739 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

The issue of indoctrination ultimately rests on Bioware. IT people aren't going to stop until Bioware addresses the very own plot issues they set up. Some of them might be loony, but I think it's unfair to attack them all on principle.

I thought the standard attack on them was that they're self-deluded fools. Not exactly a matter of principle.

[DeathScepter]

BloodxGusher wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The issue of indoctrination ultimately rests on Bioware. IT people aren't going to stop until Bioware addresses the very own plot issues they set up. Some of them might be loony, but I think it's unfair to attack them all on principle.

no it is quite fair to attack them on principle.

It would be if they completely made up the concept of Indoctrination. But they didn't. They add fuel to the fire, but they didn't start the fire. It's something that needs to be addressed again by it's creators, in one way or another.

it is completely made up. As I will use the Oily Shadow dreams for example, I had them and I am not indoctrinated yet.

I don't know how much of the IT you know of but the from what I have read, those visions are apart of a months/years long process on indoctrination on Shep. The final push I believe are at the end of the game.

Well there is slow and fast indoctrination. And Yes I am joking around. Most people need to lighten up. Personally I do truly believe that it was slow indoctrination for Shepard if did a Indoctrinated Shepard playthru. I do Like my Arrival IT the most because it makes the entire of Me3 a dream and mindscrew.

[ElSuperGecko]

BloodxGusher wrote...
I don't know how much of the IT you know of but the from what I have read, those visions are apart of a months/years long process on indoctrination on Shep. The final push I believe are at the end of the game.

Yup.

As far as IT goes, Shepard is not indoctrinated - but undergoing an indoctrination attempt at the end of the game (Priority Earth onwards).  The recurring nightmares arejust one of many symptoms that something's not quite right.

The conversation with the Catalyst - and the choice Shepard is faced with - is essentially the tipping point.

But hey - it's just one interpretation.

[Farangbaa]

StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The issue of indoctrination ultimately rests on Bioware. IT people aren't going to stop until Bioware addresses the very own plot issues they set up. Some of them might be loony, but I think it's unfair to attack them all on principle.

I thought the standard attack on them was that they're self-deluded fools. Not exactly a matter of principle.

Either way, I don't see anything productive about it. It's just attacking, without replacing that void with anything else. The attackers or Bioware aren't explaining how to relate Indoctrination to the Reaper storyline. It's just kind of all shoved under the rug. And then attacking any fans as if they are the ones responsible for "indoctrination" in general (and not just "indoctrination theory" specifically). As long as this keeps happening, IT'ers won't be quiet. Someone else needs to address it and create an actual dialogue between all camps.

Are you for real!? We're not talking two political groups battling each other in the streets that need a mediator. We're talking about groups of people who're debating a videogame.

BW doesn't need to do anything. 

[BloodxGusher]

StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The issue of indoctrination ultimately rests on Bioware. IT people aren't going to stop until Bioware addresses the very own plot issues they set up. Some of them might be loony, but I think it's unfair to attack them all on principle.

I thought the standard attack on them was that they're self-deluded fools. Not exactly a matter of principle.

Either way, I don't see anything productive about it. It's just attacking, without replacing that void with anything else. The attackers or Bioware aren't explaining how to relate Indoctrination to the Reaper storyline. It's just kind of all shoved under the rug. And then attacking any fans as if they are the ones responsible for "indoctrination" in general (and not just "indoctrination theory" specifically). As long as this keeps happening, IT'ers won't be quiet. Someone else needs to address it and create an actual dialogue between all camps.

So do we know who was the initial person to suggest the ending of the game was IT? OR was this a random lot of hardcore ME players

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
I thought the standard attack on them was that they're self-deluded fools. Not exactly a matter of principle.

...which is one of the reasons why IT was banned in the first place, what with ad hominem attacks being the only counter-arguments most anti-IT'ers were able to muster. What's the phrase? "Debate the post, not the poster?"

