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[ElSuperGecko]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Umm... TIM's scene also shows him wielding some form of telepathy against Shepard and Anderson, given the sudden onset of headaches and ringing it is reasonable to assume they are symptoms of TIM's abilities given the coincidence. Also in all past instances of Indoctrination the hallucinations have been fleeting not sustained.

"Some form of telepathy?"  Really?

Let's be perfectly clear here.  It shows the much-transformed Illusive Man using REAPER CONTROL on Anderson and Shepard.  It shows the Illusive Man using REAPER INDOCTRINATION.

"Look at the power THEY wield.  Look at what THEY can do!"

They.  Not I - THEY.

And as TIM exerts that power, we get the "ghostly shadows" distorting the screen.  We get the whispering voices in the background.  We get the headaches - that buzzing noise we're hearing throughout this scene, by the way? That's a slowed-down Reaper horn.

How is this possible?  We learn on Cronos Station that not only has Cerberus been implanting it's recruits with Reaper technlogy in a bid to turn civilians into super-soldiers, but that the Illusive Man himself has - just like Saren before him - has been extensively modifying himself with Reaper tech.  So back to the Indoctrination Codex entry:

"the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify it's signals..."

"Rapid indoctrination IS possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks..."

"A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends..."

"...trusting enemies,and viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

It couldn't be more obvious what the Illusive Man is doing or where his "mysterious power" actually comes from.  And then of course we have that sequence followed by the Catalyst conversation itself...

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 08 décembre 2013 - 03:18 .

[AlanC9]

Sure. TIM's supposed to be use a form of indoctrination there. So what?

SR72, your faith in Bio is...... touching. And I think you've provided an excellent answer to the thread topic. Anyone who sees a post like yours should be able to instantly understand why Bio will go out of their way to avoid letting you folks down.

Oddly enough, our interests are congruent to some extent. My preferred way to continue the series is canonized Destroy, as opposed to the awful KotOR 2-style all-endings-blended approach, or the even more awful reboot approach. This is compatible with some IT variants, so I really do hope that Bio keeps humoring you guys. They can canonize that the geth died at Rannoch and never mention EDI, so we don't need to worry about what the Crucible did.

(Canonized Control could be fun too, but I'm still hoping for a continuation with the Relays out of action. That's my version of wishful thinking.)

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 décembre 2013 - 04:40 .

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
Sure. TIM's supposed to be use a form of indoctrination there. So what?

So nothing, really.  Just making the point about where TIM's "telepathic powers" actually come from. 

Oddly enough, our interests are congruent to some extent. My preferred way to continue the series is canonized Destroy...

Quick question AlanC9 (although it may not be a quick answer - any particular reason why you have a preference for Destroy?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Face of Darkness wrote...

I'm amazed at people's confidence against indoctrination.

It's more like knowledge of the lore, which few people have, IT supporter or otherwise.

So when Shepard first sees Legion, a random Geth, who has randomly taken an N7 armor decoration, NONE of you IT haters thought hmmm.....thats weird. When it saves you from a husk (that somehow sneaks up on you) and then is the first Geth ever to talk to you, none of you saw that as weird? A Geth aboard a Reaper at the EXACT time TIM sends you to the Reaper is perfectly reasonable?

It was weird. But the explanation for everything weird is not "indoctrination!"

[Deathsaurer]

ITT: Why IT stopped being fun for me

[Eryri]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Sure. TIM's supposed to be use a form of indoctrination there. So what?

So nothing, really.  Just making the point about where TIM's "telepathic powers" actually come from. 

That's just given me a rather unpleasant moment of fridge horror. If I remember the codex correctly, there is no known cure for indoctrination, and once the process has begun, it can't be stopped or reversed. Rana's murder spree, years after being exposed to Sovereign, is proof of that. It also states that indoctrination leads to neurological decay, with rapid indoctrination being particularly damaging.

For TIM to force Shepard to shoot Anderson, he must have been using the intense, rapid kind. This means that even if high EMS Destroy plays out exactly as seen on screen, and Shepard survives to take a breath, his future is not exactly looking rosy.  Even though the Reapers are dead, the damage to his brain might already have been done. Unless the Alliance discovers a treatment to reverse the progressive damage done by indoctrination, Shepard might end up like those poor Salarians on Virmire, staring blankly at the walls of his padded cell.

I've rather bummed myself out there. 

Modifié par Eryri, 08 décembre 2013 - 09:02 .

[Deathsaurer]

Why would you try to bum yourself out like that?

[Eryri]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Why would you try to bum yourself out like that?

I didn't really want to. It just seemed to logically follow from the codex entries. I'll just headanon that Dr Chakwas, or the one from Leviathan, invents a cure in time.

