599 réponses à ce sujet

[devSin]

frudi wrote...

So, now that we've established that I do in fact still love ME3, let's move on to what it was that did make me lose faith in Bioware. Basically, it boils down to the ending, several aspects of it in fact - how it was written, how it made me feel and how Bioware handled the backlash.

I wish I could have enjoyed ME3 the same way you seem to (I don't play multiplayer, and the writing along the critical path is just too mediocre and awkward, along with the exasperating interludes of pointless, aggravating dream sequences and forced emotional outbursts), but your subsequent points hit home in a lot of ways.

I agree that a lot of the issue stems in how poorly conceived and executed this plot was, how demoralizing and unsatisfying the ending was to a trilogy in which many have sunk hundreds of hours over several years (and how stupid it made you feel to have this sort of reaction to a piece of entertainment), and how tone-deaf and unsympathetic their response was, from their dispassionate statements to the lack of defense of their customers to their complete inability to even pretend to show any sort of empathy with those who were legitimately disappointed and disheartened by the whole thing.

The fact is, I no longer have the desire to sink my time and emotions into something where there's now a history of having such an investment disregarded so entirely. That's something that is going to be much harder to recover from than simply making "one bad product".

Modifié par devSin, 04 janvier 2013 - 01:18 .

[darkway1]

NO,I do not trust Bioware any more......I'm one of those people who actually liked DA2,loved the characters and story.....however the overall presentation and game world of DA2 was blatantly sparse,the game felt and looked rushed.

Then came SWTOR,which lacked basic feature's,poor endgame and equally poor PVP,these features are what justify a subscription fee any yet the game didn't deliver them,how on earth do you keep subs when you have no content.???

Mass Effect3 was the one franchise I thought was untouchable but sadly fell victim to the same fate as previous titles,a rushed,poorly delivered ending that not only ends Shepard's story but destroy's the franchise.....how can you possibly maintain continuity if the game has multiple endings?

Bioware's game quality,story,development and artistic integrity all seem to fall victim to the DEADLINE,which basically means,if the product is not finished......TOUGH,it's get boxed and shipped regardless.......the game will then get finished at the gamers expense via DLC.

I now see Bioware as a company that is unable to look at it's self in an unbiased way,no doubt having a laugh and a joke about Bioware fans being overly passionate etc,never quite able to grasp that there are genuine reasons why gamers are hacked off.Personally I will never trust Bioware again,until a representative is willing to step forward and acknowledge/answer some of the fans obvious questions.

[Dragon_Claw]

frudi wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...
This kinda leads to another question that I'm reticent to ask, but it's related:

This kind of sentiment is brought up quite a bit, and more power to you for doing so. But for people who claim to be huge fans who had faith in the company and trusted them to release product that you wouldn't be disappointed in, sometimes all it takes is one bad product to make you change your mind.

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith?

To even begin to answer your question, I must first note that, at least as far as my relation to Bioware is concerned, your premise is actually wrong - I did not lose my trust in Bioware because ME3 was a bad game. Because it wasn't, not for me. I genuinely loved the game, except for the ending, even despite its quite a number of flaws - those I can overlook, as I've done with every Bioware game before. And despite my original scepticism, I've come to genuinely love the game's multiplayer and have sunk untold hours into it.

So, now that we've established that I do in fact still love ME3, let's move on to what it was that did make me lose faith in Bioware. Basically, it boils down to the ending, several aspects of it in fact - how it was written, how it made me feel and how Bioware handled the backlash.

1. the writing... I'm sorry, but it was horrendous, there's no way to be gentle or diplomatic about this. The whole Crucible plot was already sketchy and full of issues, but I could have swallowed it if the damn thing just did what was expected of it. But once Shepard collapsed at the console, the narrative just went completely of the rails. This isn't the place to rehash all the (virtual) ink that has already been spilled over this, so let me just say that I have absolutely no trust in the writing ability of whoever wrote that, at least as far as writing a coherent main plot and its resolution is concerned.
The problem has since been further compounded by release of first the Extended Cut and then Leviathan DLCs, which while both generally good and enjoyable, in my mind just piled even more nonsense on the already big pile of it that is the ending of ME3.
Combined with the all-over-the-place nature of the main overarching plot through the three ME games, I simply have to wonder if Bioware are, at this point, even capable of producing a satisfying and coherent main plot for a new series of games, especially in the ME-verse.

