599 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

My faith in Bioware has not been destroyed in the slightest. ME3 was a great game and I am eagerly awaiting Bioware's next.

[liggy002]

They've lost me as a customer unless they bring Harbinger back.

[Ishiken]

Let me put it this way.

"I am color blind. And all of my ending choices results in the same ending. My game must be bugged."

What Bioware lost with a lot of their fans in Mass Effect 3 was the emotional devotion to the company? Bioware has lost the trust that those fans had in their brand. It is the illogical and irrational part of the buying process, where fans would pick up a game without researching it because it was produced by Bioware. Bioware has lost some of those fans that were willing to buy Collector's Editions and pre-order a game at full retail value, which are the same fans that helps lower investment risk and translate to a higher budget allowed for development.

I will not say that I won't buy another Bioware game. However I can say that I will never pre-order another Bioware game in the future and unless the game receives spectacular user reviews on game forums that I trust, then I would certainly not buy the game at full retail value.

The ending was bad, but the way that Bioware handled the backlash was even worse. It's sad that members of the community got so fed up with Bioware that they actually decided to develop a mod to completely rewrite the ending of the game. People are much more willing to overlook flaws in the middle of the plot, if the ending was well done because in the person's mind, it is merely a temporary struggle to get someplace better. However it is impossible to overlook a disappointing ending. Is it really that detrimental to Bioware if they allowed for an extra "happy ending" if they were going to release the Extended Cut anyways?

Modifié par Ishiken, 04 janvier 2013 - 10:20 .

[txgoldrush]

Archonsg wrote...

What happened in ME3 wasn't "sacrifice".
I know sacrifice.
I had an uncle taken by the Japanese, never to return home.
I have worked as humanitarian relief, seen **** that makes war the horror it is, seen the results of a regime so bent on genocide, fields of bones are its legacy.
I have seen personal sacrifices made by individuals.

ME3's ending might have wanted to convey that theme but it didn't.
It was forced suicide, forced upon Shepard by an entity that admits is the root, the creater of the very things Shepard was fighting against.
Had Shepard died fighting, I can accept that, as I had in real life, but to see this scenario play out as it is, calling it a sacrifice is a sham.

On that note, I saw in ME1, the theme that 1 man *can* make a difference.
In ME2, it takes more than 1 man, you needed a team, while you could loose that entire team and yourself die in the process of "winning" you could also win because you made that team stronger through loyalty and dedication.
Again, you did the impossible.

In ME3, the theme was in unity we find strength.
Because I would like to see you complete the game without bringing ANY OTHER race in to help.
You can't because it was written as such.
It is too bad that they choose right at the end to *change themes*

It became one nihilistic view and one that I do not condone.

Sorry but Casey Hudson enacted this trope....

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/WordOfGod

And is it the starboy that forces the sacrifice OR is it the situation, the firing of the Crucible?

Its the latter....you have completely missed the point because all starchild does is explain th esituation, thats it. In fact, he never states that Destroy will kill you if you have high EMS.

Nevermind, lets see who makes sacrifices in the game....can or will, either way

Tarquin Victus
Mordin Solus or Padok Wiks (most of the time)
Rila
Ensign Prangley (if Jack is dead)
Legion
Admiral Koris (if the civilians are chosen)
Conrad Verner (dies if the undercover cop quest wasn't done in ME1)
Kasumi Goto and Zaeed Messani (if not loyal in ME2)
Grunt (dies if not loyal in ME2)
Ann Bryson (if allowed to)
Thane Krios
Kirrahe (if Thane not present)
Nyreen Kandros
Miranda Lawson (can in a few ways)
Samara (in a weird way, can kill herself so she wouldn't have to go by code to kill her daughter)
Eve, Urdnot Baraka *if Maelon;s data isn't saved)

Let me ask you this...how is it possible for Shepard to unite the galaxy the best possible way? Because people sacrificed their lives to ensure victory. This includes usually three ME2 party members for most players.

[jstme]

I pre-ordered DA2 and ME3. Even tried to pre-order SWTOR but could not do it due to being in the wrong part of the globe. There is no chance i will pre-order DA3 and ME4 though.