[Deathsaurer]

It was what? a couple of minutes? I doubt it did more damage than a glass of ryncol or, you know, being dead.

[ElSuperGecko]

Eryri wrote...
For TIM to force Shepard to shoot Anderson, he must have been using the intense, rapid kind. This means that even if high EMS Destroy plays out exactly as seen on screen, and Shepard survives to take a breath, his future is not exactly looking rosy.  Even though the Reapers are dead, the damage to his brain might already have been done. Unless the Alliance discovers a treatment to reverse the progressive damage done by indoctrination, Shepard might end up like those poor Salarians on Virmire, staring blankly at the walls of his padded cell.

Don't panic too much - although indoctrination does cause both be progressive and irreversible neural decay, does it not do so whilst actually under the influence of the Reapers?  While Shepard clearly got a hard, sharp blast of Reaper brainfreeze from TIM, I got the impression that it would require constant Reaper influence at that level to burn a subject out.  Once TIM's taken out, that direct influence stops - and once the Reapers are taken out in Destroy, there would be no signal whatsoever.  One hopes, anyway.

Clutching?  Maybe.  But take Rana Thanoptis.  She clearly fell under Reaper influence during the events of ME1, but was perfectly fine up to the events of ME3, when direct Reaper proximity appeared to "trigger" her symptoms once more.

[Eryri]

Makes sense. Phew, I was a bit worried there for a minute, my own pessimistic tendencies were threatening to squeeze the last ray of hope out of the ending.

[ImaginaryMatter]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Umm... TIM's scene also shows him wielding some form of telepathy against Shepard and Anderson, given the sudden onset of headaches and ringing it is reasonable to assume they are symptoms of TIM's abilities given the coincidence. Also in all past instances of Indoctrination the hallucinations have been fleeting not sustained.

"Some form of telepathy?"  Really?

Let's be perfectly clear here.  It shows the much-transformed Illusive Man using REAPER CONTROL on Anderson and Shepard.  It shows the Illusive Man using REAPER INDOCTRINATION.

"Look at the power THEY wield.  Look at what THEY can do!"

They.  Not I - THEY.

And as TIM exerts that power, we get the "ghostly shadows" distorting the screen.  We get the whispering voices in the background.  We get the headaches - that buzzing noise we're hearing throughout this scene, by the way? That's a slowed-down Reaper horn.

How is this possible?  We learn on Cronos Station that not only has Cerberus been implanting it's recruits with Reaper technlogy in a bid to turn civilians into super-soldiers, but that the Illusive Man himself has - just like Saren before him - has been extensively modifying himself with Reaper tech.  So back to the Indoctrination Codex entry:

"the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify it's signals..."

"Rapid indoctrination IS possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks..."

"A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends..."

"...trusting enemies,and viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

It couldn't be more obvious what the Illusive Man is doing or where his "mysterious power" actually comes from.  And then of course we have that sequence followed by the Catalyst conversation itself...

Indoctrination isn't telepathy, it's a subtle form of manipulation, which only becomes a psuedo method of mind control after long periods of time after the target's brain turns to mush. TIM basically body jacks Shepard and Anderson, both of them are still in possession of their minds but not their limbs. Indoctrination has never been revealed to have this effect. It certainly has never been revealed to rapidly indoctrinate someone over the course of a few seconds; Shepard experiences the early symptoms and more advanced symptoms at the same time.

Is it possible for Indoctrination to have these never before seen effects? Sure, I guess. But the problem with that is how contrived it is; an even bigger problem is that it sets a precedent that the symptoms of Indoctrination can be made up to include whatever is convenitent at the time. TIM starts using telepathy? Well of course, mind powers are a symptom of Reaper indoctrination. Vivid dreams and fully detailed hallucinations? Those are indoctrination too. Plot holes? Hey, Indoctrination.

[Deathsaurer]

The Leviathans have actively controlled people, indoctrination is based on their ability.

[AlanC9]

SR72 wrote...

This whole "canon" thing makes it sound like people have to do whatever Bioware chooses as canon. With a game like this, you can decide whatever ending is best for you. Instead of Bioware telling you which ending to pick. I reject your reality and substitute my own. I reject Bioware's opinion and come up with my own ending theory, "correct choice" etc.

If ITers would only start with this move, instead of claiming to have a true interpretation, they wouldn't be nearly as disliked.

[ElSuperGecko]

Deathsaurer wrote...
The Leviathans have actively controlled people, indoctrination is based on their ability.

So has Harbinger.  ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.

Also, LOL Homeland.  A series that features elements of indoctrination tips the hat to a series that features elements of indoctrination?   We're through the looking glass here, people...

