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Has Mass Effect 3 Destroyed Your "Trust" in Bioware?


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#151
txgoldrush

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o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Because a game hated by the majority don't do well in Reader choice awards or win awards.


According to...?

Call of Duty has been winning awards since the beginning of time, but it's been the laughing stock of gaming ever since 2008.


And yet, are those people laughing and bashing Call of Duty the majority? Or does the silent majority play th egames enjoy them and not have to show it on message boards?


I don't know.

Which is my point. You don't know either. Nobody does. People who say "vocal minority" are all equally retarded, regardless who they're talking about.


Or maybe because its a fact. Hell, I am in the vocal minority when it comes to Call of Diuty...I hate that franchise now and I hate whats its doing to gaming, but I am not so ignorant to deny that it was successful. Or that its very much liked.

#152
Priss Blackburne

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MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

No? I can't believe this Ending crap is still going on.


I know this thread is taking a turn for the worst but Stan actualy asked the people who feel this way what would it take to regain our trust.

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:49 .


#153
LinksOcarina

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o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Because a game hated by the majority don't do well in Reader choice awards or win awards.


According to...?

Call of Duty has been winning awards since the beginning of time, but it's been the laughing stock of gaming ever since 2008.


And yet, are those people laughing and bashing Call of Duty the majority? Or does the silent majority play th egames enjoy them and not have to show it on message boards?


I don't know.

Which is my point. You don't know either. Nobody does. People who say "vocal minority" are all equally retarded, regardless who they're talking about.


funny, I said that several months ago and got shat on for being a liar and a drone.

Just pointing out the irony of such an accusation, carry on. 

#154
Meltemph

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You mean characters used as talking codex entries disconnected from the main plot,


What characters are you talking about?

reliance on black and white morality,


What game of Biowares was/is black and white? Because since BG there has always been tons of gray to choose from.

the reuse of the same formula for the plot


Huh? BG series, NWN main story, NWN expansions, Jade Empire, KOTOR, Dragon Age, have VERY little in common storywise.

and characters over and over again, the lack of character development, etc.


The only thing I can assume is you think that little chart that gets thrown around that tries to simplify and remove all context of everything story related as your only thing you have to go on.

Bioware has had their best stories with established settings where they must pay homage and are forced to fully respect the "lore/setting" to it at all times. The DA setting, I hope is a step back into the perspective.

Modifié par Meltemph, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:51 .


#155
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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fiendishchicken wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

No? I can't believe this Ending crap is still going on.


Miranda won't be in the next game.




Okay? I expected that. The new game is probably many years later. I don't expect anyone to return. It's most likely something completely different.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:51 .


#156
fiendishchicken

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Priss Blackburne wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

No? I can't believe this Ending crap is still going on.


I know this thread is taking a turn for the worst but Stan actualy asked the people who feel this way what would it take to regain our trust.


Modifié par fiendishchicken, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:55 .


#157
fiendishchicken

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MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

No? I can't believe this Ending crap is still going on.


Miranda won't be in the next game.




Okay? I expected that. The new game is probably many years later. I don't expect anyone to return. It's most likely something completely different.

but you love Miranda.

#158
Thaa_solon

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LinksOcarina wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

Quite the opposite, it was and still is a disaster.

If anyone in his/her's right mind think's that ME3 is a success, then I would recommend a healthy dose of reality.


You mean almost every magazine and gaming critic?


If EA/BW would give me alot of money then I would(I'd lie) tell everyone what a splendifferus and marvelous game ME3 was.

Money talks Bulls**t walks B)


Except thats a fantasy, so your kidding yourself if you believe in that. 


Oh ocarina you are right, no one would ever lie about a game RIGHT?



 

#159
Iakus

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Meltemph wrote...


The only thing I can assume is you think that little chart that gets thrown around that tries to simplify and remove all context of everything story related as your only thing you have to go on.

Bioware has had their best stories with established settings where they must pay homage and are forced to fully respect the "lore/setting" to it at all times. The DA setting, I hope is a step back into the perspective.


Don't pay him any mind.  He's just trolling trying to get the thread locked.  Honestly I don't know why people are still responding to him.

