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Has Mass Effect 3 Destroyed Your "Trust" in Bioware?


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#101
Ryoten

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Ninja Stan wrote...

I just want to remind everyone to mind the Site Rules regarding personal attacks, name-calling and insults. This has been a pretty reasonable discussion so far, and I'd like to keep it that way. I may be biased, since I'm involved in the conversation, but I don't want to have to shout over people who want to be mean and nasty to each other.

Thank you.


Sorry stan, posted my last post before i saw yours.  I'm just going to step away before this guy makes me say something ill regret.

#102
o Ventus

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txgoldrush wrote...

a) because you have none.....ME3 clearly shows the results of the Krogan leadership, Eve's survival, and the genophage results. You cannot debate this.


E-mails and a lone ending slide aren't "clearly showing" anything.

B) So what if you like Miranda as a character and want to keep her alive at all costs? Then your choice obviously matters more. Its a choice and consquence on the character level. Hell, she can even die as a romance interest,w hich can shock those who like the character.


Again, which ultimately changes what? You didn't even address my point, let alone try to refute it.

c) But as an objective FACT, yes, it matters. The script is altered, the tone is altered, and teh consquence is altered...all objective facts. Whether or not its meaningful to you is opinion....subjective.


Again, see above. Literally all that changes is flavor text (that most people will only read once before ceasing to care) and a number (that, because of MP and the EC patch, is ultimately meaningless). The mission plays out 100% the same, and aside from the flavor text I mentioned, there is no other outside reference. Yay differences?

Really what choice other than joining Bastila or not, matters majorly in KOTOR? What choice other than killing or poisioning the Water Dragon matter in JE? Taking ME1 alone, outside of the Virmire survivor and the end choice, did your choices matter much in ME1? Compared to Obsidan or CD Projeckt, or Atlus.....Bioware sucks at choice and consquence in a meaningful way. Why? Because its more reliant on a morality meter than actual consquences.


Aside from ME1, I've never played these games.

#103
obibenjedi

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LinksOcarina wrote...

ETA: I am perhaps being a bit harsh in using the first part as a blanket for everyone who "trusts" them, but think about that though, do you really trust anything that is made for you? Do you trust movie makers or music artists to craft a product solely for you? 

It really is a good question.


When it comes to movies I might trust a director for example because of a track record of films I enjoy.

#104
fiendishchicken

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Ninja Stan wrote...

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith?


Unlikely. I'm sorry, but I just have the feeling of being too burned to really keep going. And as much as I love the universe, I'm really here for the characters that I've come to love, and Shepard. I know it's the end of Shepard's story (gamewise, though I think BW should have retired the character for a while), but for me Shepard's story is Mass Effect for me. The characters I love; Miranda, Mordin, Thane, Legion, Javik, TIM, etc. Those are Mass Effect for me. It may be a future title set in the same universe, but it won't be Mass Effect for me. The story of Shepard was what made me fall in love with this franchise, and, in my opinion (let me stress that), ME3 did a great disservice to all of that. I was made to feel happy about serving as a pro-alliance paladin, who's dream team (and best friends) were the ME1 crew, and I hated it. I wanted to express some kind of admiration for Cerberus. I wanted to mourn for Thane's death instead of Ashley's. I wanted my Shepard to feel about certain things the way I felt about them. I lost my immersion, the feeling that it was me telling the story. My basic argument is why move on to ME4, when I feel as if I didn't even get ME3?

#105
txgoldrush

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Ryoten wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Wow.....this shows the hypocrisy of Bioware fans.

Face it......Bioware was once a company viewed as unable to do anything wrong...however, they did plenty wrong and had major flaws. This includes a game such as Baldur's Gate II. And now Bioware can do no right, but the fact is that the characters have been more multidimensional, the imagination has never been more apparant, the writing has never been more mature, and the choices never mattered more.


1) I really hope you're just trolling.  This entire statement sounds more like someone whos never played a BioWare game, who got bribed to say this.  None of the choices from ME1 or 2 mattered in ME3.  DA2 argueably didn't even have a story.  And their characters have had less multidimension than a pubic hair. 



