broken Circle was FAR more active, using its powers to make US slothful and tired. The same kind of demon, but with far different personalities.

Say you have two mages in front of you, two rogues in front of you, and two warriors in front of you. You can get a good idea what to expect they can or can't do based on those descriptions alone. But you can't tell how they'll use their power/ability, or what they'll actually do. Shield/sword or two handed weapons for warrior? Primal power, healer, blood magic, shape-shifting mage? Is the rogue a very quick fighter or a thief and lockpick, with skill with a bow?

I think the difference between Audacity and the pride demon in Asunder (not the book, but the quest in the deep roads in Origins) are very different personalities. Audacity was sealed away, whereas the Pride Demon in the deep roads willingly allowed itself to be torn asunder as a convenient way to lay low, and pretty much told the Warden they could fight or get a reward. Audacity, based on the little information we have, didn't offer battle or reward, but relied more on deception and was far more subtle.

Same kinds of demons, completely different personalities.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Oh, and also Divine Justinia comissioned a study into the nature of the Rite of Tranquility that lead to a "cure". Except they did it in a remote location and with an entire group of researchers and templars just in case something happened.
And what Lamber opposed was not the study; in fact, he showed interest in the possibility of a Rite that severed only the magical talent, not the emotions; but rather the idea of "curing" Tranquils.
The Chantry is not opposed to study and knowledge.

Didn't Lambert try to destroy the research and any evidence it existed?

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Didn't Lambert try to destroy the research and any evidence it existed?

Yes but only because he deemed it pointless and risky. He sees no point in curing Tranquils, especially considering the side effects which include uncontrolable emotion which, of course, increase the danger of possession.
He was interested in the possibility of severing only magic, not emotions, through Tranquility but it was deemed impossible by Paramhond.

[IanPolaris]

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Oh, and also Divine Justinia comissioned a study into the nature of the Rite of Tranquility that lead to a "cure". Except they did it in a remote location and with an entire group of researchers and templars just in case something happened.
And what Lamber opposed was not the study; in fact, he showed interest in the possibility of a Rite that severed only the magical talent, not the emotions; but rather the idea of "curing" Tranquils.
The Chantry is not opposed to study and knowledge.

Didn't Lambert try to destroy the research and any evidence it existed?

Justina V was also an extremely contraversial and liberal Divine who lose support of most of the orthodox chantry, Lambert being just one example.  In fact Justina V was barely elected to the Divine at all.  So by and large what I said stands.  The Chantry HAS opposed research into the fade, spirit magic,and bloodmagic, and not only has magical research suffered but medicine as a whole has as well (because it was often confused with blood magic).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Didn't Lambert try to destroy the research and any evidence it existed?

Yes but only because he deemed it pointless and risky. He sees no point in curing Tranquils, especially considering the side effects which include uncontrolable emotion which, of course, increase the danger of possession.
He was interested in the possibility of severing only magic, not emotions, through Tranquility but it was deemed impossible by Paramhond.

Lambert was a throwback to the old inquisitors and wanted to either destroy mages or given that that wasn't realistic then completely control them.  Lambert wanted all mages to be tranquil.  Lambert was Meredith II without the idol.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Actually the first experiments done with controlled nuclear power weren't done in the heat of NYC. They were done in the Heart of Chicago. So much for your theory of 'controlled risk'.

-Polaris

[andy6915]

dragonflight288, one tiny little correction. Shades aren't possessed dead, they're spirits that have learned to draw negative emotions and lifeforce into themselves, and use the power they draw in to make create physical form for themselves. Not only that, they often don't even really realize they're in the real world and just assume they're in the fade and act as if that is the case.

The way the codex describes it, a shade is what happens when a demon or spirit can't find anything to possess and end up having to adept to the real world without a body to house them, and drawing in energy and emotions gives them enough power to create a body.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Lambert was a throwback to the old inquisitors and wanted to either destroy mages or given that that wasn't realistic then completely control them.  Lambert wanted all mages to be tranquil.  Lambert was Meredith II without the idol.

-Polaris

No, he didn't. There is absolutely nothing that suggests that. His plan is made quite explicit in the last chapters of the books. He fear a resurgence of Tevinter and believes the Circles should be stricter but not only there is no mention of Tranquility anywhere, he also does not Tranquilize a single mage in the whole book. And he clearly shows interest in a Rite of Tranquility that doesn't sever the mind of a mage.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually the first experiments done with controlled nuclear power weren't done in the heat of NYC. They were done in the Heart of Chicago. So much for your theory of 'controlled risk'.

