739 réponses à ce sujet

[rapscallioness]

I hear ya, StreetMagic. I was disappointed none of the ME2 characters made it as full squaddies in ME3.

Hopefully in the future--now that BW seems to realize that players also really like the squaddies and NPC's, they'll be more thoughtful abt how they're used in game. It's not just abt. us and our PC, it's a total package, and the the friends of the PC play an important part.

[Rip504]

Bioware supports creative thinking.

[SwobyJ]

Rip504 wrote...

Bioware supports creative thinking.

I'd go even further and say Bioware supports creation in itself. A theme that the series will eventually make clear.

[Lunch Box1912]

SwobyJ wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Bioware supports creative thinking.

I'd go even further and say Bioware supports creation in itself. A theme that the series will eventually make clear.

Is everyone in this thread totally high or just delusional??

[AlanC9]

Not everybody.

[Slayer299]

mis read, ignore me please. 

Modifié par Slayer299, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:29 .

[Lunch Box1912]

▲▲ Just the fanboys?

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:29 .

[Slayer299]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

▲▲ Just the fanboys?

How am I an IT fanboy when I said I don't subsribe to it??

[Lunch Box1912]

Slayer299 wrote...

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

▲▲ Just the fanboys?

How am I an IT fanboy when I said I don't subsribe to it??

the ▲▲ are arrows for commenting on two posts up.  this would be down ▼

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:32 .

[Slayer299]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

▲▲ Just the fanboys?

How am I an IT fanboy when I said I don't subsribe to it??

the ▲▲ are arrows for commenting on two posts up.

I didn't know what 2 arrows up mean. To me it just meant the person above, which was why I replied so. 

[Lunch Box1912]

◄ ☼ ►  ◄ ☼ ►   we're watching you

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:38 .

[SwobyJ]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Bioware supports creative thinking.

I'd go even further and say Bioware supports creation in itself. A theme that the series will eventually make clear.

Is everyone in this thread totally high or just delusional??

Whoh, like I said something totally batty here?

Seriously? Saying that 'creation' is going to be an increasingly important theme, basically?

Most of ME1-3 is about creation. The entire Geth+Quarian arc is about it, and the relationship between the created and the creator. :happy:


(And the whole 'Bioware' part is that much of Dragon Age is also about creative energy that manifests in the Fade, a realm that also is becoming increasingly important to the plot of the series, and Jade Empire had its own stuff too. Bioware's devs and writers have always loved the concepts that arise from committing expression onto creation. Like, heck, since stories in Baldur's Gate.)

Modifié par SwobyJ, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:58 .

[Lunch Box1912]

I was more referring to the creative thinking comment, as to what is creative thinking without constructive criticism.

[SwobyJ]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

I was more referring to the creative thinking comment, as to what is creative thinking without constructive criticism.

lol ok

Ok fine, Bioware can surely have their heads up... ok I don't want to get banned. <3

[Lunch Box1912]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lunch Box1912 wrote...


Do take a peek at Martyr's poll. I'd say the 68,763 to 6329 gamers is a fair enough sample to deduce what the majority feels.  (75,092 total votes.)

The majority of people who cared enough to show up for the poll, anyway. Also note that it's a pre-EC poll, and it looks like these people wanted a happy ending. When I say that about ending haters people say I'm insulting them.

I think you grossly under estimate how many at that poll clicked the first choice for ending sucks rather than we want a brighter one. That’s why folks get upset.

[AlanC9]

So the poll doesn't mean what it says it means?

[SwobyJ]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Lunch Box1912 wrote...


Do take a peek at Martyr's poll. I'd say the 68,763 to 6329 gamers is a fair enough sample to deduce what the majority feels.  (75,092 total votes.)

The majority of people who cared enough to show up for the poll, anyway. Also note that it's a pre-EC poll, and it looks like these people wanted a happy ending. When I say that about ending haters people say I'm insulting them.

I think you grossly under estimate how many at that poll clicked the first choice for ending sucks rather than we want a brighter one. That’s why folks get upset.

