Face of Darkness wrote... That said, I'm not trying to step on anyones opinions, just voicing mine and why I thoroughly enjoyed this trilogy start to finish.
Don't get me wrong,I understand what you're saying and I happen to agree entirely. From the moment we found out about indoctrination in ME1, I started wondering if we'd see one of our team members controlled, or turning against us.
In fact, when I played ME3 the first time and found myself facing down Ashley and Udina I thought ".....OK,here it comes..."
Then I got to the end, and started wondering just how clever Bioware were trying to be.
So I popped back on the BSN for the first time sinceNeverwinter Nights, and realised other people were thinking very similar thoughts...
Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 04 décembre 2013 - 11:14 .
People have preferences. They develop andform opinions. And they don't like to be tricked. One of the central conceits of IT is that the end sequence is effectively a Reaper (see. Bioware) trick. That unless you choose right (literally), you choose wrong.[/quote]
I understand that plenty of people see it this way, but I don't. Why should choosing to control the Reapers be "wrong"? Is it really unfathomable that there might be a type of person out there with the confidence to say "I could do a better job than the Reapers"?
Control was initially the first ending I chose, before the EC. The Illusive Man was one of my favorite characters in the game, and I certainly sympathised with his train of thought. The lore even stays true to why he was unable to control the Reapers despite his best efforts, because he was indoctrinated before the events of the trilogy ever transpired (you would need to read the comic 'Mass Effect Evolution' or the summary on mass effect wiki to know this)
[quote]It's easy to understand why people would take issue with that, especially if they'bve invested themselves in a 200/300/400 hour plus game series and made their own decision based on their own experience.[/quote][/quote]
[/quote]
I think a lot of people went into ME3 thinking they would get that somewhat typical hollywood ending where no matter how it went down, they would end up beating the reapers somehow. Maybe losing some close friends along the way and decisions from the past games, even ME1, came up and bit you in the arse. One of those heavy decision type deals. At the end of it all, your goal was complete. You stopped the reapers, lived, and got to reunite with your bad ass crew of friends and live happily ever after. You know, something along those lines as cannon. I know I was. It just felt so openend the way the game ended.
I think a lot of people went into ME3 thinking they would get that somewhat typical hollywood ending where no matter how it went down, they would end up beating the reapers somehow. Maybe losing some close friends along the way and decisions from the past games, even ME1, came up and bit you in the arse. One of those heavy decision type deals. At the end of it all, your goal was complete. You stopped the reapers, lived, and got to reunite with your bad ass crew of friends and live happily ever after. You know, something along those lines as cannon. I know I was. It just felt so openend the way the game ended.
Ya I completely understand the disappointment from that point of view, the lack of closure would be quite disturbing. However for me a "happily ever after" ending would have been just as irritating if not more. Mass Effect was like any other movie or tv show where I wanted things to end in a smart and realistic fashion, and for a story that takes so many liberties, it would have been tough to not leave it somewhat openended without it seeming like a fairy tale. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a realistic story, but it certainly feels more realistic than ending it with the Normandy crew kicking back at a bar chugging a few cold ones while watching the sun set. The scene where your love interest hangs up your plaque on a wall with the other lives lost was just too perfect, as depressing as it was, because that is the result of war, no matter the context or outcome.
Finally I'll just say I'm glad they left it open ended because it really doesn't matter how it ended; some faction of people were going to be left feeling pissed off and unsatisfied just like others would have enjoyed it. The collective mind of humanity is never going to be unified in agreement of any subject, thats what makes us human. Leaving things open for interpretation is the optimal way to close, because it allows people to believe whatever they want, even if they are somewhat mad in the process.
But I'm happy so holla back
Modifié par Face of Darkness, 05 décembre 2013 - 12:46 .
The scene where your love interest hangs up your plaque on a wall with the other lives lost was just too perfect as depressing as it was, because that is the result of war, no matter the context or outcome.
Didn't do anything for me. My "LI" isn't even on the Normandy. Jack and Miranda look even more pathetic in the EC endings, just pining away and staring up in the sky, when they're right there on earth and near the citadel, and could be searching. It was better when I didn't see anything at all (which isn't all that great either).
I can't help but think someone in charge over there is highly spiritual, and now they have to inflict the rest of us with it. I liked them better in ME1 and ME2, when they were scraggly nerds inspired by action and sci-fi stories, and ended their stories accordingly. Not inspired by some ****** mystical/religious bullsh!t. /rant
Modifié par StreetMagic, 05 décembre 2013 - 01:22 .
