546 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
I would argue that blood magic by itself is not dangerous. I believe that blood magic, because it's so powerful a tool in the way it augments already existing powers, becomes easy to abuse, and it's ability to influence the minds of others makes it doubly more dangerous in the wrong hands, and must be kept an eye on, limited and illegal in most cases.

But it does make a perfect substitute when lyrium is in short supply, if the it's only being used to augment already existing magic, so long as the mage uses only their own blood and doesn't kill anyone else.

If you believe that blood magic is dangerous by itself, then you are in essence arguing against the templars using phylacteries, which is a form of blood magic.[/quote]
A gun is dangerous by itself. It could fall on the ground and go off, for instance.
When we first see Merril use blood magic to dispel a barrier, she admits to have summoned a demon. Here, it helped Hawke&Co but what if it had overpowered Merril like Avernus is overpowered? Then there would be a demon on the loose in Thedas.
Of course, there must be some forms of blood magic that don't require a demon's aid altough Merril has proven willing to use them if need be.
I believe guns can be dangerous by themselves but I also still believe in their ability to protect people in the rigth hands.
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Yes but that does not mean you have to use a demon's power to use bloodmagic nor do you have to "say yes" to a demon to learn bloodmagic.  In this Anders is absolutely wrong and by extension so is the circle and chantry.

Learning it from a demon is the easiest way but not the only way.

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Between the two of you, I think you're both being kind of dismissive towards each other, but let's look at ALL the evidence on the table, and maybe some you both overlooked.

History of the Eluvians, simple, factual knowledge, based on my limited understanding.

1. The eluvians were created by the ancient Arlathan elves.
2. After Arlathan fell, the Tevinter Imperium took them, and despite their extensive knowledge of blood magic, all they got out of them were fancy telephones, which they used for long range, speedy communications.
3. Duncan mistakenly believes them to be Tevinter artifacts, but does confirm that the Taint can focus in on them, and proceeds to destroy it for safety...a measure that doesn't actually work in the end.
4. Tamlen and Mahariel discover the eluvian, and Tamlen sees an underground city and something looking right at him, and he lost all ability to look away. An explosion of light separates Mahariel form Tamlen, and both are tainted. If we play the Dalish Origin, Tamlen is later discovered as a shriek.
5. Morrigan steals a book on eluvians from a dalish tribe and activates hers through great effort, turning it into a portal that led to a place beyond the Fade, and it was a place she felt safe enough to travel to keep her son as well as hide from Flemeth.
6. Through Finn, we learn that all eluvians are interconnected (although we could've pieced that together as they worked as communication devices.) Using the lights of Arlathan to break through the darkspawn taint, we can track Morrigan. Speaking of the darkspawn taint, despite Duncan breaking the eluvian, it still corrupts elves investigating the ruins, turning them into ghouls, therefore his safety measure of breaking the eluvians didn't work.
7. Merrill takes a piece of the shard from the broken eluvian, keeps it isolated and never gets tainted, having used blood magic to cleanse it of the taint.
8. Having studied lore extensively and extrapolating information from the shard, Merrill builds a new eluvian, but lacked the knowledge to activate it.

That's all the evidence that exists about eluvians to date. The tevinters used them as communication devices, they can attract darkspawn taint, Tamlen saw an underground city in a dark place, with something looking right at it (likely the Archdemon, but that's pure speculation on my part.)

Based on that evidence alone, I would say that Merrill is more in the right than Merethari, who refused to study eluvians at all, dismissing them as something their ancestors wanted abandoned.

Simply my opinion, but I see more evidence that eluvians are quite harmless than harmful. [/quote]
9-According to Morrigan, the Eluvians lead to a place beyond Thedas and the Fade.

What is the one location that is said to be unreachable from both Thedas and the Fade? The Black City which we also know for a fact was breached by Corypheus and his four piglets which lead to them becoming Tainted. And Tamlen saw a city through the Eluvian.
So, now there are three things connecting the very heart of the Taint to the Eluvians.

And, as I said, I'm not opposed to studying Eluvians. In a remote fortress with a strong Veil, with several Senior Enchanters, Templars and Grey Wardens all involved just in case something happens
[/quote]

Again you are assuming facts not in evidence and using that to condemn Merrill.  The black city is NOT the only place beyond the fade.  It's the only place that has drawn significant discussion is all.  There are a number of allusions to various realms beyond the fade but the spirits know as little of them as mortals do.

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I believe Merrill saying going to the demon as a last resort, bringing the Champion of Kirkwall to kill her should things go amiss is controlled risk.

Merethari ran up and released a demon, allowing it to possess her without any precautions or warning to the clan she was leading. There is no control there at all. [/quote]
I'm not supporting Merethari's actions, only opposing Merril's.
[/quote]

By opposing Merrill you ARE supporting Merethari's actions.  That was how this sub-thread got started.


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One doesn't need to like or dislike Andrastianism to recognize the Fade is ever changing according to the observer and the will of the demons/spirits who dwell there.

The codex entry on the Fade mentions that Tevinter tried to map the Fade once, only to find that every time they went there, the spirits and demons had altered it in cheap imitations of reality that they saw in dreamers.

The Fade is a realm of dreams. Everyone from Kings and Queens to peasants and templars go there to dream. Not just mages. Mages are separated from the others based on their ability to enter conscious. The only thing in the Fade that's real is the power of one's will. The rat, the demon, heck, maybe even a piece of furniture, may be a spirit or a demon in disguise.

Valor in the mage origin laments that non-mages must lead empty and hollow lives because they can't will things into being. [/quote]
The Fade is ever changing. The nature of Spirits themselves is not.
[/quote]

Utterly false.  Spirits can and do change including their nature.  We see that explicity with Justice become a demon of Rage (Vengeance).  There are other examples.  In fact if spirits couldn't change their natures they wouldn't have been able to find and fixate on human emotions to start with.

