739 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

There is no indoctrination or Reapers. The beacon was an LSD-bomb made by the Protheans and the series is his resulting trip. Prove me wrong.

[AlanC9]

I prefer Owl Creek Bridge Theory --- everything past the intro to ME2 is a hallucination Shepard experiences while dying from anoxia as he falls onto Alchera.

It's got a lot more intellectual integrity than IT, since it doesn't pick and choose what's true. It's all lies.

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
This is that old postmodernist all-interpretations-are-valid move, right? There's no real MEU in the first place, so any coherent interpretation is just fine.

Pretty much.  It is an open-ended story, after all, one knowingly and deliberately lft open to interpretation.

The important word is coherent I guess.  Can you provide precedence of your claims?  Can you provide context? That's the key.  Indoctrination is one of the Reaper's most prevailant and ofetn-used weapons throughout the Mass Effect series.  (It pretty much had to be, as they didn't arrive en masse until the final installment - up until that point you were really just fighting against their thralls).

CronoDragoon wrote...
Fact actually, given the EC slides.

Both true, false and irrelevant at the same time.  The EC slides show what they show - but they weren't shipped with the original game and they weren't part of the original vision for the game.  Also, all of them are entirely irrelevant when it comes to making decisions IN-GAME as they happen AFTER the game ends.  Player agency effectively ends with Shepard's final decision - anything which happens after that is bothentirely out of the player's control and irrelevant when it comes to deciding which path to take in the first place.

I've seen it said that the "Breath Scene" amounts to nothing more than Shepard's final, dying breath; if that's true, then the ending slides can quite as easily represent Shepard's final hopes or dreams.

If you can't justify your Shepard's actions without referring to the ending slides for context, then you can't justify your Shepard's actions full stop.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 05 décembre 2013 - 11:40 .

[LinksOcarina]

iakus wrote...

Face of Darkness wrote...

Everyone is free to have their own opinion, just like I'm free to have mine that I believe the story ended perfectly

A pity that, in a trilogy of games that touts player choice as being oh-so-important, more people can't feel the same

Considering that player choice is always a sort of misnomer, I am surprised people are angry about it.

If nothing else it shows the power of Mass Effect as a cultural pillar in the end, a game for the ages that rarely comes around now a days. 

[KaiserShep]

CronoDragoon wrote...

There is no indoctrination or Reapers. The beacon was an LSD-bomb made by the Protheans and the series is his resulting trip. Prove me wrong.

So, Mass Effect in a nutshell?

[SwobyJ]

I just don't worry about it anymore; IT, other theories, 'literalism'. Sure, maybe I have my head in the clouds (to put it nicely), but I do think I have a good *general* view of what happened, where the series is going.. and I'm just interested and even pretty excited about it.

Even if I'm wrong, it's better than being as bitter as so many on BSN *and* the IT forum (and others) seem to be. Yikes.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:14 .

[SwobyJ]

AlanC9 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Catalyst isn't lying about what the Crucible does.

Fact or opinion?

Fact actually, given the EC slides.

But the slides are lying, except when they're not. You remember that, right?

Personally, I preferred Original Recipe IT, where the Destroy slides were lies too but somehow Shepard woke up after experiencing them, or something like that. But that one fell out of favor when it became clear that the big IT reveal DLC isn't coming.

Edit: I guess that's actually IT Mark 2, since obviously the theory predates the slides.

I like to think of each of the slides and narrations telling a segment of the larger truth. That's my 'IT' I guess. Earthly + Heavenly + Transcendental themed information, all happening at the same time.

Eh whatever. We'll see if they announce anything soon or next year.

[Face of Darkness]

My opinions aside, it's funny how polarized peoples thoughts are, yet formed from the same process;

IT supporters: my interpretation of the game and ME lore clearly allows for IT and makes it very believable and compelling

IT haters: my interpretation of BioWare's comments clearly do not allow for IT, making it seem ludicrous and a mental reach for something that isn't there

IT supporters: there is plenty of evidence throughout the game that supports IT

IT haters: none of the evidence is strong enough to fully support IT

IT supporters: dude it's there, why can't you see it?