Neverwinter Nights? Was the game that good? The story sucked, its the worst Bioware story they have ever done, or is teh fanbase forgetting.

KOTOR. If it wasn't for the Star Wars liscence and the Revan plot twist, would th egame stand on its own? Would it have been that memorable? Can you really say its better than the sequel in its fully restored state both writing wise and gameplay wise? No you can't. KOTOR was a product of its time, and that masks the flaws it has. Consider it the FFVII of the Western RPG.


2) You see, this shows you really don't know what you're talking about.  These 2 games argueably made BioWare the company that they were built up to be prior to DA2.  KOTOR stands out as one of the greatest games ever made, and this game is what literaly introduced me to BioWare.  Honestly, you're the first person ive ever heard to bad mouth these games.

Dragon Age Origins? Really, so a game that basically as derivative and so unoriginal is that good? A game that lacks focus in its plot, sidelines its characters from the plot, and basically plays like a weaker version of FFXII combat wise that good?


3) I'm at a complete loss of words here.  There are some levels of stupidity that are so off the scale, that nothing you can say can define it.  This is such a case.

And before ME3, when did Bioware really offer true choice and consquence that wasn't Messiah vs The Devil? Except for DAO, which choices only really matter in the end, what Bioware made choices other than the big one matter truly outside morality points? At least ME3 had delayed cosnquences that affect you later, both in ME3 and from past games. So if you are a bioware fan of the past, criticizing ME3 for how it handles choice is hypocritical because no Bioware game does it better since BGII.


4) ME1
ME2
DA:O
KOTOR

And really was Drew K even that great of a writer.....his handling of Revan before he left Bioware proves that really, he wasn't that good of a writer.


5) I know one thing for sure.  I'm never going to see your name in the great halls of literature.


Are you an idiot?

1) Sure choices don't matter....yeah Wrex and Wreav are so much the same and it doesn't matter what I did in ME2, peace between the geth and quarains are always a possibilty (sarcasm). And this is why I think people here are idiots......

And DA2 did actually have a story.....did you not get it because it wasn't about facing a monstorus force of evil to save the day? Let me enlighten you, the story of DA2 was about Varric telling a woman looking for Hawke (who once thought he was responsible for the crisis) how Hawke was not responsible for the collapse of the city and the descent into war. Were there execution problems with DA2? Absolutely.....But there is a story here and its far more complex than the LOTR ripoff that was DAO.

2) And when I look back at KOTOR, I see how flawed it really was and how much the sequel would have been better if LucasArts did not rush Obsidan.

3) So you are saying DAO isn't completely unoriginal and derivative while calling me an idiot? Wow

4) Yeah choices...are you the second coming of Christ or are you spawn of Satan? Your consquence.....morality points or approval....

5) And you?



1. Are you an idiot?

It's funny, i was about to ask you that same question.  But after reading your responses, i wish i could pay to have you commited to a asylum.

2.  And DA2 did actually have a story.....did you not get it because it
wasn't about facing a monstorus force of evil to save the day? Let me
enlighten you, the story of DA2 was about Varric telling a woman looking
for Hawke (who once thought he was responsible for the crisis) how
Hawke was not responsible for the collapse of the city and the descent
into war. Were there execution problems with DA2? Absolutely.....But
there is a story here and its far more complex than the LOTR ripoff that
was DAO.

Oh i didn't say that it didn't have a story, i said it argueably didn't have one.  And judging by the terrible reviews, im not alone in thinking that.  I know what they were going for, and it was so un-interesting that its foregetable.  The story is barely there, and what is there is burried under so many forgettable mmo-style fetch quests with people jumping out of the scaffoldings to fight you that its pathetic.  John Steinbeck books have more memorable moments than this game.  And someone sitting down and explaining to someone "how so and so did this and not that, and its not what you thinl".  Is not something thats original.  Star Trek has done it more times than i can count.  DA2 sucked, and i doubt anyones going to take your back on this one.  The cheese (you) stands alone.