[quote]
[quote]As for evidence that the Chantry and templars restrict study of demons and the Fade, why that can be found in the codex entry for the school of spirit. Wilhelm's journal also makes it clear that he can't study demons. Avernus comments that its men, not the Maker or the Chant of Light, that forbid true magical research.

(Don't take that as approval for how they did what they did, but more as acknowledgement that they may have a point.)[/quote]
I've posted several codex entries of situations where the Chantry and Circle clearly studied the Fade and demons regardless of what Whilelm and Avernus might say. In fact, the codex entry on Desire Demons paints a situation quite similar to what Whilhem did.
The codex entry on the School of Spirit mentions that its users are feared and often misunderstood, not that research is hampered.
[/quote]

No.  You gave several quotes that involved the circle/chantry doing what amounts to "stamp collecting" which is of dubious value of a place as malleable as the fade.

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[quote]
I would respectfully disagree. Let's put it into another context.

A demons and spirits dwell in the Fade, and they can will whatever they wish into reality. Spirits and demons who get sundered from the Fade find themselves in a world where everything they have known, everything they may be used to, simply don't apply. Powerful demons may summon other demons, but a rage or hunger demon is stuck being angry at everything for no reason or hungering for everything without end, but unable to will something to fight or eat. They react rashly, latching on to the first things they can. Sylvans are possessed trees, shades are possessed dead, and plenty of other examples exist outside of mage abominations.

What separates spirits and demons is that demons are interested in the mortal world and want to experience it, while most benevolent spirits couldn't care less. Justice being an example. Not a demon, and panicked when he realized he wasn't in the Fade, but still tried to stay true to the ideal he wanted to live up to, that being Justice. He ended up a force of Vengeance, the darker side of Justice, and may have been considered a demon himself simply because of his new interest in the mortal world and bringing justice to all who had been wronged....particularly mages after his joining with Anders.

We have two example of two sloth demons, if you play the mage origin. One is the sloth demon in the Harrowing, and he could barely be bothered to aid the Warden, save for some amusing diversion, or the temptations of a meal and seeing the mortal world through the mages eyes, but barely mustered up the energy to do so. The Sloth demon in Broken Circle was FAR more active, using its powers to make US slothful and tired. The same kind of demon, but with far different personalities.

Say you have two mages in front of you, two rogues in front of you, and two warriors in front of you. You can get a good idea what to expect they can or can't do based on those descriptions alone. But you can't tell how they'll use their power/ability, or what they'll actually do. Shield/sword or two handed weapons for warrior? Primal power, healer, blood magic, shape-shifting mage? Is the rogue a very quick fighter or a thief and lockpick, with skill with a bow?

I think the difference between Audacity and the pride demon in Asunder (not the book, but the quest in the deep roads in Origins) are very different personalities. Audacity was sealed away, whereas the Pride Demon in the deep roads willingly allowed itself to be torn asunder as a convenient way to lay low, and pretty much told the Warden they could fight or get a reward. Audacity, based on the little information we have, didn't offer battle or reward, but relied more on deception and was far more subtle.

Same kinds of demons, completely different personalities. [/quote]

Ah, but you see, while the method through which they act might differ somewhat; altough not always, a desire demon will almost always seduce someone with his deepest desires; spirits act in pursuit of a singular goal that can never change. A spirit of Justice, for instance, is incapable of questioning itself. A human being might contemplate the necessity of the Circle, might wonder whether its methods are truly just, might ponder on the repercusions of destroying the Chantry and the suffering it will bring to the world. Justice can't, it focus only on the injustice of the system itself and nothing else.
[/quote]

But different Justice spirits might focus on competely different aspects of Justice and thus be completely different.    For that matter you assume that the emotion a spirit identifies with is pure and clearly identifiable and I would say (especially with pride) that often is not the case.  In a place like the fade you risk seeing what you want to see, and the Chantry doesn't seem to understand this.

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Who says justice can say pride or faith or desire. Human beings can feel all of these emotions at once, the pursuit of justice can be hampered by desire and vice-versa.
[/quote]

Who says Justice can't feel Anger?  He clearly does.  The spirits aren't as pure and as understood as you think they are which argues for Merrill's view more than Anders (or the Andrastian view).  Spirits may not be as complex as people, but it's a mistake to think they are as simple as you make them out.

[quote]
Since spirits lack the capacity for having more than a virtue or vice their strive to, they can be distinguished by the one they represent. Thus we have Rage and Pride demons and Justice and Faith Spirits.
It might be naive to apellidate one of good and others of bad; in that I agree with Merril, ALL spirits are dangerous; but this is still an analysis based on logic, not religious dogma.

[/quote]

Facts not in evidence.  In fact we see spirits that have more than one emotion at a time (esp Pride Demons) although admittedly their favored emotion is by far their strongest.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

A gun is dangerous by itself. It could fall on the ground and go off, for instance.
When we first see Merril use blood magic to dispel a barrier, she admits to have summoned a demon. Here, it helped Hawke&Co but what if it had overpowered Merril like Avernus is overpowered? Then there would be a demon on the loose in Thedas.
Of course, there must be some forms of blood magic that don't require a demon's aid altough Merril has proven willing to use them if need be.
I believe guns can be dangerous by themselves but I also still believe in their ability to protect people in the rigth hands.

And there are mass shootings killing dozens of people when in the wrong hands. It's not magic or guns that determine the danger, but the ones wielding them.

Guns may fall and go off, but if the owner is smart and safe, it'll be in a gun-safe and not loaded.

But I digress...this is not the time or place to discuss guns.

