546 réponses à ce sujet

[shepard1038]

Didn't the Mage's declared war on the Chantry? I can't see that going well with the citizens of Andrastian society.

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

Didn't the Mage's declared war on the Chantry? I can't see that going well with the citizens of Andrastian society.

They did not.  The declared the circles to be independant of the Chantry (and only after duress).  Given that the Templars have revolted as well (and are now cut off from their Lyrium) and given (per Cullen) that the Templars have been less and less popular over the years, it may not be as bad for the mages as you think in this department.  It's going to depend a lot on where you are.

In fact I expect that Fereldan will largely remain intact with the Templars there agreeing to fall under the command of the Crown and be a mage-haven.  In a place like that I expect the attitude towards mages to be fairly positive.  In other places, less so.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The templars attack you before Anders does anything other than 'go demon'.  I have played that scene many times.  The Templars do attack first...hate to break it to you.

-Polaris

No, they don't. Anders becomes a demon, threatens to kill everyone and the combat starts implying his actions caused.
Pausing your part so the templars move first is not an argument, hate to break it to you.

You are wrong again.  Whenever the PC or one of Hawke's allies attacks first, the scene makes it brutally clear that this is what happens.  There are several scenes where Hawke attacks first (such as the red-interrupt when a rogue-hawke rescues Feynriel), or Isabella (on her first recruitment mission), or Fenris (when attacking the Slavers in the undercity), or even Varric (if you take Gascard to see Quentin with Varric in the party).

Absent this, the Templars clearly attack first.  Mind you, Anders-Vengeance would have attacked, but he didn't attack first and no amount of quibbling will make it otherwise.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
In fact I expect that Fereldan will largely remain intact with the Templars there agreeing to fall under the command of the Crown and be a mage-haven.  In a place like that I expect the attitude towards mages to be fairly positive.  In other places, less so.

Placing mages in the control of the Crown or nobles is one of the worst things that could happen. It would give them one more weapon to wage territorial wars with. If Ferelden did this, it would lead to the other countries, especially Orlais, feeling threatened by it which would increase the possibility of war.
Gregoir would understand this, he is far more likely to remain loyal to Justinia.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
You are wrong again.  Whenever the PC or one of Hawke's allies attacks first, the scene makes it brutally clear that this is what happens.  There are several scenes where Hawke attacks first (such as the red-interrupt when a rogue-hawke rescues Feynriel), or Isabella (on her first recruitment mission), or Fenris (when attacking the Slavers in the undercity), or even Varric (if you take Gascard to see Quentin with Varric in the party).

Absent this, the Templars clearly attack first.  Mind you, Anders-Vengeance would have attacked, but he didn't attack first and no amount of quibbling will make it otherwise.

Except the Agressive response bears the sign of two swords crossing in that scene which, in DA2, means you choose to initiate comabt. As if the pharaphrase wouldn't be obvious enough "Die!" it read.
One of the sides shows zero sign of violence wanting instead to know who Hawke is while the other is literally spewing flame and threatening to kill them all. And you seem to believe it's more likely to templars attacked first.
You are wrong. Accept it and move on.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 janvier 2013 - 07:20 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That is not why mages are feared.  Mages are feared because they supposedly can 'go demon' by having a bad hair day.  Who propogates this belief?  The chantry.

Of course it is why mages are feared. Any mundane with half the intelligence the Maker granted a sheep would fear them because of that.
The possibility that they might be possessed is simply another danger.

Then we should lock up anyone with a sword...or even fists because fists can kill as well.  Please.

The fact is we see plenty of examples both historically and concurrently in Thedas where mages are not feared.  You, however, ignore all of this because of "common sense".

The Dalish, a mage supremacist society that has brainwashed their mundanes. Bravo.

The Dalish are not a mage supremacist socity.  Tevinter is yes, but not the Dalish.  The Keepers are mages yes, but the Keeper is the first of equals with the Halla Herder, Chief Hunter, Chief Crafter, and Hahren all having strong leadership roles.  In fact the possession of magic is not considered a big deal with the Dalish either way.  In fact Dalish Lore is that all the Elvanhan had magic and hopefully one day they will all have it again.