2. the emotional impact of the ending... while this is clearly related to the writing, I will handle it separately since it is a very important issue and because my first point was focused mostly on the rational side of it, not emotional.
I don't demand a necessarily happy experience from my games, I am quite comfortable with tragedy and sadness and any other 'negative' induced emotions in my entertainment. In fact I would say I actually prefer the emotional impact of sad and tragic stories over happy ones, at least in terms of memorability. A perfect example would be The Walking Dead game, which after a roller coaster ride of emotions in the end left me sad and emotionally drained... but also satisfied and impressed with its ability to 'get to me'. And most importantly, the day after finishing it I didn't wake up feeling like I had the will to live sucked out of me.
On the other hand, that's exactly how I felt for days after finishing ME3, it actually took me weeks to get fully back to normal. Now, kudos to Bioware for managing to get such a strong emotional reaction out of me... but I don't play games to get literally depressed by them! Seriously, a game should not make you feel like the love of your life just dumped you for your best friend, stole your car and ran over your dog as she backed said car down your driveway. And it certainly shouldn't force you to seek refuge in fanfiction and headcanon just to get over the lingering depression and reach some emotional closure.

3. Bioware's reaction... from the point of view of a long-time Bioware fan, their reaction was simply awful, just a text-book case of how to alienate your fanbase. From simply ignoring the issue at first, through the condescending, dismissive and vague press releases that followed, to the eventual announcement of the EC while at the same time making it clear that "we will not be discussing the ending"... even with the fans that actually bother to come to conventions just to meet them. Every single step of their post-ending PR campaign just oozed this sense that they simply do not care for the opinions and arguments of their fans. Worse, it made it seem like they take us for granted, that we should either learn to appreciate their great vision or just move the f*ck on.
But the worst part is, I know that that is not how most of the people at Bioware feel, or at least I'm convinced that they don't. And that just makes the disconnect all the worse... Bioware no longer seems like a collection of passionate people making great games for their fans, it seems like a greedy corporation stifling its own employees' talents and passions.

***
If you, Stan, or anyone else for that matter, has managed to reach this far... first, thank you for bothering to read this . And second, I hope this makes it clear that while I still love Bioware and the games they make, it will be a long, hard road for them to win back my faith and trust in them. I truly hope that DA3 and ME4 and many other great games will be the stepping stones on it... but I will remain doubtful all the way.

Why aren't you writing fanfics again? 

Modifié par Dragon_Claw, 04 janvier 2013 - 01:31 .

[crimzontearz]

Ninja Stan wrote...

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith

good question and it is nice to see a different approach.


 
Uhm...have you ever been cheated on by a girl? I think the situation is very similar conceptually (and only conceptually)


 
I guess the answer is not as easy as it would be in that case either because some of us have different expectations. I mean Call of Duty games are usually incredibly polished games and deliver what they promised but was Bioware to start producing sequels to the MDK series COD Style, while earning high marks and keeping pre release promises on a hard 2 years cycle that would juat show me they are not in the business of making the games I love (RPGs). Sure I may try them if they have what I call..."the angle" but it would not be the same.

If Bioware created ME4 and showed they were trying to get their RPG on again and offering us everything ME used to be before all this (without heavily skewing the formula to cater to the COD crowd or rushing the game out like DA2 and ME3 were....and they were really, there is no doubt in my mind) then the situation would be much more positive and while it would restore part of my faith in them -as I believe it was not entirely their fault to begin with- but it still would leave the unresolved situation if Casey, Mac and the handling of this whole mess which would need addressing....but I could easily forget about it all and never mention it again if certain conditions were met

[SpamBot2000]

It did, along with BioWare's response to the issue.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 04 janvier 2013 - 03:26 .

[EagleScoutDJB]

No ME3 didn't destroy my trust, but the way EA and Bioware handled the whole mess did. You can't treat your fans like your mistake is their fault or they just don't understand what you were trying do with your game and expect all of them to keep buying your games. Casey Hudson's we wouldn't know how to write that comment back when the EC came out left me feeling like maybe they don't know how to make the kind of games I like anymore, and this is from some that 2 of my top 5 games ever Casey had a big part in making.

