739 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Face of Darkness wrote...
So when Shepard first sees Legion, a random Geth, who has randomly taken an N7 armor decoration, NONE of you IT haters thought hmmm.....thats weird. When it saves you from a husk (that somehow sneaks up on you) and then is the first Geth ever to talk to you, none of you saw that as weird? A Geth aboard a Reaper at the EXACT time TIM sends you to the Reaper is perfectly reasonable?

Weird things happen in ME. Legion was as reasonable as, say, discovering Tali's magic voice recording exactly when we needed it. You want the rest of the list?

And are you seriously proposing that Legion's entire existence is a product of Indoctrination?

It just seems like so many of you view it as yea that was cool, and the Cerberus scientists getting indoctrinated sucks for them. But Shepard is too strong for that, so I'm not gonna bother even keeping this in the back of my mind as I continue to play

 You're badly confused. No one denies that Bio could have written a game where Shepard became indoctrinated. They're denying that Bio did do it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 décembre 2013 - 04:44 .

[Deathsaurer]

I certainly thought Legion was odd, he gives you every reason to think that. I never thought he was a hallucination. Joker spotted a Geth ship docked with the Reaper on the ladar. Everyone should have expected to run into a Geth just not to have it save you.

[Face of Darkness]

I think I'm just saying IT antagonists seem to be defining indoctrination too sharply. The Cerberus scientists are just an example, Shepard doesn't need to become indoctrinated in that same fashion. He doesn't spend a lot of time with any one Reaper influence, but he does witness or have direct contact with nearly every single possible one; Saren, Benezia, the Thorian, Sovereign, the derelict Reaper, TIM, Harbinger, and endless Reaper forces

I don't even think Shepard is necessarily indoctrinated at any point. I think too many of you view it a little black and white when it is more of a struggle between two forces; the mental will of Shepard, and the machine configuration that the Reapers use to electrically interact with the neurons of the brain. While indoctrination seems like an invincible weapon, it's actually a two way street which allows a will strong enough to fight back against indoctrination and instead influence the Reapers.

This is what I see when the Catalyst says "my solution will no longer work." The entire conversation with the Catalyst is the first time the Reapers acknowledge you on an equal level, and allow you to decide the future. You're not actually at the Citadel, it is just a space which you and the Reapers can both interpret in similar fashion, giving you very straightforward options

[Deathsaurer]

I certainly like the idea the Catalyst is interacting with Shepard in a VR space similar to the Leviathan's. It's one of the really cool ideas that stemmed from IT and I think it makes a lot of sense. Part of the reason I don't understand the bickering. Even if you disagree with a theory it can give you something interesting to consider.

[Rotward]

Face of Darkness wrote...

I'm amazed at people's confidence against indoctrination. Shepard has encountered the Reapers and so many individual situations where he has certainly felt their influence. There have been so many times where he clearly overcame indoctrination attempts, but at the cost of a very plausible ****** in the armor.

The derelict Reaper is one of the bigger foundations for IT, and it's very arguable that Shepard suffers his main ****** in the armor here. As said in one of the Cerberus Scientist vids; even though the Reaper is dead, it still warps space time just by being there. The scientists felt it's influence, and were slowly moved down a path over a time. The first sign was a scientist simply thinking he saw a brick in the wall move itself.

So when Shepard first sees Legion, a random Geth, who has randomly taken an N7 armor decoration, NONE of you IT haters thought hmmm.....thats weird. When it saves you from a husk (that somehow sneaks up on you) and then is the first Geth ever to talk to you, none of you saw that as weird? A Geth aboard a Reaper at the EXACT time TIM sends you to the Reaper is perfectly reasonable?

It just seems like so many of you view it as yea that was cool, and the Cerberus scientists getting indoctrinated sucks for them. But Shepard is too strong for that, so I'm not gonna bother even keeping this in the back of my mind as I continue to play

The whole crew could see legion, including people who weren't on the derelict reaper, and people who weren't on the normandy; Legion wasn't a hallucination. Legion assists in the destruction of reapers, and reaper forces, so we know legion is not a reaper agent. The scientists spent weeks in the derelict reaper, Shepard spent mere hours. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Face of Darkness wrote...