I'd wager it going like:

Attentive Fans --> It didn't make sense! And it didn't. And it doesn't. From a certain POV . Heh.
General Fans --> Maybe "It didn't make sense!", but more "It sucked!" generally, no resolution, etc. Used "It doesn't make sense!" as more of a rational crutch to present their opinion.
General Gamers --> Wasn't happy enough to get a *certain type* of resolution

And imo Bioware just chose to calm down the bigger group while half-giving people what people wanted with future DLCs after EC.

All that was left were the outright 'bad writing' people who wouldn't let it go. And they don't need to. On its face, ME3 has horrible writing. I disagree when it comes down to it, but I can absolutely see and understand why people think this.

But for most people? Sorry, but I really do think it was that they felt like the game wasn't really ending and then were presented a few colors and a credits roll and were expecting a happy and resolved ending... not that they were looking for a more *objectively* good ending and one that made real sense.

Look at ME2. Despite complaints at the Human Reaper, its ending was otherwise widely praised. Why? Because it kept to:
-happy ending
-resolved ending

What did we get in ME2 though, along with happy and resolved?
-Blue...radiation pulse? Uh.. ok...
-Where exactly did the Normandy fly to and how can I write this off?
-They turn people to..goo.. and somehow that preserves them?
-Why a Terminator skull?
-Did my choices in ME1 really do anything at all in this story?
-Stopping this Reaper did what exactly?

It being the 'final' Mass Effect game (seriously, people still think it is and that nothing else is coming) made ME3's 'issues' even more amplified. It doesn't resolve things + it wasn't quite happy in any ending + it being the 'final' game = AHHHH DISASTERRR!

[AlanC9]

SwobyJ wrote...
Attentive Fans --> It didn't make sense! And it didn't. And it doesn't. From a certain POV . Heh.
General Fans --> Maybe "It didn't make sense!", but more "It sucked!" generally, no resolution, etc. Used "It doesn't make sense!" as more of a rational crutch to present their opinion.
General Gamers --> Wasn't happy enough to get a *certain type* of resolution

Don't forget:

Cynical Fans --> It didn't make sense, but that's nothing new for ME. Though I guess most of them hit the OK button in the poll.

[SwobyJ]

AlanC9 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
Attentive Fans --> It didn't make sense! And it didn't. And it doesn't. From a certain POV . Heh.
General Fans --> Maybe "It didn't make sense!", but more "It sucked!" generally, no resolution, etc. Used "It doesn't make sense!" as more of a rational crutch to present their opinion.
General Gamers --> Wasn't happy enough to get a *certain type* of resolution

Don't forget:

Cynical Fans --> It didn't make sense, but that's nothing new for ME. Though I guess most of them hit the OK button in the poll.

I barely count them because I'm still confused why they're around online forums about something they're so cynical about.

[Lunch Box1912]

I do remember a Bioware ME3 panel at either a Pax or Comic Con a few years ago basically say that the endings are what they are, they are not a dream. They also said the endings where done in a way that you could make whatever you wanted of your ending for you own Shepard that it was left open ended intentionally, which to me seems like a cop out of finishing the story. I think the aura of the Indoctrination Theory before this was the fact that the ending is a battle with indoctrination there is no doubt about that, which is why Bioware still doesn't fully denounce it. The debate as to how extensive the indoctrination was quite fascinating; is the entire ending all in your head, is all of ME3 in Shepards head, is it just the last ten minutes? The mental mind games being played throughout the game, the Illusive Man's failure to turn you in the final moments of the game (in which if you had a high enough paragon TIM would share Saren's suicide exit) the intervention of the supposed Catalyst, was this all happening in the physical sense or is it all in your head?


As far as other ending options I can't understand how people can pick control or synthesis after playing the first two games.
Things to think about: The image of the boy is chosen to confront Shepard because it or "the Reapers" are trying to convey themselves in a particular fashion, as a familiar form, a form that would come across as non-threatening (a small helpless little boy). Something Shepard can relate somewhat to and even have sympathy for (one he could not save) the whole scene screams please don't kill us to me. Also if you chose to blast star brat you found ending option four and you also confirmed the Catalyst is a reaper. This also reinforces that the Crucible has forced the catalyst to accept a new directive. If you chose nothing it continues on it's prior directive. 