#160
LinksOcarina

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Thaa_solon wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

Quite the opposite, it was and still is a disaster.

If anyone in his/her's right mind think's that ME3 is a success, then I would recommend a healthy dose of reality.


You mean almost every magazine and gaming critic?


If EA/BW would give me alot of money then I would(I'd lie) tell everyone what a splendifferus and marvelous game ME3 was.

Money talks Bulls**t walks B)


Except thats a fantasy, so your kidding yourself if you believe in that. 


Oh ocarina you are right, no one would ever lie about a game RIGHT?


Yep.

#161
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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fiendishchicken wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

No? I can't believe this Ending crap is still going on.


Miranda won't be in the next game.




Okay? I expected that. The new game is probably many years later. I don't expect anyone to return. It's most likely something completely different.

but you love Miranda.



Yeah, but I except the fact that ME4 will be something completely different. A new character, a new plot, a new threat, a new age. For all we now, it may be thousands of years later.

#162
Jadebaby

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txgoldrush wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Or how about drop the ignorance and admit while you may not have like ME3, it was objectively a success for Bioware.

Its simple.


Financially maybe, but I certainly don't think it's paved the way for future success from the company.

In my opinion.


In your opinion...there you go.

However, future success also is about taking successsful risks and not relying on the same formula over and over.


In your opinion.

#163
fiendishchicken

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MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

No? I can't believe this Ending crap is still going on.


Miranda won't be in the next game.




Okay? I expected that. The new game is probably many years later. I don't expect anyone to return. It's most likely something completely different.

but you love Miranda.



Yeah, but I except the fact that ME4 will be something completely different. A new character, a new plot, a new threat, a new age. For all we now, it may be thousands of years later.


But you love Miranda.

#164
cachx

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Thaa_solon wrote...


Oh ocarina you are right, no one would ever lie about a game RIGHT?



But that goes both ways, ME3 got a majority of praise but it was not universal (lots of sites didn't list it on their top tens, or it ranked very low on them, etc)

*dons tinfoil hat*
Maybe Activision bough those sites to trash ME3 ! Maybe all the detractors on comment sections are Bobby Kotik's agents!
*dances away*

thats how dumb the "EA paid everyone off" conspiracy sounds.

#165
Thaa_solon

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cachx wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...


Oh ocarina you are right, no one would ever lie about a game RIGHT?



But that goes both ways, ME3 got a majority of praise but it was not universal (lots of sites didn't list it on their top tens, or it ranked very low on them, etc)

*dons tinfoil hat*
Maybe Activision bough those sites to trash ME3 ! Maybe all the detractors on comment sections are Bobby Kotik's agents!
*dances away*

thats how dumb the "EA paid everyone off" conspiracy sounds.


Quick everyone, to the POD!:o

#166
LinksOcarina

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cachx wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...


Oh ocarina you are right, no one would ever lie about a game RIGHT?



But that goes both ways, ME3 got a majority of praise but it was not universal (lots of sites didn't list it on their top tens, or it ranked very low on them, etc)

*dons tinfoil hat*
Maybe Activision bough those sites to trash ME3 ! Maybe all the detractors on comment sections are Bobby Kotik's agents!
*dances away*

thats how dumb the "EA paid everyone off" conspiracy sounds.


It's always been a dumb conspiracy. Hell the only site I would say you have a case for it is IGN because they had a conflict of interest. Even then though thats one site that everyone universally agrees is crap to begin with.

#167
fiendishchicken

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Thaa_solon wrote...

cachx wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...


Oh ocarina you are right, no one would ever lie about a game RIGHT?



But that goes both ways, ME3 got a majority of praise but it was not universal (lots of sites didn't list it on their top tens, or it ranked very low on them, etc)

*dons tinfoil hat*
Maybe Activision bough those sites to trash ME3 ! Maybe all the detractors on comment sections are Bobby Kotik's agents!
*dances away*

thats how dumb the "EA paid everyone off" conspiracy sounds.


Quick everyone, to the POD!:o


http://t3.gstatic.co...t5O0gTGInXgL8iS

#168
Priss Blackburne

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cachx wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...