9-According to Morrigan, the Eluvians lead to a place beyond Thedas and the Fade.

What is the one location that is said to be unreachable from both Thedas and the Fade? The Black City which we also know for a fact was breached by Corypheus and his four piglets which lead to them becoming Tainted. And Tamlen saw a city through the Eluvian.
So, now there are three things connecting the very heart of the Taint to the Eluvians.

And, as I said, I'm not opposed to studying Eluvians. In a remote fortress with a strong Veil, with several Senior Enchanters, Templars and Grey Wardens all involved just in case something happens

Thanks for adding what Morrigan said, I remembered it but overlooked it in writing the points.

To the first, the Black City isn't beyond the Fade. Corypheus went into the Fade and became an awakened darkspawn. He never went beyond it. The Black City is in the Fade itself. We see it every time in the distance and through the twisted structures. We simply can't get to it.

Not exactly proof that it's beyond the Fade at all.

And you won't find a strong fortress with a strong veil. Mages gathered together naturally weaken the veil. Gaider said that thinner veils make using magic easier, but when it becomes thin enough, possessions happen more frequently as well. I agree that ideally eluvians should be studied by a group of experienced mages, but seeing as most people don't care about elves or their history, and Merethari was too scared to actually do anything, that leaves Finn, Morrigan and Merrill. I'll get to them later.

The Fade is ever changing. The nature of Spirits themselves is not.

Justice becoming Vengeance is proof that statement is not true.

I'm not supporting Merethari's actions, only opposing Merril's.

And such is your opinion. I personally feel she's the most trusted to handle eluvians altogether. Finn is scared of getting his hands dirty, and while I like Morrigan, I don't trust her either.

I've posted several codex entries of situations where the Chantry and Circle clearly studied the Fade and demons regardless of what Whilelm and Avernus might say. In fact, the codex entry on Desire Demons paints a situation quite similar to what Whilhem did.
The codex entry on the School of Spirit mentions that its users are feared and often misunderstood, not that research is hampered.

Based on what I know on templars, anything they fear, they subdue and eliminate. They can't even admit Adralla was a magister who studied blood magic, and call her a bard. They refuse to admit that their templar abilities are actually magic. While their abilities only work on mages, so too do most of the spells in the school of spirit. They are using magic in a weaker form, but they don't call it that. They blur the lines between apostate and maleficar, so people think they are one and the same, and that isn't true. They say using blood as a component and not a source qualifies as blood magic (Finn and the Lights of Arlathan) but use blood as a component in their phylacteries.

Templars and the Chantry do subdue and oppress exactly what they fear and cannot use.

Ah, but you see, while the method through which they act might differ somewhat; altough not always, a desire demon will almost always seduce someone with his deepest desires; spirits act in pursuit of a singular goal that can never change. A spirit of Justice, for instance, is incapable of questioning itself. A human being might contemplate the necessity of the Circle, might wonder whether its methods are truly just, might ponder on the repercusions of destroying the Chantry and the suffering it will bring to the world. Justice can't, it focus only on the injustice of the system itself and nothing else.
Who says justice can say pride or faith or desire. Human beings can feel all of these emotions at once, the pursuit of justice can be hampered by desire and vice-versa.

In Awakening, Justice begins to question how much merit the mortal world has to offer, and finds himself envious of what mortals have that he and other spirits lack. He questions his nature in debate with Nathanial about whether forcibly possessing a mage or entering a mage with the mages consent would make him a demon.

And he changes and becomes a spirit of vengeance after possessing Anders.

If it's possible for a spirit of a virtue to become a spirit of vice, would it not also become possible for the spirit of a vice to become a spirit of a virtue?

The fact that we are asking these questions without any real answer only shows us how little we actually know. The rest is simply speculation and theories. Believable and supported by facts and events, but actual knowledge is limited.

True but Fiona also ignored the Divine when she called for a vote of separation. That meeting was called to discuss Pharamond's research, nothing else.
And none of that makes him Meredith 2.0. Nevermind that Meredith didn't want to Tranquilize all mages in the first place.

The constant similarity between Lambert and Meredth is that their fear and paranoia led them to extreme actions, and those extreme actions turned their fear and paranoia into self-fulfilling prophecies. As for tranquilizing mages? I've never said Meredith or Lambert wanted that. But neither one was ever once willing to consider the possibility that mages may not be as dangerous as the Chantry teaches, as most simply wish to live their lives.

Will the mages become a Tevinter 2.0? I have no doubt that some Resolutionists and Libertarians will push for it. Will they be better off because they grew up in a different culture entirely and create a better society? I'm positive that Loyalists and Isolationists will push for that.

Lucrosions will simply look for profit no matter the form.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Fiona did not abrogate power that wasn't hers.  While the meeting wasn't called to discuss amancipation, it was within Fiona's legal rights as Grand Enchanter to put that on the agenda. 

And where is it stated the Grant Enchanter can discuss whatever she pleases with the mages in a conclave organized by the Divine to deal with an entirely different issue?

As for Meredith not wanting to tranquilize all mages....no she just wanted to kill them all.  At the end of act three, she almost gets (sexually) off by the notion of killing every mage in Kirkwall.  You can hear it in the voice.

...sure, why not? I certainly have no intention of arguing the sexual tones of Meredith's voice.

Lambert is no different.  He looks for any excuse to subjegate mages driven by his fear perhaps, but that very much makes him Meredith II.