So ,yeah, there is no blind trust anymore. When impossible schedule forces decisions that Bioware of old would have laughed at (claustrophobic Kirkwall, all decisions boiling down to EMS numbers and codex entries) and when all immersing fluff is being cut out due to same schedule issues while totally unneeded in SP game fluff is now a must - the chances that new games will somehow be awesome is pretty slim.
Saying all that, i do not think that Bioware is automatically lost cause in near future. EA guys are greedy but they are not blind and they see that Bioware on the label is no longer going to be enough. Sinking Bioware is going to be a media disaster which is bad news for shareholders company. So with new generation of consoles coming up i think that there is that slim chance they will consider giving new Bioware games more development time - which is (almost) all what talented guys at Bioware need. Less grimdark bitter fatalism fab will be beneficial too.

Modifié par jstme, 04 janvier 2013 - 10:26 .

[Ishiken]

txgoldrush wrote...


Sorry but Casey Hudson enacted this trope....

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/WordOfGod

And is it the starboy that forces the sacrifice OR is it the situation, the firing of the Crucible?

Its the latter....you have completely missed the point because all starchild does is explain th esituation, thats it. In fact, he never states that Destroy will kill you if you have high EMS.

Nevermind, lets see who makes sacrifices in the game....can or will, either way

Tarquin Victus
Mordin Solus or Padok Wiks (most of the time)
Rila
Ensign Prangley (if Jack is dead)
Legion
Admiral Koris (if the civilians are chosen)
Conrad Verner (dies if the undercover cop quest wasn't done in ME1)
Kasumi Goto and Zaeed Messani (if not loyal in ME2)
Grunt (dies if not loyal in ME2)
Ann Bryson (if allowed to)
Thane Krios
Kirrahe (if Thane not present)
Nyreen Kandros
Miranda Lawson (can in a few ways)
Samara (in a weird way, can kill herself so she wouldn't have to go by code to kill her daughter)
Eve, Urdnot Baraka *if Maelon's data isn't saved)

Let me ask you this...how is it possible for Shepard to unite the galaxy the best possible way? Because people sacrificed their lives to ensure victory. This includes usually three ME2 party members for most players.

However Mass Effect trilogy isn't just a book. There is player interaction. Would it have been so terrible to the Bioware team, if they just added an extra option that actually shows Shepard surviving or reuniting with his teammates? The high EMS Destroy is terrible story-telling since you clearly see Shepard being engulfed in an explosion but they never explain how he survives. The breath scene was absolutely terribly done.

[txgoldrush]

LotDeathhail wrote...

Short answer, no.

I've been playing Bioware games since Icewind Dale, which is still one of my favorite series. Not everything they've made was perfect, but they've had some real knock outs. Have I lost faith? After beating ME3 I did. I was super mad. But I got over it. DA2, was kind of a joke, and the writing was trash, and yet I played several times. I might never have the sense of wonder I had the first time I experienced the ME universe, but I'll give the next game a go. I just won't expect a life changing experience. Just nice way to waste 25-50 hours, which just enough time to forget my life is boring and pointless.

I think I felt more betrayed by video games all together. I waited 10 years for Diablo 3. That was a way bigger let down than ME3. Having several games this year not meet my expectations, really blew. But that's life. You get over it or you stay bitter and look super lame. Not to say that the OP is lame, but if they aren't over it 10 years (I know, I'm giving them WAY too much time) then you're super lame.

Bioware did not do Icewind Dale.

[txgoldrush]

Ishiken wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Sorry but Casey Hudson enacted this trope....

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/WordOfGod

And is it the starboy that forces the sacrifice OR is it the situation, the firing of the Crucible?

Its the latter....you have completely missed the point because all starchild does is explain th esituation, thats it. In fact, he never states that Destroy will kill you if you have high EMS.

Nevermind, lets see who makes sacrifices in the game....can or will, either way

Tarquin Victus
Mordin Solus or Padok Wiks (most of the time)
Rila
Ensign Prangley (if Jack is dead)
Legion
Admiral Koris (if the civilians are chosen)
Conrad Verner (dies if the undercover cop quest wasn't done in ME1)
Kasumi Goto and Zaeed Messani (if not loyal in ME2)
Grunt (dies if not loyal in ME2)
Ann Bryson (if allowed to)
Thane Krios
Kirrahe (if Thane not present)
Nyreen Kandros
Miranda Lawson (can in a few ways)
Samara (in a weird way, can kill herself so she wouldn't have to go by code to kill her daughter)
Eve, Urdnot Baraka *if Maelon's data isn't saved)

Let me ask you this...how is it possible for Shepard to unite the galaxy the best possible way? Because people sacrificed their lives to ensure victory. This includes usually three ME2 party members for most players.

