546 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Grand Enchanter as the chair clearly had the power to raise the motion.  If she didn't, the Loyalists (and there WAS strong loyalist opposition) could have declared her out of order.  Not only that but this isn't the first time such a motion was voted on.  The bottom line is that the vote was legal and it was accepted as legal by both sides.  It was Lambert that had a hissy fit and tried to kill everyone when he didn't get his way.

Clearly, she didn't because Wynne declared her out of order. The Libertarians abused the goodwill of the Chantry and protected a murderer hence Lambert's "hissy fit".

The Circle is independant of the Chantry.  It may be a "technicality" but it's still the technical rule.  See Alistair's comments in DAO.  Basically the circle does have the right to vote to secede from the Nevarran accords.  Sister Nightengale implicitly admits this by permitting the Libertarian faction to exist.  Not only that but Wynne clearly says such a vote was in the offing when the Enchanters met in Cumberland during DAA.  Wynne objected to the wisdom of the vote, but not the legality of it.

The presence of the templars on every tower and their role in controlling and punishing mages implicitly places the Circle under Chantry jurisdiction since they control the templars. The mages can't simply vote the templars away..

Pfft.  You know damn well what I mean.  More denial on your part.

I know that Meredith has wanted to Annul a Circle she considered corrupt. Not that she getting off on it as you suggested.

Meredith does try to go over Elthina's head, does refuse to aknowledge evidence that Orsino was NOT behind her little palace rebellion (Thrask was) and even accuses both the Champion and her own templars of falling under the sway of blood magic when they disagree.  As for covering things up, Meredith clearly did some heavy editing of her reports given what the Seekers knew at the start of DA2.

Her actions and the unlawful assumption of the Viscount's duties clearly DID start a rebellion whether you want to admit this or not.

Her actions did not constitute a rebellion. She was unresonable both in her unwillingness to accept Elthina's judgement regarding the Right of Annulment and her to believe Orsino was not behind Thrask's rebellion but she was not rebelling against the Chantry.
And she declared the Right after Elthina was dead and the authority passed on to her, therefore, also not a rebellion.

He tried to murder his own knight commander(s) and subvert the orders of his direct superior not once but at least twice.  Subverting an order knowingly IS disobeying it.

-Polaris

I don't even know what you're referring to right now.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 janvier 2013 - 04:20 .

[TEWR]

Not that she getting off on it as you suggested

She kinda is happy about being able to do it now, actually. A few of the endgame quest scenes show dialogue that render her with a persona of being happy to finally "cleanse the world of the cancer".

But question: Why has the topic gone from Merrill to just regular Mages and Templars?

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Fear of mages is not 100% reasonable.  In fact most mages would probably struggle to light a candle (mages of the power of the PC seem to be the exception not the rule).  Not only that but any reasonable demographic analysist strongly implies that demonic possession of mages is very rare especially with proper training.

Now control of magic and a healthy respect for what it can do and the pitfalls of untrained magic is reasonable, but that isn't what we are talking about.  Lambert is driven by FEAR...fear that all mages are just like the horrible Tevinter magisters that he remembers.  That is unreasonable and......wait for it.....paranoid.

-Polaris

First, we don't have those numbers. And demonic possession is not the only source of preocupation when dealing with magic.

Second, fear that people with power will use that power for their sole benefit is very reasonable and supported both by historical facts and any reasonable study of human psychology.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But question: Why has the topic gone from Merrill to just regular Mages and Templars?

Polaris made a quip about Merril having reasonable views on magic. I argued that she is far too quick to dismiss the findings of humans just because they come from the Circle which is affiliated to the Chantry. Polaris claimed the Chantrys not interested in research, I said it was and gave exemples amongst them Pharamond's research which lead to Lambert which lead to Meredith.

[TEWR]

Nevermind that Meredith didn't want to Tranquilize all mages in the first place.

She did. She just never made it an official stance. Tranquil or dead, it didn't matter to her.

[MisterJB]

She didn't. She spoke against it.
And I'm sure you will use her inaction in the face of Alrik's illegal Tranquilizations as "proof". That's circunstancial evidence at best. There are other explanations.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...