IT haters: dude you're grasping for straws, how are you this gullible?

IT supporters: you're blind

IT haters: you're an idiot

cycle begins again at the top. The only difference is that IT supporters are happy, IT haters are clearly mad.

[SwobyJ]

Sort of FoD.

Some IT supporters are not very happy at all in this. They point their anger at Bioware for 'passing it up', after all DLC is done. Some people support IT without believing Bioware is even going to follow-up on it anymore.

And with EC and Citadel DLCs out, there are a good number of people who hate IT because it wrecks the game that they at least enjoy now.

Your post would be more true several months ago. Much more divisive then. And several months before that was the ****storm.

[CronoDragoon]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
Both true, false and irrelevant at the same time.

This should be good.

The EC slides show what they show - but they weren't shipped with the original game and they weren't part of the original vision for the game.

Neither would an IT DLC. Are you claiming ITers would discount an indoctrination DLC because it wasn't shipped with the vanilla game?

And what is this original vision stuff? You have no idea what the original vision even was.

Also, all of them are entirely irrelevant when it comes to making decisions IN-GAME as they happen AFTER the game ends.  Player agency effectively ends with Shepard's final decision - anything which happens after that is bothentirely out of the player's control and irrelevant when it comes to deciding which path to take in the first place.

Cool. Doesn't matter. You quoted someone claiming the Catalyst tells the truth about what happens and asserted it might not be true. Retrospect is entirely valid when seeing whether someone is or isn't telling the truth. RPing is irrelevant to what you quoted.

I've seen it said that the "Breath Scene" amounts to nothing more than Shepard's final, dying breath; if that's true, then the ending slides can quite as easily represent Shepard's final hopes or dreams.

Well, you're at least not alone in misunderstanding the context of that quote. Take solace in that.

If you can't justify your Shepard's actions without referring to the ending slides for context, then you can't justify your Shepard's actions full stop.

I don't care about justifying Shepard's actions. The EC slides are fact. Deal with it.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 06 décembre 2013 - 04:40 .

[Rotward]

Why does this thread still exist. The only indoctrinated people are the followers of the IT theory. Were it accurate, the extended cut would have included confirmation. 

/less trollish comment time

Shepard's story is over. If indoctrination were really an issue, bioware could build a whole new game around that. Unless shepard ends up somehow incarnating as the villain in the next game, IT is just a fun what-if scenario. 

Modifié par Rotward, 06 décembre 2013 - 05:03 .

[Eryri]

Rotward wrote...

Unless shepard ends up somehow incarnating as the villain in the next game...

I'd actually be quite content with that. I would have liked a happy ending for Shepard, but it's more important that the ME universe makes sense, and to me, a magic super weapon that Liara found down the back of the Prothean's sofa, does not make sense. The Reapers failing to shut down the relays, or the conduit to the citadel, does not make sense, nor does Harbinger missing such an easy shot. I find it such an uninspired, easy victory, dependent on the protagonist's luck and the antagonists' incompetence.

Shepard's indoctrination seems like a perfect example of what I believe is called a Chekhov's Gun. It seems such a natural direction for the story to take. We've never seen a character we cared about fall to indoctrination. I would have thought it a great opportunity for drama. For some intense psychological horror. Part of me almost wants to see Shepard betray his friends, even his love interest. And if one of our tasks as the new protagonist is to fight and even kill an indoctrinated Shepard, then I think I could live with that.

Do I think Bioware intended what has become known as IT? I don't know, and it doesn't really matter to me. But I do think it could become an interesting direction for the franchise if handled cleverly.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Eryri wrote...

Rotward wrote...

Unless shepard ends up somehow incarnating as the villain in the next game...