Not only that but there are many, many societies both current and historical (and not just the Dalish) that deal with magic just fine.  Even Andrastian societies didn't lock up mages until well after Andraste's death.

You are wrong.  For starters I never said that mages should solely police other mages only that mages should play a role (and the best way to contain a mage is with another mage).  As for mages caring about templar abilities, honestly the reverse seems more true.  In fact many (in fact most, i.e. Loyalists + Aequitarians) agree that there is a place for the Templars as part of magical protection and law enforcement.  The problem is the Chantry has abused this sacred trust (and thus should no longer have it).  That does not mean there should not be templar-like warriors ideally working with mages to regulate and police magic.

Except mages can't be trusted to police other mages and the superior abilties of mages pretty much ensures that they will take over the infastructure of society eventually as it happened in Tevinter if they are granted the same rights and freedoms of normal people.

You are being paranoid.  You are assuming without any basis in fact that mages will take over just because.  What you are forgetting is that "mage" is a phenotype and someone one is born with, not chosen.  That means you will have many different kinds of people.  Screen for the best and most psychologically stable mages (and mundanes too) and you should be fine.  Let's not forget that Templars also practice magic if you want to be really technical.

As you said, the best way to contain a mage is with another mage so, we do just that. We let the mages help. Everything works fine for the first couple of generations because these mages would still fear mundane retaliation. And as we see the system working, we begi to rely upon mages more and more.
Suddenly, it's five generations later, the highest ranks of the police are filled with mages who are ignoring crimes commited by other mages.

You are assuming that all mages are the same.  Your inner magister fear is showing.  The fact is that "mage" is a phenotype (like having blue eyes).  There is no reason why magically active people can't be properly screened to avoid this (and have it written into the law).

You are assuming a future problem as an excuse to not even try.  (And yes Fenris does this too).  This analysis is based on ONE example:  Tevinter.  That analysis completely overlooks that Tevinter culture isn't like other cultures.

The Chantry is doing just a fine job keeping mages where they can't hurt others while at the same time, providing them with food, education, clothes, healthcare, a luxurious tower to live in.
The mages protest far too much.

The world is burning because of Chantry abuses (when the Templars can't even follow their own laws).  Given that the entire system has fallen to pieces, you have an....odd....definition of 'fine job'.

You paint mages with one brush and that isn't fair nor accurate.

No, you do that with templars. I simply acknowledge the faults of mankind.
Any mundane would do the same as the mages if given their power.

No, not any mundane would any more than any mage would.  That is what pyschological screening is for.  However, you overlook a key difference.  You CHOOSE to be a Templar.  You do not choose to be a mage.  What's more, the Chantry currently recruits Templars for their "zeal" and not their moral centre which is about the worst possible way to screen for guards and police.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You are wrong again.  Whenever the PC or one of Hawke's allies attacks first, the scene makes it brutally clear that this is what happens.  There are several scenes where Hawke attacks first (such as the red-interrupt when a rogue-hawke rescues Feynriel), or Isabella (on her first recruitment mission), or Fenris (when attacking the Slavers in the undercity), or even Varric (if you take Gascard to see Quentin with Varric in the party).

Absent this, the Templars clearly attack first.  Mind you, Anders-Vengeance would have attacked, but he didn't attack first and no amount of quibbling will make it otherwise.

Except the Agressive response bears the sign of two swords crossing in that scene which, in DA2, means you choose to initiate comabt. As if the pharaphrase wouldn't be obvious enough "Die!" it read.
One of the sides shows zero sign of violence wanting instead to know who Hawke is while the other is literally spewing flame and threatening to kill them all. And you seem to believe it's more likely to templars attacked first.
You are wrong. Accept it and move on.