3) So you are saying DAO isn't completely unoriginal and derivative while calling me an idiot? Wow

I'm saying, it was more interesting and memorable than the crap you preach called DA2.  There's a reason why stories such as LoTR are memorable, and DA2 are not.  They work.

4) Yeah choices...are you the second coming of Christ or are you spawn
of Satan? Your consquence.....morality points or approval....

So i guess choosing to save a council, which of my friends live and die accross two games, countless moral and ethical decisions,  Choosing to let your g/f live or die, Choosing to kill of a entire race or let it live.  Yeah, those are all non-consequential.  Lets just focus on ME3 choices because that game is all that matters, right?

5) And you?

I never said i would, but what i believe will stand the test of time long after your's are burried and dead.




"The cheese (you) stands alone"

And yet DA2 has several positive reviews as well with some people saying the story is better and far more ambitious. So I am not alone in this. And it definitely does have a story...there is no argument here. So there is no such thing as "argueably" here.

"I'm saying, it was more interesting and memorable than the crap you preach called DA2. There's a reason why stories such as LoTR are memorable, and DA2 are not. They work."

And there are also reasons why the words "cliched" "derivative" "unoriginal" and "ripoff" exist.

"So i guess choosing to save a council, which of my friends live and die accross two games, countless moral and ethical decisions, Choosing to let your g/f live or die, Choosing to kill of a entire race or let it live. Yeah, those are all non-consequential. Lets just focus on ME3 choices because that game is all that matters, right?"

And yet where do the consquences occur?....lets hear it....Mass Effect 3. Before ME3, it was all choice, very little consquence.

"I never said i would, but what i believe will stand the test of time long after your's are burried and dead."

Sure...lol



1. And yet DA2 has several positive reviews as well with some people saying
the story is better and far more ambitious. So I am not alone in this.
And it definitely does have a story...there is no argument here. So
there is no such thing as "argueably" here.


The only positive reviews ive seen are you, dangling it out there and maybe one or two review sites.  It was declared a failure.  Hence why they pulled the plug on the DLC.  The story is argueably not there because were arguing about it right now.  Aside from the last 10 minutes of the game, i cant remember anything from that game and i played it through 3 times.  However i remember almost every bit of DA:O.   Being able to remember a story is what makes something good, because it sticks with you.  DA2 does not.  Very boring. 

2. And there are also reasons why the words "cliched" "derivative" "unoriginal" and "ripoff" exist.

A ripoff would have been a lot better than the story (or rather lack of) of hawke.  DA2, simple and boring.

3.  And yet where do the consquences occur?....lets hear it....Mass Effect 3. Before ME3, it was all choice, very little consquences.

Well lets see, there was the whole invasion of the citadel!?  Or how about ME2 when you the council is either there at the meeting or dead.  How about when some of your team mates are dead in space tubes.  It makes me wonder if you actually pay attention to what goes on in these games or whether you just drift off and start dreaming up your own absolute garbage ideas. 

4. Sure...lol

I'm glad to see you agree with me.  Excepting that you're wrong is the first step. 


1. On PC going by Metacritic, it has 38 positive reviews and 7 mixed reviews, 9 with 90% or above...so you are badly overstating your case. In fact MC only counts 1 negative review.....

Your opinion =/= fact

2. To you....but to say that it has no story is objectively wrong. Hell, I remember, it has choices you are reminded of the outcome long after you made it, continously...such as whether I took the sibling on the Deep Roads or whether I made Aveline guard captain. Nevermind teh characters actually develop differently as friends than as rivals. The only objective fact you can say about DAII is that it did score less than most of Biowares games.

Even as I liked this game for what it tried to do, I objectively realize that it indeed got a weaker reception than the company;s past products,

3. OK, a couple in ME2.....but nowhere NEAR the maginitude of ME3. And nowher near the magnitude of Obsidan, Atlus, or CDProjeckt Red. And those companies beat Bioware in what ignorant fands consider to be the company's hieght in choice and consquence. KOTOR II destroys KOTOR I when it comes to choice and consquence.