I think I'm just saying IT antagonists seem to be defining indoctrination too sharply. The Cerberus scientists are just an example, Shepard doesn't need to become indoctrinated in that same fashion. He doesn't spend a lot of time with any one Reaper influence, but he does witness or have direct contact with nearly every single possible one; Saren, Benezia, the Thorian, Sovereign, the derelict Reaper, TIM, Harbinger, and endless Reaper forces

I don't even think Shepard is necessarily indoctrinated at any point. I think too many of you view it a little black and white when it is more of a struggle between two forces; the mental will of Shepard, and the machine configuration that the Reapers use to electrically interact with the neurons of the brain. While indoctrination seems like an invincible weapon, it's actually a two way street which allows a will strong enough to fight back against indoctrination and instead influence the Reapers.

This is what I see when the Catalyst says "my solution will no longer work." The entire conversation with the Catalyst is the first time the Reapers acknowledge you on an equal level, and allow you to decide the future. You're not actually at the Citadel, it is just a space which you and the Reapers can both interpret in similar fashion, giving you very straightforward options

It's because for indoctrination to work it needs sharp limitations or else it dissolves into a sloshy, contrived mess. With out limitations anything can be indoctrination, any thing can be an illusion, or fake, etc. Because of that there is no tension. That's the problem with IT, everything that is interpretted to be subtle symbloism, a dream, or some form of hallucination is a made of aspect of Indoctrination not established by the game but established by players.

[Face of Darkness]

The scientists didn't feel the influence of Saren, Benezia, the Thorian etc. And Shepard didn't get indoctrinated to the point of killing his friends.

Indoctrination is not a binary process.

[CynicalShep]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Face of Darkness wrote...

I think I'm just saying IT antagonists seem to be defining indoctrination too sharply. The Cerberus scientists are just an example, Shepard doesn't need to become indoctrinated in that same fashion. He doesn't spend a lot of time with any one Reaper influence, but he does witness or have direct contact with nearly every single possible one; Saren, Benezia, the Thorian, Sovereign, the derelict Reaper, TIM, Harbinger, and endless Reaper forces

I don't even think Shepard is necessarily indoctrinated at any point. I think too many of you view it a little black and white when it is more of a struggle between two forces; the mental will of Shepard, and the machine configuration that the Reapers use to electrically interact with the neurons of the brain. While indoctrination seems like an invincible weapon, it's actually a two way street which allows a will strong enough to fight back against indoctrination and instead influence the Reapers.

This is what I see when the Catalyst says "my solution will no longer work." The entire conversation with the Catalyst is the first time the Reapers acknowledge you on an equal level, and allow you to decide the future. You're not actually at the Citadel, it is just a space which you and the Reapers can both interpret in similar fashion, giving you very straightforward options

It's because for indoctrination to work it needs sharp limitations or else it dissolves into a sloshy, contrived mess. With out limitations anything can be indoctrination, any thing can be an illusion, or fake, etc. Because of that there is no tension. That's the problem with IT, everything that is interpretted to be subtle symbloism, a dream, or some form of hallucination is a made of aspect of Indoctrination not established by the game but established by players.

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

[Rotward]

Face of Darkness wrote...

I think I'm just saying IT antagonists seem to be defining indoctrination too sharply. The Cerberus scientists are just an example, Shepard doesn't need to become indoctrinated in that same fashion. He doesn't spend a lot of time with any one Reaper influence, but he does witness or have direct contact with nearly every single possible one; Saren, Benezia, the Thorian, Sovereign, the derelict Reaper, TIM, Harbinger, and endless Reaper forces

I don't even think Shepard is necessarily indoctrinated at any point. I think too many of you view it a little black and white when it is more of a struggle between two forces; the mental will of Shepard, and the machine configuration that the Reapers use to electrically interact with the neurons of the brain. While indoctrination seems like an invincible weapon, it's actually a two way street which allows a will strong enough to fight back against indoctrination and instead influence the Reapers.

This is what I see when the Catalyst says "my solution will no longer work." The entire conversation with the Catalyst is the first time the Reapers acknowledge you on an equal level, and allow you to decide the future. You're not actually at the Citadel, it is just a space which you and the Reapers can both interpret in similar fashion, giving you very straightforward options

Literally every statement you made in this post is inaccurate. Indoctrination is not an obscure concept. It's quite clear by the end of me3 what indoctrination is, how it works, and roughly the time it takes to become indoctrinated. Indoctrination does not go both ways, nor is there any evidence to support such a claim. The catalyst's solution is harvesting species, it doesn't work anymore because each successive generation is coming closer to defeating the reapers. You are on the citadel. 

Look, even the vanilla indoctrination theory is more logical than you, and it's so full of holes I call it the swiss cheese theory. 

[Face of Darkness]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

It's because for indoctrination to work it needs sharp limitations or else it dissolves into a sloshy, contrived mess. With out limitations anything can be indoctrination, any thing can be an illusion, or fake, etc. Because of that there is no tension. That's the problem with IT, everything that is interpretted to be subtle symbloism, a dream, or some form of hallucination is a made of aspect of Indoctrination not established by the game but established by players.

