739 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...

Because it' was never intentional for the IT to exist. I do like the IT though, and I do believe in it, but whatever...nothing's cannon anyways....

It exists to an extent just not to the level everyone was hoping Bioware would confirm it exist.

The way that the story is written and even with the most custom dialogue..

You can play ME3, Action Mode, New File, Soldier (or whatever), Default ShepLoo... and it's a totally different story imo. Compared to what I think is a more myseriously toned or heavy feeling trilogy run.

-Pick all Renegade interrupts then and its a purely War Against Machines game. Ignore the weirdness of the ending and shoot the tube and move on. Many did this.

-Pick all Paragon interrupts and feel the feels of so many (SO many) being dead (remember, default file...), and so many dying during ME3. This is what the writers wrote these dream scenes for...
Feel the need to save everyone. Go for Control, or if you did everything you could in a default file (+ maybe MP), pick Synthesis.

-Orr....... you could... not do any interrupts. Play it ALL like watching a movie, with NO interruption in ANY of the flow. Let it all play out...
You'd be amazed how well it fits with Synthesis, as long as you make sure to do all sidequests and still metagame the best result you can make from it. Just walk into the beam... it is your destiny, truly.

Anyway, Default Action Mode stories (for new players) really more starkly illustrate the choices and what they mean for Shepards. With our imports, we are armed with more INFORMATION but we also have more baggage and our own preconceptions of story. We may need to drop those in order to understand the actual narrative happening. Or nevermind, because I think it's all a virtual universe by the end. LOL.



EDIT: Anyway, what I'm saying is that you can PRETTY EASILY play your own Shepard's story as if Indoc isn't playing a role at all. You can wave away even 'TIM's' weird powers at the end. You can completely ignore anything like this (and many players did), and just make your MORAL choice at the end.

You don't NEED all the answers, all the information, all the lore, all the explanations. On that, I seem to agree with Bioware people.

But at the same time, information can POTENTIALLY help you out. Provide context. Provide insight, both into the protagonist, and into even the antagonists, and even the larger POV beyond either of them.

We don't even know the future of the series. It could go in very surprising ways. What we do know is what we've been presented so far, which seems to be enough to make informed decisions. And this doesn't require an indoctrination dream, just as Dragon Age decisions don't require you to know the entire secret history of Thedas and the Fade etc etc blah blah.

If Shepard is under indoctrination, in the narrative, it barely matters. If he's under indoc, it's far more likely to be of a very balanced kind that more opens Shepard up to options, than shuts them down for him. That even empowers him to defeat the Reapers, instead of falling utterly to them. He is Shepard, and like that damn claw game, he's gonna win SOMETHING. Or like the Vorcha hustler game, he's gonna lose something. Or both. Depends on point of view

This is the company that even has us working with Darkspawn once in a while. And the story still continues. And the franchises still continue. We'll be OK. Maybe Shepard won't, but he did his best.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 02 janvier 2014 - 10:17 .

[SwobyJ]

EXACTLY alleyd.

The question is, do we accept the Reapers for attempting to establish this seemingly positive plan by force? Regardless of how large and cosmic their view is, and how brainwashing is really NBD to them?

Networking (both social-reallife and technological-scifi) can increase your intelligence and understanding. Yet it can also decrease your thoughtfulness, wisdom, and empathy.

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

You can still enable cooperation without Synthesis. It's just selective in who you cooperate with. Just because you don't cooperate with Reapers doesn't mean you're against cooperation in principle. Humans, Krogan, Turian, Quarian, etc.. all have an interesting future ahead of them, even in Destroy endings. It's not like they're necessarily going to be at each other's throats. Plus, you learn more about cooperation by actually participating in it and making "real time" efforts at making it work. Rather than being coerced to or programmed by DNA. In order to have friends, you got to work at it.

*highfive*

The Reapers have a lot to learn.

If they even deserve it.


*/insertCatalystshrugging*

[Lunch Box1912]

SwobyJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

You can still enable cooperation without Synthesis. It's just selective in who you cooperate with. Just because you don't cooperate with Reapers doesn't mean you're against cooperation in principle. Humans, Krogan, Turian, Quarian, etc.. all have an interesting future ahead of them, even in Destroy endings. It's not like they're necessarily going to be at each other's throats. Plus, you learn more about cooperation by actually participating in it and making "real time" efforts at making it work. Rather than being coerced to or programmed by DNA. In order to have friends, you got to work at it.