4. And yet I am right, the haters of ME3 are the vocal minority.

#106
SwordofMercy1

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After I played DA2 I became skeptical of Bioware, but none-the-less retained some faith in them, thinking that they would not pull the same exact stunt. Turns out,I was dreadfully wrong. Now I'm not saying I will never by a Bioware game again, but I will definitely not pre-order ever again, and will try to buy a used copy (if my friends don't have it) after reading PLAYER reviews. Now if EA were to suddenly fall down a well and was never heard from again, I'd be on the wagon again.

#107
Priss Blackburne

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Ninja Stan wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Mass Effect 3 completed the process that Mass Effect 2 began, I'm very unlikely to ever buy a Bioware product again.

This kinda leads to another question that I'm reticent to ask, but it's related:

This kind of sentiment is brought up quite a bit, and more power to you for doing so. But for people who claim to be huge fans who had faith in the company and trusted them to release product that you wouldn't be disappointed in, sometimes all it takes is one bad product to make you change your mind.

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith?


I think I'm leaning towards stepping stones. I'm honestly suprised how disapointed with ME3 I was and my own personal reaction to it. I'm usually fairly laid back about things like this, but I guess I Love the Mass Effect universe so much more then any other Sci-fi series. It was a shock and I was in denial for the longest time, thinking no they just didn't release the end yet. Part of me still hopes for this no matter how extremely remote the chance are.

I think before I buy another Bioware game , I loath to do this...but I would look up ending spoilers :crying:.  I'm honestly not sure if the next game being great would make me be able to buy bioware games again without doing this. Part of me doesn't even want to look at the next Mass Effect game, even though I probably will.

Mass Effect 3 is such a great game I really want to be able to get over the ending and someday hopefuly I will. I want to also say the Team who made Mass Effect are still the best in the industry and I have no ill will towards or anger towards them as they have given me a lot of joy over the last few years, helping me through a lot of hard times playing ME over and over.

Sorry I only have maybe's or probably's, my reaction to this is all kinda new territory for me.

#108
o Ventus

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txgoldrush wrote...

4. And yet I am right, the haters of ME3 are the vocal minority.


Unless you're going by the BSN (in which case you would be flat-out wrong), you have literally zero way of knowing this.

#109
Iakus

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Ninja Stan wrote...

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith?


There's a saying I heard years ago that I find very appropriate:  "Trust is a currency that's hard to earn but easily spent"  


I didn't care for the direction of ME2.  Didn't like it's storyltelling method, it's overly streamlined gameplay, the lack of consequences, but I passed that off as an anomoly.  I never hated DA2 the way others did, though I acknowledge it was a weaker Bioware entry.  But it was ME3, and EC's 'fix" that made me lose faith.  Because frankly it seemed the writers didn't understand what made it so terrible to begin with. How can they make a product I want if they don't understand what it was that made me love their games to begin with?

At this point, I have little reason to even look at another Mass Effect game.  I had to install a mod just to be able to play ME3 without getting depressed and turning it off.  ME4 (or whatever it gets called) is going to have a very deep well to climb out of to step out of the shadow ME3 left on the IP.


If, however, against all odds, the next Mass Effect game ends up a return to "old school Bioware" a good choice-based narrative RPG, then it would be a start to mending fences.  I wouldn't be here if I thought things were hopeless.

 But marketing claims?  Reviews?  Hype?  Prepare to have a lot of skeptics in this area.  I doubt we'll be seeing throngs of fans waving inflatable omniblades in the near future.

#110
txgoldrush

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o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

a) because you have none.....ME3 clearly shows the results of the Krogan leadership, Eve's survival, and the genophage results. You cannot debate this.


1) E-mails and a lone ending slide aren't "clearly showing" anything.



B) So what if you like Miranda as a character and want to keep her alive at all costs? Then your choice obviously matters more. Its a choice and consquence on the character level. Hell, she can even die as a romance interest,w hich can shock those who like the character.