[Grand Wazoo]

Not really ME3 itself, ME3 was just a single mediocre product, but in combination with DA2, SWTOR, EA and the way the industry and the fanbase is shifting, I can't say I have much 'trust' in Bioware anymore. That said, Bioware was never the developer for me, they have made games I have truly enjoyed and games I haven't enjoyed at all. So I never had this automatic trust to begin with that every Bioware game would be worth my time.

But now I just have this feeling I'll never buy another Bioware game again, the things being the way they are. But who knows? Maybe they'll release a good game in the future. I just find it highly unlikely.

[tonnactus]

Already happened with Mass Effect 2...
Only bought Mass Effect 3 to finish the series.

[ME859]

Ironically I think ea gets blamed for the wrong aspects of ME3. Lets be clear, the rushed deadlines, shoehorned MP, and day 1 DLC are likely all products of EA's management. Everything else in regards to design or story is a product of Bioware.

Think about it if EA designed the ending would they have chosen ones that were so different and in turn so difficult to turn into a sequel? After fulfilling their obligation with free ending content and with high consumer demand during an industry recession what sense would it make to forgo producing alternate ending dlc especially when they're selling investors on micro transactions. All while Mass Effect is in danger of loosing its cash cow status. Ironically it'll probably take a deal with the devil himself, ie EA, to get alternate ending DLC because based on Biowares statements they want nothing more to do with the endings.

[Femlob]

LTKerr wrote...

Femlob wrote...

I love how txgoldrush equates magazine awards and sales in the millions to the product being worth half a damn. Then again, what can you expect from someone who's dumber than a bag of hammers?

As for the OP, trust does not apply. One trusts people, not things.

Bioware employees are people, not things. Some of those people are the ones who decide everything major about a game so this is not about trusting a thing like a company but trusting their judgement. Gave Newell (Valve) would never allow the release of an unfinished game; Bioware's CEO allowed it twice. You could say we don't trust the judgement of the ones in charge of Bioware.

OP asked me if ME3 destroyed my trust in BioWare, which is a thing. If OP had asked me if ME3 destroyed my trust in BioWare's management, employees or cleaning ladies for all I care, I would have responded differently.

[crimzontearz]

Quite correct but some would argue even the "endings created in a vacuum" situation was to save time and the handling of the rest mainly hubris/pride

Of course we will never know but the fact that one of the devs was convinced that there was a happy ending stashed in the game up until release day while there actually was no such thing is pretty telling

[Mazebook]

no...ME 3 is in my personal best Game of all time Top 10.

For me, Bioware is on the right path.

[spirosz]

No, I still know they can make great games, which they did with ME3, but it just fell flat for me personally and what my expectations were, especially concerning certain ME2 characters. I didn't realize they were going to go with so much auto-dialogue, but hey, it's their game. They won't be getting money for any of their DLC or any day one purchases for future products. Personally though, their PR is garbage and I'm being honest, their good with words, but all I see is EA through most of it. I know it's not easy doing what they do and I respect them for that, but I personally wish they spent another year on the game and had their priorities better planned, like come on - Diana Allers over cut Ashley/Jack content, which would impact their arc in a meaningful way.

Silly Bioware, tricks are for kids!

[Xellith]

Stuff like this kinda makes me not wanna buy full price games.  I pretty much get 2nd hand and sale only now.

"Michael Pachter said

The industry should give customers what they want, but it should not manage to the highest common denominator,” said Pachter. “The reason we get games like Max Payne and Alan Wake only every six years or so is that the developers strive for perfection, and whiny gamers are only going to cause their beloved games to take even longer between episodes. The BioWare guys are prolific, but if they slow down development of future games to make sure that everybody is happy, consumers will have even fewer choices, and will have something new to complain about. Game development is a balance between delighting consumers and making a profit, and if everyone focuses on guaranteeing 100 percent satisfaction, development costs will rise unacceptably, and nobody will make any money.”

You have to be careful about who you buy from.  Some are just in it for the money.  Thats how Mass Effect 3 came accross.  With EA pushing the release date to get it out as quickly as possible.  Bioware = slave of EA and EA wants your money.

Then you get something like the DayZ.  They are working on a standalone.  It was meant to be out in december, but they pushed back its release date so they could continue to improve it.  To attempt to guarantee an amazing experience.