-Polaris

In someone's garage in the nearest gettho, I'm sure.

[dragonflight288]

andy69156915 wrote...

dragonflight288, one tiny little correction. Shades aren't possessed dead, they're spirits that have learned to draw negative emotions and lifeforce into themselves, and use the power they draw in to make create physical form for themselves. Not only that, they often don't even really realize they're in the real world and just assume they're in the fade and act as if that is the case.

The way the codex describes it, a shade is what happens when a demon or spirit can't find anything to possess and end up having to adept to the real world without a body to house them, and drawing in energy and emotions gives them enough power to create a body.

So it is. Thanks for the correction.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Lambert was a throwback to the old inquisitors and wanted to either destroy mages or given that that wasn't realistic then completely control them.  Lambert wanted all mages to be tranquil.  Lambert was Meredith II without the idol.

-Polaris

No, he didn't. There is absolutely nothing that suggests that. His plan is made quite explicit in the last chapters of the books. He fear a resurgence of Tevinter and believes the Circles should be stricter but not only there is no mention of Tranquility anywhere, he also does not Tranquilize a single mage in the whole book. And he clearly shows interest in a Rite of Tranquility that doesn't sever the mind of a mage.

He simply goes against everything the Divine said, destroyed her credibility as a leader by ordering an attack on the mages at a perfectly legal meeting because he disagreed with Fiona calling for a vote of separation and he didn't trust the mages to treat Rhys in an unbiased manner...like they didn't trust him to treat Rhys in an unbiased manner either.

Lambert started the fighting, and ignored the Divine.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I would argue that blood magic by itself is not dangerous. I believe that blood magic, because it's so powerful a tool in the way it augments already existing powers, becomes easy to abuse, and it's ability to influence the minds of others makes it doubly more dangerous in the wrong hands, and must be kept an eye on, limited and illegal in most cases.

But it does make a perfect substitute when lyrium is in short supply, if the it's only being used to augment already existing magic, so long as the mage uses only their own blood and doesn't kill anyone else.

If you believe that blood magic is dangerous by itself, then you are in essence arguing against the templars using phylacteries, which is a form of blood magic.

A gun is dangerous by itself. It could fall on the ground and go off, for instance.
When we first see Merril use blood magic to dispel a barrier, she admits to have summoned a demon. Here, it helped Hawke&Co but what if it had overpowered Merril like Avernus is overpowered? Then there would be a demon on the loose in Thedas.
Of course, there must be some forms of blood magic that don't require a demon's aid altough Merril has proven willing to use them if need be.
I believe guns can be dangerous by themselves but I also still believe in their ability to protect people in the rigth hands.

Between the two of you, I think you're both being kind of dismissive towards each other, but let's look at ALL the evidence on the table, and maybe some you both overlooked.

History of the Eluvians, simple, factual knowledge, based on my limited understanding.

1. The eluvians were created by the ancient Arlathan elves.
2. After Arlathan fell, the Tevinter Imperium took them, and despite their extensive knowledge of blood magic, all they got out of them were fancy telephones, which they used for long range, speedy communications.
3. Duncan mistakenly believes them to be Tevinter artifacts, but does confirm that the Taint can focus in on them, and proceeds to destroy it for safety...a measure that doesn't actually work in the end.
4. Tamlen and Mahariel discover the eluvian, and Tamlen sees an underground city and something looking right at him, and he lost all ability to look away. An explosion of light separates Mahariel form Tamlen, and both are tainted. If we play the Dalish Origin, Tamlen is later discovered as a shriek.
5. Morrigan steals a book on eluvians from a dalish tribe and activates hers through great effort, turning it into a portal that led to a place beyond the Fade, and it was a place she felt safe enough to travel to keep her son as well as hide from Flemeth.
6. Through Finn, we learn that all eluvians are interconnected (although we could've pieced that together as they worked as communication devices.) Using the lights of Arlathan to break through the darkspawn taint, we can track Morrigan. Speaking of the darkspawn taint, despite Duncan breaking the eluvian, it still corrupts elves investigating the ruins, turning them into ghouls, therefore his safety measure of breaking the eluvians didn't work.
7. Merrill takes a piece of the shard from the broken eluvian, keeps it isolated and never gets tainted, having used blood magic to cleanse it of the taint.
8. Having studied lore extensively and extrapolating information from the shard, Merrill builds a new eluvian, but lacked the knowledge to activate it.