2) Again, which ultimately changes what? You didn't even address my point, let alone try to refute it.



c) But as an objective FACT, yes, it matters. The script is altered, the tone is altered, and teh consquence is altered...all objective facts. Whether or not its meaningful to you is opinion....subjective.


3) Again, see above. Literally all that changes is flavor text (that most people will only read once before ceasing to care) and a number (that, because of MP and the EC patch, is ultimately meaningless). The mission plays out 100% the same, and aside from the flavor text I mentioned, there is no other outside reference. Yay differences?



Really what choice other than joining Bastila or not, matters majorly in KOTOR? What choice other than killing or poisioning the Water Dragon matter in JE? Taking ME1 alone, outside of the Virmire survivor and the end choice, did your choices matter much in ME1? Compared to Obsidan or CD Projeckt, or Atlus.....Bioware sucks at choice and consquence in a meaningful way. Why? Because its more reliant on a morality meter than actual consquences.


Aside from ME1, I've never played these games.


1) Wrong again...its in the dialogue and oh wait...did you miss the part of the Krogan leader addressing his troops on Earth, or the Salarians....based on your choice on Tuchanka. Notice how Wrex and Wreav's speeches are entirely different in tone. Nevermind it also alters the Control Sheps agenda along with alignment.

But you have to start making up falsehoods to support you dubious claim. Thats ignorance I cannot stand.

2) Ultimately changes the character's survival....why does it even have to be plot important. Its character important. If you like the character, you'd want to keep her alive.

3) Flavor text or actual story? Notice how your characters act differently and the tone of the mission is different regarding your choice. If you keep the Rachni queen alive than its "did the Rachni queen betray me?" and if you killed the queen than its "why are the rachni still here?"

Tone matters, it can change the decision making environment. Hell, notice the tone of the Grissom Academy mission is far different iff Jack is dead than if Jack is alive and Kahlee's suggestions on what roles the students should play is different.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:17 .


#111
txgoldrush

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o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

4. And yet I am right, the haters of ME3 are the vocal minority.


Unless you're going by the BSN (in which case you would be flat-out wrong), you have literally zero way of knowing this.


Then why the critical acclaim, awards, even popularity contest wins and runner ups?

#112
fiendishchicken

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iakus wrote...
I didn't care for the direction of ME2.  Didn't like it's storyltelling method, it's overly streamlined gameplay, the lack of consequences, but I passed that off as an anomoly.  I never hated DA2 the way others did, though I acknowledge it was a weaker Bioware entry.  But it was ME3, and EC's 'fix" that made me lose faith.  Because frankly it seemed the writers didn't understand what made it so terrible to begin with. How can they make a product I want if they don't understand what it was that made me love their games to begin with?

At this point, I have little reason to even look at another Mass Effect game.  I had to install a mod just to be able to play ME3 without getting depressed and turning it off.  ME4 (or whatever it gets called) is going to have a very deep well to climb out of to step out of the shadow ME3 left on the IP.


If, however, against all odds, the next Mass Effect game ends up a return to "old school Bioware" a good choice-based narrative RPG, then it would be a start to mending fences.  I wouldn't be here if I thought things were hopeless.

 But marketing claims?  Reviews?  Hype?  Prepare to have a lot of skeptics in this area.  I doubt we'll be seeing throngs of fans waving inflatable omniblades in the near future.


Minus your opinion on ME2, I wholeheartedly agree. 

#113
fiendishchicken

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txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

4. And yet I am right, the haters of ME3 are the vocal minority.


Unless you're going by the BSN (in which case you would be flat-out wrong), you have literally zero way of knowing this.


Then why the critical acclaim, awards, even popularity contest wins and runner ups?


First, the only objective way to truly see the impact ME3 has made on the fanbase and the gaming community at large is to look at the sales of the next ME game (or even the next BW game). 

Second, Ventus, as your friend, I'm telling you to stop arguing with this guy. You'd get a more productive conversation talking to a brick wall.

#114
txgoldrush

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iakus wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith?