StreetMagic wrote... I'm just saying Indoctrination itself never got much resolution. What got put under the rug is whether Shepard is indoctrinated in the first place or not. And if not, what makes Shepard different? I don't care what the answer is. I just think any answer is better than nothing.
Okay boys and girls I'm going to school you on how to prove indoctrination theory.
All of me 3 was a dream. Everything in me2 after you spot legion with your sniper rifle on the IFF mission, when he shoots the two husk, where you find the dragons teeth was a dream.
Why would you liquify humans to make a human Reaper. It is not practical. A more practical solutions shock troops for civilian population. Also humans are the test subject for Collected Reaper mutation gas. That is why we find the pile of dead bodies on the supposedly disabled collector cruiser. Those bodies where failed test. Once they developed a working gas they tried it on one of their own to make sure it worked for other species.
Next why did the collectors disappear after me 2 that couldn't have been all of them. The Reapers would uses them just as they used all the other races.
No one would pledge to fight the Reapers. Even after the Turians got there ass kicked yeah. I'm a Quarian admiral and I say bah humbug to the Reapers I want to kill Geth. Hm.
Gerrel was a complete ass in ME3 a character change from ME2. Gerrel may have wanted to kill the Geth, which I support, but he wasn't stupid.
Tali jumped sides in ME3 from ME2. Suddenly she felt sorry for the Geth. Sense when pre ME3 she'd go down fighting calling the Geth evil then now she's friends with one. Really. I'm not that trusting and my history with the Geth isn't that bad.
The crucible. Three ready made choices. Destroy could work shoot a containment unit and cause a massive reaction. okay, that I give you. Why would there be place to vaporize yourself. Stick your hands in here and become a hire being. Yeah listen to the catalyst he's responsible for everything that happened. Sorry makes no sense. Why would the Reaper just give up. Synthesis run and jump into a beam of green light that makes a hybrid DNA of synthetic and organic. This is a Yoda moment there is only is and is not, do or do not. DNA is DNA. On and off in a silicon processing chip is just a computer. Even then this would not remove hate. Organics would still fire on the Reapers, they would not understand what had just happens, that the Reapers learned to love, causing the Reapers to fire back. Results Reapers still win this one. Choosing to do nothing out of character for Shepard the whole point was to destroy the reapers. The most any of this should have is a effect on Shepard's view of synthetic. My Shepard is distrusting and wants them all dead.
It took the entire Quarian flotilla to stop a destroyer but a thanex missile can kill one. Why don't the ships above earth time there shots better.
The point is you were indoctrinated by the semi dead Reaper on the IFF mission. That's where it starts and my fan fiction makes ten times the sense of mass effect 3. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything more but I know there is way more.
Here's the best one yet bioware is saying no matter how hard you try you have to die in order to save the universe. Well I guess I'm not going to be a hero let someone else do the heroing so I live.
I never played on line or had the DLC's so when I died I died.
Clearly the entire series happened in the mind of astronaut Alan Shepard during his first flight into space. The Reapers actually invaded during this time because they believed the Space Race was enough to qualify humanity as a non-pre-space flight species and qualified to be harvested. The player Shepard is actually Alan Shepard's subconscious resisting the Indoctrination through out the entire series.
How do I know this? The final decision chamber looks like an enlarged version of the interior of the Mercury capsule. It all makes sense!
Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:33 .
Indoctrination has been subtle since the first game. Most people didn't pick up on it. You won't get an obvious answer. It'll be very subtle that you will have to look, listen, and pay attention for the clues.
So you were supposed to gather clues in order to solve a puzzle? Well if the ending is confusing to some, then people didn't find all the clues. Bioware had no intentions of just solving the puzzle. That defeats the purpose of the exercise.
Why is control wrong? Easiest answer?
/Tries to control Reapers Harbinger: Assuming Direct Control. Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine. (ME2) Codex: Indoctrination is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds. Shepard: Eternal, immortal, infinite. (EC) Harbinger: Thank us, beg us for immortality. (ME2) Shepard: ...could only achieve this by becoming something greater. (EC) Harbinger: Your species will be razed to a new existence. (ME2)
/tries to synthesize with Reapers Harbinger: We will bring your species into harmony with our own. (ME2) EDI: We may transcend mortality itself. (EC) Harbinger: Thank us, beg us for immortality. (ME2) EDI: To reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine. (EC) Harbinger: Your species will be razed to a new existence. (ME2)
/comes to destroy Reapers Harbinger tries to sway you from picking the destroy option, offers control/synthesis, and threatens to kill all synthetics if you don't do what he says. Codex: ...reprogramming the brain (mind control) through physical (headaches, TIM scene) and psychological conditioning as well as other subliminal (subtle) methods.