Example: You are cornered in a room by your nemesis, they are holding a kill button in this room and your trying your best to convince them not to push that button. If you had the option for how you could appear to this nemesis are you going to appear as the enemy they hate, someone who at the very sight of is going to make them try to push that button? Or would you choose to appear to them as a familiar form, a form maybe they are sympathetic towards someone who maybe could talk them out of pushing that button.

Control = The Illusive Man's fate.

Synthesis = Saren's fate and a giant human reaper

Destroy = You win, you have defeated the reapers, unless you were indoctrinated and chose option 1 or 2.

SwobyJ wrote…

AlanC9 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
Attentive Fans --> It didn't make sense! And it didn't. And it doesn't. From a certain POV {smilie}. Heh.
General Fans --> Maybe "It didn't make sense!", but more "It sucked!" generally, no resolution, etc. Used "It doesn't make sense!" as more of a rational crutch to present their opinion.
General Gamers --> Wasn't happy enough to get a *certain type* of resolution

Don't forget:

Cynical Fans --> It didn't make sense, but that's nothing new for ME. Though I guess most of them hit the OK button in the poll.

I barely count them because I'm still confused why they're around online forums about something they're so cynical about.

These games are like reading books to people, it's more than a game it's about the story.
When something terrible happens to something you care about do you just abandon it/them and pretend they never existed or do you try to do something about it.

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 02 janvier 2014 - 09:12 .

[Excella Gionne]

Because it' was never intentional for the IT to exist. I do like the IT though, and I do believe in it, but whatever...nothing's cannon anyways....

[Lunch Box1912]

johnnythao89 wrote...

Because it' was never intentional for the IT to exist. I do like the IT though, and I do believe in it, but whatever...nothing's cannon anyways....

It exists to an extent just not to the level everyone was hoping Bioware would confirm it exist.

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 02 janvier 2014 - 09:14 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

Because it' was never intentional for the IT to exist. I do like the IT though, and I do believe in it, but whatever...nothing's cannon anyways....

It exists to an extent just not to the level everyone was hoping Bioware would confirm it exist.

What do you mean by this?

[SwobyJ]

I do remember a Bioware ME3 panel at either a Pax or Comic Con a few years ago basically say that the endings are what they are, they are not a dream.

I would like a real source for this.
For what I at least recall, they said that it was a valid interpretation. Something like that.

I see what you're getting at for Control/Synthesis. However, there is SOME stuff to guide players towards these choices, even if the overt and more direct narrative does scream "OMG DON'T DO ITTTT" (before Catalyst appears, haha).

~~~

Control - Be either pro-Synthetic mindset Paragon in ME2, or use-all-tools Renegade in ME2. Then be all-Paragon in ME2. Also helps to be Paragon in ME1. This doesn't in itself lead you to Control as a philosophy, sure, but it does put the player into the mindspace where they'll believe the Catalyst more about Control and they'll shrug off the dangers. Yes, I know people IRL who did this. My boyfriend, in fact, very well may have, but he remembered stuff I said about the Reapers so... yeah. He did choose to keep the Collector Base though.

Anyway, ME2 onward does prime the player towards the temptation of Control - either the 'leader/hero' emotional feeling (TIM guided Shepard to be a Leader when pre-ME1 he was simply a Soldier, and ME1 he was made to be an Agent - YOU choose what hat Shepard will either keep on or change to) where the player actually thinks "Yes, Shepard is unique, an anomly in all this. He can do it!", orr they just view technology as a tool and go for it.
ME1 for the most part, yeah, does NOT have this enouragement. Everything with this sort of tech is instead just seen as evil machinery. Not 'dangerous' or 'useful'. It's ME2's events that set up the ME3 placement of things

ME3 then ups the danger aspect, yet snaps us into a weird place when on Sanctuary we've learned just how close TIM is getting to manipulating and understanding Reaper technology. It's only because of the cost of such advancements + the supposed uselessness of pursuing them (compared to just, you know, killing husks) that Shepard seems to brush it off (at least as Paragon).
ANYway again, ME2 sows the seeds, and ME3 brings some of them, but not all of them, into fruition. This is all a side story that one could even brute Paragon through in ME2 then Renegade through in ME3 and they're never see most of it.