First, there is nothing wrong with controlling people with such potential for destruction as the mages which is what Lambert wants.
Second, he does not look for excuses. He is reacting to a growing threat; perhaps not in the most optimal manner; but he is not activelly searching for one.
There is news of a "cure" to Tranquility, he wishes to see it destroyed because of the outrage it will cause. He finds compelling evidence Rhys has been killing on behalf of a demo and acts towards aprehending him.
Unlike Meredith who looked for evidence to sustain her theories, Lambert creates theories with basis on existing evidence. And he turns out to be right. Coles was a demon who controlled Rhys through blood magic and forced him to kill the mages in the White Spire.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 janvier 2013 - 02:35 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually that is not far from the truth.  The first nuclear power experiments were done in an old football field.  Look it up.  The safety precautions were virtually nil.

I also note that the first experiments by the Curies regarding polonium and radiation actually WERE done in a basement lab of a residential house.

-Polaris

Altough I seriously doubt things were as reckless as you want to make them sound like, none of this diminishs the value of safety measures when experimenting with dangerous objects.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Fiona did not abrogate power that wasn't hers.  While the meeting wasn't called to discuss amancipation, it was within Fiona's legal rights as Grand Enchanter to put that on the agenda. 

And where is it stated the Grant Enchanter can discuss whatever she pleases with the mages in a conclave organized by the Divine to deal with an entirely different issue?

She is the Chair of the Circle of First Enchanters.  If she can get a second, she has the power to include add anything to the agenda assuming that the Conclave of Enchanters uses anything like normal parliamentary procedures.  The POINT is that Fiona lawfully introduced the motion and it was LAWFULLY PASSED.  What Lambert did was nothing less than outright treason and a violation of his own oaths.

As for Meredith not wanting to tranquilize all mages....no she just wanted to kill them all.  At the end of act three, she almost gets (sexually) off by the notion of killing every mage in Kirkwall.  You can hear it in the voice.

...sure, why not? I certainly have no intention of arguing the sexual tones of Meredith's voice.

Good because you would lose that argument.  Look at the scene again.  Meredith is eager to slaughter mages...so much she can barely contain her glee.  It disturbs even Knight Captain Cullen who is no softie.

Lambert is no different.  He looks for any excuse to subjegate mages driven by his fear perhaps, but that very much makes him Meredith II.

First, there is nothing wrong with controlling people with such potential for destruction as the mages which is what Lambert wants.
Second, he does not look for excuses. He is reacting to a growing threat; perhaps not in the most optimal manner; but he is not activelly searching for one.
There is news of a "cure" to Tranquility, he wishes to see it destroyed because of the outrage it will cause. He finds compelling evidence Rhys has been killing on behalf of a demo and acts towards aprehending him.
Unlike Meredith who looked for evidence to sustain her theories, Lambert creates theories with basis on existing evidence. And he turns out to be right. Coles was a demon who controlled Rhys through blood magic and forced him to kill the mages in the White Spire.

He is advocating murder and a cover up against the wishes of his own superior and then starts a mass revolt when he doesn't get his way.  How is he not like Meredith II?

-Poalris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually that is not far from the truth.  The first nuclear power experiments were done in an old football field.  Look it up.  The safety precautions were virtually nil.

I also note that the first experiments by the Curies regarding polonium and radiation actually WERE done in a basement lab of a residential house.

-Polaris

Altough I seriously doubt things were as reckless as you want to make them sound like, none of this diminishs the value of safety measures when experimenting with dangerous objects.

You would be wrong.  The Curies both died of radiation poisoning due to their own experiments, and the first nuclear power plant was built on a public football stadium.

Sure some safety precautions are taken but by and large research involves risk and everyone involved knows that.  Merill takes as many precautions as she can.  It's Meretheri's fault she can't take more.

In short, yes, many of the early scientists are just as reckless as I have protrayed them.  In fact I have understated the case .

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
She is the Chair of the Circle of First Enchanters.  If she can get a second, she has the power to include add anything to the agenda assuming that the Conclave of Enchanters uses anything like normal parliamentary procedures.  The POINT is that Fiona lawfully introduced the motion and it was LAWFULLY PASSED.  What Lambert did was nothing less than outright treason and a violation of his own oaths.

There is no reason to believe the Conclave of Enchanters uses anything like normal parliamentary procedures never mind that those vary from country to country thus, there is no reason to believe that the potion was lawfully introduced.
And even if it was, I doubt the Chantry predicted a motion to secede from it when it allowed the mages to elect representatives. It's not acceptable.

Good because you would lose that argument.

No, I wouldn't.

He is advocating murder and a cover up against the wishes of his own superior and then starts a mass revolt when he doesn't get his way.  How is he not like Meredith II?

-Poalris

Murder and acting against the wishes of one's superior are not the sole determining factor when comparing people.
I mentioned an important difference such as Meredith searching for evidence to fit her theories while Lambert creates theories based on already existing evidence.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Thanks for adding what Morrigan said, I remembered it but overlooked it in writing the points.

To the first, the Black City isn't beyond the Fade. Corypheus went into the Fade and became an awakened darkspawn. He never went beyond it. The Black City is in the Fade itself. We see it every time in the distance and through the twisted structures. We simply can't get to it.

Not exactly proof that it's beyond the Fade at all.

In the ever changing Fade, the Black City is the one static place, the one place unreachable regardless of how much you try. That suggests it is beyond the Fade.

And you won't find a strong fortress with a strong veil. Mages gathered together naturally weaken the veil. Gaider said that thinner veils make using magic easier, but when it becomes thin enough, possessions happen more frequently as well. I agree that ideally eluvians should be studied by a group of experienced mages, but seeing as most people don't care about elves or their history, and Merethari was too scared to actually do anything, that leaves Finn, Morrigan and Merrill. I'll get to them later.

Veil as thin as Kirkwall's doesn't happen naturally, we know it is the product of direct intent by the magisters.
Also, while people don't care about elven story, they would care about the practical application of the Eluvians. If nothing else, she could go to Tevinter. It would be dangerous but no more than messing with it by herself.