Polaris made a quip about Merril having reasonable views on magic. I argued that she is far too quick to dismiss the findings of humans just because they come from the Circle which is affiliated to the Chantry.

Ah. Well she does have a reasonable view of magic. And she doesn't dismiss the findings of humans. What she dismisses is Anders' attempt to explain the nature of Spirits and Demons by citing the Andrastian creation story that they were the Maker's first children.

When Anders talks about how they break down into different sins, she doesn't explicitly deny such a claim. She says that all spirits are different from one another -- which is true, even if they prey off of/embody similar vices/virtues -- which points more to her saying it's kinda pointless to try and break down each type of Demon as being different from another type when in the end, they're all different.

Polaris claimed the Chantrys not interested in research, I said it was and gave exemples amongst them Pharamond's research which lead to Lambert which lead to Meredith.

I'd say that on the whole, the Chantry has only recently started research again thanks to Justinia V. Outside of the Circle of Rivain -- which is a nation that reveres its Mages and places a great deal of importance on spirit interaction -- other Circles don't get to really research these things.

Demonology isn't really allowed in the Circles anymore due to the Chantry trying to conflate it with blood magic -- I forget where I read that, but I read it somewhere -- which prompted Wilhelm's secret research into it. Study into the RoT has only been a recent thing when it's been around for... centuries now?

So the Chantry definitely forbid most forms of research that would better the lives of Mages. Justinia V aimed to change that, and from our talks Lambert seemed like he was truly not opposed to a refined RoT.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 janvier 2013 - 04:47 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Grand Enchanter as the chair clearly had the power to raise the motion.  If she didn't, the Loyalists (and there WAS strong loyalist opposition) could have declared her out of order.  Not only that but this isn't the first time such a motion was voted on.  The bottom line is that the vote was legal and it was accepted as legal by both sides.  It was Lambert that had a hissy fit and tried to kill everyone when he didn't get his way.

Clearly, she didn't because Wynne declared her out of order. The Libertarians abused the goodwill of the Chantry and protected a murderer hence Lambert's "hissy fit".

Wynne accepted the vote as legal and binding.  It was Lambert that exceeded his authority.  Wynne objected, but the vote was valid and accepted as valid.

The Circle is independant of the Chantry.  It may be a "technicality" but it's still the technical rule.  See Alistair's comments in DAO.  Basically the circle does have the right to vote to secede from the Nevarran accords.  Sister Nightengale implicitly admits this by permitting the Libertarian faction to exist.  Not only that but Wynne clearly says such a vote was in the offing when the Enchanters met in Cumberland during DAA.  Wynne objected to the wisdom of the vote, but not the legality of it.

The presence of the templars on every tower and their role in controlling and punishing mages implicitly places the Circle under Chantry jurisdiction since they control the templars. The mages can't simply vote the templars away..

Implicitly yes, but EXPLICITLY no.  The Chantry never required the circles to be part of the chantry structure (unlike the Order of Inquisition which would later become the Templars).  You may say I am hinging on a technicality but in this case such technicalities matters.  The College of Enchanters had the legal right to vote on Circle independance and did.  That the Chantry didn't like the result is entirely the Chantry's fault.

Pfft.  You know damn well what I mean.  More denial on your part.

I know that Meredith has wanted to Annul a Circle she considered corrupt. Not that she getting off on it as you suggested.

Watch that scene again.  She is bursting with glee at the prospect of skewing some mages.

Meredith does try to go over Elthina's head, does refuse to aknowledge evidence that Orsino was NOT behind her little palace rebellion (Thrask was) and even accuses both the Champion and her own templars of falling under the sway of blood magic when they disagree.  As for covering things up, Meredith clearly did some heavy editing of her reports given what the Seekers knew at the start of DA2.

Her actions and the unlawful assumption of the Viscount's duties clearly DID start a rebellion whether you want to admit this or not.

Her actions did not constitute a rebellion. She was unresonable both in her unwillingness to accept Elthina's judgement regarding the Right of Annulment and her to believe Orsino was not behind Thrask's rebellion but she was not rebelling against the Chantry.
And she declared the Right after Elthina was dead and the authority passed on to her, therefore, also not a rebellion.