Shepard=Indoctrinated EDI=Indoctrinated
Psychological manipulation is like a doctor telling you to stop eating cake or you'll gain weight. Much like Harbinger says, if you don't pick the other two options besides destroy, I'm going to smash the mass relays, kill all synthetics, and strand everyone in the Sol system unless you do what I say.
TLDR: Anyone who picked control, synthesis, refuse, or did not get the "breath scene" with Shepard waking up at the end just flushed 5 years of work down the toilet. The Reapers won the game, just like Bioware said would happen.
Everyone was either harvested or used for slave labor as per secondary codex entry "Harvesting". Squadmates and LI were used for slave labor. Not sure about everyone else though. Not everyone was deemed harvestable.
People should read that thing, it has lots of useful information which could explain some of these thinigs.
BloodxGusher wrote... I don't know how much of the IT you know of but the from what I have read, those visions are apart of a months/years long process on indoctrination on Shep. The final push I believe are at the end of the game.
Yup.
As far as IT goes, Shepard is not indoctrinated - but undergoing an indoctrination attempt at the end of the game (Priority Earth onwards). The recurring nightmares arejust one of many symptoms that something's not quite right.
The conversation with the Catalyst - and the choice Shepard is faced with - is essentially the tipping point.
But hey - it's just one interpretation.
My interpretation as well. Honestly it seems completely obvious to me that the Reapers were constantly attempting to indoctrinate Shepard since ME1 till the end of the trilogy.
I'm shocked that such a large faction of people would rather put the blinders on and say "No, IT is stupid and anyone who believes it is overthinking. Bioware just succumbed to ****ty writing." Even if you believe something else happened, ruling IT out is incredibly thick when it is a central theme of the entire game. Furthermore, it's pretty hilarious that these people would prefer to be mad and take out their anger on people who believe in IT. That said, it is clear to me that there is overwhelming evidence for IT throughout all 3 games, though most of it is in ME3
Imo, the non-believers are just jealous of IT supporters who wound up thoroughly enjoying the conclusion of the game. It's the best video game story I've ever experienced, and I doubt anything else will live up to it for me.
The main problem that I find with IT is how terrible of a plot gimmick it is. As a player we have no idea what experiencing Indoctrination is like, from Shepard's perspective this is terrifying, but from a story telling perspective it is a terrible plot device. Because so little is known about experiencing Indoctrination anything in the game can be considered the attempts of Indoctrination because there are no rules. That lore inconsistency over there, that's indoctrination. Ambient noise? that's Indoctrination. Plot-hole, indoctrination. Unpatched glitch, that's indoctrination. When something has no limitations established by the story it makes it lame, that's partly the problem with the Crucible.
I like IT, I think it is an extremely clever way to view all the surreal and nonsensical aspects of the ending sequence, and turn them into a servicable ending of sorts. However, it does have gaping plot holes of its own, in addition to all the stuff I said above. If people want to believe head-canon it then Catalyst bless them, but at this point its evident that IT is just a crutch to help people get over how awful the writing at the end was.
Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:30 .
Amazing just how many IT propaganda videos are kicking around. That one doesn't even try to make an argument.
Alan, like I said earlier, you're not going to get a simple, yes or no, black and white answer to this. I wouldn't expect one either.
If people expect one, you'll end up being disappointed.
It's funny how the anti-ending crowd talks about how they "paid attention to the lore" and understand this series better than the people who wrote it. How it doesn't fit with the game, or comes out of nowhere (no foreshadowing) but we pro-enders managed to figure out that the ending does fit with the lore and does fit with what's going on during the course of the game. We paid attention to all the little details (clues, not plot holes) that Bioware told us to find. We put the pieces to the puzzle together. Maybe that's why it doesn't make sense to you. You didn't have all the pieces put together.
What's the upside of ruling out IT? The downside is obvious, and I don't see any actual benefit to Bio or anyone else if they rule it out.
Pretty much.
It'd be like David Chase finally explaining what happened in the Sopranos finale after the cut to black. Speculation is a good thing from a business standpoint.
Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 05 décembre 2013 - 09:51 .
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