BloodxGusher wrote...
So do we know who was the initial person to suggest the ending of the game was IT? OR was this a random lot of hardcore ME players

No one person really - a lot of players were expecting a twist of some sort, or an indoctrination attack on Shepard or one of his crew, and after the original shipped endings people started looking for answers.  I think plenty of players felt as though something was "off", or that there was more to it than met the eye.

That said, the various Youtube videos that covered IT in it's various incarnations helped push the idea to a much wider audience, as did the recurrent threads here on the BSN, Hold The Line, Gamefaqs etc...

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 04 décembre 2013 - 09:43 .

[Deathsaurer]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...which is one of the reasons why IT was banned in the first place, what with ad hominem attacks being the only counter-arguments most anti-IT'ers were able to muster. What's the phrase? "Debate the post, not the poster?"

Don't pretend both camps aren't guilty of this. The more exuberant IT fans were running around saying you aren't a real fan if you don't believe in IT.

[Face of Darkness]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

BloodxGusher wrote...
I don't know how much of the IT you know of but the from what I have read, those visions are apart of a months/years long process on indoctrination on Shep. The final push I believe are at the end of the game.

Yup.

As far as IT goes, Shepard is not indoctrinated - but undergoing an indoctrination attempt at the end of the game (Priority Earth onwards).  The recurring nightmares arejust one of many symptoms that something's not quite right.

The conversation with the Catalyst - and the choice Shepard is faced with - is essentially the tipping point.

But hey - it's just one interpretation.

My interpretation as well. Honestly it seems completely obvious to me that the Reapers were constantly attempting to indoctrinate Shepard since ME1 till the end of the trilogy.

I'm shocked that such a large faction of people would rather put the blinders on and say "No, IT is stupid and anyone who believes it is overthinking. Bioware just succumbed to ****ty writing." Even if you believe something else happened, ruling IT out is incredibly thick when it is a central theme of the entire game. Furthermore, it's pretty hilarious that these people would prefer to be mad and take out their anger on people who believe in IT. That said, it is clear to me that there is overwhelming evidence for IT throughout all 3 games, though most of it is in ME3

Imo, the non-believers are just jealous of IT supporters who wound up thoroughly enjoying the conclusion of the game. It's the best video game story I've ever experienced, and I doubt anything else will live up to it for me. 

[ElSuperGecko]

Deathsaurer wrote...
Don't pretend both camps aren't guilty of this. The more exuberant IT fans were running around saying you aren't a real fan if you don't believe in IT.

I'm not pretending anything ofthe sort.  There's been plenty of flame wars between all the various and ending-support camps.  Which will always happen when there's no one clear answer and you're talking about a franchise as beloved as Mass Effect is.

Fact is, people will always defend their opinions and ideas, and if attacked they'll respond in kind.  Some people just like to stir the pot - which is what the opinion I referenced above amounts to.

I'm far from innocent when it comes to pot-stirring myself, of course.  No moral high ground here.   

[BaladasDemnevanni]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Yeah, the "magical, mystical, extremely fortunate elevator" that Shepard just happens to fall on to when he/she passes out in front of the Citadel's control panel.  Complete with the dream sequence fade-to-white transition effect as it rises.  It's interesting that one, isn't it?

Yeah, Illusive Man just happens to locate a conveniently dead Reaper moments after Shepard determines that a Reaper IFF is needed on the Collector Ship?

Plot contrivances are Bioware's forte`. Pointing to them as obvious evidence of indoctrinations/hallucinations is pointless.

[Deathsaurer]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
I'm far from innocent when it comes to pot-stirring myself, of course.  No moral high ground here.   

Yes, your sig doesn't give that away at all

[BloodxGusher]

Deathsaurer wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...which is one of the reasons why IT was banned in the first place, what with ad hominem attacks being the only counter-arguments most anti-IT'ers were able to muster. What's the phrase? "Debate the post, not the poster?"

Don't pretend both camps aren't guilty of this. The more exuberant IT fans were running around saying you aren't a real fan if you don't believe in IT.