Oh ocarina you are right, no one would ever lie about a game RIGHT?



But that goes both ways, ME3 got a majority of praise but it was not universal (lots of sites didn't list it on their top tens, or it ranked very low on them, etc)

*dons tinfoil hat*
Maybe Activision bough those sites to trash ME3 ! Maybe all the detractors on comment sections are Bobby Kotik's agents!
*dances away*

thats how dumb the "EA paid everyone off" conspiracy sounds.


I honestly don't see publisher's paying off review sites. I do however see a possibility of reviewers getting pressure from their bosses to give high paying advertiser's better reviews.

I don't believe this is the case with ME3 as it got so many good reviews, but I do feel like there is some diconnect with review sites and gamers that is just getting larger over time.

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:08 .


#169
devSin

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Ninja Stan wrote...

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith?

For me, it won't.

I don't feel the investment I had in the trilogy was respected with its final installment, and that's not something you can fix with future games. I just don't have the passion for Mass Effect anymore (nor much faith in Montreal being able to deliver a truly BioWare experience, even by today's standards, though I would have gone along with them anyway if things hadn't turned out this way), and it's really to the point that I can't even support the current team (a lot of whom I greatly trust and respect), at least if their projects share the same lead writer. I don't need to get involved in products that have the ability to be so poorly conceived and ultimately unsatisfying (especially those that demand such an investment), and I don't really care to anymore.

This isn't to say I would never purchase a BioWare game again, but something would need to change if you expected me to preorder or pay full retail price (the more likely scenario is that a great game becomes a stepping stone to my purchasing it for $29 instead of $19, not to me being a release customer again). Anything you could have done to keep me as a collector's edition pre-ordering customer for future games (speaking as somebody who's been a BioWare fan and loyal customer since BG), you chose not to do, and I'm not sure there's anything to be done about it now.

The DA team is an exception, to the point that they remain relatively inviolate. I've always tended to consider the teams separately (this is just the first time I've had to isolate one from BioWare as a whole), and they don't really have to do much to earn my support (it just has to be single-player and available for PC), as long as I have the capacity to support them.

Modifié par devSin, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:10 .


#170
LinksOcarina

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Priss Blackburne wrote...

cachx wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...


Oh ocarina you are right, no one would ever lie about a game RIGHT?



But that goes both ways, ME3 got a majority of praise but it was not universal (lots of sites didn't list it on their top tens, or it ranked very low on them, etc)

*dons tinfoil hat*
Maybe Activision bough those sites to trash ME3 ! Maybe all the detractors on comment sections are Bobby Kotik's agents!
*dances away*

thats how dumb the "EA paid everyone off" conspiracy sounds.


I honestly don't see publisher's paying off review sites. I do however see a possibility of reviewers getting pressure from their bosses to give high paying advertiser's better reviews.


nope.

At least, not where I contribute, although were a smaller site in the end. 

#171
Ninja Stan

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Can we please tone down the confrontational tones, get our danders back down, and bring this back on topic without shouting down each other's opinions? Thanks.

#172
MegaSovereign

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I use to trust Bioware. But when I saw her with another man it broke my heart.

#173
Priss Blackburne

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Ninja Stan wrote...

Can we please tone down the confrontational tones, get our danders back down, and bring this back on topic without shouting down each other's opinions? Thanks.


I know you take notes about forum dialogues all the time from the shadows, but thank you for taking the time to discuss this with us. It's silly but just being asked things like this makes me feel a little better.

#174
Lyrandori

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Yes, definitely.

But I'm still here on these forums talking about a game I supposedly hate. I don't know why. Maybe I want to like it... I think that's why. I still can't believe it happened to Mass Effect nor can I believe that BioWare made it the way it ended up. It's like... I don't know... like a nightmare I still wish to wake up from and realize that was just it, a nightmare. Nah, but seriously though... yeah I think it's because I'm still partially in denial about how badly (in my opinion) the game turned out. I always comment on various threads around here (and on other forums) about how much I liked some parts of ME3, and it's true. I do really like the Tuchanka arc. I also liked the Rannoch arc (not as much as Tuchanka's but still liked it overall). I liked when Garrus and Shepard just took some time together as friends (or LIs) and go shoot some bottles "up there", that was marvelously simple and well-crafted, it's parts like that in the universe of Mass Effect that I truly enjoy (just the "talky" parts, I'm not asking for shooting, I'm asking for Mass Effect and role-playing, that's it). I also like some of the banter between characters in the Normandy.

