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Why does Bioware refuse to deny the Indoctrination Theory?

Débuté par Pantanplan , janv. 04 2013 09:10

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#276
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:47

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

I wouldn't call indoctrination the "theme" of the series, but it has been one of the Reaper's primary weapons and tools from the very start.

Know your enemy. The Reapers bend organics to their will. They use organic ideals, hopes and beliefs to further their own agenda. They alter perceptions and create puppets of their enemies. This is established and evidenced Mass Effect canon. That's wha' they do.

To dismiss the potential for Shepard becoming indoctrinated through Reaper contact out of hand is to dismiss a good part of the Mass Effect lore.


Exactly. I still don't pay attention to IT, but this is important. The sheer size of the Reaper threat is already bad enough, but they had to make it even worse by putting in mind control. And it's that mind control that has been their weapon in Shepard's counterparts.

#277
Farangbaa
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:49

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Could someone please explain to me what state of mind you have to be in to prefer ME3 being a complete lie/dream over a ****ty ending?

All the outrage of "your decisions not mattering", and then counter with the entire game being a lie?

I mean.. damn, that's pretty extreme.

#278
Iakus
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:50

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Face of Darkness wrote...

Everyone is free to have their own opinion, just like I'm free to have mine that I believe the story ended perfectly


A pity that, in a trilogy of games that touts player choice as being oh-so-important, more people can't feel the same

#279
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Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:51

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Psychevore wrote...

Could someone please explain to me what state of mind you have to be in to prefer ME3 being a complete lie/dream over a ****ty ending?

All the outrage of "your decisions not mattering", and then counter with the entire game being a lie?

I mean.. damn, that's pretty extreme.


Either choice sucks, correct. The one appeal though to indoctrination is that there's continuity to the universe.. that all of this crazy **** didn't even happen. lol

#280
CroGamer002
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:54

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Because PR damage control.

#281
Farangbaa
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:55

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StreetMagic wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Could someone please explain to me what state of mind you have to be in to prefer ME3 being a complete lie/dream over a ****ty ending?

All the outrage of "your decisions not mattering", and then counter with the entire game being a lie?

I mean.. damn, that's pretty extreme.


Either choice sucks, correct. The one appeal though to indoctrination is that there's continuity to the universe.. that all of this crazy **** didn't even happen. lol


If IT is really true, I'm going to make a shrine to Bioware somewhere in my house. What an achievement.

But I don't think it is.

#282
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Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:56

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Psychevore wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Could someone please explain to me what state of mind you have to be in to prefer ME3 being a complete lie/dream over a ****ty ending?

All the outrage of "your decisions not mattering", and then counter with the entire game being a lie?

I mean.. damn, that's pretty extreme.


Either choice sucks, correct. The one appeal though to indoctrination is that there's continuity to the universe.. that all of this crazy **** didn't even happen. lol


If IT is really true, I'm going to make a shrine to Bioware somewhere in my house. What an achievement.

But I don't think it is.


It's been done before, to great effect (see the Last Temptation of Christ). I just don't expect game writers to tap into that level of writing. But whatever. I guess we just wait and see what they plan next.

#283
essarr71
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:58

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Psychevore wrote...

Could someone please explain to me what state of mind you have to be in to prefer ME3 being a complete lie/dream over a ****ty ending?

All the outrage of "your decisions not mattering", and then counter with the entire game being a lie?

I mean.. damn, that's pretty extreme.


The game isnt a lie.. It's an old man's bedtime story. 

Modifié par essarr71, 05 décembre 2013 - 04:59 .

#284
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Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 04:59

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essarr71 wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Could someone please explain to me what state of mind you have to be in to prefer ME3 being a complete lie/dream over a ****ty ending?

All the outrage of "your decisions not mattering", and then counter with the entire game being a lie?

I mean.. damn, that's pretty extreme.


The ending isnt a lie.. It's an old man's bedtime story. 


That's even funnier. That old man needs to be locked up for telling children this stuff.

#285
Face of Darkness
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:00

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I can see people being upset about BW claiming that your decisions matter when they in fact did not matter at all. I never paid attention to anything BW said, so I didn't care. That said, even if you think something sucks, get over it. Dexter devolved into a horrendous show after just 1 season and I was pissed that I even got through season 5. Instead of complaining, I just started watching Hannibal which is infinitely better in all respects besides lack of ******.

I know I know its on NBC, but seriously, Hannibal is amazing.

Deathsaurer wrote...

Having an opinion is fine but the attitude you're presenting in defending it rubs people (like myself) the wrong way. Both sides are guilty of this to be sure but that's an example of the way I don't want to see the community go. It's not helpful to anyone.


fair enough, I'll tone it down. I just find it funny that there are people still complaining while acting extremely condescending towards IT supporters, as if it isn't even possibly true. 

#286
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Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:06

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I can see people being upset about BW claiming that your decisions matter when they in fact did not matter at all.


Your choices affected the game as a whole. The entire game is the end of the series, not the last 5 minutes.

#287
Deathsaurer
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:06

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I agree it goes both ways and it isn't helpful coming from either side. The back and forth only damages the community as a whole. Calling IT fans loons is uncalled for. This forum could do with a lot more respect IMO.

#288
ElSuperGecko
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:08

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StreetMagic wrote...
It's been done before, to great effect (see the Last Temptation of Christ). I just don't expect game writers to tap into that level of writing. But whatever. I guess we just wait and see what they plan next.


