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[CynicalShep]

Rotward wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

Nope, not really. It takes a few weeks to complete, it works on everyone that stays near reaper tech for that much time. Everyone who realized they were indoctrinated, given sufficient motivation, was able to break free. 

It's not all that sloshy, we just learn about indoctrination over time. Indoctrination's not perfect, but it's still better explained than biotics. 

Well, I doubt the events of ME1 only last a couple of weeks, and this is already less than it took to indoctrinate Saren (it's a fair bet that he is already indoctrinated at the beginning of the game). The salarians in Saren's facility were done a lot faster and looked worse for wear.

[CynicalShep]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

As far as I understand it Indoctrination is a physical process. The waves that the Reapers emit compromise the Limbis system, once that's comprmoised the target is Indoctrinated, I think that's why the Prothean VIs can detect it. Once the target is Indoctrinated there are various degrees. Higher levels of Indoctrination cause the brain to turn to mush faster, making long term posession of the target useless but allow the Reaper to basically mind control the target. Lower levels are like truth syrum where the target is more susceptible to the Reapers commands.

I think the Reapers can raise or lower the frequencies of their own waves, or however the physical mechanism works to vary between long and slow indoctrination. I think how individuals like Saren break free is because the Reaper told him to open the Reley and fight any one who would stop him; however, Sovereign didn't say anything about Saren commiting suicide leaving that the only option for the poor Turian.

It's not all inclusive but I think most of the example adhere to this. Or at least that's the way I think of it in order to help me get through the plot. Fitting this for TIM and Cerberus though is a really big stretch but still slips in.

This makes sense but it's still speculation. And when is a person to be considered "indoctrinated"? Is it when they start hearing voices? Is it when they're more susceptible to commands? Is it when they're following someone unquestionably? Or maybe it's when their brain is already mush?

[Face of Darkness]

Rotward wrote...

Ignoring facts and logic doesn't make your ideas possible. Mass effect isn't real, of course, so you're welcome to headcannon whatever. It's still the swiss cheese theory. 

I like Swiss cheese

Modifié par Face of Darkness, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[CynicalShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

It's only been known to work slowly with TIM. At least it seemed that way. In the comic, Desolus and Saren and TIM can't figure out why he's partially immune.. it doesn't get into detail though. TIM uses it as an excuse to investigate reaper tech even more, thinking he will always remain immune.

But he gets zapped by an artifact in only a brief second, just like Shepard. Trying to say Shepard's experience in Arrival doesn't mean anything doesn't make sense, when Walters wrote an indoctrination process with TIM that worked exactly the same way. Either Shepard's fully immune or he's partially indoctrinated too. Either way, it needs clarification (even if he's immune. Then why? That's interesting in itself).

So basically a little sloshy and contrived, yes?

[Face of Darkness]

StreetMagic wrote...

It's only been known to work slowly with TIM. At least it seemed that way. In the comic, Desolus and Saren and TIM can't figure out why he's partially immune.. it doesn't get into detail though. TIM uses it as an excuse to investigate reaper tech even more, thinking he will always remain immune.

But he gets zapped by an artifact in only a brief second, just like Shepard. Trying to say Shepard's experience in Arrival doesn't mean anything doesn't make sense, when Walters wrote an indoctrination process with TIM that worked exactly the same way. Either Shepard's fully immune or he's partially indoctrinated too. Either way, it needs clarification (even if he's immune. Then why? That's interesting in itself).

Hmm I don't think I ever played Arrival, I should. What exactly happened there with the artifiact?

Modifié par Face of Darkness, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:10 .

[Face of Darkness]

StreetMagic wrote...

I kind of missed some of this thread. I saw something about sloshy earlier, but not sure what you mean.

The comic's story isn't terrible though... imo.

In any case, TIM is fully aware of what's happening to him.. he knows they're in his head. He just has a massive ego. He operates under the assumption that any advanced technology could seem like "magic' at first, but he tells himself it's just that -- that it's just technology. So he convinces himself to not be wary of it. He thinks if he fears it, then he'll never tap into it's power, and control it himself. Ultimately, this leads to his downfall, as we all know. It is, in fact, "magic". For all practical purposes.

Yea this is how I see TIM, fascinating character. However I don't see it as "magic" so much as simply processes of electromagnetism. The brain is an electrical organ, and the Reapers emit some sort of electric field to influence each brain like a point charge.

[CynicalShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

It's only been known to work slowly with TIM. At least it seemed that way. In the comic, Desolus and Saren and TIM can't figure out why he's partially immune.. it doesn't get into detail though. TIM uses it as an excuse to investigate reaper tech even more, thinking he will always remain immune.

But he gets zapped by an artifact in only a brief second, just like Shepard. Trying to say Shepard's experience in Arrival doesn't mean anything doesn't make sense, when Walters wrote an indoctrination process with TIM that worked exactly the same way. Either Shepard's fully immune or he's partially indoctrinated too. Either way, it needs clarification (even if he's immune. Then why? That's interesting in itself).