But, the overall experience just stinks of "rushing the game to meet the deadline". The departure of the lead writer prior to ME2's completion (Drew leaving just as ME2 was barely started) and how the team seemingly just shrugged off to the new ideas for some elements and aspects of the game, such as Cerberus turning from some terrorist group to the damn Galactic Empire and from classic Star Trek-inspired and "tolerable" sci-fi pseudo science to being able to resurrect the dead.

I mean I'm just trying to picture the team in my head, as they sit around a round table and brainstorm stuff and see some sketches or story-board progression on their wall as the writers show up with their latest suggestions. They see something that looks like a Terminator and they're brainstorming on how it can be a "great idea" for a final boss and they all just... nod to it and smile and claim "sure why not!" ... ? Or Ashley or Kaiden only showing up to basically cry about your situation even though you never asked to be resurrected from the dead only to be forced into Cerberus... again that team around the table brainstorming the idea... they just shrug off and think it's a good idea to basically dismiss them for the whole game? I'm not saying it happened that way. I'm just trying to basically visualize in my mind how the heck could it go from ME1 to ME2, and even more so how the heck can ME3 be what it is. What. The. Hell. Happened?! Was it really just because the game had to be rushed and having an extra year to work on it would have made it better? Is it JUST a question of lack of time so they had to cut corners and come up with sudden convenient stories to explain stuff as fast as they could even if they knew internally that it didn't make sense but had to accept it since the game had to be released? Was it all or partially done against their will?

I mean, honestly, I highly doubt that within BioWare, internally, that ALL the team behind ME3 is actually content, happy and satisfied. And, I'm not just talking about some of them wishing that ME3 "could be more". I'm talking about what actually made it in the game that we currently have, excluding the future DLCs. Do they ALL feel good about the "artistic vision" of the writers? Is it ALL ME3's team that really, truly nod with a smile in all honesty when they think of the game as a whole? I don't think so... but of course I could be wrong and indeed BioWare could genuinely believe that everything they've done for ME3 is as intended and was planned all along and whatever didn't make it in the game "In time" wouldn't have made it that much better anyway in the end. Maybe that's the case. But I just don't believe it is. I truly believe that both "having to" rush the game AND bad decisions during development contributed to make ME3 what it is. Is is streamlined and simplified. It's more of a shooter than anything else. The Auto Dialogue is a huge problem for me, the intro as well, feels rushed to the max. The side quests are spoon fed and boring, some of the script is mediocre compared to ME2's overall brilliant writing (and ME1's, too). Too much went wrong with ME3, I could come up with a longer list of issues but I'd just be repeating myself and most of us around here know about the issues themselves by now, no need to beat a dead horse.

Yes, ME3 destroyed what remained of the "trust" I had of BioWare, but there is some hope that lingers inside me... not sure why, or how. The thing is... how can I forget or why would I dismiss the SUPERB nearly-perfect games that were Baldur's Gate 2, Knights of the Old Republic, Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 1? I cannot forget about them, ever. They were made by BioWare. That BioWare has changed, however. Now there's new people, they are new teams and maybe there's some veterans remaining in BioWare whom worked on those games of their glorious past. But, today BioWare is different, and not different for the best, so far. There's one game that will prove - for me - once and for all if indeed BioWare "lost it" or not (permanently), and that game will be Dragon Age 3. If that one fails, then I don't see how nor why would BioWare ever survive that.

TL;DR

How I felt about BioWare prior to ME2 and DAII, was like this...

Image IPB

How I feel about BioWare games in general (not just for the Mass Effect franchise) after DAII and ME3, is like this...

Image IPB

Modifié par Lyrandori, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:20 .


#175
Archonsg

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Ninja Stan wrote...

I may regret this, but can I ask:

What kind of "trust" did you have in BioWare before ME3?