Justice becoming Vengeance is proof that statement is not true.

Not at all. Justice became Vengeance by focusing on the darker aspects of the emotion he represented.
He was still, however, bound by the rule of "one spirit-one emotion", he still wasn't as complex as Anders, for instance, who constantly questioned their "calling" while all Vengeance could see was Black and White. That is not changeable.

Based on what I know on templars, anything they fear, they subdue and eliminate. They can't even admit Adralla was a magister who studied blood magic, and call her a bard. They refuse to admit that their templar abilities are actually magic. While their abilities only work on mages, so too do most of the spells in the school of spirit. They are using magic in a weaker form, but they don't call it that. They blur the lines between apostate and maleficar, so people think they are one and the same, and that isn't true. They say using blood as a component and not a source qualifies as blood magic (Finn and the Lights of Arlathan) but use blood as a component in their phylacteries.

Templars and the Chantry do subdue and oppress exactly what they fear and cannot use.

And yet magic is still studied and used, so is the Spirit School. Even blood magic itself is used such as with phylacteries.
The Chantry attempts to control that which it has good reason to fear but it is not entirely against its study and practical use.

In Awakening, Justice begins to question how much merit the mortal world has to offer, and finds himself envious of what mortals have that he and other spirits lack. He questions his nature in debate with Nathanial about whether forcibly possessing a mage or entering a mage with the mages consent would make him a demon.

And he changes and becomes a spirit of vengeance after possessing Anders.

If it's possible for a spirit of a virtue to become a spirit of vice, would it not also become possible for the spirit of a vice to become a spirit of a virtue?

But Justice didn't go from a spirt of virtue to that of vice. He simply focused on a darker aspect of the emotion he represented, he still was very much all about "justice".
He may have felt some envy and desire upon entering the mortal world but this was still meaningless when compared to his pursuit of justice. Denizens of the Fade are, ultimately, simple creatures, focused on one emotion they strive to represent, altough some have complex manners in which they might act to achieve it.

The constant similarity between Lambert and Meredth is that their fear and paranoia led them to extreme actions, and those extreme actions turned their fear and paranoia into self-fulfilling prophecies. As for tranquilizing mages? I've never said Meredith or Lambert wanted that. But neither one was ever once willing to consider the possibility that mages may not be as dangerous as the Chantry teaches, as most simply wish to live their lives.

Will the mages become a Tevinter 2.0? I have no doubt that some Resolutionists and Libertarians will push for it. Will they be better off because they grew up in a different culture entirely and create a better society? I'm positive that Loyalists and Isolationists will push for that.

Lucrosions will simply look for profit no matter the form.

Lambert is not paranoid like Meredith. He fears mages but for good reasons.
And, as you know, I think mages are every bit as dangerous as the Chantry claims. More, in fact.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
She is the Chair of the Circle of First Enchanters.  If she can get a second, she has the power to include add anything to the agenda assuming that the Conclave of Enchanters uses anything like normal parliamentary procedures.  The POINT is that Fiona lawfully introduced the motion and it was LAWFULLY PASSED.  What Lambert did was nothing less than outright treason and a violation of his own oaths.

There is no reason to believe the Conclave of Enchanters uses anything like normal parliamentary procedures never mind that those vary from country to country thus, there is no reason to believe that the potion was lawfully introduced.
And even if it was, I doubt the Chantry predicted a motion to secede from it when it allowed the mages to elect representatives. It's not acceptable.

The chantry can blow it up it's posterior.  The Grand Enchantry by all the evidence before has had the legal right to bring the motion before the Enchanters and it PASSED by a democratic vote.  If the Chantry felt that they would lose such a vote, they should never have called the college and they should never have provoked the situation to such an extent where they would lose such a vote.

Fiona is following the law.  Lambert is not.  Bottom line.

Good because you would lose that argument.

No, I wouldn't.

Play that scene again.  Meredith is clearly gleeful (perhaps even sensually exicited) over the propsect of slaughtering mages.  The scene makes this painfully clear.

He is advocating murder and a cover up against the wishes of his own superior and then starts a mass revolt when he doesn't get his way.  How is he not like Meredith II?

-Poalris

Murder and acting against the wishes of one's superior are not the sole determining factor when comparing people.
I mentioned an important difference such as Meredith searching for evidence to fit her theories while Lambert creates theories based on already existing evidence.

Lambert is acting irresponsibly and based on his own fears and in so doing is causing what he says he wants to prevent.  Furthermore he is violating every oath he ever took and all his supposed moral sense in doing it.  He very much is Meredith II....and Lambert is culpable in trying to destroy evidence that doesn't fit what what he wants to believe...and isn't above cold blooded murder to do it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Lambert is not paranoid like Meredith. He fears mages but for good reasons.
And, as you know, I think mages are every bit as dangerous as the Chantry claims. More, in fact.

By the end of Asunder, Lambert is almost a picturebook definition of paranoid....just like Meredith.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
The chantry can blow it up it's posterior.

No.

Fiona is following the law.  Lambert is not.  Bottom line.

The law that you just made up this instant. Clearly, you're not using the DA universe anymore.

Play that scene again.  Meredith is clearly gleeful (perhaps even sensually exicited) over the propsect of slaughtering mages.  The scene makes this painfully clear.

Your creepiness is becoming painfully clear.

Lambert is acting irresponsibly and based on his own fears and in so doing is causing what he says he wants to prevent.  Furthermore he is violating every oath he ever took and all his supposed moral sense in doing it.  He very much is Meredith II....and Lambert is culpable in trying to destroy evidence that doesn't fit what what he wants to believe...and isn't above cold blooded murder to do it.

