599 réponses à ce sujet

[clarkusdarkus]

DA2/TOR/ME3...a continued trend of substandard gaming of which 3 strikes and your out

[Zeroth Angel]

No ME3 didn't, not at first atleast. TOR and DA2 in combination with ME3 did.

[JasonShepard]

I was going to come in here and give a short reply along the lines of 'No, my faith in Bioware is still solid, I thoroughly enjoyed ME3 and I can understand why the Devs don't want to hang around angry fans.' However, I'm going to be a bit more sympathetic, having read the OP. You can count the above as my response to the just the title.

Shortly after LotSB, before ME3 had been released, there was a fairly substantial proportion of the fanbase complaining about how Kaidan and Ashley were treated in ME2. One of the biggest choices in ME reduced to (almost) a single scene. A thread was started up, asking for a LotSB style DLC for the Virmire Survivor instead. For more alliance content. The devs rarely, if ever, commented in the thread, but a number of the ideas suggested did appear** in Arrival (albeit without the VS) and, eventually, in ME3, where the VS had an entire subplot and became a full squadmember again. My only remaining complaint about the VS is the lack of post-Citadel dialogue with Ash.

The point of that story? The devs ARE listening, even if they aren't commenting. The boards became a very poisonous area in the direct aftermath of ME3, and they still haven't fully recovered. We're still giving out a lot more negative feedback than positive, although Bioware needs to know what worked just as much as they need to know what didn't work.

And although I personally have no more complaints about ME3's ending (EC and Leviathan satisfied me), I can sympathise having been in a situation in the past where I felt Bioware had abandoned a part of the MEUniverse that was important to me.

**Suggested ideas in that thread that later appeared in Arrival or ME3 (off the top of my head):
VS squadmate,
Hackett and a return to the Alliance,
A stealth section,
Marksmanship squadmate-power,
Deployable cover (suggested as a squadmate-power for Kaiden, used by Cerberus in ME3)
Heck, even Ashley's new hairdown look is remarkably similar to a popular bit of fan-art from back then.

[SlottsMachine]

JasonShepard wrote...

The point of that story? The devs ARE listening, even if they aren't commenting.

I don't think there was ever any doubt that the devs listen, Christina Norman had a interactive presentation thingy a few years ago that laid out a lot of things that fans wanted for ME3. The problem is a lot of that stuff wasn't implemented and then you ask yourself, why did they try to work on element A but completely ignored element B when in my opinion element B was much more important? And again you ask yourself, if there was better communication between the fans and the devs could a better solution have been reached?

The devs are obviously under no obligation to listen at all but many fans (you know the not crazy ones) can offer great insight which could make the overall product better, and everyone's happier for it. 

[Almostfaceman]

Savber100 wrote...

MyAwesomeAfro wrote...

Thanks for all this feedback. Keep it coming. Hopefully Bioware actually sees this and realises how badly this has been handled.

I'm sorry but that is stupid. 

EA doesn't give a DAMN of what you write on their forums. Why should they? 

The only thing that even triggers anything for EA is sale numbers and even then EA would make sure it was the DEVELOPERS like Bioware pay with the fan ire. 

Second, you don't give any "trust" to a business. The only developers that I would even place close are those unassociated with mainstream publishers like Valve and CD Projekt RED. Even then, TRUST is a iffy word. 

It's not really dumb at all. Companies pay good money for this kind of feedback, and here they get it by maintaining a message board. I guarantee you there's people who are paid to read the boards. Ever wonder why so many sites are laiden with survey's? Ever wonder why you go shopping then get asked to fill out a survey, or get one emailed to you? Companies want to know what you want, so they can tailor their products to sell better and/or tailor their marketing. 

Now, how well they respond to the feedback is up to them, and the response and products are not always perfect or even nearly so. 

Of course you give "trust" to a business. When I buy a car, I "trust" they made a car that will hold together and get me and my family where I want to go. When I buy any product, I'm "trusting" the company that made the product to deliver on that product. 

Now, does that mean I "trust" them like I would trust my family with some private matter? No, but nobody's making that kind of comparison here. People trusted Bioware to deliver on a product, and in many's opinion, they didn't. They're letting the company know about it, and they'll continue to give feedback until they're tired of doing so, and there's not really anything anyone can do to stop it. If Bioware didn't want to hear it, they would have shut every thread down and shut the boards down. They haven't. Filtering out the unconstructive feedback, there's gold in the message boards and they mine it. 

