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Why does Bioware refuse to deny the Indoctrination Theory?


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#676
ImaginaryMatter

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Reorte wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...


It would be like giving the plans of a space shuttle to a talented team of engineers from the Bronze Age with nothing but blue prints and a desription that, "This device can move". That's the point of the Catalyst, we have no idea what it is, not even its nature, and what is known about it is frustratingly vague. As Hacket describes of the building building operation makes it sounds like the entire team is basically inserting material L into slot 9. It is continuously stressed throughout the game that no one on the project has any idea of what is actually being built.

If the Bronze Age engineers were actually capable of building the thing they'd have come up with a pretty good guess at what it does before they'd finished, and how it worked. You could rightly say that even the most gifted Bronze Age engineer wouldn't be able to work it out on his own, but he wouldn't be able to build it either.


I see where you are coming from. I guess the point I was getting at is that a shuttle involves several physical mechanics that the people of the Bronze Age wouldn't have known about or maybe even have been able to comprehend without several years or decades of research.

Your second sentence brings up a point of the Crucible that always bothered me. How could all the scientists not figure out anything about the project while working on it. You think at some point they would identify something that was a generator; hell the contruction of the final decision chamber would spur some discussion amognst the scientists.

#677
Reorte

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ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Your second sentence brings up a point of the Crucible that always bothered me. How could all the scientists not figure out anything about the project while working on it. You think at some point they would identify something that was a generator; hell the contruction of the final decision chamber would spur some discussion amognst the scientists.

I suppose you could give someone a pile of Technic Lego and some instructions and they could build a device without having a clue what it is or what it would do, and that's the sort of thing the story was getting at. I'm just not convinced that that concept can be plausibly scaled up.

Is the decision chamber part of the Crucible or the Citadel? I always thought it was the latter.

#678
SwobyJ

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The decision chamber is in the minddddddd.

The Citadel's AI facilitates the decision made ;)

Breathe...Wake up...

#679
ImaginaryMatter

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Reorte wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Your second sentence brings up a point of the Crucible that always bothered me. How could all the scientists not figure out anything about the project while working on it. You think at some point they would identify something that was a generator; hell the contruction of the final decision chamber would spur some discussion amognst the scientists.

I suppose you could give someone a pile of Technic Lego and some instructions and they could build a device without having a clue what it is or what it would do, and that's the sort of thing the story was getting at. I'm just not convinced that that concept can be plausibly scaled up.

Is the decision chamber part of the Crucible or the Citadel? I always thought it was the latter.


I always assumed it was the Crucible because that made more sense to me; although I could easily be wrong.

#680
AlanC9

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It looks to me  like the final decision chamber is on the Citadel; the Crucible is docked above the platform. So the Crucible engineers didn't build the chamber.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 janvier 2014 - 04:04 .


#681
ImaginaryMatter

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Here's an image, I always thought the part circled red looked like the prongs the Destroy and Control options are on. Then again the green circle looks like the platform you're on and Shepard was confirmed to be on the Citadel for the Destroy ending so it seem unlikely that he got conveniently blasted from one to the other. But then again why would there be some random exposed fuel line on the outside of the Citadel, you think some one would have noticed that and then...

now I don't know what to believe. Does anyone know if BioWare confirmed one or the other? This isn't part of any IT thing, now I'm curious.

Image IPB

#682
SwobyJ

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He's on the Citadel. It just isn't as it appears.

Utopia
Heaven
Purgatory
Afterlife
Eternity
Earth


LOL OK I'LL STAHP

#683
ElSuperGecko

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ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Your second sentence brings up a point of the Crucible that always bothered me. How could all the scientists not figure out anything about the project while working on it. You think at some point they would identify something that was a generator; hell the contruction of the final decision chamber would spur some discussion amognst the scientists.


The scientists and engineers whoworked on the Crucible didn't build the "decision chamber". They had nothing to do with it's construction.. at least, not if you trust the Catalyst and believe the very first thing it tells you...

Shepard: "What? Where am I?"

Catalyst: "The Citadel. It is my home."

(....and then)

Catalyst: "You have hope, more than you know. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it".

#684
ElSuperGecko

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...which again begs the question - how did these choices - Destroy, Control, Synthesis - become available?  The Catalyst (again, should you believe and trust it), tells us:

Catalyst:  "The device you refer to as the crucible is little more than a power source. However in combination with the citadel and the relays it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy. It is crude but effective and adaptive in it’s design."

The Crucible is a power source. It is how that power is used that determines it's final function.  It is the intent with which that power is used that determines it's function.

Who intends to use the Crucible to Destroy the Reapers?  The Alliance, the races and species that are being attacked andmurdered in their billions by the Reapers in this cycle - the engineers and scientists that worked on it's construction in this cycle.