-Polaris

Lambert did not cause any rebellion by himself, Fiona had already presented the motion against all the directives of the Divine and then the mages resisted the lawful arrest of a murderer. Lambert, Fiona, Adrian all caused the situation to come to violence in the White Spire.

No, Lambert wants to destroy evidence that he feels has no practical use and will only serve to incentivate mages to rebel. This is because mages like Adrian will start demanding that all Tranquils be reverted regardless of how dangerous that is or why they were made Tranquil in the first place and when the Templars try to point out how insane that plan is, the mages will use it as "evidence" of their "opression".
Adrian does that not five minutes after Pharamond is restored against a templars that days before had saved her from being lynched.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
By the end of Asunder, Lambert is almost a picturebook definition of paranoid....just like Meredith.
-Polaris

You can repeat that as many times as you like. You're still wrong.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The chantry can blow it up it's posterior.

No.

Fiona is following the law.  Lambert is not.  Bottom line.

The law that you just made up this instant. Clearly, you're not using the DA universe anymore.

No I'm not.  The Grand Enchanter is the chair.  There is nothing in Asunder that even remotely suggests that calling the motion was out of line.  If it were, then the loyalists surely would have objected on those grounds.  You need to face that fact that according to the lore, Fiona's motion WAS apparently legal. 

As for the chantry blowing it up it's posterior, you can say 'no' all you like and it makes no difference at all. The Chantry forced the issue.  This is not the first time such a vote was legally held.  This time, the Aequetarians had been pushed too far...and Lambert bears a large part of that blame, but Justina does too.  Justina seems like Elthina II frankly.

Play that scene again.  Meredith is clearly gleeful (perhaps even sensually exicited) over the propsect of slaughtering mages.  The scene makes this painfully clear.

Your creepiness is becoming painfully clear.

Play the scene again.  Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.  Meredith is clearly gloating and gleeful at the prospect of some good 'honest' mage slaughter.

Lambert is acting irresponsibly and based on his own fears and in so doing is causing what he says he wants to prevent.  Furthermore he is violating every oath he ever took and all his supposed moral sense in doing it.  He very much is Meredith II....and Lambert is culpable in trying to destroy evidence that doesn't fit what what he wants to believe...and isn't above cold blooded murder to do it.

-Polaris

Lambert did not cause any rebellion by himself, Fiona had already presented the motion against all the directives of the Divine and then the mages resisted the lawful arrest of a murderer. Lambert, Fiona, Adrian all caused the situation to come to violence in the White Spire.

Lambert had already acted against the express order of his superior the Divine not once but several times.  Lambert is to blame.

No, Lambert wants to destroy evidence that he feels has no practical use and will only serve to incentivate mages to rebel. This is because mages like Adrian will start demanding that all Tranquils be reverted regardless of how dangerous that is or why they were made Tranquil in the first place and when the Templars try to point out how insane that plan is, the mages will use it as "evidence" of their "opression".
Adrian does that not five minutes after Pharamond is restored against a templars that days before had saved her from being lynched.

It doesn't matter.  Lambert expressly disobeyed the order of HIS DIRECT SUPERIOR and then tried to resort to cold blooded murder to cover it up and then started a rebellion when he didn't get his way.

Sounds like Meredith II to me.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
By the end of Asunder, Lambert is almost a picturebook definition of paranoid....just like Meredith.
-Polaris

You can repeat that as many times as you like. You're still wrong.

Lambert listens to his fear and provokes something he says he wants to avoid.  Seems like paranoia to me.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Her reputation would improve drastically if the clan saw Merril shattering the mirror into a thousands pieces.

No, it wouldn't. It really wouldn't. They'd still hate her, still fear she's tainted, still revile her for using blood magic, and everything else.

It's far too soon to claim that the danger of the Taint returning is nonexistent. According to Tamlen, the Eluvians could very well lead to the Black City itself; the very heart of the Taint in Thedas; and that there is something in there waiting, watching...

Actually, there's more to suggest it's Arlathan he saw, since he says it was an underground city he saw.

And I have a theory on where Arlathan lies. My guess is it that Arlathan lay underneath the Silent Plains, a permanently tainted area where the first Archdemon was slain -- whether it was Dumat or not is in contention, given Legacy's Altar of Dumat quest.

We know that it was reputedly sunk underground by the Magisters. If so, then there's nothing keeping the Darkspawn from overrunning the place and tainting it -- more so if they originally rested in an area that is now permanently Blight-ridden.

I also posit that the Eluvian in the Dalish Elf origin was linked to Arlathan -- Tamlen does say he sees an underground city -- and that Tamlen's touching it activated the portal aspect for some reason, causing Darkspawn to begin using it to pour into Ferelden from there. I'd argue that this is supported by the fact that you're only fighting Genlocks the entire time, but then again they are the most common in the horde so meh.

Duncan and others believe the Darkspawn were attracted to it from the Brecilian Forest. But I don't buy that. I think they were using it as a means to invade Ferelden from Tevinter. If so, then Duncan's smashing of it was, at the time, a good thing. But the danger has passed now and Merrill has fixed the problems the Eluvian fragment had.

The Eluvians are anything but safe.

The Stenishok and the Arishok have a word to say with you.

Which jests aside, I do wonder if the Qunari would be willing to research the Eluvians since it is a new form of technology they probably don't have, and they tend to not waste things -- unless they're given a reason.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Lambert listens to his fear and provokes something he says he wants to avoid.  Seems like paranoia to me.

-Polaris

Fear does not equal paranoia. Fearing those who can burn you with their minds is commond sense, not paranoia.

