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[shepard1038]

IanPolaris wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

Lol So if the Halla decide to go to a volcano, the clan follow the Halla?

Not the Halla, the Halla herder, and no.  The point is that in the Dalish clans no one has absolute power.  Everyone is answerable to the clan (yes even the Keeper).  That means this is not a magocracy.  Those that claim this have too much Tevinter on the brain.

-Polaris

Actually the Halla tell the Halla Keeper where to go and in exchange they take care of the Halla. So the Halla do tell the clan where to go.

Modifié par shepard1038, 01 février 2013 - 12:00 .

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Warning: Sarcasm Alert. Be informed, Sarcasm Alert.

Yes,
I'm sure after a clan loses all its Halla that its perfectly reasonable
to have the elders decide to harness the Hunters to the Aravel and
inform the elderly to perform body-guard duties. I'm also more than sure
that Aravels holding everything a clan possesses are very light and
easy to stop once momentum has got them moving. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

They have legs. Pack up what you can carry, hide what you can't and won't spoil and start walking. The Chief Crafter is abandoning the clan so, obviously, that's an option.

IanPolaris wrote...
The Halla Keeper has absolute say over the clan's logistics because without the Halla the clan goes nowhere,

Right, I wonder what that Halla Keeper was doing while Marethari decided to camp in the same spot for seven years losing people and supplies little by little, risk angering the nearby City-State, lose their very Halla.
The point is that while the Keeper might commonly delegate certain tasks to the appropriate people, if she decides something, it doesn't matter how harmful it may be for the rest of the clan. The other elves have no legal way to override her order, all they can do is hope she will wise up or pack their things and abandon the clan. Do you think that King Meghren personally oversaw the logistics of arming chevaliers? And yet, he was still a tyrant.

And I'll like a list of the tasks performed by a Lore Keeper that a mundane couldn't perform thus justifying why it must always be a mage.
It's a magocracy and an authoritarian at that.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 février 2013 - 12:24 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Warning: Sarcasm Alert. Be informed, Sarcasm Alert.

Yes,
I'm sure after a clan loses all its Halla that its perfectly reasonable
to have the elders decide to harness the Hunters to the Aravel and
inform the elderly to perform body-guard duties. I'm also more than sure
that Aravels holding everything a clan possesses are very light and
easy to stop once momentum has got them moving.

They have legs. Pack up what you can carry, hide what you can't and won't spoil and start walking. The Chief Crafter is abandoning the clan so, obviously, that's an option.

IanPolaris wrote...
The Halla Keeper has absolute say over the clan's logistics because without the Halla the clan goes nowhere,

Right, I wonder what that Halla Keeper was doing while Marethari decided to camp in the same spot for seven years losing people and supplies little by little, risk angering the nearby City-State, lose their very Halla.
The point is that while the Keeper might commonly delegate certain tasks to the appropriate people, if she decides something, it doesn't matter how harmful it may be for the rest of the clan. The other elves have no legal way to override her order, all they can do is hope she will wise up or pack their things and abandon the clan. Do you think that King Meghren personally oversaw the logistics of arming chevaliers? And yet, he was still a tyrant.

And I'll like a list of the tasks performed by a Lore Keeper that a mundane couldn't perform thus justifying why it must always be a mage.
It's a magocracy and an authoritarian at that.

You are wrong.  In the first place the clan at the base of Sundermount is not a representative example of how Dalish Clans operate.  It is a clan that is suffering from some unusual circumstances.

DA2 does that a lot.  DA2 constantly invites a lot of wrong generalizations based on data that is not representative.

The other reason you are wrong is there is absolutely NO evidence that Merethari (or any other keeper) rules with the kind of absolute authority that you claim.  In fact we consistantly see the opposite.  It's just that Merethari prior to arriving in Kirkwall was an old and respected keeper and the clan tends to give her the benefit of the doubt.  However Merethari is not the final word or law with the Dalish.  The Dalish don't work that way.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Where is it stated that through vote; or anything, really; the mundane elves can legally override a decision from a Keeper?