~~~

Synthesis - A special and new beast..

ME1 outright has the main antagonist preach on about it. Not a shining start. In fact, Shepard, even as Paragon, stands in direct opposition to Saren and the Reapers' plans, even while (even clearly at the time) not understanding just what they are. All Shepard knows is that the Reapers kill everyone on a schedule and that they have no problem with taking over your mind to ensure that that are not stopped about it. The actual plan, outside of that, is a mystery.

ME2 then explains what the effects of (an appearently imperfect) synthesis is on the at least physical plane (at least one writer explained that he did intend on uploading to the Reaper being I guess like the Matrix... food for thought).
By the end of ME2, we get that the Reapers were actually serious and not outright lying about that Organic + Synthetic fusion. However, we also see that their process of it is disgusting and evil. At the same time, like we're introduced to the robot stuff with ME1 (leading into what becomes Control), ME2 truly introduces us to the land of the Green Synthesis.

When it comes to being pro or anti synthesis in ME1-ME2, unlike anything Control or Synthetic-Mentality-ish, you have no choice. It is evil. Synthetics should be synthetic. Organics should be organic. Any attempt to put them together as one being is doomed to what Harbinger committed to the Prothians.

ME3 then offers a Synthesis-ISH storyline, but it ONLY TRULY comes if you played ME1 with Wrex and ME2 with several things. Do the full perfect Tuchanka run with Eve+Wrex+Mordin Sacrifice (though Paddok works fine too). Do the Rannoch Peace run.
On the other hand, sure, you can have some deaths on Shepard's conscience too - its just that the Green Peace outcomes are nearly essential to the full effect imo.
Whatever the case, you present your Shepard (to recall the Time Capsule Liara scene..) not as just a Soldier with his singular job, or a Leader with a singular purpose, but as a singular(ity) ascending being itself. Really... a messiah.

This happens to a Shepard who may be all about making 'peace where he could', or saving as many as possible, or making his enemy his friend. The one that focuses the least on revenge, and most on getting the best outcome for everyone.

The catch is that the Reapers are.. well... the REAPERS.

What would make even Shepard agree to an idea of what seems like idea peace with the Reapers? Even regardless of all he's seen before?

And that is indoctrination. Saren saw things ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. The two biggest (imo) differences were:
-Saren had VERY LITTLE HOPE. He started with none (he didn't give a damn about anyone), and only got a bit by the end (he came to believe that some would be spared by the Reapers). Shepard instead can have a ton of hope, and embody that hope in all he does.
-Saren was fully implanted to come to nearly automatically agree with the Reapers, while Shepard, even in the most speculative theories, was only implanted with a small portion of Reaper (or Geth, or otherwise) tech in the Laz project, and then perhaps was exposed to some form of indoctrination over several occurances, while keeping his free will enough to make actual choices

The thing is, we don't know if Saren is right or wrong. Truly. I know, I know, Indoc. But if the galaxy is an experiment, and it keeps 'failing', and the Reapers are truly trying a perfect Synthesis without creating just more Reapers... and they are so Order focused that they're more about imposing their ideas than giving one the freedom to choose to agree with them... do you see what I'm getting at?

The funny thing about Synthesis is that it arrives to the story like many theorize the technological singularity would IRL - with sudden arrival and an expectation that you'll follow along with it or else be swept aside. It cares little for your wish for freedom, or even your wish to protect others; it only seems to offer perfection and evolution and new life, solutions for specific problems, and then the chips will fall when it comes to everything else.

Why do people pick Synthesis? In a way, because they no longer give a damn about the Red and Blue concepts, and maybe even been worn down by them (see: the fights against Cerberus and even Geth), and instead see New as Good. And maybe it is, in some ways, if you take the plot revelations through ME2-ME3-Leviathan into a sort of context.

Next post upcoming.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 02 janvier 2014 - 09:36 .