Who intends to use the Crucible to Control the Reapers? The Illusive Man, who had more comprehensive access to both the Crucible's schematics and theThessia VI before the Alliance ever did.  Who had been conducting experiments on Reaper control before Mass Effect 3 even began.  The man who relocated to the Citadel (taking whatever technology he himself had constructed with him) before the Reapers captured it and took it to Earth.

Who intends to use the Crucible for galactic Synthesis? The being that pulls this partiuclar "ideal solution" out of thin air, who has also "attempted a... similar solution... before".  The Catalyst itself, and by extension, the Reapers themselves.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:41 .


#685
AlanC9

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

Who intends to use the Crucible to Destroy the Reapers?  The Alliance, the races and species that are being attacked andmurdered in their billions by the Reapers in this cycle - the engineers and scientists that worked on it's construction in this cycle.


Nobody's questioning the intent. The question is their capacity for turning that intent into action.

I can get behind the idea of Control being a TIM add-on. He certainly had motive, probably had opportunity, and might have had means.

#686
ElSuperGecko

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AlanC9 wrote...
Nobody's questioning the intent. The question is their capacity for turning that intent into action.

I can get behind the idea of Control being a TIM add-on. He certainly had motive, probably had opportunity, and might have had means.


Looking back at our to-and-fro yesterday, I think we may have been talking (typing) at cross-purposes.

Re: ImaginaryMatter's question of how Destroy is more trustworthy than the other options... I'm not sure it is.  To be honest, I don't think the Catalyst is lying to us.  I think it is saying things as it sees them.

A side note - this doesn't mean that I think the Catalyst is right.  I think it's actions, assumptions and conclusions (most notably it's decision to cycically "harvest" all advanced organic life inorder to "save" life) - show an incredibly flawed logic which contains no understanding of organic life.  Hell, it's entire monologue is an exercise in logical fallacy - it's just a shame we're unable to call it out and question it.

But I don't think it is necessarily lying to us, unless by omission.  Attempting to inluence us, yes; attempting to direct our actions, yes - it clearly has it's own preferences, it's own goals and it's own motives.  But I don't think it is lying.

How are the choices triggered?  Who really knows?  We see what we see, and we have to make judgements based on that.

#687
AlanC9

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OK. FWIW, I like the idea of the Crucible being a Leviathan design. It looks like it always was a Synthesis device since that's how it works at its best, so whoever designed it likely believed in the synthetic/organic problem. Destroy is an off-label application.

#688
ElSuperGecko

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AlanC9 wrote...
OK. FWIW, I like the idea of the Crucible being a Leviathan design. It looks like it always was a Synthesis device since that's how it works at its best, so whoever designed it likely believed in the synthetic/organic problem. Destroy is an off-label application.


But were the Leviathan looking for a Synthesis-style solution?  From the conversation we had with them, it seemed as though they were just looking for a way to maintain their existing apex-race status, without haivng to worry about their organic subjects creating a synthetic race that would be able to ignore their ability to dominate & overthrow them (or wipe out their creators and leave the Leviathan without tribute).  Not saying it's not a Leviathan design of course, I'm just unsure if Synthesis could be considered a Leviathan goal.


My major worry about the Cruicble is that it's a Reaper device.  Not talking IT here as such, but there's so very little we know about the device's origins.  (and when we question glowboy about it, he breezily ducks the question).

To reiterate an idea I posted elsewhere - I found myself thinking this morning about the Catalyst, the Crucible, the Reapers and Synthesis.

I know this has probably been discussed countless times before, but could it be that successful construction of the Crucible is the Catalyst's requirement for creating a new Reaper?

I mean - we know that the Reapers do not simply harvest advanced organicraces; they harvest and collect their technology as well, leaving almost no traces of their civilisation behind. Now look at the war assets required to construct the Crucible, and Shepard's hunt for them. Are we not actually collecting and compiling the most advanced technology the galaxy has available to use in it's construction?  Are we not effectively "harvesting" this technology ourselves?

Then of course, we look at how we reach the Synthesis ending - it is not immediately available, it requires a LOT of war assets. In fact, that seems to be a reason why some people think it is the "best" ending - because it takes the most work to unlock.

The Reapers don't attempt to hunt down and destroy the Crucible; the allow us the opportunity to build it. They don't appear to deliberately target it during the battle over Earth; they let it dock with the Citadel instead.
We don't know who the original creators and designers of the Crucible were, only that the schematics have managed to survive and adapt through countless cycles, while all other technology was harvested or destroyed.

And of course, if other cycles have built the Crucible "modifying and improving upon it each time", then the Reapers will have encountered it in each of these cycles, and will be aware of the threat (or potential) it has.
Finally, consider the fate of the Protheans - the only other cycle other than our own we have first hand knowledge and understanding of.  We are told that the Reapers apparently failed to create a new Reaper in the Prothean cycle... and we are also told that the Protheans were unable to complete construction of the Crucible device.  Is this simply a coincidence?