Stan, I have been a Bioware customer since Shattered Steel. 
I can still remember why I bought it since I was a Mechwarrior fan but Mech games were far and few in between and the only other released at the time were from Sierra Online, Earthsiege 2, but Shattered Steel had that *something extra* that drew me into the world and kept me there.

This is one Bioware's greatests strength.
You guys make games that draw people in, get them involved and invested and we enjoyed every moment of it.

From that point on, *every* Bioware game I have bought from MDK2 (which made be look for MDK, a case of a latter game encouraging me to buy a previous one) till today, including Mass Effect 3 for the most part, that is *true*

So my "trust" in Bioware has always been that based on your track record. 
If I see a Bioware game, I know that I will have a game that I can play the way I want to, within reason, and not just enjoy it but for want of a better way to say it, live the game. 

Also, the other aspect of how Bioware has changed is subtle but one that I saw the company go through these past 16 years.
I remember the old website and forums, I remember our heated and lively discussions with NWN, NWN2, with then fellow fan Selene Moonsong, with Chris Avalone who stired up a hornets nest when he first revealed that he hated writing for Romances but the thing is, there was a much more intimate relationship between Bioware and your fans. 
I think I remembr Greg and Ray coming on every once in a while as well. 
But that was 10+ years ago. 
Things changed.

And trust me, I do know that you guys do read the forums, things get passed on and the *final* decisions are yours or whomever is in charge of the project to make.

Then we come to ME3. 
Seriously, one of the core factors of a Bioware game is that when we buy one, we know we can play to a multidude of conclusions, not just towards "happy endings" but taking the darker road, the more destructive path, but that "happy ending" is there. Baldur's Gate ends with the player making the choice to be a god or remain mortal, played on the light or dark path. And the ending for it ties everything up on the personal level. It talks about your companions, your deeds your actions. 

Neverwinter Nights, Neverwinter Nights 2, Knights of the Republic, Jade Empires, all have this common theme. You can play the path you want but it was always your choice to do so. 

And nothing is more clear in this as was in Dragon Age Origins. 
That game was an amazing piece of work.
I could play the noble martyr, fool that he is.
I could play the vicious, stab everyone in the back, jerk.
I could play a person who keeps his head out of the clouds and do what is right for him. 
As I have posted in another post, one of my favorite DA:O endings is that my Warden, bedded Morrigan, conviced Leliana to be his mistress, Married Anora, Killed Alister, later Killed Morrigan, became ruler of the Aramanthine coast, and while this is not in the game probably will do away with Anora and become King.

The game allowed for it.

DA2 and ME3 took this "choice" at the ending, of multiple endings away.

I won't rehash my arguments for why ME3's ending failed so badly, but it is to me one single nihilistic ending.
The EC tried to cover it up, does a good enough job at it but I was amazed that Bioware didn't take the most common theme of our suggestions, that for all that Shepard has done, for all our time as players being invested in Mass Effect, our and Shepard's reward was to watch him accept what is essentially an ultimatum, commit an act of suicide because he was told to and no matter what the player does, his end is death, death, death / maybe death - mostly dead, and with EC's refusal choice, death for everyone.

Shepard desvered better then that.

So, going forward.
It seemed to me at least that Bioware no longer wants to listen to things it does not want to.
I do miss having discussions or at least the perception that we are disscussing things over with the Devs how to improve their games and thus keep me and many others as their customers.

Prior to ME3, if I see a Bioware Game, I would not think twice in pre-ordering blind. Which I did with DA:O, DA2, ME3, ME3, almost a good year before it was even available. 
Now, I would not do so.
I would not pre-order anything Bioware comes out with, including sadly, DA3, even though they are of a different division simply because I do not "trust" you to have a product that I will be happy playing, and more importantly, at the end of that experience, remain happy.

Instead of "trusting" that the product will be of quality and shippped with content I'd be happy with, I'll have to wait till youtube / bsn reviews are out to see what is really included in the game. Could this cause me NOT to buy the game becauase it'll be spoiled, possibly, but at this point of time I rather have a game spoiled and me not purchasing it than me purchasing it, get invested and at the end made to feel poorly for doing so.

Modifié par Archonsg, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:20 .