[SwobyJ]

PART 2

Considering the strange nature of the colored waves (far and beyond even the blue radiation pulses in ME2, though on that note those are interesting as well..), and the bizarreness of the ME3's Synthesis ending, I take anything Crucible related to be suspect.

We see TIM and accuse him of wanting to 'grow his own Reaper' in ME3 (sarcastically? well, we consider so at the time).

We know that the Reapers keep creating more of themselves.

We don't know the true origins of the Crucible plans, or at least who first tried to make it.

The Crucible docks into the Citadel, which was the fortress from which it seemed all Reaper invasions spread out from (until it was stopped by Prothian scientists in the last cycle).

The Citadel closes entirely, and holds cities worth of space and facilities.

I.T. only saw the ending as fake and an indoctrination dream while Shepard is on Earth. At least, that seems to be the main proposal of the theory. Some versions have it still happening on the Citadel, I guess. But I think its that its all in Shepard's head while being indoctrinated.

What if that's not the case, but instead we're experiencing the gradual changes in Shepard's *conscious* mind as he becomes progressively indoctrinated? I mean, throughout the series? From the *start*? From the very first Paragon/Renegade choices we make (right after the first Reaper screech of Sovereign) on Eden Prime?

What if what we're seeing is progressively virtual, while Shepard is indeed running around the galaxy in *some* way, and we didn't even know it?

Citadel DLC had a mention of Zakera Ward being almost completely destroyed by Sovereign's attack? WAIT WHAT? Either that mention is lying, or the writer for it completely forgot about a significant hub of ME2 (Bailey in ME2 claimed it as mostly superficial damage!!! WTF?).

Eternity.
Afterlife.
Purgatory.
Earth.

You know what I think we saw at the ending of ME3 without visually seeing it? A Reaper being created. And not just any Reaper, but the Reaper to beat all Reapers. The true perfection that they were all seeking and finally obtained, regardless of our decision about which direction it'll go (morally).

Synthesis (EC) - Virtual existence, we transcended (the monologue by EDI is fantastic)
Control - It's in a Reaper, we saved and protected all
Destroy - We are victorious over the Reapers
====== ????

Canon will be Shepard's body on Earth, and something will happen to it, and he'll become something else. (Though personally I kinda hope they scrap that, even if I'm right about it, and we'll instead get multiple species selection). Then a SuperReaper is made, the Reapers' connection to one another is lost (Harbinger may hate that) and victory happens to at least some degree, with aspects of it all hinted in both the original and the Extended Cut endings. Our choices just customize the nature of the victory, which will not be witnessed yet because Shepard has to go away first. Maybe rise like the phoenix, but he'll never be the same person ever again.

Headcanon? Well hell yeah it is, at least for now. Maybe forever .

But its where I currently stand. Of course, in most of my posts, I don't just act like this kind of interpretation is real. In fact, in many of them, I take a literalist mindset. However, in my more heart of hearts, I think along the lines of what I typed above.

Paragon rises to the virtual Reaper realm and endeavors to protect and sustain the most possible, without joining the Reapers themselves. (A Reaper guided by 'Shepard' would do a ton of damage and more clearly protect a fighting army)
Renegade rejects the Reaper realm as much as possible, but is also strengthened by existing in it and eventually, as no one has ever done before, shooting through it and surviving... in a way. (Shepard would be weakened and maybe dying or something else, but his presence would embolden everyone to fight as we know they can with Shepard around )
Synthesis is a new Transcendant position that, well, is truly unknown. I have no idea what it'd do, honestly. There might be a clue in how it's narrated by EDI (cyberwarfare = super attack, symbolically?), but I can't tell.
Refuse is leaving the galaxy to fight without any form of boost. No Shepard, no ReaperShep, no ??Reaper, no whatever, no nothing. The lesson being that you have to meet the Reapers if not halfway, but at least slightly. Even the Germans were pushed to surrender, to take the war example (though not the best one).
At the same time, maybe it'd do something. Whatever. It's just an idea.

All I'll end this with is that the released note page of Mac Walters had the Matrix clearly put on it and there might be a damn good reason why.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 02 janvier 2014 - 10:03 .