So, we have a giant, mysterious device of unknown origins, assembled by the greatest scientific minds of this cycle, using the apex of advanced technology available to this cycle... and the more resources we put into it, the closer we get to the "ideal solution" of Synthesis.  A gigantic power source, containing almost unimaignable power... and the Reapers do diddly squat to stop it's construction.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 05 janvier 2014 - 06:16 .


#689
ImaginaryMatter

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I always mused to myself that the Crucible's original purpose was something completely different, something like the terraforming Genesis device from The Wrath of Khan. Ultimately, some other species found it during their Reaper invasion and began modifying it from there.

#690
ElSuperGecko

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Just spotted this fan-made video on a random trawl through Youtube.  Indoctrination Theory in 3 minutes.

It's probably the first Indoctrination Theory video I've seen which manages to sum up the idea and get the point across without going on for the best part of an hour. 

If speculation is what Bioware were going for with ME3, speculation is what they got!

#691
Farangbaa

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The Catalyst is genuine. It's a goddamn shackled AI.

#692
ElSuperGecko

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Psychevore wrote...
The Catalyst is genuine. It's a goddamn shackled AI.


It's a bit more complicated than that, isn't it?

Shepard: So you’re just an AI?
Catalyst: In as much as you are just an animal. I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers.


And even if it is just a "shackled AI", that doesn't mean that it is right.  Or that we have to blindly accept it's logic and reasoning.  Perhaps it missed some salient information.

#693
Farangbaa

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

Psychevore wrote...
The Catalyst is genuine. It's a goddamn shackled AI.


It's a bit more complicated than that, isn't it?

Shepard: So you’re just an AI?
Catalyst: In as much as you are just an animal. I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers.


And even if it is just a "shackled AI", that doesn't mean that it is right.  Or that we have to blindly accept it's logic and reasoning.  Perhaps it missed some salient information.


I didn't say that it was right. I said it was genuine. It believes it is right and speaks the truth, therefore it is not lying to you.

Think for a moment that I believe in God, and that I tell you that you go to hell if you don't do His bidding. You don't believe in God. From your perspective, I am lying to you, but from my perspective I am speaking the truth, and nothing but the truth. I'm not trying to deceive you.

In essence, that Catalyst isn't lying to you, trying to deceive you or whatever. In it's view on the galaxy, it is right.

I accept it's logic btw, but that is beside the point I'm trying to make here. 

Modifié par Psychevore, 08 janvier 2014 - 09:32 .


#694
ElSuperGecko

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Psychevore wrote...
In essence, that Catalyst isn't lying to you, trying to deceive you or whatever. In it's view on the galaxy, it is right.


Fair enough - that's pretty much my stance on it as well (except I believe it's flat out wrong in it's logic and it's conclusions)

#695
OdanUrr

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

And even if it is just a "shackled AI", that doesn't mean that it is right.  Or that we have to blindly accept it's logic and reasoning.  Perhaps it missed some salient information.


True, but given it's been around for eons the balance of probability falls in its favour.

#696
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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He's wrong if you want him to be and have the power to silence him. You're just as much a singularity to him as he is to you. There's no god or mediator or objective realm of logic interfering into the Mass Effect universe that gives a **** what either of you decide.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:30 .


#697
Farangbaa

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OdanUrr wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

And even if it is just a "shackled AI", that doesn't mean that it is right.  Or that we have to blindly accept it's logic and reasoning.  Perhaps it missed some salient information.


True, but given it's been around for eons the balance of probability falls in its favour.


This.

#698
MattFini

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OdanUrr wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

And even if it is just a "shackled AI", that doesn't mean that it is right.  Or that we have to blindly accept it's logic and reasoning.  Perhaps it missed some salient information.


True, but given it's been around for eons the balance of probability falls in its favour.


Maybe, but we don't even see evidence of this in the last cycle. Just more reaper-controlled synthetics that warred with the protheans. 

So is the Catalyst just operating on the assuption that this will always happen (synthetics will always destroy organics) because it's been programmed to do so? 

#699
OriginalTibs

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ElSuperGecko wrote...
Who intends to use the Crucible for galactic Synthesis? The being that pulls this partiuclar "ideal solution" out of thin air, who has also "attempted a... similar solution... before".  The Catalyst itself, and by extension, the Reapers themselves.

I cannot agree with your conclusion. Synthesis is the only answer that resolves the primary conflict in the story, from Geth through Reaper. The synthesis of the thesis of biological lifeforms and the antithesis of artificial lifeforms. It is dialexis, and in most respects elegant in the context of the story. I don't think it was supposed to end there, but I wasn't consulted.

#700
ElSuperGecko

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OdanUrr wrote...
True, but given it's been around for eons the balance of probability falls in its favour.


Not without an understanding of organic life, it doesn't.  The Catalyst has an incomplete understanding of organic life (see - no understanding whatsoever).  It admits as much in it's conversation to us.  Without that understanding -without that perspective - it's logic, it's conclusions and it's solutions are nd will always be fatally flawed.