To be fair, Bioware have tried something similar things before, firstly in the Neverwinter Nights DLC "Hordes of the Underdark"

As you can see in scene above, the player is transported (by the final boss) into an illusionary world, where they're told they won and a victory feast is in progress.  Amusingly, if the player accepts this, the credits roll as if the game was over.

It's a very obvious ploy though - you're even given the option to disbelieve the illusion - leading to the actual final battle as seen above.

Jade Empire's "Sacrifice" ending is another example - the player does what they believe is in the best interests, but the ending has a very sinister overtone.

If - IF - Bioware intended Reaper indoctrination to be at work in Mass Effect 3 - it's a much more subtle affair, left entirely to the player's imagination.  They will have simply presented us with the question - a little bit of doubt, a  "what if..?" scenario - and left us to come up with our own answer.

#289
Guest_Morocco Mole_*
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:10

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The nile is a pretty cool river

#290
Deathsaurer
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:12

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Morocco Mole wrote...

The nile is a pretty cool river


Seriously this sort of thing needs to stop. Period.

#291
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:13

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Lots of speculations for everyone. :mellow:

#292
Guest_SR72_*
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:17

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Losing interest in the topic is far more reasonable than continuing to btch about how you hate the ending, years after finishing the game


I think these guys spend more time spouting yo-dawg synthetics memes, ABC, and other stuff than actually playing the game. Even the CEO said their feedback is becoming less constructive and more destructive. So they made them the EC, and told them to move on with their lives.

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

http://social.biowar.../index/13503524

Yet, they are still here demanding answers, closure, etc.

The guys at IGN made this chart to show people that there is not just 3 identical endings. Hey, least they are being constructive about it. 

ca.ign.com/wikis/mass-effect-3/End_Game_Chart_-_With_Spoilers

Modifié par SR72, 05 décembre 2013 - 05:27 .

#293
Dean_the_Young
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:19

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iakus wrote...

Face of Darkness wrote...

Everyone is free to have their own opinion, just like I'm free to have mine that I believe the story ended perfectly


A pity that, in a trilogy of games that touts player choice as being oh-so-important, more people can't feel the same

A pity more people didn't pick up on Bioware's style of delivering choices until the end of the trilogy, instead of the previous two games and all the other recent Bioware works.

#294
Dean_the_Young
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:21

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Deathsaurer wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

The nile is a pretty cool river


Seriously this sort of thing needs to stop. Period.

Not really. Period.

Some people need to be told they're being silly and unrealistic. Period. Honesty is the only form of respect left towards them. Period. Indulging denialism so long after the fact is disrespectful paternalism. Period.

Period period period.

#295
Deathsaurer
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:23

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That doesn't fly when the catch phrase for the endings is speculation for everyone.

#296
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:26

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Deathsaurer wrote...

That doesn't fly when the catch phrase for the endings is speculation for everyone.


Exactly. I may not like some theories, but other players shouldn't be forced to "obey" other players in this matter. It seems like people want IT'ers to literally get on their knees and start sucking dicks. It isn't cool, when we're all peers here and in the same boat.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 05 décembre 2013 - 05:26 .

#297
Dean_the_Young
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:31

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Deathsaurer wrote...

That doesn't fly when the catch phrase for the endings is speculation for everyone.

Sure it does. Ambiguity isn't a cover for all-encompassing insanity. The speculation space provided is within the scope of the narrative and context of the potential canon states- it isn't a justification for out-of-scope absurd for the endings, any more than it was for any of the other ambiguous choices in the series.


People who cling to the idea that speculation for everyone means every speculation is fair game are the same sort of silly people who insist that because it's 'their Shepard' that means the game is obligated to give them whatever dialogue they want and react as they wanted the story to go... even though the franchise and CRPGs as a medium never have. It's willfull denial and absurdity.

#298
ElSuperGecko
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:33

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StreetMagic wrote...
Exactly. I may not like some theories, but other players shouldn't be forced to "obey" other players in this matter.  we're all peers here and in the same boat.


Hater's gonna hate, unfortunately.  And there's nothing so unpopular as another person's opinion.

#299
Dean_the_Young
Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:34

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StreetMagic wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

That doesn't fly when the catch phrase for the endings is speculation for everyone.


Exactly. I may not like some theories, but other players shouldn't be forced to "obey" other players in this matter. It seems like people want IT'ers to literally get on their knees and start sucking dicks. It isn't cool, when we're all peers here and in the same boat.

That's, uh, an interesting analogy. A bit missing the point, but interesting.

Personally I suspect most people's views towards IT'ers are 'just accept that it's not real, and have fun knowing that rather than insisting that it is.' How that's comparable to wanting crazy fellatio, no idea.

#300
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Posté 05 décembre 2013 - 05:35

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

That doesn't fly when the catch phrase for the endings is speculation for everyone.

Sure it does. Ambiguity isn't a cover for all-encompassing insanity. The speculation space provided is within the scope of the narrative and context of the potential canon states- it isn't a justification for out-of-scope absurd for the endings, any more than it was for any of the other ambiguous choices in the series.


People who cling to the idea that speculation for everyone means every speculation is fair game are the same sort of silly people who insist that because it's 'their Shepard' that means the game is obligated to give them whatever dialogue they want and react as they wanted the story to go... even though the franchise and CRPGs as a medium never have. It's willfull denial and absurdity.


I'm not silly. I don't even believe in IT. Or anything else, necessarily. I'm an outsider to this whole argument. I don't know what to think of the endings myself.. until I see the next game. I just take the "speculations" idea at face value. I didn't say it. Mac did. You don't need to psychoanalyze me and make it any more than that.
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