ONLY the aggressive response has the crossed swords.  That means that ONLY that response involves Hawke initiating combat which neatly proves my point.  Thanks.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
In fact I expect that Fereldan will largely remain intact with the Templars there agreeing to fall under the command of the Crown and be a mage-haven.  In a place like that I expect the attitude towards mages to be fairly positive.  In other places, less so.

Placing mages in the control of the Crown or nobles is one of the worst things that could happen. It would give them one more weapon to wage territorial wars with. If Ferelden did this, it would lead to the other countries, especially Orlais, feeling threatened by it which would increase the possibility of war.
Gregoir would understand this, he is far more likely to remain loyal to Justinia.

Alistair would give Gregoire a choice.  Place the Templars under the Authority of the Fereldan Chantry headed by the Crown or lose all oversight of Fereldan mages altogether.  Given the events in Asunder and given that Fereldan has a battlehardened army, Alistair could easily make that stick too and KC Gregoire would know that.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
ONLY the aggressive response has the crossed swords.  That means that ONLY that response involves Hawke initiating combat which neatly proves my point.  Thanks.

Nope, it means that in one option, Hawke helps start the fight while the others it's all Anders.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Then we should lock up anyone with a sword...or even fists because fists can kill as well.  Please.

So, your argument is that because two different things can kill, these things are basically the same and should handled with the same amount of caution.
Right. 9mm gun, nuclear bombs. There is a bloody difference.

The Dalish are not a mage supremacist socity.  Tevinter is yes, but not the Dalish.  The Keepers are mages yes, but the Keeper is the first of equals with the Halla Herder, Chief Hunter, Chief Crafter, and Hahren all having strong leadership roles.  In fact the possession of magic is not considered a big deal with the Dalish either way.  In fact Dalish Lore is that all the Elvanhan had magic and hopefully one day they will all have it again.

Yes, they are. Do mundane elves have any way to override a decision of the Keeper that is obviously harmful to the clan; such as what Marethary did; other than pleade with the Keeper who might ignore it by any reason he deems fit?
No. It would be different if the Halla Herder or the other Chiefs could vote and have the Keeper be forced to obey their decisions but there is no such measure. All they can do is pack up their stuff and leave the clan as we see many elves do by Act 3.
The Dalish are a mage supremacist society. It's not as depraved as Tevinter but that is what it is.

Not only that but there are many, many societies both current and historical (and not just the Dalish) that deal with magic just fine.  Even Andrastian societies didn't lock up mages until well after Andraste's death.

Not really. it's a good Andrastian society wised up.

You are being paranoid.  You are assuming without any basis in fact that mages will take over just because.  What you are forgetting is that "mage" is a phenotype and someone one is born with, not chosen.  That means you will have many different kinds of people.  Screen for the best and most psychologically stable mages (and mundanes too) and you should be fine.  Let's not forget that Templars also practice magic if you want to be really technical.

You are assuming that all mages are the same.  Your inner magister fear is showing.  The fact is that "mage" is a phenotype (like having blue eyes).  There is no reason why magically active people can't be properly screened to avoid this (and have it written into the law).

You are assuming a future problem as an excuse to not even try.  (And yes Fenris does this too).  This analysis is based on ONE example:  Tevinter.  That analysis completely overlooks that Tevinter culture isn't like other cultures.

I am being reslistic. Cultures differ but human souls are made from the same mould. We want similar things, even if it manifests in a different manner. Selfishness and greed are present in any human and tyranny can ocurr in any culture.
Magic has the inherent potential to do for Thedas what technology has done for us. However, whereas technology can be used and "built" by any man, magic is available only to a priviliged few. To increase dependency upon it is to give control over the lives and commodities of mundanes over to mages; and it will happen, humans are remarkably short sigthed; who will not even be doing anything, per say, illegal.
I'm not taking about mages sitting on thrones or mundanes in chains. It can happen simply because of mages looking out for themselves as any human is wanton to do. How do you screen for that?
In a society where some can conjure things out of nowhere and others can't, how do you prevent the mundanes from becoming second class citizens?

This is not something that can be tried and discard if it doesn't work. Good luck "freeing" humans from dependency on oil, for instance. All we can do is prevent it.