There's a saying I heard years ago that I find very appropriate:  "Trust is a currency that's hard to earn but easily spent"  


I didn't care for the direction of ME2.  Didn't like it's storyltelling method, it's overly streamlined gameplay, the lack of consequences, but I passed that off as an anomoly.  I never hated DA2 the way others did, though I acknowledge it was a weaker Bioware entry.  But it was ME3, and EC's 'fix" that made me lose faith.  Because frankly it seemed the writers didn't understand what made it so terrible to begin with. How can they make a product I want if they don't understand what it was that made me love their games to begin with?

At this point, I have little reason to even look at another Mass Effect game.  I had to install a mod just to be able to play ME3 without getting depressed and turning it off.  ME4 (or whatever it gets called) is going to have a very deep well to climb out of to step out of the shadow ME3 left on the IP.


If, however, against all odds, the next Mass Effect game ends up a return to "old school Bioware" a good choice-based narrative RPG, then it would be a start to mending fences.  I wouldn't be here if I thought things were hopeless.

 But marketing claims?  Reviews?  Hype?  Prepare to have a lot of skeptics in this area.  I doubt we'll be seeing throngs of fans waving inflatable omniblades in the near future.


old school Bioware.....

You mean characters used as talking codex entries disconnected from the main plot, reliance on black and white morality, the reuse of the same formula for the plot and characters over and over again, the lack of character development, etc.

No thank you............the genre has passed this by..or you do you want CD Projeckt to really past Bioware up. If Bioware goes back to the past, CDP will surpass them.

#115
txgoldrush

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fiendishchicken wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

4. And yet I am right, the haters of ME3 are the vocal minority.


Unless you're going by the BSN (in which case you would be flat-out wrong), you have literally zero way of knowing this.


Then why the critical acclaim, awards, even popularity contest wins and runner ups?


First, the only objective way to truly see the impact ME3 has made on the fanbase and the gaming community at large is to look at the sales of the next ME game (or even the next BW game). 

Second, Ventus, as your friend, I'm telling you to stop arguing with this guy. You'd get a more productive conversation talking to a brick wall.


Or how about drop the ignorance and admit while you may not have like ME3, it was objectively a success for Bioware.

Its simple.

#116
o Ventus

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txgoldrush wrote...

1) Wrong again...its in the dialogue and oh wait...did you miss the part of the Krogan leader addressing his troops on Earth, or the Salarians....based on your choice on Tuchanka. Notice how Wrex and Wreav's speeches are entirely different in tone.


How many times do I need to say this: Which ultimately changes what?

2) Ultimately changes the character's survival....why does it even have to be plot important. Its character important. If you like the character, you'd want to keep her alive.


Irrelevant. I'm not speaking from an emotional perspective. Strictly speaking, Miranda offers nothing to the table aside from 25 points (which, again, are meaningless, especially in such low quantities). Aside from these 25 points, what does the player stand to lose from her death?

3) Flavor text or actual story? Notice how your characters act differently and the tone of the mission is different regarding your choice. If you keep the Rachni queen alive than its "did the Rachni queen betray me?" and if you killed the queen than its "why are the rachni still here?"


Again, what ultimately changes? From a video game standpoint (meaning both mechanically and in terms of actual gameplay), what is different? I won't even begin to discuss the story merits of this particular point. The Reapers cloning a queen is too stupid for me to handle.

Tone matters, it can change the decision making environment. Hell, notice the tone of the Grissom Academy mission is far different iff Jack is dead than if Jack is alive and Kahlee's suggestions on what roles the students should play is different.


Again, I'm not speaking from an emotional standpoint. Notice that I've never said "there's no difference". " I say "ultimately, there's no difference". I recognize that there's technically a difference, but aside from a few patter details (EMS changes, Padok Wiks v. Mordin Solus, etc), nothing has effectively changed in the grand scheme of things.

#117
o Ventus

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txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

4. And yet I am right, the haters of ME3 are the vocal minority.


Unless you're going by the BSN (in which case you would be flat-out wrong), you have literally zero way of knowing this.