*highfive*

The Reapers have a lot to learn.

If they even deserve it.


*/insertCatalystshrugging*

 

Are your fingertips hurting yet SwobyJ? lol

If I have the fate of the galaxy in my hands I'm going to take the option that I know will definitely destroy my enemy. There is too much uncertainty with control or synthesis, that's putting a lot of trust in something that was trying to kill me a minute ago. No matter what your character is paragon, neutral or renegade any way you look at it, in those two options you must trust what the catalyst (a Reaper) is telling you.

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 02 janvier 2014 - 12:57 .

[Seival]

Pantanplan wrote...

Why does Bioware refuse to deny the Indoctrination Theory?

And why BioWare refuse to deny any other fan-fiction out there? Happy ending mod for example, did BioWare come to say something like "Nonsense! Stop discussing this!"? No, they didn't... Observe fan-fiction section of the forums. Did BioWare ever interfere with any fan-fic thread? No, never.

You still want to discuss the IT, I believe, and the main purpose of the thread was to try and create another IT thread in the story section (groups will be removed soon, after all). And again you made the same mistake as other vocal ITers before. You forgot that fan-fictions should be discussed in fan-fic section.

Come here, Pantanplan: http://social.biowar...egory/368/index
Or here: http://social.biowar...tegory/13/index

Create a thread about your beloved IT in one of these sections, and I'm sure noone will stop you from discussing it... Unless it will become a 2000-pages-long-spam-flood-flame-troll-nonsense-thread again.

Modifié par Seival, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:03 .

[Kurremurre]

Seival wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

Why does Bioware refuse to deny the Indoctrination Theory?

And why BioWare refuse to deny any other fan-fiction out there? Happy ending mod for example, did BioWare come to say something like "Nonsense! Stop discussing this!"? No, they didn't... Observe fan-fiction section of the forums. Did BioWare ever interfere with any fan-fic thread? No, never.

You still want to discuss the IT, I believe, and the main purpose of the thread was to try and create another IT thread in the story section (groups will be removed soon, after all). And again you made the same mistake as other vocal ITers before. You forgot that fan-fictions should be discussed in fan-fic section.

Come here, Pantanplan: http://social.biowar...egory/368/index
Or here: http://social.biowar...tegory/13/index

Create a thread about your beloved IT in one of these sections, and I'm sure noone will stop you from discussing it... Unless it will become a 2000-pages-long-spam-flood-flame-troll-nonsense-thread again.

Isn't that different, though? Fanfiction is something everyone knows isn't canon, but an independent story that includes characters of another fictional work. Indoctrination Theory, on the other hand, is something its proponents regard as potentially canon.

And hey, didn't you write similar "fanfiction" about the Normandy crash scene and whatever else in this very forum yourself? Can you not feel how your high horse tramples you?

[Seival]

Kurremurre wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

Why does Bioware refuse to deny the Indoctrination Theory?

And why BioWare refuse to deny any other fan-fiction out there? Happy ending mod for example, did BioWare come to say something like "Nonsense! Stop discussing this!"? No, they didn't... Observe fan-fiction section of the forums. Did BioWare ever interfere with any fan-fic thread? No, never.

You still want to discuss the IT, I believe, and the main purpose of the thread was to try and create another IT thread in the story section (groups will be removed soon, after all). And again you made the same mistake as other vocal ITers before. You forgot that fan-fictions should be discussed in fan-fic section.

Come here, Pantanplan: http://social.biowar...egory/368/index
Or here: http://social.biowar...tegory/13/index

Create a thread about your beloved IT in one of these sections, and I'm sure noone will stop you from discussing it... Unless it will become a 2000-pages-long-spam-flood-flame-troll-nonsense-thread again.

Isn't that different, though? Fanfiction is something everyone knows isn't canon, but an independent story that includes characters of another fictional work. Indoctrination Theory, on the other hand, is something its proponents regard as potentially canon.