The world is burning because of Chantry abuses (when the Templars can't even follow their own laws).  Given that the entire system has fallen to pieces, you have an....odd....definition of 'fine job'.

The world is burning because the mages are uncoscious, selfish, uncomnpromising and unresonable.

*sigh* They want to be "free", I get it. But mundanes and mages just can't live side by side.
What is so wrong with the system that exists? Mages live far better than the majority of the peasants of medieval times.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 janvier 2013 - 08:05 .

[TEWR]

It's kinda up in the air whether it's Anders who starts combat or the Templars, now that I re-watched the scene. You could probably make a case either way, because it's not like Justice threw a fireball at the Templars in the scene.

He doesn't initiate combat right away, but you can be certain that it wouldn't have taken much for Justice to have done so in that moment.

[TEWR]

It would be different if the Halla Herder or the other Chiefs could vote and have the Keeper be forced to obey their decisions but there is no such measure. All they can do is pack up their stuff and leave the clan as we see many elves do by Act 3.

Eh, do you really think a woman that's being subtly influenced by a Demon is going to listen to the counsel of other people, when that Demon is preying on the woman's loss of what was at one point her surrogate daughter?

You might have a case if there was no demonic involvement regarding the clan in the Merrill arc, but it's not like Marethari was acting/thinking rationally. 

Besides, as the DAO origin tells us for the Dalish Elf the Keepers do listen to the words of the elders in the clan and actually don't try to override them. They wait for the hahrens to agree to the things on their own.

IanPolaris wrote...

 Screen for the best and most psychologically stable mages (and mundanes too) and you should be fine. Let's not forget that Templars also practice magic if you want to be really technical.

There was a time when Templars and Mages did work together to bring down Demons/Abominations. The Pride Demon codex says that bringing Mages along to fight Pride Demons and thinking that will grant you the upper hand is almost folly -- not because of the presence of Mages, but because of the abilities of a Pride Demon -- which says that the Mages were able to help the Templars in the past.

In essence, the Templars and Mages worked together, but over the years such a thing became rarer and rarer. It was tough work, but it was evidence of a better system.

Thrask even intimates that this is how the Circle is supposed to be, but because of Meredith the two groups are fighting one another.

Interestingly, the World of Thedas book tells us that when the Circle came to be and the Templars were instituted, the relationship between the two started off really strained. Obvious, of course, but interesting to note.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 janvier 2013 - 08:28 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
ONLY the aggressive response has the crossed swords.  That means that ONLY that response involves Hawke initiating combat which neatly proves my point.  Thanks.

Nope, it means that in one option, Hawke helps start the fight while the others it's all Anders.

Sorry but that is false.   In DA2, whenever a party member initiates combat (not just Hawke), the cut-scene just before combat makes that explicitly clear....and with Hawke you are WARNED you are the one initiating combat with the special crossed-swords icon.

In the case of Anders, he goes all "Vengeance-Glowy" yes, but he does not attack the templars in the cut-scene.  That means the Templars go aggro and thus attack first.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It would be different if the Halla Herder or the other Chiefs could vote and have the Keeper be forced to obey their decisions but there is no such measure. All they can do is pack up their stuff and leave the clan as we see many elves do by Act 3.

Eh, do you really think a woman that's being subtly influenced by a Demon is going to listen to the counsel of other people, when that Demon is preying on the woman's loss of what was at one point her surrogate daughter?

You might have a case if there was no demonic involvement regarding the clan in the Merrill arc, but it's not like Marethari was acting/thinking rationally. 

Besides, as the DAO origin tells us for the Dalish Elf the Keepers do listen to the words of the elders in the clan and actually don't try to override them. They wait for the hahrens to agree to the things on their own.

This is an excellent point, and DA2 does this a lot.  IMHO DA2 goes out of their way not only to slime mages and the post DAO arguments for greater mage autonomy, but to slime other cultures that had been used as a counterpoint to Andrastian Culture in this case the Dalish.