Then why the critical acclaim, awards, even popularity contest wins and runner ups?


How is any of this evidence of a vocal minority or majority? 

#118
teh DRUMPf!!

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 My opinion of them has always been: they're not THAT good, but they're not THAT bad either.

Every game has several strokes of genius, and several facepalm-inducing moments.

In that way, ME3 is no different from any other. My opinion hasn't changed.

#119
Iakus

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txgoldrush wrote...

old school Bioware.....

You mean characters used as talking codex entries disconnected from the main plot, reliance on black and white morality, the reuse of the same formula for the plot and characters over and over again, the lack of character development, etc.

No thank you............the genre has passed this by..or you do you want CD Projeckt to really past Bioware up. If Bioware goes back to the past, CDP will surpass them.


You, I'm not interested in talking to,  So I'll stop before I say something our ninja moderator may take issue with.

#120
Cobretti ftw

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legion999 wrote...

No. I'm not trusting anything stated by EA at all. Not just Bioware.


/\\

THis


I was hoping to buy BF3 when ME3 came out. I had a pre order for me3, but i intended to buy BF after i finished ME3.

After i finished it, i decided that i would not play anymore EA games.

#121
Meltemph

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 I dont have trust in Bioware to make a quality scifi setting anymore, and instead I now expect all Scifi games to be of a Michael Bay like quality(which is great if you like those kinds of movies).  Which means, I probably wont be buying any of their scifi games, unless their philosophy on how they deal with a scifi setting changes.

While the reapers were the issue in ME1, they never felt like they "shrank" the setting/universe of ME, instead you felt that the ME setting was an entire universe of interesting species, intergalactic conflicts, and political back and forth that that even if the reapers didnt exist the setting would easily survive on its own.

Starting with ME2, helped increase the feeling of size with the galaxy, with all the places you could go, and empowered the idea even more that the reapers were not needed to make the ME setting amazing, but imo, started "cartooning" up the setting with the "we can rebuild him" asspull and the "big reveal" at the end of the game that had me quite dissapointed.  

It went from an intelligent galaxy/setting with set rules in place with-in the setting, to letting you know anything goes, as long as we think it will make a great/emotional/shocking scene. Instead of the main storyline empowering the setting, it instead started hampering it, imo.

ME3 was the final nail, to me personally that said, Bioware at least with Scifi, wants comic book villain enemies to be preeminent, established "rules" with-in the universe only matter if it makes the story better(reminding you this is a game and not an "other universe"), and an apparent desire to radically change the setting without ever actually delving into the "world" of mass effect. The ME series went from dark shades of gray to mustache twirlling villians all around, with the "gods vs creation" bullcrap completely taking over the setting, and litterally ate the setting whole, leaving nothing left but the crumbs of past games for Bioware to clean up via the genophage and the Quarians getting their home back.

Mass Effect 3 has made me lose faith in them, not because they make bad games - while the endings were incredibly silly, the main story plot being incredibly damaging to the setting and belongs in a Justice league story, imo - it was a great overall "game"; but it made me lose faith in them in terms of being able to create an enjoyable scifi setting.  Instead we end up with mustache twirlling CEO and a supervillian of Zod/Superman/X-Men quality that was just misunderstood, because the gods will always be at war with their creations -_-.

I dont dislike ME3 because it was a bad game, I extremely dislike the story becasue it shows how little revernce Bioware showed to its own setting, and its willingness to put the universe, that quite litterally carried the main storyline's of the games on its back, as second fiddle to try and have a bunch of high quality scenes with the substance of the setting itself being completely lost.  

The galactic community, the politics, the infighting, the cultures and everything else I didnt mention, and how they interacted, imo, is what made the game so great,  however, it seems to me that its importance was near non existant to the people who made ME3. Those endings showed the complete willingness to alter and change what made the game so great in the 1st place, the setting, for the sake of creating a narative(or Moral of the story) that apparently someone was determind to make.