I'd actually be quite content with that. I would have liked a happy ending for Shepard, but it's more important that the ME universe makes sense, and to me, a magic super weapon that Liara found down the back of the Prothean's sofa, does not make sense. The Reapers failing to shut down the relays, or the conduit to the citadel, does not make sense, nor does Harbinger missing such an easy shot. I find it such an uninspired, easy victory, dependent on the protagonist's luck and the antagonists' incompetence.

Shepard's indoctrination seems like a perfect example of what I believe is called a Chekhov's Gun. It seems such a natural direction for the story to take. We've never seen a character we cared about fall to indoctrination. I would have thought it a great opportunity for drama. For some intense psychological horror. Part of me almost wants to see Shepard betray his friends, even his love interest. And if one of our tasks as the new protagonist is to fight and even kill an indoctrinated Shepard, then I think I could live with that.

Do I think Bioware intended what has become known as IT? I don't know, and it doesn't really matter to me. But I do think it could become an interesting direction for the franchise if handled cleverly.

According to the making of video they originally intended to include an indoctrination sequence. Ultimately, though they removed it because they couldn't implement the player's controls, or something like that.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 06 décembre 2013 - 06:45 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I wish they would of removed the dream sequences, I hate those.

[ImaginaryMatter]

DinoSteve wrote...

I wish they would of removed the dream sequences, I hate those.

Yep, Shepard feels guilt over duct kid; we get it BioWare, only need to see the scene once.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 06 décembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[NeonFlux117]

I don't know about you guys and gals. But I thought the face value ending was awesome. Such High level stuff and integrity. It was truly glorious and made COMPLETE sense to me. I really understood it. I don't see the problem with the catalyst and reapers and stuff. I thought the ending wasn't confusing or interpretive at all.

[Vicious]

I don't care about justifying Shepard's actions. The EC slides are fact. Deal with it.

indeed, people fanfic like crazy with the EC slides. Synthesis is the best ending for the galaxy, fitting it's place as the hardest one to get. Destroy is the worst and completely pointless if you have other options. Don't try to fanfic past that, 'synthesis removes diversity' blahblah. Endings slides don't say it, it didn't happen.

There was a reference back in ME2 of how much easier it would be if all the races just had the same DNA. Spoken by a Turian, no less. 

Modifié par Vicious, 06 décembre 2013 - 07:28 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I wish they would of removed the dream sequences, I hate those.

Yep, Shepard feels guilt over duct kid; we get it BioWare, only need to see the scene once.

tbh if the IT was true the dream sequences make perfect sense, but we know its not true so what we are left with is Shepard's fixation on a small boy, its kinda creepy.

[SwobyJ]

Eryri wrote...

Rotward wrote...

Unless shepard ends up somehow incarnating as the villain in the next game...

I'd actually be quite content with that. I would have liked a happy ending for Shepard, but it's more important that the ME universe makes sense, and to me, a magic super weapon that Liara found down the back of the Prothean's sofa, does not make sense. The Reapers failing to shut down the relays, or the conduit to the citadel, does not make sense, nor does Harbinger missing such an easy shot. I find it such an uninspired, easy victory, dependent on the protagonist's luck and the antagonists' incompetence.

Shepard's indoctrination seems like a perfect example of what I believe is called a Chekhov's Gun. It seems such a natural direction for the story to take. We've never seen a character we cared about fall to indoctrination. I would have thought it a great opportunity for drama. For some intense psychological horror. Part of me almost wants to see Shepard betray his friends, even his love interest. And if one of our tasks as the new protagonist is to fight and even kill an indoctrinated Shepard, then I think I could live with that.

Do I think Bioware intended what has become known as IT? I don't know, and it doesn't really matter to me. But I do think it could become an interesting direction for the franchise if handled cleverly.

You were the chosen one!!!!!

Get ready.

[SwobyJ]

Vicious wrote...