Why do I say slime?  It is clear for precisely the reason (proximinity to Audacity at the base of a mountain with a paper-thin Veil) that Meretheri and her clan are acting nothing like how we'd normally expect a Dalish clan to operate.  Yet the game presents it as though this is your 'typical Dalish clan' (admittedly without saying this but I think the implication is clear enough).

Likewise in Kirkwall, mages really go "demon" at the drop of a hat and really do seem be the demon magnets that the Chantry claims they are.  However, what the game does NOT tell you unless you dig through about a dozen very obscure "Enigma of Kirkwell" codex entries is that Kirkwall is build on what amounts to a Hellmouth where the Veil is so thin that demons can cross over and grant NON-mages magical powers (Lady Harriman was not a mage).

Yet another examples is "Night Terrors" where we get to visit a mage boy's dreams and Fenris uses this as an argument why all mages should be locked up (because that is what mages face every night).  Never mind that Feynriel is a somniari (sp?) which is an extremely rare, and powerful type of mage that draws exceptionally powerful demons (and in a place where the veil is already thin).

These and many other examples is why I tend to regard most of the DA2 writing as little more than pro-Templar propaganda courtesy bioware.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Eh, do you really think a woman that's being subtly influenced by a Demon is going to listen to the counsel of other people, when that Demon is preying on the woman's loss of what was at one point her surrogate daughter?

You might have a case if there was no demonic involvement regarding the clan in the Merrill arc, but it's not like Marethari was acting/thinking rationally. 

Besides, as the DAO origin tells us for the Dalish Elf the Keepers do listen to the words of the elders in the clan and actually don't try to override them. They wait for the hahrens to agree to the things on their own.

I see no evidence whatsoever that Marethari's actions are being influenced, that is merely speculation on your part. The demon may be talking to her, but there is no indication that she is listening.
What we do see is a Keeper making a decision that's bad for the clan, the elders trying to convince her, she sumarelly ignoring their pleas and finally, elves packing their stuff and leaving.
It doesn't matter if most of the time, this is not a problem. If there is no system that allows the mundanes of the clan to override the decisions of a Keep in a way that forces him or her to act in the manner decided by the majority, then it's mage supremacism, plain and simple.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 janvier 2013 - 12:28 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eh, do you really think a woman that's being subtly influenced by a Demon is going to listen to the counsel of other people, when that Demon is preying on the woman's loss of what was at one point her surrogate daughter?

You might have a case if there was no demonic involvement regarding the clan in the Merrill arc, but it's not like Marethari was acting/thinking rationally. 

Besides, as the DAO origin tells us for the Dalish Elf the Keepers do listen to the words of the elders in the clan and actually don't try to override them. They wait for the hahrens to agree to the things on their own. 

I see no evidence whatsoever that Marethari's actions are being influenced, that is merely speculation on your part. The demon may be talking to her, but there is no indication that she is listening.

It would explain why Marethari goes from thinking that Merrill will be tainted by the Eluvian in Act II (despite Merrill successfully cleansing the shard with blood magic) to thinking that Audacity could escape through the Eluvian if Merrill completed her research and restored this elven technology.

MisterJB wrote...

What we do see is a Keeper making a decision that's bad for the clan, the elders trying to convince her, she sumarelly ignoring their pleas and finally, elves packing their stuff and leaving.

We know that Master Ilen is planning on leaving with his pupils, but we don't know how many others in the clan openly disagreed with Marethari's decision to remain in Sundermount (or even if Ilen brought up the subject with Marethari and the others).

MisterJB wrote...

It doesn't matter if most of the time, this is not a problem. If there is no system that allows the mundanes of the clan to override the decisions of a Keep in a way that forces him or her to act in the manner decided by the majority, then it's mage supremacism, plain and simple. 

Except Dalish society isn't a magocracy, as we know from the story of the Dalish Origin.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
We know that Master Ilen is planning on leaving with his pupils, but we don't know how many others in the clan openly disagreed with Marethari's decision to remain in Sundermount (or even if Ilen brought up the subject with Marethari and the others).