[mnomaha]

MyAwesomeAfro wrote...

I want to see Shepard survive this fight. I want more, I want to see my squad again. That's pretty much what everyone wants. Or at least the option.

I wanted that too. Instead, they killed off my LI about 1/3 of the way into the game, so no more FemShep because none of mine are currently lesbian. So I am forced to play as a male if I want any kind of emotional interaction with this game.

Did I get my happy ending? Only after I installed a FAN MADE MOD.

Very sad and disappointing for a developer that gave us ME1, ME2 and DAO.

Short answer, hell yes it destroyed my trust/faith in them.

[JasonShepard]

General Slotts wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

The point of that story? The devs ARE listening, even if they aren't commenting.

I don't think there was ever any doubt that the devs listen, Christina Norman had a interactive presentation thingy a few years ago that laid out a lot of things that fans wanted for ME3. The problem is a lot of that stuff wasn't implemented and then you ask yourself, why did they try to work on element A but completely ignored element B when in my opinion element B was much more important? And again you ask yourself, if there was better communication between the fans and the devs could a better solution have been reached?

The devs are obviously under no obligation to listen at all but many fans (you know the not crazy ones) can offer great insight which could make the overall product better, and everyone's happier for it. 

Right now, there is too much anger around for good communication, I'm afraid. The DA3 boards are much healthier which, actually, gives me confidence that things will improve (considering DA2...). That's also why they are more active on Twitter - easier to avoid and/or block out the rage.

I agree that the fans can offer good insight - heck, I'd be crazy to disagree - but I don't think the ME boards will fully recover until we start focusing on what we *liked* again, rather than having loads of threads saying 'lost faith in Bioware', 'why does Bioware do this', 'Mass Effect 3 SUCKS!!', 'ME3 Ending Thread 2 - the sequel', 'Give us IT DLC now!!'... you get the idea.

[txgoldrush]

Femlob wrote...

I love how txgoldrush equates magazine awards and sales in the millions to the product being worth half a damn. Then again, what can you expect from someone who's dumber than a bag of hammers?

As for the OP, trust does not apply. One trusts people, not things.

And reader awards where gamers vote on their favorite games...Mass Effect 3 won several of these awards....

Sorry, but the detractors of ME3 live in a bubble.

Simply put, the detractor wants to ignore the evidence that Mass Effect 3 was a success to make his argument that ME3 was a failure. Its not.

This is the problem with this board, in their hate, they ignore clear evidence that contradicts them.

[txgoldrush]

And no, I lost trust in Bioware's fans.

Bioware's fans seem to only want Bioware to use the same formula, to play it safe, to have the most populist story elements, and to not have to make tough decisions.

Bioware does NOT have to give you everything you want. They do NOT have to make RPGs all the time. They do NOT have to follow the same formula.

In fact, they handled the Extended Cut well, they laid down the line, saying that they cannot and will not please everybody. You either like it or you don't...deal with it.

[Iakus]

JasonShepard wrote...

Right now, there is too much anger around for good communication, I'm afraid. The DA3 boards are much healthier which, actually, gives me confidence that things will improve (considering DA2...). That's also why they are more active on Twitter - easier to avoid and/or block out the rage.

I agree that the fans can offer good insight - heck, I'd be crazy to disagree - but I don't think the ME boards will fully recover until we start focusing on what we *liked* again, rather than having loads of threads saying 'lost faith in Bioware', 'why does Bioware do this', 'Mass Effect 3 SUCKS!!', 'ME3 Ending Thread 2 - the sequel', 'Give us IT DLC now!!'... you get the idea.

Anger festers.  If you talk and get no response, no indication that you've even been heard let alone actually being listened to, it creates resentment.  The need to be louder, to do more to attract attention.  Or worse, a sense of hopelessness which causes people to give up and walk away permanently.  Neither is good for Bioware at this point.

the DA2 team did eventually come back and start talking to the fans again after a few months.  To genuinely ask "What could have been done better?"  They really wanted to know what caused all this rage.  And the DLCs that got released actually showed that they listened and applied the feedback, in as far as dlc could address them.

It's been ten months here.  Where's the questions?  Where's the dialogue?  Where's the "How could we do better?"  How did the dlcs reflect they're listening to the problems we had with the game?  Where's the indication that they actually care what we think?  EC?  Ultimately it altered nothing I had a major problem with.  And left behind, and even reinforced, the very things I had a huge problem with.  It's like my suggestions were never heard at all.  Or dismissed as irrelevant.