However Mass Effect trilogy isn't just a book. There is player interaction. Would it have been so terrible to the Bioware team, if they just added an extra option that actually shows Shepard surviving or reuniting with his teammates? The high EMS Destroy is terrible story-telling since you clearly see Shepard being engulfed in an explosion but they never explain how he survives. The breath scene was absolutely terribly done.

and why does everything have to be spoonfed....why can't there be ambiguity?

Bioware made it ambigious, deal with it.

[Spartan6606]

yes

[ChurchOfZod]

Yes. Any company that could squander all the good will built up after ME2 doesn't deserve trust. It's the details that killed ME3 to me, not just the ending. From the broken journal, truncated start with a previously unknown character as your "bro", removal of all ME2 characters as squadmates, fetch quests, auto dialogue, the awful dream sequences, etc.

In 2 or 3 years when ME4 comes out I'll wait until it hits 20 bucks and then check it out.

[Robhuzz]

DA2 made me start wondering about the direction bioware was taking (though it wasn't unexpected... EA tends to do this to studios they take over) but I figured it was just a single slip up, I won't write of a company with an otherwise excellent track record for one single slip up.

ME3 didn't destroy my faith in bioware completely (I wouldn't be on their forums if it did...) but it has dropped enough for me to not pre order their games in the future. I'm still not writing them off completely though, I just don't trust them enough any more for pre orders or first day purchases. I will wait for reviews in the future instead...

Modifié par Robhuzz, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:01 .

[Abraham_uk]

How many times have we had this conversation?

Bioware Social Network. One trick pony for the win!

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:04 .

[Outsider edge]

txgoldrush wrote...

Ishiken wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Sorry but Casey Hudson enacted this trope....

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/WordOfGod

And is it the starboy that forces the sacrifice OR is it the situation, the firing of the Crucible?

Its the latter....you have completely missed the point because all starchild does is explain th esituation, thats it. In fact, he never states that Destroy will kill you if you have high EMS.

Nevermind, lets see who makes sacrifices in the game....can or will, either way

Tarquin Victus
Mordin Solus or Padok Wiks (most of the time)
Rila
Ensign Prangley (if Jack is dead)
Legion
Admiral Koris (if the civilians are chosen)
Conrad Verner (dies if the undercover cop quest wasn't done in ME1)
Kasumi Goto and Zaeed Messani (if not loyal in ME2)
Grunt (dies if not loyal in ME2)
Ann Bryson (if allowed to)
Thane Krios
Kirrahe (if Thane not present)
Nyreen Kandros
Miranda Lawson (can in a few ways)
Samara (in a weird way, can kill herself so she wouldn't have to go by code to kill her daughter)
Eve, Urdnot Baraka *if Maelon's data isn't saved)

Let me ask you this...how is it possible for Shepard to unite the galaxy the best possible way? Because people sacrificed their lives to ensure victory. This includes usually three ME2 party members for most players.

However Mass Effect trilogy isn't just a book. There is player interaction. Would it have been so terrible to the Bioware team, if they just added an extra option that actually shows Shepard surviving or reuniting with his teammates? The high EMS Destroy is terrible story-telling since you clearly see Shepard being engulfed in an explosion but they never explain how he survives. The breath scene was absolutely terribly done.

and why does everything have to be spoonfed....why can't there be ambiguity?

Bioware made it ambigious, deal with it.

But was Mass Effect 1 ambigious? Or Mass Effect 2 for that matter?

Both were straightforward stories where a big mysterious nemesis was introduced (Sovereign/Saren and the Collectors) and in the end you defeat them. Why divert from that path in the third entry?

Look at other familiar trilogies like Star Wars or the Lord of the Rings. All three entries have the same flow.

Look at a game like DeusEx: Human Revolution which has an ending closely resembling that of Mass Effect 3 in context. You don't hear of a fallout there because it flows comparable too it's predecessors Deus Ex 1 and 2.

Bioware did indeed make Mass Effect 3 ambigious and with that they made a mistake. Perfectly acceptable if it's a standalone game not acceptable when it's a final part in a trilogy which has a much different flow going.

[Sirsmirkalot]

Dragon Age 2 already destroyed most of my trust in this company.

[Femlob]

I love how txgoldrush equates magazine awards and sales in the millions to the product being worth half a damn. Then again, what can you expect from someone who's dumber than a bag of hammers?

As for the OP, trust does not apply. One trusts people, not things.

[MyAwesomeAfro]

Then do you trust the people at Bioware?

[LTKerr]

Femlob wrote...