I just dont see Bioware as being a company that cares anymore.  I see them as a company that wants money.  Mass Effect 3 needed at LEAST another 6 months development.  At LEAST.

I'd rather have a small selection of games avaliable and have each game be awesome, than have a lot of games avaliable and most of them not worth buying.

NOTICE:
DAYZ AND WARZ ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAMES BY TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DEVS.  WARZ IS THE ONE THAT HAS ALL THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT AND GOT PULLED FROM STEAM.  DAYZ IS A MOD FOR ARMA 2.  A STANDALONE IS COMING OUT SOMETIME THIS YEAR.   DAYZ STANDALONE HAS YET TO BE RELEASED.

Modifié par Xellith, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:08 .

[Outsider edge]

Xellith wrote...

Stuff like this kinda makes me not wanna buy full price games.  I pretty much get 2nd hand and sale only now.

"Michael Pachter said

The industry should give customers what they want, but it should not manage to the highest common denominator,” said Pachter. “The reason we get games like Max Payne and Alan Wake only every six years or so is that the developers strive for perfection, and whiny gamers are only going to cause their beloved games to take even longer between episodes. The BioWare guys are prolific, but if they slow down development of future games to make sure that everybody is happy, consumers will have even fewer choices, and will have something new to complain about. Game development is a balance between delighting consumers and making a profit, and if everyone focuses on guaranteeing 100 percent satisfaction, development costs will rise unacceptably, and nobody will make any money.”

You have to be careful about who you buy from.  Some are just in it for the money.  Thats how Mass Effect 3 came accross.  With EA pushing the release date to get it out as quickly as possible.  Bioware = slave of EA and EA wants your money.

Then you get something like the DayZ.  They are working on a standalone.  It was meant to be out in december, but they pushed back its release date so they could continue to improve it.  To attempt to guarantee an amazing experience.

I just dont see Bioware as being a company that cares anymore.  I see them as a company that wants money.  Mass Effect 3 needed at LEAST another 6 months development.  At LEAST.

I'd rather have a small selection of games avaliable and have each game be awesome, than have a lot of games avaliable and most of them not worth buying.

Nevermind i got those two games mentioned above mixed up it seems.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 05 janvier 2013 - 12:28 .

[Annie_Dear]

Yes.

Ever since they started to turn DA into a fantasy version of ME, and their reaction to the fan backlash of ME3.

[Yate]

I trust them more than ever now.

[thefallen2far]

I preordered the collector's edition, bought a new XBox 360 with bigger Harddrive and Kinect, bought all of Dragon age 2 DLC even though I didn't like it much, I figured it was a one off glich. I bought..... now I feel like I have to be convinced they're anything relevent or have the ability to objectively make anything that appeals to most everyone. So yes, I definately lost faith in them.

[Kel Riever]

Yeah, it is pretty obvious that I can't trust them in the sense that they don't even understand their own product. Nor can they respond correctly to complaints. Sticking to your guns when you are completely wrong is a fairly obvious character flaw, yet for some reason BioWare seems to admire this. I don't really expect them to grow any brain cells and bother to fix things, but it would certainly help them.

Hell, I don't even trust them to help themselves. I wonder if they will even be around to produce games in a few years. If they do, I'm pretty sure it will not be with a Mass Effect rpg series that doesn't have multiplayer. Pretty damn sure.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 04 janvier 2013 - 03:26 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

I trust I'm no longer the target audience, I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.

[spirosz]

Yate wrote...

I trust them more than ever now.

We know Yate. 

[spirosz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I trust I'm no longer the target audience, I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.

This, sadly. 

[Benchpress610]

MyAwesomeAfro wrote...
*snip*

Have I lost my trust in BioWare? In a nutshell: YES, but I’m not gonna write them off just yet. There are still very talented people over there. Although some of the best have left (Christina Norman, Jessie Huston, Drew, etc), the potential is still there. Under a different leadership, they might come up with something great…
 
As for Walters/Hudson, I hold them responsible for this debacle. I don’t know what went on behind closed doors, but they are the face of the franchise. We’ll probable never know the details. They might even be victims in all of this for all we know. But they have ruined the whole Mass Effect experience for me.