I don't care about justifying Shepard's actions. The EC slides are fact. Deal with it.

indeed, people fanfic like crazy with the EC slides. Synthesis is the best ending for the galaxy, fitting it's place as the hardest one to get. Destroy is the worst and completely pointless if you have other options. Don't try to fanfic past that, 'synthesis removes diversity' blahblah. Endings slides don't say it, it didn't happen.

There was a reference back in ME2 of how much easier it would be if all the races just had the same DNA. Spoken by a Turian, no less. 

...but noooo, the universe loves diversity.

[TheBlackBaron]

AlanC9 wrote...

I prefer Owl Creek Bridge Theory --- everything past the intro to ME2 is a hallucination Shepard experiences while dying from anoxia as he falls onto Alchera.

It's got a lot more intellectual integrity than IT, since it doesn't pick and choose what's true. It's all lies.

*chuckles*

I like it. 

[ElSuperGecko]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Neither would an IT DLC. Are you claiming ITers would discount an indoctrination DLC because it wasn't shipped with the vanilla game?

I'm pretty sure many anti-IT'ers would, in the same way many dismiss the events of Arrival with "LOL, didn't play it, didn't happen".  The fact remains that the Extended Cut slides were not shipped with the game, and not all Mass Effect players will have had the opportunity to experience them.

CronoDragoon wrote...
And what is this original vision stuff? You have no idea what the original vision even was.

By "original vision", I actually mean "game, as shipped".

DLC is fine and dandy - I've happily bought and played all of it, for all the Mass Effect games, so I take it into account when I assess my experience and my decisions.  I'm also well aware that the vast majority of Mass Effect players have not and do not .  Quite a lot of Mass Effect 3 players will not have even played the previous games in the series.  They're not going to justify what they did/did not do by referring to material they did/did not play.

CronoDragoon wrote...
Cool. Doesn't matter. You quoted someone claiming the Catalyst tells the truth about what happens and asserted it might not be true. Retrospect is entirely valid when seeing whether someone is or isn't telling the truth. RPing is irrelevant to what you quoted.

Get the context right.  I asserted that it might not be true, yes.  I also asserted that it might be true, and that either way, it's irrelevant when it comes to making Shepard's final decision.  Retrospect is absolutely invalid when it comes to Shepard's perception of the Catalyst, it's arguments and the choice it lays in front of him, as the context provided by the Extended Cut ending slides only have any relevance a: after you've performed your final action in the game (and even then, they're still open to interpretation) and b:  if you actually own and experience them in the first place.  Dismiss the roleplaying and interpretative elements of the game and you might as well be playing Space Invaders.

CronoDragoon wrote...
Well, you're at least not alone in misunderstanding the context of that quote. Take solace in that.... I don't care about justifying Shepard's actions. The EC slides are fact. Deal with it.

In other words, "I have no valid counter-argument, so I'm going to be snide instead".  I don't need to take solace in anything, I'm perfectly happy with my experience of Mass Effect, as far as I'm concerned it's one of the most entertaining and enjoyable games I've ever played.  Deal with that.

[Seboist]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I prefer Owl Creek Bridge Theory --- everything past the intro to ME2 is a hallucination Shepard experiences while dying from anoxia as he falls onto Alchera.

It's got a lot more intellectual integrity than IT, since it doesn't pick and choose what's true. It's all lies.

*chuckles*

I like it. 

It would explain all the discontinuity and moronic things like Lazarus, Space Terminator, sovlving silly daddy issues over preparing for the reapers, Derperus Sith Empire, Crucible,etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

Morocco Mole wrote...

You're all wrong. Its all a story in the mind of an autistic man named Shepard

All Shepards are actually sole-survivor Shepard, who's having delusional breaks from reality from his or her psychiatric center after breaking down after Akuze.

Squadmates and characters are fellow patients or staff who have been drawn into Shepard's fantasies, some because they're just as crazy and some because they're humoring Shepard. The antagonists are the ones who don't entertain Shepard's insanity, with the Reapers being a new medical-synthetic VI/AI which is bringing forth a new rehabilitative treatment that sees people leave the center.