I don't understand why this has to be a problem; it allows everyone to have their own interpretation of what happened. Some people see what could have happened, how they could have been beat on a mental level against such a threat. Others think it's bull****, that they saw a scenario in which Shepard overcame everything and as such the ending doesn't make sense. Then theres everybody inbetween who can kind of see the possibilties, and are less sure what to think but probably unimpressed with the ending as well. Either way it's one of the first games ever to have created an extremely diverse fanbase opinion. What other game has ever made people conflict and discuss as much as this, even years after?

I don't even think theres going to be much of a reveal either in ME4. Seems very possible to be completely unrelated to Shepard. 

Btw I've read all the books and followed the comics as well

[AlanC9]

Well, yeah... sloshy contrived messes are only a problem for people who don't like sloshy contrived messes.

[CynicalShep]

Face of Darkness wrote...

I don't even think theres going to be much of a reveal either in ME4. Seems very possible to be completely unrelated to Shepard. 

Btw I've read all the books and followed the comics as well

I think they already kind of confirmed that

[Face of Darkness]

Rotward wrote...
 Literally every statement you made in this post is inaccurate. Indoctrination is not an obscure concept. It's quite clear by the end of me3 what indoctrination is, how it works, and roughly the time it takes to become indoctrinated. Indoctrination does not go both ways, nor is there any evidence to support such a claim. The catalyst's solution is harvesting species, it doesn't work anymore because each successive generation is coming closer to defeating the reapers. You are on the citadel. 

Look, even the vanilla indoctrination theory is more logical than you, and it's so full of holes I call it the swiss cheese theory. 

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are so certain that my idea is wrong, which is ridiculous. I'm not even saying it's necessarily what happened, but that there are many possibilities. Mine is just one of them, and like other possiblities, it can't be ruled out. This makes your stance (that I'm so incorrect to the point of condescesion) pretty extreme and quite fascinating. It's been years since the end of this game and yet you still feel strongly enough to belittle my proposed plausible scenario.

Well played Bioware.

Modifié par Face of Darkness, 08 décembre 2013 - 05:10 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

CynicalShep wrote...

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

As far as I understand it Indoctrination is a physical process. The waves that the Reapers emit compromise the Limbis system, once that's comprmoised the target is Indoctrinated, I think that's why the Prothean VIs can detect it. Once the target is Indoctrinated there are various degrees. Higher levels of Indoctrination cause the brain to turn to mush faster, making long term posession of the target useless but allow the Reaper to basically mind control the target. Lower levels are like truth syrum where the target is more susceptible to the Reapers commands.

I think the Reapers can raise or lower the frequencies of their own waves, or however the physical mechanism works to vary between long and slow indoctrination. I think how individuals like Saren break free is because the Reaper told him to open the Reley and fight any one who would stop him; however, Sovereign didn't say anything about Saren commiting suicide leaving that the only option for the poor Turian.

It's not all inclusive but I think most of the example adhere to this. Or at least that's the way I think of it in order to help me get through the plot. Fitting this for TIM and Cerberus though is a really big stretch but still slips in.

[Face of Darkness]

CynicalShep wrote...

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

How is it contrived? All they are asking you to do is picture a more subtle form of manipulation. It's not really different than thinking about how people in life influence each other

[ImaginaryMatter]

Face of Darkness wrote...

Rotward wrote...
 Literally every statement you made in this post is inaccurate. Indoctrination is not an obscure concept. It's quite clear by the end of me3 what indoctrination is, how it works, and roughly the time it takes to become indoctrinated. Indoctrination does not go both ways, nor is there any evidence to support such a claim. The catalyst's solution is harvesting species, it doesn't work anymore because each successive generation is coming closer to defeating the reapers. You are on the citadel. 

Look, even the vanilla indoctrination theory is more logical than you, and it's so full of holes I call it the swiss cheese theory. 

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are so certain that my idea is wrong, which is ridiculous. I'm not even saying it's necessarily what happened, but that there are many possibilities. Mine is just one of them, and like other possiblities, it can't be ruled out. This makes your stance (that I'm so incorrect to the point of condescesion) pretty extreme and quite fascinating. It's been years since the end of this game and yet you still feel strongly enough to belittle my proposed plausible scenario.

Well played Bioware.

Well by that logic it is very possible that Shepard is actually Alan Shepard in 1961 experiencing the effects of Indoctrination when the Reapers invaded Earth back during that time.