 So, yeah, as I said in the beginning, anger festers.  

[The Spamming Troll]

nope.

i saw the writing on the wall in ME2.

BSN said "no, spamming troll, bioware knows what they are doing. ME2 is just the middle of the story. the next game will show you what you want!!!!"

i place full blame on my purchase of ME3s CE on the behalf of BSN. so you all owe me $85 or whatever i spent on that useless CE.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 janvier 2013 - 08:14 .

[RocketManSR2]

Don't stop now Tex, you're on a roll!

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Its the continued release of disappointing games that have shaken the fans trust in Bioware, not Mass Effect 3 on its own. 

Modifié par DinoSteve, 04 janvier 2013 - 08:21 .

[JasonShepard]

iakus wrote...

Anger festers.  If you talk and get no response, no indication that you've even been heard let alone actually being listened to, it creates resentment.  The need to be louder, to do more to attract attention.  Or worse, a sense of hopelessness which causes people to give up and walk away permanently.  Neither is good for Bioware at this point.

the DA2 team did eventually come back and start talking to the fans again after a few months.  To genuinely ask "What could have been done better?"  They really wanted to know what caused all this rage.  And the DLCs that got released actually showed that they listened and applied the feedback, in as far as dlc could address them.

It's been ten months here.  Where's the questions?  Where's the dialogue?  Where's the "How could we do better?"  How did the dlcs reflect they're listening to the problems we had with the game?  Where's the indication that they actually care what we think?  EC?  Ultimately it altered nothing I had a major problem with.  And left behind, and even reinforced, the very things I had a huge problem with.  It's like my suggestions were never heard at all.  Or dismissed as irrelevant.

So, yeah, as I said in the beginning, anger festers.  

True. But they tried that. They were rather more talkative in the lead-up to the EC, and before Leviathan was released.  And in any case - as you say, it's been ten months. Ten months after ME2 then Bioware wasn't exactly chatty (although I don't remember perfectly - I was far less active back then).

I don't see an easy solution. I don't think Bioware does either. I think they genuinely tried with Omega - they just got it wrong, and the good stuff was hidden from sight (I didn't fully recognise the Aria character development arc until seeing some alternate endings). If the next DLC is LotSB standard... we might see some good progress here.

Or we just write off the ME3 boards, and pray that everyone has calmed down by the time that they open up the Mass Effect: 4/ Mass Effect: First Contact War/ Mass Effect: Fleet Commander boards.

[Belisarius25]

I'm sort of in the same camp as JasonShepard above (funny that he mentioned the VS characters, because that was a major complaint of mine after finishing ME2). I'm not thrilled by ME3 and there's a lot of stuff I wish could have been changed both in 3 and even back in 2 to maybe have the whole trilogy work better, but I'm still more likely to take a look at a Bioware game than most other developers, just with more hesitation than before.

SWTOR was actually a much bigger hit to my confidence in Bioware than ME3, although admittedly I came to this series later than most so I didn't have the years of waiting/fandom that I did with KOTOR leading to TOR. MMOs are a different animal, though, so I just dumped my sub and stopped caring.

Modifié par Belisarius25, 04 janvier 2013 - 08:35 .

[chemiclord]

Did ME3 destroy my "trust" in Bioware? I dunno... what was I supposed to be trusting them with?

I trusted them to produce a game they titled Mass Effect 3. They did that.

I had expectations, and most of them were not met. But I was the one who bought it sight unseen. That is MY problem, not Bioware's. They produced the game they wanted to make. They told the story they wanted to tell. That I think it's largely unsatisfying... whelp, that's on me. Lesson learned.

[AresKeith]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I trust I'm no longer the target audience, I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.

[Humakt83]

No, it hasn't. If anything ME 3 has made me a lot more fascinated about the trilogy. It is a better game overall than first two anyway. Of course, that doesn't mean I will buy their games blindly. I buy them only if they interest me. No MMORPGS or games based on Star Wars for me.

Viewing this conversation..... someone should make a choices compendium thread to slap it into the face of crybabies who continuously whine how the choices did not matter in ME 3.

Modifié par Humakt83, 04 janvier 2013 - 08:32 .

[txgoldrush]

JasonShepard wrote...

iakus wrote...