And hey, didn't you write similar "fanfiction" about the Normandy crash scene and whatever else in this very forum yourself? Can you not feel how your high horse tramples you?

Everyone who played the game know the official story, and IT has nothing to do with it. The attempts to explain the ending before EC was released were understandable. Nomandy crash scene thread was started before EC, and stopped just after EC came out. The same happened with IT. The difference is that I stopped myself, while ITers were forced to do so, because they turned their fan-fic in some kind of trolling cult and refused to stop the nonsense themselves.

Modifié par Seival, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:22 .

[Seival]

StreetMagic wrote...

lol.. "trolling cult"..

Is it really that bad?

You mean was it really that bad, I suppose. Yes, it was. Especially after some particular ITers started to create threads about how they've started to see visions about BioWare implementing IT in DLC or NME.

Modifié par Seival, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:30 .

[Kurremurre]

Seival wrote...

Everyone who played the game know the official story, and IT has nothing to do with it. The attempts to explain the ending before EC was released were understandable. Nomandy crash scene thread was started before EC, and stopped just after EC came out. The same happened with IT. The difference is that I stopped myself, while ITers were forced to do so, because they turned their fan-fic in some kind of trolling cult and refused to stop the nonsense themselves.

Fair enough, but the point still stands that it makes no sense to talk in the fanfiction section when you're discussing a given theory under the assumption that it might be true - regardless of how ludicrous the theory may be.

[Seival]

Kurremurre wrote...

Seival wrote...

Everyone who played the game know the official story, and IT has nothing to do with it. The attempts to explain the ending before EC was released were understandable. Nomandy crash scene thread was started before EC, and stopped just after EC came out. The same happened with IT. The difference is that I stopped myself, while ITers were forced to do so, because they turned their fan-fic in some kind of trolling cult and refused to stop the nonsense themselves.

Fair enough, but the point still stands that it makes no sense to talk in the fanfiction section when you're discussing a given theory under the assumption that it might be true - regardless of how ludicrous the theory may be.

Fans of happy ending mod also assume MEHEM to be their "official" ending. But they learned to use fan-fic section for their assumptions eventually. ITers should learn that too. It doesn't matter they believe that "IT is better ending". The official story is different. And fan-fics should be discussed in the corresponding section.

[Seival]

StreetMagic wrote...

The official story is so vague that almost everything might as well be fan fiction. It's pretty much encouraged even. "Speculations for everyone".

Good. Fan-fic section will serve its purpose well, I believe

[Kurremurre]

Seival wrote...

Fans of happy ending mod also assume MEHEM to be their "official" ending. But they learned to use fan-fic section for their assumptions eventually. ITers should learn that too. It doesn't matter they believe that "IT is better ending". The official story is different. And fan-fics should be discussed in the corresponding section.

I admit I've been out of the loop for quite a while, but considering that MEHEM is a mod - thus patently non-canon - it doesn't seem to compare. Don't IT supporters simply interpret what is already there to begin with in order to reach a conclusion as to the true nature of the ending? That sounds like a legitimate theory (even if it is untenable), not fanfiction.

[Seival]

Kurremurre wrote...

Seival wrote...

Fans of happy ending mod also assume MEHEM to be their "official" ending. But they learned to use fan-fic section for their assumptions eventually. ITers should learn that too. It doesn't matter they believe that "IT is better ending". The official story is different. And fan-fics should be discussed in the corresponding section.

I admit I've been out of the loop for quite a while, but considering that MEHEM is a mod - thus patently non-canon - it doesn't seem to compare. Don't IT supporters simply interpret what is already there to begin with in order to reach a conclusion as to the true nature of the ending? That sounds like a legitimate theory (even if it is untenable), not fanfiction.

Every story-related content created or modified by fans (no matter if it corresponds to the official story, or it's just a theory regarding the story, or an addition to the story) is a fan-fiction or fan-art, and should be discussed in fan-fiction or fan-art forums. That's very logical, I believe... Everything created by devs is official, and so shouldn't be discussed in fan-fiction or fan-art forums. Also very logical.

IT is a fan-created text content about modifying the official story with some very questionable things. And this is just as simple fact.