Believing someone you distrust to be involved in something despite all evidence in contrary such as Meredith did, that's paranoia.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

nevermind that it apparently can be used as a portal for demons

There is absolutely no proof to back up Marethari's assertion, especially since she's claiming that Audacity -- a trapped and sundered-from-the-Fade demon that both she and Merrill label such -- would be able to use the Eluvian as a portal, when we know for a fact that the Eluvians only act as portals when there's another one on the other end.

Marethari's the woman who said she didn't ever want to research the Eluvians in both games. Taking anything she says as being possible when it has no foundation is just... not right.

All spirits are dangerous, that's true. But, when Anders attempts to explain that demons break down into different sins, she dismisses this as a human story yo explain the world and that demons differ from each other like humans do.

You're not looking at her dialogue correctly. What she's taking issue with is the idea that one must abide by a religious denotation of the spirits of the Fade -- and Demons and Spirits are all spirits, as a few Circle Mages identify them as such.

She will identify a few demons by what they prey upon, for instance. It's not that she doesn't study the spirits of the Fade, it's just that she doesn't call them Demons and Spirits because to the Dalish, all the denizens of the Fade are spirits and all are dangerous -- and different, which is true in that not one spirit has the same goals, views, and whatnot as the next.

Examples: The Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads, calling Torpor a being of sloth and telling you to to think active thoughts like jumping and such, and maybe more.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:49 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Lambert listens to his fear and provokes something he says he wants to avoid.  Seems like paranoia to me.

-Polaris

Fear does not equal paranoia. Fearing those who can burn you with their minds is commond sense, not paranoia.

Believing someone you distrust to be involved in something despite all evidence in contrary such as Meredith did, that's paranoia.

Unreasonable fear and allowing that to dictate your actions IS paranoia, and by the end Lambert is clearly acting in a paranoid fashion.  Sorry but truth is truth.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

As for the Elluvians being used as a portal for demons, there is only one source for that: Merethari. Who told Merethari? Audacity, a pride demon.

Sorry if I don't take a pride demon's word at face value, and especially not when he's using it to corrupt another (in this case Merethari).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
No I'm not.  The Grand Enchanter is the chair.  There is nothing in Asunder that even remotely suggests that calling the motion was out of line.  If it were, then the loyalists surely would have objected on those grounds.  You need to face that fact that according to the lore, Fiona's motion WAS apparently legal. 

I don't think you understand the absurdity you just said.
You basis that the motion was legal was because no one spoke against it and then called that "lore". That is not lore, that is the very absence of it.
And people spoke against, in fact. Wynne flat out told Fiona the conclave was to be used to discuss Pharamond's research, nothing else.

As for the chantry blowing it up it's posterior, you can say 'no' all you like and it makes no difference at all. The Chantry forced the issue.  This is not the first time such a vote was legally held.  This time, the Aequetarians had been pushed too far...and Lambert bears a large part of that blame, but Justina does too.  Justina seems like Elthina II frankly.

The Chantry has legal authority over mages and templars. The mages can no more vote themselves out of its jurisdiction than I can vote for a new Constitution.

Play the scene again.  Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.  Meredith is clearly gloating and gleeful at the prospect of some good 'honest' mage slaughter.

"Denial" is not a river in Egypt at all. It's called "Nile".

Lambert had already acted against the express order of his superior the Divine not once but several times.  Lambert is to blame.

First, he didn't.
Second, of course, it's always the templars. Fiona who instigated a rebellions; Adrian who murdered Pharamond and planted the evidence in Rhys' quarters; Wynne who wouldn't allow the arrest of her son.
And here I tought you were unresonable.

It doesn't matter.  Lambert expressly disobeyed the order of HIS DIRECT SUPERIOR and then tried to resort to cold blooded murder to cover it up and then started a rebellion when he didn't get his way.

Sounds like Meredith II to me.

-Polaris

It matters if you try to claim that Lambert wanted to destroy something because it didn't fit his view of something. I simply corrected you.


First, Meredith did not disobey any of Elthina's order, she never tried to cover anything in her life and she didn't start a rebellion.
Second, neither did Lambert. He never disobeyed any of the Divine's orders(he entered the conclave to arrest Rhys, not to dissolve it), he didn't try to cover anything, much less by murder(the First Enchanters were imprisioned, not killed and the Divine knew all about it) and he didn't start a rebellion(he quit his job and convinced many friends to do the same).

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Elluvians being used as a portal for demons, there is only one source for that: Merethari. Who told Merethari? Audacity, a pride demon.

Sorry if I don't take a pride demon's word at face value, and especially not when he's using it to corrupt another (in this case Merethari).

-Polaris

Exactly. That's what I've argued many times over before. We know that from the base of the mountain where the clan resides, both Marethari and Merrill -- when Merrill was living with the clan -- could just barely hear what he was whispering to them. As they moved further up the mountain to investigate, it grew louder and louder.

Thus we can take from this that Audacity's influence waxes and wanes depending on the proximity of a Mage to him. Merrill went to Kirkwall during Act 1, which is miles and miles away from Sundermount's base.

Factor in how Merrill has actually done her research through what scraps of information she could find and how she hasn't gone to Audacity for help until she had exhausted every other possible idea on her long list of them that she could come up with and there's no reason to take the word of Marethari as anything other then the subtle manipulations of Audacity.

Audacity, the Demon was trying to drive a bigger wedge between Keeper and ex-First, but at the same time make Marethari think she's doing what's best for Merrill.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Unreasonable fear and allowing that to dictate your actions IS paranoia, and by the end Lambert is clearly acting in a paranoid fashion.  Sorry but truth is truth.
-Polaris

Fear of mages is 100% reasonable and so is taking precautions against them. You do realize that gun restrictions could be classified as "allowing fear to dictate your actions", right?
Sorry, but you're just wrong.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
No I'm not.  The Grand Enchanter is the chair.  There is nothing in Asunder that even remotely suggests that calling the motion was out of line.  If it were, then the loyalists surely would have objected on those grounds.  You need to face that fact that according to the lore, Fiona's motion WAS apparently legal. 