Anger festers.  If you talk and get no response, no indication that you've even been heard let alone actually being listened to, it creates resentment.  The need to be louder, to do more to attract attention.  Or worse, a sense of hopelessness which causes people to give up and walk away permanently.  Neither is good for Bioware at this point.

the DA2 team did eventually come back and start talking to the fans again after a few months.  To genuinely ask "What could have been done better?"  They really wanted to know what caused all this rage.  And the DLCs that got released actually showed that they listened and applied the feedback, in as far as dlc could address them.

It's been ten months here.  Where's the questions?  Where's the dialogue?  Where's the "How could we do better?"  How did the dlcs reflect they're listening to the problems we had with the game?  Where's the indication that they actually care what we think?  EC?  Ultimately it altered nothing I had a major problem with.  And left behind, and even reinforced, the very things I had a huge problem with.  It's like my suggestions were never heard at all.  Or dismissed as irrelevant.

So, yeah, as I said in the beginning, anger festers.  

True. But they tried that. They were rather more talkative in the lead-up to the EC, and before Leviathan was released.  And in any case - as you say, it's been ten months. Ten months after ME2 then Bioware wasn't exactly chatty (although I don't remember perfectly - I was far less active back then).

I don't see an easy solution. I don't think Bioware does either. I think they genuinely tried with Omega - they just got it wrong, and the good stuff was hidden from sight (I didn't fully recognise the Aria character development arc until seeing some alternate endings). If the next DLC is LotSB standard... we might see some good progress here.

Or we just write off the ME3 boards, and pray that everyone has calmed down by the time that they open up the Mass Effect: 4/ Mass Effect: First Contact War/ Mass Effect: Fleet Commander boards.

You also have to take reception into account.

DA2 was objectively a dissapointment, with lower review scores and lower sales. ME3 is critically acclaimed with some of the best sales Bioware has seen and several awards.

Nevermind that the DA feedback is mostly in its gameplay and its design, which pleasing the fans is the best course of action. ME3's case is its narrative, which the fans should not have full input on. The Extended Cut is a compromise, giving some fans what they wanted while sticking to their original vision.

[txgoldrush]

Humakt83 wrote...

No, it hasn't. If anything ME 3 has made me a lot more fascinated about the trilogy. It is a better game overall than first two anyway. Of course, that doesn't mean I will buy their games blindly. I buy them only if they interest me. No MMORPGS or games based on Star Wars for me.

Viewing this conversation..... someone should make a choices compendium thread to slap it into the face of crybabies who continuously whine how the choices did not matter in ME 3.

This.....

And I don't put faith in companies, or blind hate in them either. I don't even give a crap about EA. If EA publishes a great game, I buy it, if they don't, than I don't. I am not on this stupid anti-EA bandwagon.

And I was never on the bioware fan wagon much either....viewing the non-Bioware sequels of KOTOR and NWN as far better than the Bioware originals. Where Jade Empire was a blown oppurtunity, and that DAO is one of the most overrated RPGs to come out this gen.

In fact I view the Mass Effect series as Bioware's greatest accomplishment since Baldur's Gate II, not KOTOR, which was blessed by its timimg and its liscence.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't know: DA2 got plenty of criticism for its story and narrative.

From the Hawks going to a Templar stronghold with a mage in tow, the huge ambiguity of the Primevial Thag, not being able to side with the Qunari, the forced death of Leliandra, the depiction of mages and templars, and of course Anders and the final resolution.

Sure, there were people who enjoyed parts or all of these... but they were also frequently lambasted and criticized on grounds distinct from gameplay.

[Iakus]

JasonShepard wrote...

True. But they tried that. They were rather more talkative in the lead-up to the EC, and before Leviathan was released.  And in any case - as you say, it's been ten months. Ten months after ME2 then Bioware wasn't exactly chatty (although I don't remember perfectly - I was far less active back then).

I don't see an easy solution. I don't think Bioware does either. I think they genuinely tried with Omega - they just got it wrong, and the good stuff was hidden from sight (I didn't fully recognise the Aria character development arc until seeing some alternate endings). If the next DLC is LotSB standard... we might see some good progress here.

Or we just write off the ME3 boards, and pray that everyone has calmed down by the time that they open up the Mass Effect: 4/ Mass Effect: First Contact War/ Mass Effect: Fleet Commander boards.