[Kurremurre]

Seival wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...

Seival wrote...

Fans of happy ending mod also assume MEHEM to be their "official" ending. But they learned to use fan-fic section for their assumptions eventually. ITers should learn that too. It doesn't matter they believe that "IT is better ending". The official story is different. And fan-fics should be discussed in the corresponding section.

I admit I've been out of the loop for quite a while, but considering that MEHEM is a mod - thus patently non-canon - it doesn't seem to compare. Don't IT supporters simply interpret what is already there to begin with in order to reach a conclusion as to the true nature of the ending? That sounds like a legitimate theory (even if it is untenable), not fanfiction.

Every story-related content created or modified by fans (no matter if it corresponds to the official story, or it's just a theory regarding the story, or an addition to the story) is a fan-fiction or fan-art, and should be discussed in fan-fiction or fan-art forums. That's very logical, I believe... Everything created by devs is official, and so shouldn't be discussed in fan-fiction or fan-art forums. Also very logical.

IT is a fan-created text content about modifying the official story with some very questionable things. And this is just as simple fact.

Again, I haven't been in the loop for over a year, but last I checked, IT didn't modify or add anything at all, but merely interpreted already existing content as psychological phenomena.

Either way, theories regarding stories are not fanfiction. If they were, then I don't see how your Normandy crash theory was anything but fanfiction. But then, I hope you realise that literary interpretation is an actual academic concept, which would hardly be considered fanfiction by anyone. The IT, as I know it, is exactly that: interpretation. An attempt at understanding the story at a deeper level.

Lastly, I never said anything about official statements having any place in the fanfiction forum.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

If I have the fate of the galaxy in my hands I'm going to take the option that I know will definitely destroy my enemy. There is too much uncertainty with control or synthesis, that's putting a lot of trust in something that was trying to kill me a minute ago. No matter what your character is paragon, neutral or renegade any way you look at it, in those two options you must trust what the catalyst (a Reaper) is telling you.

If you can't trust the Catalyst for the Control and Synthesis options how can you trust its word that shooting a fuel line will activate the Crucible, instead of making it inoperable or, at worst, blowing the entire thing up?

[ElSuperGecko]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
If you can't trust the Catalyst for the Control and Synthesis options how can you trust its word that shooting a fuel line will activate the Crucible, instead of making it inoperable or, at worst, blowing the entire thing up?

Who says that what Shepard shoots is a fuel line?  Shepard is (supposedly/allegedly/actually) on a section of the Citadel in the Catalyst scene, not the Crucible, and it's not explained what it is he/she shoots to trigger the Destroy ending.

I'm not saying that it isn't a fuel line, of course.  But it could also be a device that is actively preventing the Crucible from firing (a safety mechanism of sorts).  Or it could house the Starbrat's central AI core.

[AlanC9]

The Catalyst's AI core? Heh. It'd be funny if all Destroy did was turn the Reapers loose from the Catalyst's plan. After that, of course, no more Mr. Nice Guy from them; they'd proceed to conquer the galaxy and rule it for good. There's no sensible reason to let organics ever have have mass effect technology or interstellar travel.

But you didn't really answer ImaginaryMatter's question. How do you know that Destroy is Destroy? How is it more trustworthy than the other options?

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 janvier 2014 - 09:51 .

[SwobyJ]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

You can still enable cooperation without Synthesis. It's just selective in who you cooperate with. Just because you don't cooperate with Reapers doesn't mean you're against cooperation in principle. Humans, Krogan, Turian, Quarian, etc.. all have an interesting future ahead of them, even in Destroy endings. It's not like they're necessarily going to be at each other's throats. Plus, you learn more about cooperation by actually participating in it and making "real time" efforts at making it work. Rather than being coerced to or programmed by DNA. In order to have friends, you got to work at it.

*highfive*

The Reapers have a lot to learn.

If they even deserve it.


*/insertCatalystshrugging*

 

Are your fingertips hurting yet SwobyJ? lol

If I have the fate of the galaxy in my hands I'm going to take the option that I know will definitely destroy my enemy. There is too much uncertainty with control or synthesis, that's putting a lot of trust in something that was trying to kill me a minute ago. No matter what your character is paragon, neutral or renegade any way you look at it, in those two options you must trust what the catalyst (a Reaper) is telling you.