DAO.

[BlueMagitek]

Well, if I recall from the Dalish Origin, the Warden's parents had to run away from their previous clan because their Keeper disagreed with their union. The Keeper also seems to decide when and where to go, what to do with ancient artifacts (found or already in possession of the Dalish at the time), who to choose as a First (Zath, in a rather forward thinking example, kept Lanaya as his despite her tainted background), how to treat humans they stumble across, etc.

So they seem to serve as both a chief and shaman, really. I don't see what power is left except in auxiliary positions.

Also, please stop slaughtering all the Dalish. They're running out of clans. :/

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, if I recall from the Dalish Origin, the Warden's parents had to run away from their previous clan because their Keeper disagreed with their union.

The Warden's father was the previous Keeper. And he respected the elders' word that he and his love -- a great hunter -- couldn't get married, until such a time as the elders themselves approved of the notion.

The Keeper also seems to decide when and where to go,

Actually, the halla are the ones who decide where to go. The Keepers decide on when, usually, but will listen to the counsel of other people if it affects the decision. Marethari listened to Duncan's word on the Darkspawn, while also factoring in the nearby human village.

what to do with ancient artifacts (found or already in possession of the Dalish at the time),

Sort of. The ancient artifacts belong to the entire Elven community -- both in the clan and the others -- and they're spread throughout when needed. Any elf can invoke an ancient Dalish rite to use one temporarily, in the vein of a favor for a favor.

The Keepers tend to be the ones who study new artifacts, which makes sense as a lot of the artifacts and treasures are magical in nature. But Marethari made it known she never wanted to study the Eluvians in both DAO and DAII.

Firsts also tend to assist in the research.

who to choose as a First (Zath, in a rather forward thinking example, kept Lanaya as his despite her tainted background), how to treat humans they stumble across, etc.

The first is correct. The second is dependant on the clan. That said, most Dalish Elves just want to be left alone. Only a fringe element of the current Dalish Elves actually terrorize humans.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 février 2013 - 04:15 .

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Where is it stated that through vote; or anything, really; the mundane elves can legally override a decision from a Keeper?

DAO.

Not only that, but the clan can execute a keeper that is endangering the clan.  Merrill says this directly if you ask if Dalish Keepers can get possessed.

If you play a Dalish Warden and read the lore, it's very clear that the Keeper is the most important person in the clan, but not the ulimate boss.  She is first amoung equals (the Hahren, Cheif Hunter, Chief Crafter, and Halla Keeper are also extremely important) and the Keeper's word is generally followed, but it is far from law.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Warden's father was the previous Keeper. And he respected the elders' word that he and his love -- a great hunter -- couldn't get married, until such a time as the elders themselves approved of the notion.

Actually, the halla are the ones who decide where to go. The Keepers decide on when, usually, but will listen to the counsel of other people if it affects the decision. Marethari listened to Duncan's word on the Darkspawn, while also factoring in the nearby human village.

Sort of. The ancient artifacts belong to the entire Elven community -- both in the clan and the others -- and they're spread throughout when needed. Any elf can invoke an ancient Dalish rite to use one temporarily, in the vein of a favor for a favor.

The Keepers tend to be the ones who study new artifacts, which makes sense as a lot of the artifacts and treasures are magical in nature. But Marethari made it known she never wanted to study the Eluvians in both DAO and DAII.

Firsts also tend to assist in the research.

The first is correct. The second is dependant on the clan. That said, most Dalish Elves just want to be left alone. Only a fringe element of the current Dalish Elves actually terrorize humans.

Was that it?  I only recall things running away from things and Keeper disapproval and the occassional musical number about wanting more.  Still, it has been a very long time since my !RenegadeDalish run, so I'll take your word for it.

Duncan isn't a person though, he's a Grey Warden.  It's like not assuming that the guy crashing out of a window is Chad from accounting.  The Dalish, at least, get listening to people who know what they're talking about right (in most cases, see Duncan & Flemeth).  Otherwise nobody would listen to a Shem. :/

I only recall the one use of that in one of Merrill's quest.  Did she not go to the Keeper, the one who held the artifact in question?