She was only on the legal right on the barest of technicalities and we both know it.  Had Meredith survived being drummed out of the order when the Divine found out would have been the least punishment Meredith would have had coming to her, and Knight-Captain Cullen wouldn't have gotten off scott-free either.  He would have been reprimanded at the very least for not taking command sooner.

He tried to murder his own knight commander(s) and subvert the orders of his direct superior not once but at least twice.  Subverting an order knowingly IS disobeying it.

-Polaris

I don't even know what you're referring to right now.

The book.  Lambert resorted to attempted murder several times to hide evidence that he didn't like.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

She didn't. She spoke against it.
And I'm sure you will use her inaction in the face of Alrik's illegal Tranquilizations as "proof". That's circunstancial evidence at best. There are other explanations.

Knight Captain Cullen gave at least tacit support for Alirk's ideas, and Elthina is more horrified that you might have "murdered" Ser Alrik (who cares if a little mage girl gets raped....mages are subhuman anyway, right?).

I find your entire position on this issue to be reprehensible, and Meredith clearly has no trouble with tranquilling all mages...as long as she isn't blamed for it.  Inaction when you are a commander IS a form of sanction.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Wynne accepted the vote as legal and binding.  It was Lambert that exceeded his authority.  Wynne objected, but the vote was valid and accepted as valid.

No, she didn't. She spoke against it and there was no vote at all afterwards.

Implicitly yes, but EXPLICITLY no.  The Chantry never required the circles to be part of the chantry structure (unlike the Order of Inquisition which would later become the Templars).  You may say I am hinging on a technicality but in this case such technicalities matters.  The College of Enchanters had the legal right to vote on Circle independance and did.  That the Chantry didn't like the result is entirely the Chantry's fault.

The templars have an explicite authority over mages, for instance, in how the KC has one of the keys to acess the phylactery room or it requires his assinature for a mage to be made Tranquil.
Any vote to secede from the Chantry would require the participation of the Templars.

Watch that scene again.  She is bursting with glee at the prospect of skewing some mages.

I burst with glee if I get promoted. Doesn't mean I'm literally bursting a nut.

She was only on the legal right on the barest of technicalities and we both know it.  Had Meredith survived being drummed out of the order when the Divine found out would have been the least punishment Meredith would have had coming to her, and Knight-Captain Cullen wouldn't have gotten off scott-free either.  He would have been reprimanded at the very least for not taking command sooner.

Technicalities matter.

The book.  Lambert resorted to attempted murder several times to hide evidence that he didn't like.
-Polaris

No, he didn't. What are you talking about? At least present examples.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Elthina is more horrified that you might have "murdered" Ser Alrik (who cares if a little mage girl gets raped....mages are subhuman anyway, right?).
-Polaris

You want what, exactly? For the Grand Cleric to rejoice over the death of someone? Elthina had compassion for all.
And there is nothing that indicates she knew Alrik was taking advantage of mages, anyway.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Wynne accepted the vote as legal and binding.  It was Lambert that exceeded his authority.  Wynne objected, but the vote was valid and accepted as valid.

No, she didn't. She spoke against it and there was no vote at all afterwards.

Wynne spoke against it in DAA as well.  That doesn't mean she doesn't aknowledge it's legality.  It was Lambert, that used naked force and went into open rebellion and there IS no technicalities here.  He is violating every oath he ever made.

Implicitly yes, but EXPLICITLY no.  The Chantry never required the circles to be part of the chantry structure (unlike the Order of Inquisition which would later become the Templars).  You may say I am hinging on a technicality but in this case such technicalities matters.  The College of Enchanters had the legal right to vote on Circle independance and did.  That the Chantry didn't like the result is entirely the Chantry's fault.

The templars have an explicite authority over mages, for instance, in how the KC has one of the keys to acess the phylactery room or it requires his assinature for a mage to be made Tranquil.
Any vote to secede from the Chantry would require the participation of the Templars.

Yes, but under *explicit* Chantry law, the Circle of Magi are NOT part of the Chantry.  The Circles are independant and this is canon.   That hasn't been respected by the Chantry I grant, but that is the law.

Watch that scene again.  She is bursting with glee at the prospect of skewing some mages.

I burst with glee if I get promoted. Doesn't mean I'm literally bursting a nut.

Watch that scene again. She is.  Really. 