If by "talkative" you mean "stickied a thread called 'We are listening' then largely ignoring it" then yeah, I guess.  Alan Schumacher was the only one who actually went and asked probing questions.  And he's on teh DA team and was only asking as an ME fan.

I think EC in the end actually made things harder.  It was hoped to be a "fix" for the endings.  A way out for Biwoare to quiietly retcon things to be more palatible for the players.  instead it was less a "fix" and more a "there was never anything broken to begin with.  Here let me explain..."  Which not only disappointed fans all over again, but had the added benefit of making us feel condescended to as well.

The DA2 team, otoh figured out a lot sooner that people were genuinely disapponted in the game.  This wasn't just "the fans needed closure" the game itself was flawed.  And in the end, the DA team came and asked "How can we do better?"  The dlcs released later and the few hints we've received about DA3 indicate that such suggestions were taken to heart.  Heck Legacy is right up there with Lair of the Shadow Broker as far as quality DLC, imo.

I am yet to hear anything like that from the ME team, and after EC I think such a question will be greated with a lot more skepticism. 

[txgoldrush]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't know: DA2 got plenty of criticism for its story and narrative.

From the Hawks going to a Templar stronghold with a mage in tow, the huge ambiguity of the Primevial Thag, not being able to side with the Qunari, the forced death of Leliandra, the depiction of mages and templars, and of course Anders and the final resolution.

Sure, there were people who enjoyed parts or all of these... but they were also frequently lambasted and criticized on grounds distinct from gameplay.

while this is true.....it was the gameplay and its design that caught way more attention. Even those that did enjoy DA2 admit there were problems with its gameplay and design.

[txgoldrush]

iakus wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

True. But they tried that. They were rather more talkative in the lead-up to the EC, and before Leviathan was released.  And in any case - as you say, it's been ten months. Ten months after ME2 then Bioware wasn't exactly chatty (although I don't remember perfectly - I was far less active back then).

I don't see an easy solution. I don't think Bioware does either. I think they genuinely tried with Omega - they just got it wrong, and the good stuff was hidden from sight (I didn't fully recognise the Aria character development arc until seeing some alternate endings). If the next DLC is LotSB standard... we might see some good progress here.

Or we just write off the ME3 boards, and pray that everyone has calmed down by the time that they open up the Mass Effect: 4/ Mass Effect: First Contact War/ Mass Effect: Fleet Commander boards.

If by "talkative" you mean "stickied a thread called 'We are listening' then largely ignoring it" then yeah, I guess.  Alan Schumacher was the only one who actually went and asked probing questions.  And he's on teh DA team and was only asking as an ME fan.

I think EC in the end actually made things harder.  It was hoped to be a "fix" for the endings.  A way out for Biwoare to quiietly retcon things to be more palatible for the players.  instead it was less a "fix" and more a "there was never anything broken to begin with.  Here let me explain..."  Which not only disappointed fans all over again, but had the added benefit of making us feel condescended to as well.

The DA2 team, otoh figured out a lot sooner that people were genuinely disapponted in the game.  This wasn't just "the fans needed closure" the game itself was flawed.  And in the end, the DA team came and asked "How can we do better?"  The dlcs released later and the few hints we've received about DA3 indicate that such suggestions were taken to heart.  Heck Legacy is right up there with Lair of the Shadow Broker as far as quality DLC, imo.

I am yet to hear anything like that from the ME team, and after EC I think such a question will be greated with a lot more skepticism. 

No, the problem with the original ME3 ending was simple...it was very underdeveloped. There were no explainations of why things happened, the Catalyst lacked depth and development (as well as a thematic ocnnection to the series), and the consquences of your actions were not shown.....hell, this is similiar to The Witcher 2's ending where it was also underdeveloped, didn't factor in your choices well, and did not provide closure to its story arc (before setting up its cliffhanger)...and CDP had to fix their ending.

The problem is you...you just didn't like it. To me, The Catalyst fits right with the series themes, about how  creators and their search for a tool, had their creation turn against them, impacting life int he galaxy. And now with the choices better explained, the ending fits with the theme of sacrifce a lot better as well.

And some people HATED the first ending, but liked the EC.



So, stop trying to speak for the entire fan community, because you don't.

[Humakt83]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

not being able to side with the Qunari 

Hawke was Champion of Kirkwall not Qunari's Slaughterer of People. That's how narrative was going to play from the start.