So basically a little sloshy and contrived, yes?

I kind of missed some of this thread. I saw something about sloshy earlier, but not sure what you mean.

The comic's story isn't terrible though... imo.

In any case, TIM is fully aware of what's happening to him.. he knows they're in his head. He just has a massive ego. He operates under the assumption that any advanced technology could seem like "magic' at first, but he tells himself it's just that -- that it's just technology. So he convinces himself to not be wary of it. He thinks if he fears it, then he'll never tap into it's power, and control it himself. Ultimately, this leads to his downfall, as we all know. It is, in fact, "magic". For all practical purposes.

Oh, the comic is definitely better than the Sith Empire we got out of nowhere in ME3. I'm saying that the concept of indoctrination isn't very consistent

[Rotward]

CynicalShep wrote...

Rotward wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

Nope, not really. It takes a few weeks to complete, it works on everyone that stays near reaper tech for that much time. Everyone who realized they were indoctrinated, given sufficient motivation, was able to break free. 

It's not all that sloshy, we just learn about indoctrination over time. Indoctrination's not perfect, but it's still better explained than biotics. 

Well, I doubt the events of ME1 only last a couple of weeks, and this is already less than it took to indoctrinate Saren (it's a fair bet that he is already indoctrinated at the beginning of the game). The salarians in Saren's facility were done a lot faster and looked worse for wear.

You think me1 took a few weeks? Just traveling between systems can takes days, per Ashley conversations. She couldn't visit her sisters, when she was stationed one system over, because it would take too long.

Saren was working with sovereign for months, if not years, per conversations with wrex. Saren was hiring mercs to attack merchents, recruiting the geth, before eden prime. That's not SPECTRE activity, he was indoctrinated before me1 starts.

The salarians were on vermire for some time, they sent out a message when they needed backup. Some of them were captured more recently, and weren't indoctrinated yet. Others had been there for longer, and were indoctrinated partially. Enough to attack you, not enough to consider saren or sovereign an ally. They were rotating through scientists every few weeks, iirc. 

[CynicalShep]

Rotward wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Rotward wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I thought indoctrination is already a pretty sloshy, contrived mess. Indoctrinate fast, indoctrinate slow, works on these guys, not on those guys, some can break free from it for a short period of time, others can't, etc.

Nope, not really. It takes a few weeks to complete, it works on everyone that stays near reaper tech for that much time. Everyone who realized they were indoctrinated, given sufficient motivation, was able to break free. 

It's not all that sloshy, we just learn about indoctrination over time. Indoctrination's not perfect, but it's still better explained than biotics. 

Well, I doubt the events of ME1 only last a couple of weeks, and this is already less than it took to indoctrinate Saren (it's a fair bet that he is already indoctrinated at the beginning of the game). The salarians in Saren's facility were done a lot faster and looked worse for wear.

You think me1 took a few weeks? Just traveling between systems can takes days, per Ashley conversations. She couldn't visit her sisters, when she was stationed one system over, because it would take too long.

Saren was working with sovereign for months, if not years, per conversations with wrex. Saren was hiring mercs to attack merchents, recruiting the geth, before eden prime. That's not SPECTRE activity, he was indoctrinated before me1 starts.

The salarians were on vermire for some time, they sent out a message when they needed backup. Some of them were captured more recently, and weren't indoctrinated yet. Others had been there for longer, and were indoctrinated partially. Enough to attack you, not enough to consider saren or sovereign an ally. They were rotating through scientists every few weeks, iirc. 

I never argued that the events of ME took a few weeks. In fact, I am saying the exact opposite in the very post you answered to. It's the first thing I said ^

And those salarians have definitely had less time "under the influence" than Saren, yet some of them are already literally braindead. Which brings me back to a question I already asked on this thread: when is someone considered indoctrinated?

Modifié par CynicalShep, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:42 .

[CynicalShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Oh, the comic is definitely better than the Sith Empire we got out of nowhere in ME3. I'm saying that the concept of indoctrination isn't very consistent

Agreed (on all points). If that's what you mean by sloshy.

Well, yeah. Sloshy as in sloppy. I like the concept but it has no clear "modus operandi". 

[Steelcan]

obviously they aren't gonna deny it because we are all gonna find out how ME3 is actually just an alternate dimension that was brought about through time travel.

Paraphrased from the crazy section of the crazies on the IT forum

[Rotward]

CynicalShep wrote...

I never argued that the events of ME took a few weeks. In fact, I am saying the exact opposite in the very post you answered to. It's the first thing I said ^

And those salarians have definitely had less time "under the influence" than Saren, yet some of them are already literally braindead. Which brings me back to a question I already asked on this thread: when is someone considered indoctrinated?

Ah, I misread, my mistake.

Sovereign rendered those salarian braindead to help convince saren that he wasn't indoctrinated. Saren was convinced by those experiments that he couldn't be indoctrinated because he still had his mind, but that proved inaccurate. 