She was only on the legal right on the barest of technicalities and we both know it.  Had Meredith survived being drummed out of the order when the Divine found out would have been the least punishment Meredith would have had coming to her, and Knight-Captain Cullen wouldn't have gotten off scott-free either.  He would have been reprimanded at the very least for not taking command sooner.

Technicalities matter.

So they do, (but see above about circle independance), but the fact is that Meredith was out of line and every Tempar knew it.  It's a good thing for Meredith that she was turned into a Lyrium statue by the Champion.  Otherwise her career would have crashed and burned for assuming authority over an unnecesary RoA.  Justina would have made sure of that and I don't think even Lambert could have said 'boo' in that case.

The point is that Meredith was using every inch of authority she had and took authority she had no right to (like being effectivce Viscountess).  If you don't think that is acting at least in a seditious manner.....well....

The book.  Lambert resorted to attempted murder several times to hide evidence that he didn't like.
-Polaris

No, he didn't. What are you talking about? At least present examples.

Lambert orders his subordinate to supress the reserach and if necessary kill everyone so it can be hidden and does so not once but twice.  Contracting a killing is still attempted murder and doing so in the opposition to his lawful superior is treason.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Elthina is more horrified that you might have "murdered" Ser Alrik (who cares if a little mage girl gets raped....mages are subhuman anyway, right?).
-Polaris

You want what, exactly? For the Grand Cleric to rejoice over the death of someone? Elthina had compassion for all.
And there is nothing that indicates she knew Alrik was taking advantage of mages, anyway.

She didn't want to know.  All you had to do in Act 2 was stand for five minutes in the Gallows and you would hear plenty that would lead you to think that Alrik was using the tranquil for "personal services".  For that matter the scene with Alrik and Ella is obvious and damning, but Elthina doesn't even ASK why you killed Alrik.  She takes his side and doesn't want to hear anything that might contradict it.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Wynne spoke against it in DAA as well.  That doesn't mean she doesn't aknowledge it's legality.  It was Lambert, that used naked force and went into open rebellion and there IS no technicalities here.  He is violating every oath he ever made.

Except that she spoke against its legality in Asunder.
And Lambert broke no oath. He didn't enter the conclave to stop it but to arrest Rhys which he had legal authority to do. Once the mages attempted to prevent him from carrying out his duty, they were guilty of obstruction to the law.
And even if he attempted to stop the conclave, that would be acceptable because they were discussing illegalities, anyway.

Yes, but under *explicit* Chantry law, the Circle of Magi are NOT part of the Chantry.  The Circles are independant and this is canon.   That hasn't been respected by the Chantry I grant, but that is the law.

The templars, on the other hand, are very much part of the Circle since the FE can't even enter the phylactery room without the KC there. Therefore, they had no right to vote to separate from the Chantry thus expelling the templars. It was illegal.

Lambert orders his subordinate to supress the reserach and if necessary kill everyone so it can be hidden and does so not once but twice.  Contracting a killing is still attempted murder and doing so in the opposition to his lawful superior is treason.

-Polaris

He does it once and I don't blame him. I wish Evangeline had just killed them all before Wynne sent a message.
The Rite of Tranquility should not be reversed in the first place except in situations where it was commited ilegally such as Alrik's victims.

And BTW, the Divine knews of this and didn't remove his commission so, obviously, she didn't think it was such a treasonous act. Overzealous, perhaps.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 janvier 2013 - 05:41 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
She didn't want to know.  All you had to do in Act 2 was stand for five minutes in the Gallows and you would hear plenty that would lead you to think that Alrik was using the tranquil for "personal services".  For that matter the scene with Alrik and Ella is obvious and damning, but Elthina doesn't even ASK why you killed Alrik.  She takes his side and doesn't want to hear anything that might contradict it.

-Polaris

She is not taking his side. She is condemning Hawke for taking justice into his own hands as she should.
In fact, she is being very gracious by not simply going to the City Guard.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 janvier 2013 - 05:42 .

[dragonflight288]

Merrill fought in self-defense from a bunch of bigoted dalish who were dead set on blaming her for their problems.

[TEWR]

Regarding Elthina and Alrik, I don't think that's the case at all -- for either of you.