We overhear at least one more elf that is disgruntled with the clan's inactivity, Merril comments that they should have moved years ago and all their halla are dead which makes them vulnerables.
And I believe we can safely assume that Ilen would have brought his concerns to Marethari before deciding to abandon his clan.

Except Dalish society isn't a magocracy, as we know from the story of the Dalish Origin.

They have one ruler that must always be a mage and who detains all the power, that's a magocracy. Oh sure, you can try to tell me about how the Chief Crafter and such have strong leadership roles but DA2 showed that, when push comes to shove, if the Keeper decides on something, it could even be destroying the clan little by little but there is no way for the mundane elves of the clan to override the Keeper's decision. All they can do is either wait for him or her to wise up or pack up their stuff and abandon the clan.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
We know that Master Ilen is planning on leaving with his pupils, but we don't know how many others in the clan openly disagreed with Marethari's decision to remain in Sundermount (or even if Ilen brought up the subject with Marethari and the others).

We overhear at least one more elf that is disgruntled with the clan's inactivity, Merril comments that they should have moved years ago and all their halla are dead which makes them vulnerables.
And I believe we can safely assume that Ilen would have brought his concerns to Marethari before deciding to abandon his clan.

We also know the clan can impeach their keeper...fatally if need be.  You also are forgetting that the ENTIRE TRIBE is living in the shadow of a thin veil and an active pride demon (and yes demons can affect even non-mages if the veil is thin enough).  You are also willfully forgetting that the clan had all their Halla die which meant that moving away was harder.

All of this means you can not extrapolate this one sick and twisted clan to the whole Dalish yet that is what you are doing.

Except Dalish society isn't a magocracy, as we know from the story of the Dalish Origin.

They have one ruler that must always be a mage and who detains all the power, that's a magocracy. Oh sure, you can try to tell me about how the Chief Crafter and such have strong leadership roles but DA2 showed that, when push comes to shove, if the Keeper decides on something, it could even be destroying the clan little by little but there is no way for the mundane elves of the clan to override the Keeper's decision. All they can do is either wait for him or her to wise up or pack up their stuff and abandon the clan.

That doesn't make it a magocracy.  In fact many people in a Dalish clan can have magic (you see this explicitly if you side with the Werewolves in DAO).  We also know from the collected lore that the Keeper does NOT have absolute power and in fact the clan can kill their own keeper if it's for the good of the clan.  The Keeper is first amoung equals and the Dalish consider magic to be the birthright of all elves (which has been unfortunately lost).

You have too much Tevinter on the brain.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
We also know the clan can impeach their keeper...fatally if need be.  You also are forgetting that the ENTIRE TRIBE is living in the shadow of a thin veil and an active pride demon (and yes demons can affect even non-mages if the veil is thin enough).  You are also willfully forgetting that the clan had all their Halla die which meant that moving away was harder.

All of this means you can not extrapolate this one sick and twisted clan to the whole Dalish yet that is what you are doing.

Right, they have three options. They can wait for their Keeper to wise up, abandon the clan or kill the Keeper in his sleep. Thank you, that makes it much better.
Unlike the human realms, all of the Dalish clans we have directly encountered or heard of have an identical power structure which means the Keeper is the absolute authority. Don't use the demon as a scapegoat, there is nothing in this situation that suggests its involvement. Marethari placed Merril over the rest of the clan, due to this, she stuck around Kirkwall for seven years hoping she would change her mind. The rest of the clan grew dissatisfied with this but due to their "legal system" having no clausule that can remove power from Marethari, they were powerless to act.

Hun...I mentioned the Halla. The fact that they are dead is just another reason why they should move. If they enter into conflict with Kirkwall, they will find it hard to escape. They have feet and people are abandoning the clan so, obviously, it's an option.

That doesn't make it a magocracy.  In fact many people in a Dalish clan can have magic (you see this explicitly if you side with the Werewolves in DAO).  We also know from the collected lore that the Keeper does NOT have absolute power and in fact the clan can kill their own keeper if it's for the good of the clan.  The Keeper is first amoung equals and the Dalish consider magic to be the birthright of all elves (which has been unfortunately lost).