The Mirror cost her the Warden, Tamlen and did a complete 180 on her First's personality.  I don't blame her for not wanting to investigate the thing.  But then, who knows what would have happened had Tamlen and Warden not ruined everything?

Yes, so we have them acting as the leader of the Clan, with additional attributes usually given to the Shaman in the area of magic.  The Keeper also belongs to the Elders (or will in the vast majority of cases) who determine marriage, apparently.  Lot of power for one person. 

Also, you didn't say anything about the Dalish running out of clans.  Why do you want them all gone? D=

[TEWR]

Otherwise nobody would listen to a Shem

It really depends on the human in question and whether they've proven themselves friends to the Dalish. Hawke's able to get some of the Dalish to treat him decently -- while others just go "Shemlen!".

The Mirror cost her the Warden, Tamlen and did a complete 180 on her First's personality.

The Taint cost her the Warden and Tamlen, and Merrill's personality is consistent.

The Keeper also belongs to the Elders (or will in the vast majority of cases) who determine marriage, apparently. Lot of power for one person.

The Keepers do not determine marriages. That's not told to us anywhere in game. Cammen and Gheyna, while planning to get married, were never revealed to have been arranged such by the Keeper. In fact, I'm not even certain they do arranged marriages. Cammen actually loved Gheyna, so it's possible that wasn't an arranged marriage.

And as I said, Mahariel's father -- the Keeper before Marethari -- respected the word of the hahrens on that they could not marry each other, until such time as the hahrens approved of the idea. He waited.

However, it is true that some of the elders can be mages themselves. The Tale of Iloren tells us this and we see other Mages present in both DAO and DAII amongst the Dalish.

As for killing the Dalish, I'm actually opposed to it being done again.

[DPSSOC]

IanPolaris wrote...
The chief hunter decides how and where to hunt.  The Halla Keeper has absolute say over the clan's logistics because without the Halla the clan goes nowhere, and it's very clear that the clan craftsmaster has total control over the logistics (arms, armaments, etc) of the clan.  In fact both Merethari and Zathrien both defer to their craftsmasters when you ask for supplies.

The point is that the keeper may be the most important person in the clan, but he or she is first among equals and is given deference because of their role (as keeper of the lost lore) and NOT because he or she is a magician.

 

Isn't that a lot like saying the Prime Minister isn't in charge because there are Ministers of Defense, Transportation, Agriculture, and Finance?  The fact that a leader defers to people who are better qualified on certain matters doesn't make them any less of a leader, and unless you can point out how the Dalish can over rule the decision of a Keeper without violently removing them from their position you fail to establish that a Keeper does not have absolute authourity.

IanPolaris wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
Lol So if the Halla decide to go to a volcano, the clan follow the Halla?

Not the Halla, the Halla herder, and no. The point is that in the Dalish clans no one has absolute power. Everyone is answerable to the clan (yes even the Keeper). That means this is not a magocracy. Those that claim this have too much Tevinter on the brain.

-Polaris

Ok here's a question, if Marethari can just dictate that the clan is leaving in DA:O, and Zathrian can dictate that the clan is not leaving, and Marethari can dictate that the clan is not leaving in DA2, exactly how do they not have absolute authourity?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Where is it stated that through vote; or anything, really; the mundane elves can legally override a decision from a Keeper?

DAO.

Care to be slightly more specific? It's been a while but I don't remember anything in DA:O that suggested Marethari and Zathrian were not the people in charge.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It really depends on the human in question and whether they've proven themselves friends to the Dalish. Hawke's able to get some of the Dalish to treat him decently -- while others just go "Shemlen!".

The Taint cost her the Warden and Tamlen, and Merrill's personality is consistent.

The Keepers do not determine marriages. That's not told to us anywhere in game. Cammen and Gheyna, while planning to get married, were never revealed to have been arranged such by the Keeper. In fact, I'm not even certain they do arranged marriages. Cammen actually loved Gheyna, so it's possible that wasn't an arranged marriage.