I'd say you're indoctrinated once you start following the reapers orders. I don't know, what else is there? 

[CynicalShep]

Rotward wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I never argued that the events of ME took a few weeks. In fact, I am saying the exact opposite in the very post you answered to. It's the first thing I said ^

And those salarians have definitely had less time "under the influence" than Saren, yet some of them are already literally braindead. Which brings me back to a question I already asked on this thread: when is someone considered indoctrinated?

Ah, I misread, my mistake.

Sovereign rendered those salarian braindead to help convince saren that he wasn't indoctrinated. Saren was convinced by those experiments that he couldn't be indoctrinated because he still had his mind, but that proved inaccurate. 

I'd say you're indoctrinated once you start following the reapers orders. I don't know, what else is there? 

But when do you start following them? When you're more susceptible to reaper commands or when you're already simply following orders? Or is it even before that, when you start getting the symptoms?

[AlanC9]

Steelcan wrote...

obviously they aren't gonna deny it because we are all gonna find out how ME3 is actually just an alternate dimension that was brought about through time travel.

Paraphrased from the crazy section of the crazies on the IT forum

Please tell me this is satire.

[Rotward]

CynicalShep wrote...

Rotward wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I never argued that the events of ME took a few weeks. In fact, I am saying the exact opposite in the very post you answered to. It's the first thing I said ^

And those salarians have definitely had less time "under the influence" than Saren, yet some of them are already literally braindead. Which brings me back to a question I already asked on this thread: when is someone considered indoctrinated?

Ah, I misread, my mistake.

Sovereign rendered those salarian braindead to help convince saren that he wasn't indoctrinated. Saren was convinced by those experiments that he couldn't be indoctrinated because he still had his mind, but that proved inaccurate. 

I'd say you're indoctrinated once you start following the reapers orders. I don't know, what else is there? 

But when do you start following them? When you're more susceptible to reaper commands or when you're already simply following orders? Or is it even before that, when you start getting the symptoms?

Based on the scientists on the derlilict reaper in me2, and the salarians in me1, I'd say when you're simply following orders.

The salarian wanted revenge, considered saren the enemy, but still followed the 'simple command' to attack Shepard. On the other hand, the scientists who were just starting to feel symptoms were still doing their jobs, and sending data to the illusive man.

In me3, if you didn't destroy the collector base, the alliance recoveres the human proto-reaper. The war assets page talks about having people work in shifts, and keeping them from staying near the reaper too long. That way, the alliance can use the proto-reaper for computations. I assume that initial symptoms aren't enough for indoctrination, else how would the alliance know what the cut-off should be for exposure?

Unfortunately this is in the realm of speculation, we never get to watch the process of indoctrination from start to finish. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

CynicalShep wrote...

Rotward wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I never argued that the events of ME took a few weeks. In fact, I am saying the exact opposite in the very post you answered to. It's the first thing I said ^

And those salarians have definitely had less time "under the influence" than Saren, yet some of them are already literally braindead. Which brings me back to a question I already asked on this thread: when is someone considered indoctrinated?

Ah, I misread, my mistake.

Sovereign rendered those salarian braindead to help convince saren that he wasn't indoctrinated. Saren was convinced by those experiments that he couldn't be indoctrinated because he still had his mind, but that proved inaccurate. 

I'd say you're indoctrinated once you start following the reapers orders. I don't know, what else is there? 

But when do you start following them? When you're more susceptible to reaper commands or when you're already simply following orders? Or is it even before that, when you start getting the symptoms?

Hmm, the Codex does state that Indoctrination does have an effect on the target's limbic system. This is speculative, but since indoctrination does have an effect on a physical part of the body, there probably is some physical sign that marks if an individual is indoctrinated, such as swelling, sores, etc. that can readily identify an indoctrinated individual if one knows where to look, such as the Prothean VIs. Again all this is speculative except for the limbic system thing.

Also according to the Codex victims who begin experiencing the symptoms are already indoctrinated. The different symptons denote different levels: headaches and the buzzing noices denote low level, this progresses into paranoia and hallucinations, and voices in the head is a much later stage. The codex is fairly clear on the physical symptoms but not the mental ones.

[ImaginaryMatter]

SR72 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
You're badly confused. No one denies that Bio could have written a game where Shepard became indoctrinated. They're denying that Bio did do it.

Don't expect it to jump out of the screen and say "Hey, Shepard, you're indoctrinated"! Not going to be thatobvious.

Shepard isn't experiencing any known signs of Indoctrination; no headaches, ringing in the ears, paranoia, hallucinations, or voices. The dreams experienced by those exposed to Object Rho are different than any of the dreams Shepard has had.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Umm... TIM's scene also shows him wielding some form of telepathy against Shepard and Anderson, given the sudden onset of headaches and ringing it is reasonable to assume they are symptoms of TIM's abilities given the coincidence. Also in all past instances of Indoctrination the hallucinations have been fleeting not sustained.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Hmm, hmm... explain, please, these symptoms of indoctrination that only you appear to be aware of.