That's all the evidence that exists about eluvians to date. The tevinters used them as communication devices, they can attract darkspawn taint, Tamlen saw an underground city in a dark place, with something looking right at it (likely the Archdemon, but that's pure speculation on my part.)

Based on that evidence alone, I would say that Merrill is more in the right than Merethari, who refused to study eluvians at all, dismissing them as something their ancestors wanted abandoned.

Simply my opinion, but I see more evidence that eluvians are quite harmless than harmful.

9-According to Morrigan, the Eluvians lead to a place beyond Thedas and the Fade.

What is the one location that is said to be unreachable from both Thedas and the Fade? The Black City which we also know for a fact was breached by Corypheus and his four piglets which lead to them becoming Tainted. And Tamlen saw a city through the Eluvian.
So, now there are three things connecting the very heart of the Taint to the Eluvians.

And, as I said, I'm not opposed to studying Eluvians. In a remote fortress with a strong Veil, with several Senior Enchanters, Templars and Grey Wardens all involved just in case something happens

I believe Merrill saying going to the demon as a last resort, bringing the Champion of Kirkwall to kill her should things go amiss is controlled risk.

Merethari ran up and released a demon, allowing it to possess her without any precautions or warning to the clan she was leading. There is no control there at all.

I'm not supporting Merethari's actions, only opposing Merril's.

One doesn't need to like or dislike Andrastianism to recognize the Fade is ever changing according to the observer and the will of the demons/spirits who dwell there.

The codex entry on the Fade mentions that Tevinter tried to map the Fade once, only to find that every time they went there, the spirits and demons had altered it in cheap imitations of reality that they saw in dreamers.

The Fade is a realm of dreams. Everyone from Kings and Queens to peasants and templars go there to dream. Not just mages. Mages are separated from the others based on their ability to enter conscious. The only thing in the Fade that's real is the power of one's will. The rat, the demon, heck, maybe even a piece of furniture, may be a spirit or a demon in disguise.

Valor in the mage origin laments that non-mages must lead empty and hollow lives because they can't will things into being.

The Fade is ever changing. The nature of Spirits themselves is not.

As for evidence that the Chantry and templars restrict study of demons and the Fade, why that can be found in the codex entry for the school of spirit. Wilhelm's journal also makes it clear that he can't study demons. Avernus comments that its men, not the Maker or the Chant of Light, that forbid true magical research.

(Don't take that as approval for how they did what they did, but more as acknowledgement that they may have a point.)

I've posted several codex entries of situations where the Chantry and Circle clearly studied the Fade and demons regardless of what Whilelm and Avernus might say. In fact, the codex entry on Desire Demons paints a situation quite similar to what Whilhem did.
The codex entry on the School of Spirit mentions that its users are feared and often misunderstood, not that research is hampered.

I would respectfully disagree. Let's put it into another context.

A demons and spirits dwell in the Fade, and they can will whatever they wish into reality. Spirits and demons who get sundered from the Fade find themselves in a world where everything they have known, everything they may be used to, simply don't apply. Powerful demons may summon other demons, but a rage or hunger demon is stuck being angry at everything for no reason or hungering for everything without end, but unable to will something to fight or eat. They react rashly, latching on to the first things they can. Sylvans are possessed trees, shades are possessed dead, and plenty of other examples exist outside of mage abominations.

What separates spirits and demons is that demons are interested in the mortal world and want to experience it, while most benevolent spirits couldn't care less. Justice being an example. Not a demon, and panicked when he realized he wasn't in the Fade, but still tried to stay true to the ideal he wanted to live up to, that being Justice. He ended up a force of Vengeance, the darker side of Justice, and may have been considered a demon himself simply because of his new interest in the mortal world and bringing justice to all who had been wronged....particularly mages after his joining with Anders.

We have two example of two sloth demons, if you play the mage origin. One is the sloth demon in the Harrowing, and he could barely be bothered to aid the Warden, save for some amusing diversion, or the temptations of a meal and seeing the mortal world through the mages eyes, but barely mustered up the energy to do so. The Sloth demon in Broken Circle was FAR more active, using its powers to make US slothful and tired. The same kind of demon, but with far different personalities.