And as I said, Mahariel's father -- the Keeper before Marethari -- respected the word of the hahrens on that they could not marry each other, until such time as the hahrens approved of the idea. He waited.

However, it is true that some of the elders can be mages themselves. The Tale of Iloren tells us this and we see other Mages present in both DAO and DAII amongst the Dalish.

As for killing the Dalish, I'm actually opposed to it being done again.

Yeah, those elves be racists.  Of course, when all of your dogma is about how they cost you your people's immortality and being around them lowers your lifespan, I can see why.

I don't believe the stickler for rules Merrill I remember is the same as ditzy "No Keeper, you are the demons" Merrill.  However this is not the place for it.  It cost her a total Bro and the crown jewel of the Dalish.

You just told me the Elders did!  And Zathy was like, pretty ancient.  Pretty sure he was an Elder.  Besides, when your people are being lycanthoped, you gotta get more people.  Pretty simple solution.

Yes, but Marthari didn't.  At least, not in DA2.  And "respected" doesn't mean "followed".  You can respect the advice of a subordinate, but you still aren't following their command. 

I thought it was canon that the Dalish (and elves in general) had fewer mages and as such had to try and divvy up their mage population to keep a supply of Firsts for Keepers.

Then why does the option keep coming up? 

[TEWR]

I don't believe the stickler for rules Merrill I remember is the same as ditzy "No Keeper, you are the demons" Merrill. However this is not the place for it

If not a Merrill thread, then where else?

And if you talk to her in DAO, she shows interest in the mirror. And if you pick an option in DAII, you'll find that she did abide by the rules regarding researching the mirror fragment by approaching the Keeper for assistance -- which happened before she learned blood magic. When she refused, they got into an argument that led to them having a falling out, where Merrill arguably broke the rules.

I say arguably because the whole mantra of the Dalish is to recover their ancient past. So while you may say she disobeyed the rules, others might say she was obeying them. Again, consistent. It grows murky once she decided to study it for you, perhaps, but that doesn't mean she just went "LOL nope."

You just told me the Elders did! And Zathy was like, pretty ancient. Pretty sure he was an Elder. Besides, when your people are being lycanthoped, you gotta get more people. Pretty simple solution.

The Elders do, but they're not all Mages. And even so, the Keepers aren't the ones in charge of the marriages, assuming arranged marriages happen at all in the clans. Some are mages -- Elora, for instance -- which puts them at an equal position I'd argue.

Yes, but Marthari didn't. At least, not in DA2. And "respected" doesn't mean "followed". You can respect the advice of a subordinate, but you still aren't following their command.

I don't know if they'd be considered subordinates, since some of the Elders are Mages.

I thought it was canon that the Dalish (and elves in general) had fewer mages and as such had to try and divvy up their mage population to keep a supply of Firsts for Keepers.

Fewer Mages doesn't necessarily mean "only one every 30 years". We don't even know how many clans are out there.

Then why does the option keep coming up?

Aliens. =P

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 février 2013 - 04:57 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Where is it stated that through vote; or anything, really; the mundane elves can legally override a decision from a Keeper?

DAO.

Basically, what DPSSOC said.
Could you be more specific? People keep remarking how much the Dalish Origins shows us how the Keepers don't have absolute authority but I just can't find any evidence of that.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The chief hunter decides how and where to hunt.  The Halla Keeper has absolute say over the clan's logistics because without the Halla the clan goes nowhere, and it's very clear that the clan craftsmaster has total control over the logistics (arms, armaments, etc) of the clan.  In fact both Merethari and Zathrien both defer to their craftsmasters when you ask for supplies.

The point is that the keeper may be the most important person in the clan, but he or she is first among equals and is given deference because of their role (as keeper of the lost lore) and NOT because he or she is a magician.

 

Isn't that a lot like saying the Prime Minister isn't in charge because there are Ministers of Defense, Transportation, Agriculture, and Finance?  The fact that a leader defers to people who are better qualified on certain matters doesn't make them any less of a leader, and unless you can point out how the Dalish can over rule the decision of a Keeper without violently removing them from their position you fail to establish that a Keeper does not have absolute authourity.