I love how txgoldrush equates magazine awards and sales in the millions to the product being worth half a damn. Then again, what can you expect from someone who's dumber than a bag of hammers?

As for the OP, trust does not apply. One trusts people, not things.

Bioware employees are people, not things. Some of those people are the ones who decide everything major about a game so this is not about trusting a thing like a company but trusting their judgement. Gave Newell (Valve) would never allow the release of an unfinished game; Bioware's CEO allowed it twice. You could say we don't trust the judgement of the ones in charge of Bioware.

[Jadebaby]

Femlob wrote...

I love how txgoldrush equates magazine awards and sales in the millions to the product being worth half a damn. Then again, what can you expect from someone who's dumber than a bag of hammers?

As for the OP, trust does not apply. One trusts people, not things.

+1.

[JBPBRC]

Refara wrote...

No. Dragon Age 2 did that for me.

[Ishiken]

txgoldrush wrote...

Ishiken wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Sorry but Casey Hudson enacted this trope....

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/WordOfGod

And is it the starboy that forces the sacrifice OR is it the situation, the firing of the Crucible?

Its the latter....you have completely missed the point because all starchild does is explain th esituation, thats it. In fact, he never states that Destroy will kill you if you have high EMS.

Nevermind, lets see who makes sacrifices in the game....can or will, either way

Tarquin Victus
Mordin Solus or Padok Wiks (most of the time)
Rila
Ensign Prangley (if Jack is dead)
Legion
Admiral Koris (if the civilians are chosen)
Conrad Verner (dies if the undercover cop quest wasn't done in ME1)
Kasumi Goto and Zaeed Messani (if not loyal in ME2)
Grunt (dies if not loyal in ME2)
Ann Bryson (if allowed to)
Thane Krios
Kirrahe (if Thane not present)
Nyreen Kandros
Miranda Lawson (can in a few ways)
Samara (in a weird way, can kill herself so she wouldn't have to go by code to kill her daughter)
Eve, Urdnot Baraka *if Maelon's data isn't saved)

Let me ask you this...how is it possible for Shepard to unite the galaxy the best possible way? Because people sacrificed their lives to ensure victory. This includes usually three ME2 party members for most players.

However Mass Effect trilogy isn't just a book. There is player interaction. Would it have been so terrible to the Bioware team, if they just added an extra option that actually shows Shepard surviving or reuniting with his teammates? The high EMS Destroy is terrible story-telling since you clearly see Shepard being engulfed in an explosion but they never explain how he survives. The breath scene was absolutely terribly done.

and why does everything have to be spoonfed....why can't there be ambiguity?

Bioware made it ambigious, deal with it.

We dealt with it. Some of our reaction is that we no longer trust Bioware to make quality items. The topic of the thread is do we still trust Bioware. I don't understand why we should just accept it even though we dislike it.

If explaining how Shepard survived Destroy is spoon feeding, then a movie showing the main character being captured by the enemy, and then the next frame showing the enemy now dead and the main character escaping without any explanation would be considered good movie-making.

[MyAwesomeAfro]

frudi wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...
This kinda leads to another question that I'm reticent to ask, but it's related:

This kind of sentiment is brought up quite a bit, and more power to you for doing so. But for people who claim to be huge fans who had faith in the company and trusted them to release product that you wouldn't be disappointed in, sometimes all it takes is one bad product to make you change your mind.

I know I won't get a complete answer right now, but if the next Mass Effect game does what the marketing claims, is as good as the hype says it is, receives many top marks, and is said by fans to be pretty darn good, would that be enough to change your mind and restore that trust you once had? Would ME3 (and maybe DA2, if you lean that way) then be seen as statistical anomalies in BioWare's gameography, or has the trust been well and truly severed and each good, worthy game becomes but a stepping stone to restoring that faith?

To even begin to answer your question, I must first note that, at least as far as my relation to Bioware is concerned, your premise is actually wrong - I did not lose my trust in Bioware because ME3 was a bad game. Because it wasn't, not for me. I genuinely loved the game, except for the ending, even despite its quite a number of flaws - those I can overlook, as I've done with every Bioware game before. And despite my original scepticism, I've come to genuinely love the game's multiplayer and have sunk untold hours into it.

So, now that we've established that I do in fact still love ME3, let's move on to what it was that did make me lose faith in Bioware. Basically, it boils down to the ending, several aspects of it in fact - how it was written, how it made me feel and how Bioware handled the backlash.