Elthina's remarks show that she's unaware who killed Alrik, but is surprised to see something of his in Hawke's possession. She may suspect Hawke of having killed Alrik, but there's no real proof she has of this. So even if she wanted to go to the City Guard, she couldn't.

Not to mention it'd be a bit futile to go to Aveline, who is Hawke's friend, on criminal matters Hawke has committed.

Now, I don't condone her ignorance of the situation -- as the Grand Cleric has authority over the Templars and should know what's going on -- but she's certainly not on Alrik's side because she believes the RoT is a last resort that still has its own costs.

Part of me wants to lean towards the "Elthina was just waiting for opportune moments to manipulate the chaotic events of the city to her benefit when she would eventually step in" camp.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...



Merrill fought in self-defense from a bunch of bigoted dalish who were dead set on blaming her for their problems.

Merrill has been forgotten, my friend. Many posts I made in her defense, yet the Mages and Templars have swallowed the thread whole.

Weep for this thread, for she is lost.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Not to mention it'd be a bit futile to go to Aveline, who is Hawke's friend, on criminal matters Hawke has committed.

Which does bring up an interesting question regarding corruption in the City Guard.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Merrill has been forgotten, my friend. Many posts I made in her defense, yet the Mages and Templars have swallowed the thread whole.

Weep for this thread, for she is lost.

Which is oddly appropriate considering the mages and templars will soon swallow the world in war despite there actually being many issues in Thedas far more deserving of attention.

[TEWR]

Which does bring up an interesting question regarding corruption in the City Guard.

It's a topic broached a few times in-game by Aveline on how she's trying really hard to avoid that, and certainly one I included in the beginning chapter of my DAII fanfic -- that I really haven't continued since I finished that chapter.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



Merrill fought in self-defense from a bunch of bigoted dalish who were dead set on blaming her for their problems.

Merrill has been forgotten, my friend. Many posts I made in her defense, yet the Mages and Templars have swallowed the thread whole.

Weep for this thread, for she is lost.

Then may the ancestors find favor with Merrill, for we do.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Wynne spoke against it in DAA as well.  That doesn't mean she doesn't aknowledge it's legality.  It was Lambert, that used naked force and went into open rebellion and there IS no technicalities here.  He is violating every oath he ever made.

Except that she spoke against its legality in Asunder.
And Lambert broke no oath. He didn't enter the conclave to stop it but to arrest Rhys which he had legal authority to do. Once the mages attempted to prevent him from carrying out his duty, they were guilty of obstruction to the law.
And even if he attempted to stop the conclave, that would be acceptable because they were discussing illegalities, anyway.

No.  The mages have the right to withdraw and they did.  Also just because Wynne was arguing the point doesn't make her right.  The Grand Enchanter had th legal right to call the vote and once that vote was made, Lambert had NO AUTHORITY to do anything to Rhys.  So no, you are not right about Lambert.  Even if you were, his futher actions were in complete abrogation of every vow he ever took.

Yes, but under *explicit* Chantry law, the Circle of Magi are NOT part of the Chantry.  The Circles are independant and this is canon.   That hasn't been respected by the Chantry I grant, but that is the law.

The templars, on the other hand, are very much part of the Circle since the FE can't even enter the phylactery room without the KC there. Therefore, they had no right to vote to separate from the Chantry thus expelling the templars. It was illegal.

False.  The Circle is independant.  The chantry has always allowed mages the hypothetical freedom of voting to seperate.  That may be a technicality that most in the Chantry has forgotten, but the Liberatarians are a legal fraternity and they call for the open break with the Chantry.  That alone says that calling for the vote was in fact legal.  What's more, it's not the first time such a vote has been called (see Cumberland).

Lambert orders his subordinate to supress the reserach and if necessary kill everyone so it can be hidden and does so not once but twice.  Contracting a killing is still attempted murder and doing so in the opposition to his lawful superior is treason.

-Polaris

He does it once and I don't blame him. I wish Evangeline had just killed them all before Wynne sent a message.
The Rite of Tranquility should not be reversed in the first place except in situations where it was commited ilegally such as Alrik's victims.

Which is still treason and explicit disobiedence of a lawful superior...not to mention attempted murder.