It's an example of Ian pointing out that the Dalish clan isn't a dictatorship, where everyone capitulates to the rule of one single person (which seems to be the case for many human societies where Kings and Queens rule over the people). The backstory of the Dalish Warden is another example of the elders refusing to sanction a relationship between the Keeper and a hunter, despite the former's station in the clan.

DPSSOC wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Not the Halla, the Halla herder, and no. The point is that in the Dalish clans no one has absolute power. Everyone is answerable to the clan (yes even the Keeper). That means this is not a magocracy. Those that claim this have too much Tevinter on the brain.

-Polaris

Ok here's a question, if Marethari can just dictate that the clan is leaving in DA:O, and Zathrian can dictate that the clan is not leaving, and Marethari can dictate that the clan is not leaving in DA2, exactly how do they not have absolute authourity?

Marethari informs the Dalish protagonist that they are leaving because a group of humans is forming to attack the clan (whether or not the humans were killed), while the clan is initially stranded in Sundermount because they lack some supplies and lost their Halla.

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DAO.

Care to be slightly more specific? It's been a while but I don't remember anything in DA:O that suggested Marethari and Zathrian were not the people in charge.

Having the authority to say "no" to the Keeper disproves the idea that Keepers are little more than dictators of the clan; in other words, it's not a magocracy like the Tevinter Imperium. In fact, Merrill's refusal to abide by Marethari's (baseless) opinion of the Eluvian, and her decision to leave the clan (which was also done by Velanna, Feynriel's mother Arianni, and Zevran's mother), shows that the elves can freely leave the clan, and go on their own path.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Having the authority to say "no" to the Keeper disproves the idea that Keepers are little more than dictators of the clan; in other words, it's not a magocracy like the Tevinter Imperium. In fact, Merrill's refusal to abide by Marethari's (baseless) opinion of the Eluvian, and her decision to leave the clan (which was also done by Velanna, Feynriel's mother Arianni, and Zevran's mother), shows that the elves can freely leave the clan, and go on their own path.

If the only path you have open before you should you disagree with the Keeper is self imposed exile, that's still an autocracy.
That is EXACTLY the problem. If the clan disagrees with the Keeper on something, they have no choice, no one to appeal to in order to strengthen their position or force the Keeper to abide by their decisions even if it something as intimate as marriage.
All they can do is hope the Keeper changes his or her mind or abandon the clan.

If there is some system that allows a decision of the Keeper to be overriden, please, point it to me.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 février 2013 - 09:12 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Having the authority to say "no" to the Keeper disproves the idea that Keepers are little more than dictators of the clan; in other words, it's not a magocracy like the Tevinter Imperium. In fact, Merrill's refusal to abide by Marethari's (baseless) opinion of the Eluvian, and her decision to leave the clan (which was also done by Velanna, Feynriel's mother Arianni, and Zevran's mother), shows that the elves can freely leave the clan, and go on their own path.

If the only path you have open before you should you disagree with the Keeper is self imposed exile, that's still an autocracy.
That is EXACTLY the problem. If the clan disagrees with the Keeper on something, they have no choice, no one to appeal to in order to strengthen their position or force the Keeper to abide by their decisions even if it something as intimate as marriage.
All they can do is hope the Keeper changes his or her mind or abandon the clan.

If there is some system that allows a decision of the Keeper to be overriden, please, point it to me.

You are wrong.  You can disagree with the keeper and stay with the clan.  Of course most keepers are respected enough and have enough clout that if you disagree with the keeper, most of the clan is likely to disagree with you as well.  Technically Merrill wasn't forced into exile at all.   She chose exile rather than to continue to disagree with her keeper.  Exile was always Merrill's choice.  We also see that in the story of the Dalish Warden.  Had the Warden's father (who was keeper) had the power you think, he could have married his sweetheard and that would have been that.