I don't think you understand the absurdity you just said.
You basis that the motion was legal was because no one spoke against it and then called that "lore". That is not lore, that is the very absence of it.
And people spoke against, in fact. Wynne flat out told Fiona the conclave was to be used to discuss Pharamond's research, nothing else.

The Grand Enchanter as the chair clearly had the power to raise the motion.  If she didn't, the Loyalists (and there WAS strong loyalist opposition) could have declared her out of order.  Not only that but this isn't the first time such a motion was voted on.  The bottom line is that the vote was legal and it was accepted as legal by both sides.  It was Lambert that had a hissy fit and tried to kill everyone when he didn't get his way.

As for the chantry blowing it up it's posterior, you can say 'no' all you like and it makes no difference at all. The Chantry forced the issue.  This is not the first time such a vote was legally held.  This time, the Aequetarians had been pushed too far...and Lambert bears a large part of that blame, but Justina does too.  Justina seems like Elthina II frankly.

The Chantry has legal authority over mages and templars. The mages can no more vote themselves out of its jurisdiction than I can vote for a new Constitution.

The Circle is independant of the Chantry.  It may be a "technicality" but it's still the technical rule.  See Alistair's comments in DAO.  Basically the circle does have the right to vote to secede from the Nevarran accords.  Sister Nightengale implicitly admits this by permitting the Libertarian faction to exist.  Not only that but Wynne clearly says such a vote was in the offing when the Enchanters met in Cumberland during DAA.  Wynne objected to the wisdom of the vote, but not the legality of it.

Play the scene again.  Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.  Meredith is clearly gloating and gleeful at the prospect of some good 'honest' mage slaughter.

"Denial" is not a river in Egypt at all. It's called "Nile".

Pfft.  You know damn well what I mean.  More denial on your part.

Lambert had already acted against the express order of his superior the Divine not once but several times.  Lambert is to blame.

First, he didn't.
Second, of course, it's always the templars. Fiona who instigated a rebellions; Adrian who murdered Pharamond and planted the evidence in Rhys' quarters; Wynne who wouldn't allow the arrest of her son.
And here I tought you were unresonable.

It doesn't matter.  Lambert expressly disobeyed the order of HIS DIRECT SUPERIOR and then tried to resort to cold blooded murder to cover it up and then started a rebellion when he didn't get his way.

Sounds like Meredith II to me.

-Polaris

It matters if you try to claim that Lambert wanted to destroy something because it didn't fit his view of something. I simply corrected you.


First, Meredith did not disobey any of Elthina's order, she never tried to cover anything in her life and she didn't start a rebellion.

Meredith does try to go over Elthina's head, does refuse to aknowledge evidence that Orsino was NOT behind her little palace rebellion (Thrask was) and even accuses both the Champion and her own templars of falling under the sway of blood magic when they disagree.  As for covering things up, Meredith clearly did some heavy editing of her reports given what the Seekers knew at the start of DA2.

Her actions and the unlawful assumption of the Viscount's duties clearly DID start a rebellion whether you want to admit this or not.

Second, neither did Lambert. He never disobeyed any of the Divine's orders(he entered the conclave to arrest Rhys, not to dissolve it), he didn't try to cover anything, much less by murder(the First Enchanters were imprisioned, not killed and the Divine knew all about it) and he didn't start a rebellion(he quit his job and convinced many friends to do the same).

He tried to murder his own knight commander(s) and subvert the orders of his direct superior not once but at least twice.  Subverting an order knowingly IS disobeying it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Unreasonable fear and allowing that to dictate your actions IS paranoia, and by the end Lambert is clearly acting in a paranoid fashion.  Sorry but truth is truth.
-Polaris

Fear of mages is 100% reasonable and so is taking precautions against them. You do realize that gun restrictions could be classified as "allowing fear to dictate your actions", right?
Sorry, but you're just wrong.

Fear of mages is not 100% reasonable.  In fact most mages would probably struggle to light a candle (mages of the power of the PC seem to be the exception not the rule).  Not only that but any reasonable demographic analysist strongly implies that demonic possession of mages is very rare especially with proper training.

Now control of magic and a healthy respect for what it can do and the pitfalls of untrained magic is reasonable, but that isn't what we are talking about.  Lambert is driven by FEAR...fear that all mages are just like the horrible Tevinter magisters that he remembers.  That is unreasonable and......wait for it.....paranoid.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Merrill takes every precaution she knows how within the limations of what she can do. It was the clan that kicked her out, and it was the clan that denied her any magical help whatsoever (at Merethari's behest no less). Working on the mirror as a loner in the wilderness is not an option since Merrill would be dead within the year (as she explains). You are being grossly unfair in your criticism.

Indeed. As we find out, before Merrill turned to blood magic she approached Marethari for assistance with studying the Eluvian. Marethari's healing magic was proven to combat the Taint and Merrill was taught this same magic. Merrill was hoping that combined, their magic would be enough to cleanse it of the Taint.

But Marethari refused to help at all. She didn't want anything to do with them based on a misguided fear. So Merrill had to turn to blood magic -- since there were no buckets of lyrium around -- and learned it from Audacity. As a result, she used her blood to amplify the healing magic Marethari taught her, and successfully cleansed the shard of its corruption.

Then when she goes to Kirkwall, it's for various reasons:

1) To blend in as another Elf in the crowds.
2) To give the clan the safety they want while she can study like she wants.
3) I'd argue access to old Tevinter archives, since they had passed to their possession.

And potentially, she gets the aid of Hawke.