And BTW, the Divine knews of this and didn't remove his commission so, obviously, she didn't think it was such a treasonous act. Overzealous, perhaps.

The Divine has all the spine of Milquitoast.  That doesn't excuse Lambert or justify his actions in any way.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Regarding Elthina and Alrik, I don't think that's the case at all -- for either of you.

Elthina's remarks show that she's unaware who killed Alrik, but is surprised to see something of his in Hawke's possession. She may suspect Hawke of having killed Alrik, but there's no real proof she has of this. So even if she wanted to go to the City Guard, she couldn't.

Not to mention it'd be a bit futile to go to Aveline, who is Hawke's friend, on criminal matters Hawke has committed.

Actually I wish she would.  In my playthroughs Aveline was there as a witness to what Ser Alrik was doing.  It's just one more example of Ethina deliberately not wanting to know.  She is the sort of person that is perfectly happy wearing leather as long as she doesn't think about where it comes from (as one example).

Now, I don't condone her ignorance of the situation -- as the Grand Cleric has authority over the Templars and should know what's going on -- but she's certainly not on Alrik's side because she believes the RoT is a last resort that still has its own costs.

By her willful ignorance and by not even trying to find out what happened and how (not even with the Captian of the Guard standing in front of her) she is by default taking Alrik's side.  In this (if nothing else) Anders is right.

Part of me wants to lean towards the "Elthina was just waiting for opportune moments to manipulate the chaotic events of the city to her benefit when she would eventually step in" camp.

I think Ethina was a good woman but a weak willed person that had no business in being an any polsition of poltical responsibilty.  She lets more aggressive people walk all over her without realizing that someone in her position makes statements by what they don't do at least as much as what they do.  Even Sebastian was deeply unhappy with Elthina on this point.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
She didn't want to know.  All you had to do in Act 2 was stand for five minutes in the Gallows and you would hear plenty that would lead you to think that Alrik was using the tranquil for "personal services".  For that matter the scene with Alrik and Ella is obvious and damning, but Elthina doesn't even ASK why you killed Alrik.  She takes his side and doesn't want to hear anything that might contradict it.

-Polaris

She is not taking his side. She is condemning Hawke for taking justice into his own hands as she should.
In fact, she is being very gracious by not simply going to the City Guard.

I wish she would.  That would at least be taking a stand, and given that Hawke at this point is a nobleman (or noblewoman), he'd get a very public trial and be free to present evidence.  That would not make the Chantry look very good......especially if (as I always do) he can call the Captain of the Guard as a defense witness.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
No.  The mages have the right to withdraw and they did.  Also just because Wynne was arguing the point doesn't make her right.  The Grand Enchanter had th legal right to call the vote and once that vote was made, Lambert had NO AUTHORITY to do anything to Rhys.  So no, you are not right about Lambert.  Even if you were, his futher actions were in complete abrogation of every vow he ever took.

The mages had no right to call for a voting of separation in a meeting that was previously extablished to be to discuss Pharamond's research after the doors have been closed. That is abusing the good will of the Chantry. Even if the Grand Enchanter could just call for a vote on whatever she pleases, she can't do so on the spot. Wynne says as much.
And based on the evidence, Lambert had every authority to arrest Rhys and to use force to do so if need be. Templars police mages.

False.  The Circle is independant.  The chantry has always allowed mages the hypothetical freedom of voting to seperate.  That may be a technicality that most in the Chantry has forgotten, but the Liberatarians are a legal fraternity and they call for the open break with the Chantry.  That alone says that calling for the vote was in fact legal.  What's more, it's not the first time such a vote has been called (see Cumberland).

Even if the Circle was independant from the Chantry, it is not from the Templars. The First Enchanter can't even enter a room without the Knight Commander being present.
Therefore, even if the mages could vote for separation the templars would have to be involved. They weren't consulted.

Which is still treason and explicit disobiedence of a lawful superior...not to mention attempted murder.

Entirely justifiable.

The Divine has all the spine of Milquitoast.  That doesn't excuse Lambert or justify his actions in any way.
-Polaris

This Divine is employing bards, Seekers, facing down blood mages and speaking out in front of nobles.
It just so happens Lambert's caution was justified.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 janvier 2013 - 07:33 .