Say you have two mages in front of you, two rogues in front of you, and two warriors in front of you. You can get a good idea what to expect they can or can't do based on those descriptions alone. But you can't tell how they'll use their power/ability, or what they'll actually do. Shield/sword or two handed weapons for warrior? Primal power, healer, blood magic, shape-shifting mage? Is the rogue a very quick fighter or a thief and lockpick, with skill with a bow?

I think the difference between Audacity and the pride demon in Asunder (not the book, but the quest in the deep roads in Origins) are very different personalities. Audacity was sealed away, whereas the Pride Demon in the deep roads willingly allowed itself to be torn asunder as a convenient way to lay low, and pretty much told the Warden they could fight or get a reward. Audacity, based on the little information we have, didn't offer battle or reward, but relied more on deception and was far more subtle.

Same kinds of demons, completely different personalities.

Ah, but you see, while the method through which they act might differ somewhat; altough not always, a desire demon will almost always seduce someone with his deepest desires; spirits act in pursuit of a singular goal that can never change. A spirit of Justice, for instance, is incapable of questioning itself. A human being might contemplate the necessity of the Circle, might wonder whether its methods are truly just, might ponder on the repercusions of destroying the Chantry and the suffering it will bring to the world. Justice can't, it focus only on the injustice of the system itself and nothing else.
Who says justice can say pride or faith or desire. Human beings can feel all of these emotions at once, the pursuit of justice can be hampered by desire and vice-versa.

Since spirits lack the capacity for having more than a virtue or vice their strive to, they can be distinguished by the one they represent. Thus we have Rage and Pride demons and Justice and Faith Spirits.
It might be naive to apellidate one of good and others of bad; in that I agree with Merril, ALL spirits are dangerous; but this is still an analysis based on logic, not religious dogma.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
He simply goes against everything the Divine said, destroyed her credibility as a leader by ordering an attack on the mages at a perfectly legal meeting because he disagreed with Fiona calling for a vote of separation and he didn't trust the mages to treat Rhys in an unbiased manner...like they didn't trust him to treat Rhys in an unbiased manner either.

Lambert started the fighting, and ignored the Divine.

True but Fiona also ignored the Divine when she called for a vote of separation. That meeting was called to discuss Pharamond's research, nothing else.
And none of that makes him Meredith 2.0. Nevermind that Meredith didn't want to Tranquilize all mages in the first place.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 janvier 2013 - 02:01 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually the first experiments done with controlled nuclear power weren't done in the heat of NYC. They were done in the Heart of Chicago. So much for your theory of 'controlled risk'.

-Polaris

In someone's garage in the nearest gettho, I'm sure.

Actually that is not far from the truth.  The first nuclear power experiments were done in an old football field.  Look it up.  The safety precautions were virtually nil.

I also note that the first experiments by the Curies regarding polonium and radiation actually WERE done in a basement lab of a residential house.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
He simply goes against everything the Divine said, destroyed her credibility as a leader by ordering an attack on the mages at a perfectly legal meeting because he disagreed with Fiona calling for a vote of separation and he didn't trust the mages to treat Rhys in an unbiased manner...like they didn't trust him to treat Rhys in an unbiased manner either.

Lambert started the fighting, and ignored the Divine.

True but Fiona also ignored the Divine when she called for a vote of separation. That meeting was called to discuss Pharamond's research, nothing else.
And none of that makes him Meredith 2.0. Nevermind that Meredith didn't want to Tranquilize all mages in the first place.

Fiona did not abrogate power that wasn't hers.  While the meeting wasn't called to discuss amancipation, it was within Fiona's legal rights as Grand Enchanter to put that on the agenda.  As for Meredith not wanting to tranquilize all mages....no she just wanted to kill them all.  At the end of act three, she almost gets (sexually) off by the notion of killing every mage in Kirkwall.  You can hear it in the voice.  Lambert is no different.  He looks for any excuse to subjegate mages driven by his fear perhaps, but that very much makes him Meredith II.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Lambert by contrast DID take power that wasn't his and did so in order to overthrow a system he made an oath to because he didn't personally like the results.  That very much makes him a Meredith II type as well.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 30 janvier 2013 - 02:28 .