1. the writing... I'm sorry, but it was horrendous, there's no way to be gentle or diplomatic about this. The whole Crucible plot was already sketchy and full of issues, but I could have swallowed it if the damn thing just did what was expected of it. But once Shepard collapsed at the console, the narrative just went completely of the rails. This isn't the place to rehash all the (virtual) ink that has already been spilled over this, so let me just say that I have absolutely no trust in the writing ability of whoever wrote that, at least as far as writing a coherent main plot and its resolution is concerned.
The problem has since been further compounded by release of first the Extended Cut and then Leviathan DLCs, which while both generally good and enjoyable, in my mind just piled even more nonsense on the already big pile of it that is the ending of ME3.
Combined with the all-over-the-place nature of the main overarching plot through the three ME games, I simply have to wonder if Bioware are, at this point, even capable of producing a satisfying and coherent main plot for a new series of games, especially in the ME-verse.

2. the emotional impact of the ending... while this is clearly related to the writing, I will handle it separately since it is a very important issue and because my first point was focused mostly on the rational side of it, not emotional.
I don't demand a necessarily happy experience from my games, I am quite comfortable with tragedy and sadness and any other 'negative' induced emotions in my entertainment. In fact I would say I actually prefer the emotional impact of sad and tragic stories over happy ones, at least in terms of memorability. A perfect example would be The Walking Dead game, which after a roller coaster ride of emotions in the end left me sad and emotionally drained... but also satisfied and impressed with its ability to 'get to me'. And most importantly, the day after finishing it I didn't wake up feeling like I had the will to live sucked out of me.
On the other hand, that's exactly how I felt for days after finishing ME3, it actually took me weeks to get fully back to normal. Now, kudos to Bioware for managing to get such a strong emotional reaction out of me... but I don't play games to get literally depressed by them! Seriously, a game should not make you feel like the love of your life just dumped you for your best friend, stole your car and ran over your dog as she backed said car down your driveway. And it certainly shouldn't force you to seek refuge in fanfiction and headcanon just to get over the lingering depression and reach some emotional closure.

3. Bioware's reaction... from the point of view of a long-time Bioware fan, their reaction was simply awful, just a text-book case of how to alienate your fanbase. From simply ignoring the issue at first, through the condescending, dismissive and vague press releases that followed, to the eventual announcement of the EC while at the same time making it clear that "we will not be discussing the ending"... even with the fans that actually bother to come to conventions just to meet them. Every single step of their post-ending PR campaign just oozed this sense that they simply do not care for the opinions and arguments of their fans. Worse, it made it seem like they take us for granted, that we should either learn to appreciate their great vision or just move the f*ck on.
But the worst part is, I know that that is not how most of the people at Bioware feel, or at least I'm convinced that they don't. And that just makes the disconnect all the worse... Bioware no longer seems like a collection of passionate people making great games for their fans, it seems like a greedy corporation stifling its own employees' talents and passions.

***
If you, Stan, or anyone else for that matter, has managed to reach this far... first, thank you for bothering to read this . And second, I hope this makes it clear that while I still love Bioware and the games they make, it will be a long, hard road for them to win back my faith and trust in them. I truly hope that DA3 and ME4 and many other great games will be the stepping stones on it... but I will remain doubtful all the way.

The greatest post. This summarises everything thats happened over this year perfectly.

[Jadebaby]

frudi wrote...
If you, Stan, or anyone else for that matter, has managed to reach this far... first, thank you for bothering to read this . And second, I hope this makes it clear that while I still love Bioware and the games they make, it will be a long, hard road for them to win back my faith and trust in them. I truly hope that DA3 and ME4 and many other great games will be the stepping stones on it... but I will remain doubtful all the way.

You know I read it frudi

Also...

Seriously, a game should not make you feel like the love of your life just dumped you for your best friend, stole your car and ran over your dog as she backed said car down your driveway.

Best part.

[Mr.Spo]

MyAwesomeAfro wrote...
TL;DR - ME3 was a missed opportunity. They didn't fix it properly and now the dgaf.

I did read the whole post, but this sums it up perfectly: the game was a missed opportunity and needed more time in development to be something truly incredible.

The lack of side content, over-whelmingly linearity, plot-holes, poor ending, poor final mission, all could have been fixed with more time in development, but EA's financial needs triumphed ahead of the needs of Mass Effect 3.

I'm hoping the final bit of DLC is something special, because I've began my final playthrough of the trilogy and want to experience it warts and all. It would just be nice to have that special bit of DLC to give me some fonder memories of the closing act of Shepard's story.