[AlanC9]

Face of Darkness wrote...

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are so certain that my idea is wrong, which is ridiculous. I'm not even saying it's necessarily what happened, but that there are many possibilities. Mine is just one of them, and like other possiblities, it can't be ruled out. This makes your stance (that I'm so incorrect to the point of condescesion) pretty extreme and quite fascinating. It's been years since the end of this game and yet you still feel strongly enough to belittle my proposed plausible scenario.

Well played Bioware.

So... you don't even believe in your own interpretation? 

[Face of Darkness]

AlanC9 wrote...

So... you don't even believe in your own interpretation? 

I think it's definitely more likely than most others, but I acknowledge others are also possible

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Well by that logic it is very possible that Shepard is actually Alan Shepard in 1961 experiencing the effects of Indoctrination when the Reapers invaded Earth back during that time.

This one not so much.

Modifié par Face of Darkness, 08 décembre 2013 - 05:22 .

[Face of Darkness]

AlanC9 wrote...

Weird things happen in ME. Legion was as reasonable as, say, discovering Tali's magic voice recording exactly when we needed it. You want the rest of the list?

Haha weird things happen in ME, but Shepard indoctrination is not one of them?

And are you seriously proposing that Legion's entire existence is a product of Indoctrination?

Or purposely put there by the Reapers

Modifié par Face of Darkness, 08 décembre 2013 - 05:31 .

[Deathsaurer]

Face of Darkness wrote...

Or purposely put there by the Reapers

That's something I think you have to consider on the first playthrough but metagaming I don't find it very plausable.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Face of Darkness wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Well by that logic it is very possible that Shepard is actually Alan Shepard in 1961 experiencing the effects of Indoctrination when the Reapers invaded Earth back during that time.

This one not so much.

It totally makes sense. The decision chamber looks like the interior of the Mercury capsule and the whole story takes place in a future that is possible due to man's step into space travel. But most importantly this explains Shepard's relevance in the narrative through out all 3 games. There's just too much symbolism and lairs of meaning to reject this theory as anything but the absolute truth.

[Face of Darkness]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

As far as I understand it Indoctrination is a physical process. The waves that the Reapers emit compromise the Limbis system, once that's comprmoised the target is Indoctrinated, I think that's why the Prothean VIs can detect it. Once the target is Indoctrinated there are various degrees. Higher levels of Indoctrination cause the brain to turn to mush faster, making long term posession of the target useless but allow the Reaper to basically mind control the target. Lower levels are like truth syrum where the target is more susceptible to the Reapers commands.

I think the Reapers can raise or lower the frequencies of their own waves, or however the physical mechanism works to vary between long and slow indoctrination. I think how individuals like Saren break free is because the Reaper told him to open the Reley and fight any one who would stop him; however, Sovereign didn't say anything about Saren commiting suicide leaving that the only option for the poor Turian.

It's not all inclusive but I think most of the example adhere to this. Or at least that's the way I think of it in order to help me get through the plot. Fitting this for TIM and Cerberus though is a really big stretch but still slips in.

Why is this a stretch

[Rotward]

CynicalShep wrote...

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

Nope, not really. It takes a few weeks to complete, it works on everyone that stays near reaper tech for that much time. Everyone who realized they were indoctrinated, given sufficient motivation, was able to break free. 

It's not all that sloshy, we just learn about indoctrination over time. Indoctrination's not perfect, but it's still better explained than biotics. 

Face of Darkness wrote...

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are so certain that my idea is wrong, which is ridiculous. I'm not even saying it's necessarily what happened, but that there are many possibilities. Mine is just one of them, and like other possiblities, it can't be ruled out. This makes your stance (that I'm so incorrect to the point of condescesion) pretty extreme and quite fascinating. It's been years since the end of this game and yet you still feel strongly enough to belittle my proposed plausible scenario.

Well played Bioware.

Ignoring facts and logic doesn't make your ideas possible. Mass effect isn't real, of course, so you're welcome to headcannon whatever. It's still the swiss cheese theory. 

Modifié par Rotward, 08 décembre 2013 - 05:57 .

[CynicalShep]

Face of Darkness wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

How is it contrived? All they are asking you to do is picture a more subtle form of manipulation. It's not really different than thinking about how people in life influence each other

Yes it is. It's very different. There is no fast way to turn someone into a braindead zombie in real life. There are many ways in which you can manipulate people, some being susceptible to one, others to another. It's a process that can be reversed and it has thousands of variations, unlike indoctrination.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 08 décembre 2013 - 05:58 .