It's proof positive that Keeper's don't have that sort of absolute power.  The Keeper is first amoung equals in what amounts to a clan-chief structure or oligarchy.  That is a far cry from the mage-diactorship that you are falsely claiming.  I think you have too much Tevinter on the brain to the point where any mage with any authority brings out the "Magister" reflex.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
You can disagree with the keeper and stay with the clan.  Of course most keepers are respected enough and have enough clout that if you disagree with the keeper, most of the clan is likely to disagree with you as well.  Technically Merrill wasn't forced into exile at all.   She chose exile rather than to continue to disagree with her keeper.  Exile was always Merrill's choice.

That is still a "my way or the highway" attitude. You basically act like the Keeper wishes you to do or you abandon the clan.
And by Act 3 you can her several elves disgruntled over the fact the clan hasn't moved in seven years. Even the Chieft Crafter is leaving. You'd think that in that situation, where the Keeper is choosing something that is obviously harmful to the clan, there would be a way for the majority to override her decision. Apparently not

And I said "self-imposed exile"

We also see that in the story of the Dalish Warden.  Had the Warden's father (who was keeper) had the power you think, he could have married his sweetheard and that would have been that.

No, because the Warden's parents were from different clans and the ones who disagreed with the match were the elders belonging to his mother's over whom the Warden's father would have no authority.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You can disagree with the keeper and stay with the clan.  Of course most keepers are respected enough and have enough clout that if you disagree with the keeper, most of the clan is likely to disagree with you as well.  Technically Merrill wasn't forced into exile at all.   She chose exile rather than to continue to disagree with her keeper.  Exile was always Merrill's choice.

That is still a "my way or the highway" attitude. You basically act like the Keeper wishes you to do or you abandon the clan.
And by Act 3 you can her several elves disgruntled over the fact the clan hasn't moved in seven years. Even the Chieft Crafter is leaving. You'd think that in that situation, where the Keeper is choosing something that is obviously harmful to the clan, there would be a way for the majority to override her decision. Apparently not

And I said "self-imposed exile"

You are wrong even here.  You can disagree with the keeper and still stay in the clan.  Merrill chose not to.  This is nothing like a mage-dictatorship that you claim.  The Dalish clans are nothing like Tevinter.

We also see that in the story of the Dalish Warden.  Had the Warden's father (who was keeper) had the power you think, he could have married his sweetheard and that would have been that.

No, because the Warden's parents were from different clans and the ones who disagreed with the match were the elders belonging to his mother's over whom the Warden's father would have no authority.

And she could have walked away from her clan and chose not to.  You want to paint the Dalish keepers as these autocratic iron-fisted magisters and they aren't and no amount of misunderstanding on your part will make that true.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

It's like I'm beating my head against a wall here.
Yes, the Keepers are not bleeding little boys at parties to entertain themselves. That's a point for them.
But if they set their minds on something, there is nothing the other elves can do to legally override their decisions regardless of how many of them disagree with the Keeper. They either do what s/he has chosen and remain with the clan, or they abandon it. That makes it an autocracy.
And since the position of a Keeper can only be occupied by a mage, that makes the dalish society an autocratic magocracy.

It doesn't matter if most of the time this is not a problem. It is still exactly that, an autocratic magocracy.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

It's like I'm beating my head against a wall here.
Yes, the Keepers are not bleeding little boys at parties to entertain themselves. That's a point for them.
But if they set their minds on something, there is nothing the other elves can do to legally override their decisions regardless of how many of them disagree with the Keeper. They either do what s/he has chosen and remain with the clan, or they abandon it. That makes it an autocracy.
And since the position of a Keeper can only be occupied by a mage, that makes the dalish society an autocratic magocracy.

It doesn't matter if most of the time this is not a problem. It is still exactly that, an autocratic magocracy.

You are wrong.  Ultimately (and Merrill confirms this) if enough of the clan doesn't agree with the Keeper, they can kill the keeper.  Think of it as the ulimate impeachment.  The Dalish keepers are NOT autocratic magisters no matter how often and hard you try to paint them that way.