Hai back.

I think of it this way:

-The Rachni Queen was outright honest with you! And they at least aim to be peaceful. If you go after them, its more for their danger as a tool, than their identity as monsters or something.
-The Krogan generally don't care what you think, but they also hold great promise that was squandered by their culture and forced uplifting. They have their dangers, but if treated properly, it seems they'll be alright and we should trust at least certain ones.
-The Geth can lie, and in fact Legion keeps several important pieces of information away from you intentionally. They also outright embrace the Reapers whenever they actually decide to (instead of seeing them as means to an end like the krogan of ME1). The Geth are the most dangerous, but even *they* hold the possibility of redemption and peace with the galaxy.

-The Reapers? Everything about everything they're doing screams evil to me. Not because they don't really know better, or because they're outright lying to you. No.. they're 'ends justify the means' on overdrive, and it SEEMS they want Shepard to be that as well. Because of Shepard's will (imo), there may always be some level of resistance to this, but that doesn't mean that Synthesis or Control are the best options. The Reapers are specific entities that don't just take over planets, or bombard them with asteroids and armies, or turned against their creators.... the Reapers systematically genocided billions (or more) people with the excuse of uploading at least some part of them into a new Reaper.
Ultimately, it shouldn't matter how good or bad the existence in a Reaper is, or how advanced their tech is, or even the problem they're seemingly trying to solve. There IS a line, and that line is crossed, more personally for Shepard, with Earth.
If you (general audience) choose Control or Synthesis, I only hope that its because of the more general moral standpoint and that's it. If you do it for the Reapers' sake, you've been indoctrinated in SOME form (even in the literal way, I mean). If you do it for Geth/EDI's sake only, you've forgotten what they're supposed to be fighting for.
Is that uncomfortable? Honestly, that's on you.

*I* was uncomfortable with losing EDI. Legion was already gone so okkayyyy, but I love EDI, I believe in the potential of AI, and the only thing I don't like about her was her choice of sexbot body heh. I try to keep alive as many characters as possible. Synthesis was there, so I took it. It's alright. We make our choice and then can make another choice to reload and try a different one.

How many truly regret choosing to Save the Collector Base and then realizing that TIM used that tech for vagueish antagonistic ends in ME3? Why should you? You made your decision, and it represented your Shepard at the time, and you can leave it there or reload and make a different choice.

So that's how I see the choices. The Synthesis one is outright falling for the Reapers. And is that so bad? In some ways, it might be. In some ways, it definitely is. But in others, it represents the moral standpoint of wanting peace and life above war or control. That shouldn't be in itself shameful, and it forms a deeper RP imo.

~~~

I would not mind some sort of mindtwist happening and for the Reapers, in some form at least, stil being out there and having the possibility of semi-redemption with them assisting against the even bigger (at least in scale) threat. If DA can seemingly do it with Darkspawn, Mass Effect can do it with at least individual Reapers.

[SwobyJ]

Seival wrote...

Pantanplan wrote...

Why does Bioware refuse to deny the Indoctrination Theory?

And why BioWare refuse to deny any other fan-fiction out there? Happy ending mod for example, did BioWare come to say something like "Nonsense! Stop discussing this!"? No, they didn't... Observe fan-fiction section of the forums. Did BioWare ever interfere with any fan-fic thread? No, never.

You still want to discuss the IT, I believe, and the main purpose of the thread was to try and create another IT thread in the story section (groups will be removed soon, after all). And again you made the same mistake as other vocal ITers before. You forgot that fan-fictions should be discussed in fan-fic section.

Come here, Pantanplan: http://social.biowar...egory/368/index
Or here: http://social.biowar...tegory/13/index

Create a thread about your beloved IT in one of these sections, and I'm sure noone will stop you from discussing it... Unless it will become a 2000-pages-long-spam-flood-flame-troll-nonsense-thread again.

IT is not fanfiction. That's a ridiculous assertion. IT will be fanfiction to Bioware once they call it fanfiction and not a 'valid interpretation'. Fiction = Fiction.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 02 janvier 2014 - 09:55 .