All that said, even though I wasnt thrilled with how DA2 got put together, the lore and setting that was there, to me was great so I will still put my trust in Gaider with his desire to hold up the idea of just how important a setting is.  You would think people would already know this, seeings as how polarizing D&D edition changes can be when you mess with the forgotten realms, but maybe the scifi developers think they are above that?  I dunno, either way, I was very sadden with the direction ME3 went, and honestly, the ending was just the tip of the iceberg that was the problem with ME3, imo.

Modifié par Meltemph, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:34 .


#122
obibenjedi

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Ninja Stan wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Mass Effect 3 completed the process that Mass Effect 2 began, I'm very unlikely to ever buy a Bioware product again.

This kinda leads to another question that I'm reticent to ask, but it's related:

This kind of sentiment is brought up quite a bit, and more power to you for doing so. But for people who claim to be huge fans who had faith in the company and trusted them to release product that you wouldn't be disappointed in, sometimes all it takes is one bad product to make you change your mind.

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith?


Not a huge mega fan but have a lot of bioware games in my collection. Think what severed trust for me was the handling of fan disatifaction. ME3 is the only game i've ever pre order, didn't read hype or advertizing. Preordered purely on previous 2 games. But when something is so bad and so poorly recieved by fans an "I'm sorry and we will try better", wouldn't go amiss!

#123
RocketManSR2

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ithurtz wrote...

one troll enters, and everyone takes the bait.


As shown by the growing quote pyramid. :lol:

I've placed myself in the neutral zone of the BSN. I still don't like the choices provided at the end of the game, but I will try to enjoy ME again just the same.

#124
LinksOcarina

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I am glad everyone is validating my suspected feeling that the blame is mostly on EA for the flaws of the game, which is frankly a silly thing to blame anyway since for all intents and purposes it pays the bills while people make games.

But honestly I don't blame you for it. Although EA is doing nothing different than other companies out there. I guess you can say they suck at it at the very least...

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:31 .


#125
txgoldrush

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o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

1) Wrong again...its in the dialogue and oh wait...did you miss the part of the Krogan leader addressing his troops on Earth, or the Salarians....based on your choice on Tuchanka. Notice how Wrex and Wreav's speeches are entirely different in tone.


1) How many times do I need to say this: Which ultimately changes what?


2) Ultimately changes the character's survival....why does it even have to be plot important. Its character important. If you like the character, you'd want to keep her alive.


2) Irrelevant. I'm not speaking from an emotional perspective. Strictly speaking, Miranda offers nothing to the table aside from 25 points (which, again, are meaningless, especially in such low quantities). Aside from these 25 points, what does the player stand to lose from her death?


3) Flavor text or actual story? Notice how your characters act differently and the tone of the mission is different regarding your choice. If you keep the Rachni queen alive than its "did the Rachni queen betray me?" and if you killed the queen than its "why are the rachni still here?"


3) Again, what ultimately changes? From a video game standpoint (meaning both mechanically and in terms of actual gameplay), what is different? I won't even begin to discuss the story merits of this particular point. The Reapers cloning a queen is too stupid for me to handle.


Tone matters, it can change the decision making environment. Hell, notice the tone of the Grissom Academy mission is far different iff Jack is dead than if Jack is alive and Kahlee's suggestions on what roles the students should play is different.


4) Again, I'm not speaking from an emotional standpoint. Notice that I've never said "there's no difference". " I say "ultimately, there's no difference". I recognize that there's technically a difference, but aside from a few patter details (EMS changes, Padok Wiks v. Mordin Solus, etc), nothing has effectively changed in the grand scheme of things.



1) Which changes the outcome of the Krogan people...from golden age, to constant warfare, to annihilation. You have to be cluess and ignorant to deny this.

2) Not irrelevant, fans play this series with an emotional persepctive. Having a character you like die matters.

3) Why does the gameplay perspective have to change?...the story perspective does.

4) And why does the choice have to seriously alter the main plot outside the ending? It doesn't. But it matters in the here and now and alters the tone in a significant way where you look at a point in the game differently based on your choices.

Wildly branching games such as The Witcher 2 and Tactics Ogre can have flaws in their design as well.