For that matter there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a mage having political power.  Mages are no better but no worse in that regard than anyone else.  Those that think otherwise have too much Tevinter on the brain.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Because the possibility of a coup d'etat somehow makes an autocracy not an autocracy? That's preposterous.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with a mage having a political power but lots of things intrinsically wrong with a system where ONLY mages are considered qualified to have politic power.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If not a Merrill thread, then where else?

And if you talk to her in DAO, she shows interest in the mirror. And if you pick an option in DAII, you'll find that she did abide by the rules regarding researching the mirror fragment by approaching the Keeper for assistance -- which happened before she learned blood magic. When she refused, they got into an argument that led to them having a falling out, where Merrill arguably broke the rules.

I say arguably because the whole mantra of the Dalish is to recover their ancient past. So while you may say she disobeyed the rules, others might say she was obeying them. Again, consistent. It grows murky once she decided to study it for you, perhaps, but that doesn't mean she just went "LOL nope."

The Elders do, but they're not all Mages. And even so, the Keepers aren't the ones in charge of the marriages, assuming arranged marriages happen at all in the clans. Some are mages -- Elora, for instance -- which puts them at an equal position I'd argue.

I don't know if they'd be considered subordinates, since some of the Elders are Mages.

Fewer Mages doesn't necessarily mean "only one every 30 years". We don't even know how many clans are out there.

Aliens. =P

Well why don't we just discuss everything about Merrill here then?

Alright, so Merrill would have agreed with Loghain's decision to leave the King to his folly.  After all, it resulted in the resurrection of the Dalish.  She's definately an "ends justify the means" elf.  This would have put her at odds with the Warden, who almost certainly did not want to deal with more Shems.  Which is what caused the Dragon Break and Merrill to lose the rest of her character while emphasizing a personality there was barely a glimmer of.

Some pieces of the past are just better off buried.  Like all that Red Lyrium idols.  You're right, it is the duty of the Keepers to try and reach the past, but they also have a duty to their current people.  When Merrill decided to ignore the latter for the former, she violated her duties as a First.

Yes, but there's a reason that the executive branch leader tends to not also be a member of the legislative branch or the judicial branch while they hold power.  The Keeper position has their hands in every pot, so to speak.

I don't think I got my point across.
Leader:  We should do X.
Subordinate:  X is unwise given condition Y.
Leader:  Hmm, you are right, we shall do Z.

Just because Leader changed his mind doesn't mean Subordinate has power over him.  It doesn't have anything to do with both of them being mages.

Well they have to shuffle their people together to ensure that each one has a first, so I wouldn't say that there's a lot of them.

I guess those dwarves did dig too high and too frugal indeed. :/

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Because the possibility of a coup d'etat somehow makes an autocracy not an autocracy? That's preposterous.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with a mage having a political power but lots of things intrinsically wrong with a system where ONLY mages are considered qualified to have politic power.

An Impeachment is not a coup d'etat.  Keepers can very clearly be impeached, and the game verifies this.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 01 février 2013 - 11:00 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
An Impeachment is not a coup d'etat.  Keepers can very clearly be impeached, and the game verifies this.
-Polaris

Killing the Keeper because you are unhappy with the way he or she is ruling is a coup d'etat. Let's forego removal from office and go straight to ritualistic murder.
In fact, being unable to remove the leader from his office other than through force of arms is a characteristic of an autocracy.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
An Impeachment is not a coup d'etat.  Keepers can very clearly be impeached, and the game verifies this.
-Polaris

Killing the Keeper because you are unhappy with the way he or she is ruling is a coup d'etat. Let's forego removal from office and go straight to ritualistic murder.
In fact, being unable to remove the leader from his office other than through force of arms is a characteristic of an autocracy.

No it's not.  A coup d'etat refers to a military takeover of questionable legality (and the former leader isn't always killed).  Killing the keeper (or removing them) by the decision of the clan (and hunting and killing the keeper if necessary) is impeachment.

You are mistaken and frankly confused about this.

-Polaris