You have too much Tevinter on the brain.

-Polaris

A magocracy is a system of government where the highest authority is a mage. In Dalish society, the highest authority is always a mage. Magocracies don't need to act like Tevinter to still be magocracies.
Even if the Keeper did not detain all power, it would still be a magocracy. And we know that the Keeper has all the power. Where is it stated that through vote; or anything, really; the mundane elves can legally override a decision from a Keeper? Why wouldn't the clan in DA2 do so if that was the case? The Chief Crafter is abandoning the clan, the Halla Herder has no Halla left, I'd say this qualifies as an emergency.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 janvier 2013 - 08:49 .

[dragonflight288]

A magocracy is a system of government where the highest authority is a mage. In Dalish society, the highest authority is always a mage. Magocracies don't need to act like Tevinter to still be magocracies.
Even if the Keeper did not detain all power, it would still be a magocracy. And we know that the Keeper has all the power. Where is it stated that through vote; or anything, really; the mundane elves can legally override a decision from a Keeper? Why wouldn't the clan in DA2 do so if that was the case? The Chief Crafter is abandoning the clan, the Halla Herder has no Halla left, I'd say this qualifies as an emergency.

Not always. In the Dalish Origin, the Keeper advices and is taken very seriously, but the elders make just as many decisions for the clan than the Keeper. The Keeper's role is keeping the dalish lore and history, and taking on a First to pass on that knowledge.

A keeper may offer advice and lead a clan, but the elders lead the clan just as much.

When you think about it, the Dalish clan's problems would have been solved in Kirkwall if every clan had a working eluvian. Simply send in a call for more Halla to other clans and explain your situation, and less than a year later, the nearest clan can be there with more halla and the dalish can leave Kirkwall entirely.

[MisterJB]

And what decisions would those be? Perform Tamlen's funeral?
It's obvious the elders don't lead the clan just as much if they can't get it to move in seven years despite how obviously harmful staying is.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

And what decisions would those be? Perform Tamlen's funeral?
It's obvious the elders don't lead the clan just as much if they can't get it to move in seven years despite how obviously harmful staying is.

Warning: Sarcasm Alert. Be informed, Sarcasm Alert.

Yes, I'm sure after a clan loses all its Halla that its perfectly reasonable to have the elders decide to harness the Hunters to the Aravel and inform the elderly to perform body-guard duties. I'm also more than sure that Aravels holding everything a clan possesses are very light and easy to stop once momentum has got them moving. :innocent:

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

And what decisions would those be? Perform Tamlen's funeral?
It's obvious the elders don't lead the clan just as much if they can't get it to move in seven years despite how obviously harmful staying is.

The chief hunter decides how and where to hunt.  The Halla Keeper has absolute say over the clan's logistics because without the Halla the clan goes nowhere, and it's very clear that the clan craftsmaster has total control over the logistics (arms, armaments, etc) of the clan.  In fact both Merethari and Zathrien both defer to their craftsmasters when you ask for supplies.

The point is that the keeper may be the most important person in the clan, but he or she is first among equals and is given deference because of their role (as keeper of the lost lore) and NOT because he or she is a magician.  Indeed, a Shem visiting a clan wouldn't even know most likely the keeper or their first was a mage unless it was pointed out.  This is also reinforced the first time you meet Merrill.  The fact that keepers are mages is not commonly known and keepers (and their firsts) don't rule because of their magic.  Their magic is part of their lore.  Nothing more.

-Polaris

[shepard1038]

Lol So if the Halla decide to go to a volcano, the clan follow the Halla?

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

Lol So if the Halla decide to go to a volcano, the clan follow the Halla?

Not the Halla, the Halla herder, and no.  The point is that in the Dalish clans no one has absolute power.  Everyone is answerable to the clan (yes even the Keeper).  That means this is not a magocracy.  Those that claim this have too much Tevinter on the brain.

-Polaris