[Deathsaurer]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

So has Harbinger.  ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.

Eh that's not quite the same. The Collectors have implants he used as a medium. And none of the people in Arrival used biotics like the Collectors.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 09 décembre 2013 - 04:00 .

[Possessed Turian]

AlanC9 wrote...
Oddly enough, our interests are congruent to some extent. My preferred way to continue the series is canonized Destroy.

you don't have to cannonize the ending. your choice is reflected on how shepard wants to really defeat the reapers. Destroy means shepard truely wants to wipe out synthetics. control shepard wants to reinslave synthetic, putting them back to work under organic rule. synthisis is extremely freindly to synthetics, but none of these effect the events at the end which is different.

On topic. Well, I hate to put on my IT hat again. You guys talk about the Starchild being some new character introduced in the last 5 minutes of the game. Like a stranger in a way, people just trust whatever the stranger says. Much like how they believed that EDI and the Geth died. Mass relays were destroyed, and the entire galaxy is screwed. You believed this, because that's what he told you. You believed what the Reaper said without question (Shepard not questioning anything can be answered by replaying the Virmire mission in ME1. An Asari talks about indoctrination near the end of the level).

Like the codex says "The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system (controls what you see or hear) leaves the victim highly susceptible to its "suggestions". Suggestions like killing EDI/Geth, as well as the mass relays being destroyed, and people believed this. In a way, where you trust this kid more than you trust Admiral Hackett, who said that they were only building the Crucible to destroy the Reapers, and nothing else. 
This whole "canon" thing makes it sound like people have to do whatever Bioware chooses as canon. With a game like this, you can decide whatever ending is best for you. Instead of Bioware telling you which ending to pick. I reject your reality and substitute my own. I reject Bioware's opinion and come up with my own ending theory, "correct choice" etc. 

my belief is that the You've been laying on the Reaper sense ME2 on the IFF mission. The Reaper has been manipulating you. it  was the star child and it was learning about you. The Reaper told you the truth inorder to try and learn to manipulate you. using your love interest/best freind to try and survive, using them as a host. shepard is more sypathetic of the reaper if he chose synthisis. shepard is heavily against the Reaper if he choses destroy or control. of course always has the choice to go against or for the situation.

[Deathsaurer]

Possessed Turian wrote...

you don't have to cannonize the ending. your choice is reflected on how shepard wants to really defeat the reapers. Destroy means shepard truely wants to wipe out synthetics. control shepard wants to reinslave synthetic, putting them back to work under organic rule. synthisis is extremely freindly to synthetics, but none of these effect the events at the end which is different.

While I see where you're coming from with that I think it's a bit simplistic because there are plenty of reasons to pick any of them.

[Possessed Turian]

I have the hole concept lined out but if bioware wants it they need to talk to me. It really brings Mass Effect home to its Xenophobia roots.

[Possessed Turian]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Possessed Turian wrote...

you don't have to cannonize the ending. your choice is reflected on how shepard wants to really defeat the reapers. Destroy means shepard truely wants to wipe out synthetics. control shepard wants to reinslave synthetic, putting them back to work under organic rule. synthisis is extremely freindly to synthetics, but none of these effect the events at the end which is different.

While I see where you're coming from with that I think it's a bit simplistic because there are plenty of reasons to pick any of them.

its a subcountious decision, simple is the way that stuff works. your end choice was the factor not oh i like the geth but i had to chose destroy to live. 

Modifié par Possessed Turian, 10 décembre 2013 - 01:16 .

[wolfhowwl]

Wow it's like the Extended Cut never happened in here.

[Ryzaki]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Indoctrination isn't telepathy, it's a subtle form of manipulation, which only becomes a psuedo method of mind control after long periods of time after the target's brain turns to mush. TIM basically body jacks Shepard and Anderson, both of them are still in possession of their minds but not their limbs. Indoctrination has never been revealed to have this effect. It certainly has never been revealed to rapidly indoctrinate someone over the course of a few seconds; Shepard experiences the early symptoms and more advanced symptoms at the same time.

Is it possible for Indoctrination to have these never before seen effects? Sure, I guess. But the problem with that is how contrived it is; an even bigger problem is that it sets a precedent that the symptoms of Indoctrination can be made up to include whatever is convenitent at the time. TIM starts using telepathy? Well of course, mind powers are a symptom of Reaper indoctrination. Vivid dreams and fully detailed hallucinations? Those are indoctrination too. Plot holes? Hey, Indoctrination.

This. TIM pulled that ability out of his ass. No foreshadowing whatsoever. I hate that scene. ]

The worst part is they had the chance to give this foreshadowing in Sanctuary but instead TIM makes some bootleg version of a Reaper signal.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2013 - 02:40 .