Im def guilty of this just not on the forums.

I finished ME3 about last week. I immediately sought out others imput because something just felt off about the ending upon completion. Primarily that empty feel of..."wtf! everything I did meant nothing?!" set in and I was open to something else coming. Possibly in more DLC but here we are what...almost 2 years down the line and nothing new. It felt like and sorta still fees like BW has that super cool DLC or extra bit of the story to tell, dangling over our heads seeing how long we could hold out.

So naturally the IT gave us that "to be seen" hope in a full completion on this story. I was more so caught up in the logical fact the IT was making. It was like "ok..wow..THAT really makes sense. Shepard would do that..The Reapers would do this."

[ElSuperGecko]

Face of Darkness wrote...
I'm shocked that such a large faction of people would rather put the blinders on and say "No, IT is stupid and anyone who believes it is overthinking. Bioware just succumbed to ****ty writing." Even if you believe something else happened, ruling IT out is incredibly thick when it is a central theme of the entire game. Furthermore, it's pretty hilarious that these people would prefer to be mad and take out their anger on people who believe in IT. That said, it is clear to me that there is overwhelming evidence for IT throughout all 3 games, though most of it is in ME3

People have preferences.  They develop andform opinions.  And they don't like to be tricked.  One of the central conceits of IT is that the end sequence is effectively a Reaper (see.  Bioware) trick.  That unless you choose right (literally), you choose wrong.

It's easy to understand why people would take issue with that, especially if they'bve invested themselves in a 200/300/400 hour plus game series and made their own decision based on their own experience.

(not that Bioware haven't done such before of course - they've just incorporated such "tricks" tranparently and obviously in previous games)

I'd also say it's wrong to call most of the IT related material "evidence".  It's not - if we had evidence, we'd have an answer.  It's just a collection of supporting ideas and interpretations based on scenes, conversations.encounters, plot points, discrepancies and coincidences throughout the series.

There's quite a lot of them to draw from.

Deathsaurer wrote...
Yes, your sig doesn't give that away at all

Nice of you to notice.  I have strong Admiral-Ackbar-esque feelings about Synthesis.  As such, I tend to enjoy frequent run ins with it's advocates.  A bit of banter doesn'thurt anyone, so long as it doesn't get personal.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 04 décembre 2013 - 10:18 .

[Deathsaurer]

I'm kinda and odd person. I liked the idea of IT at first. It sounded interesting. But then I saw the flame wars, a vicious cycle of ridiculousness and I said to myself nah this isn't doing anything for me anymore. I don't care if anyone likes it. More power to you if you do. Just please don't be pushy about it. Same goes for those that don't like it. The way everyone got divided into camps was awful. A whole lot of I'm right and you're wrong missing the point that there really isn't supposed to be a right or wrong.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 04 décembre 2013 - 10:02 .

[PanzerGr3nadier]

BloodxGusher wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...which is one of the reasons why IT was banned in the first place, what with ad hominem attacks being the only counter-arguments most anti-IT'ers were able to muster. What's the phrase? "Debate the post, not the poster?"

Don't pretend both camps aren't guilty of this. The more exuberant IT fans were running around saying you aren't a real fan if you don't believe in IT.

Im def guilty of this just not on the forums.

I finished ME3 about last week. I immediately sought out others imput because something just felt off about the ending upon completion. Primarily that empty feel of..."wtf! everything I did meant nothing?!" set in and I was open to something else coming. Possibly in more DLC but here we are what...almost 2 years down the line and nothing new. It felt like and sorta still fees like BW has that super cool DLC or extra bit of the story to tell, dangling over our heads seeing how long we could hold out.

So naturally the IT gave us that "to be seen" hope in a full completion on this story. I was more so caught up in the logical fact the IT was making. It was like "ok..wow..THAT really makes sense. Shepard would do that..The Reapers would do this."

We've all been there..... There is no IT only ****ty ending.

[BloodxGusher]

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

BloodxGusher wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...which is one of the reasons why IT was banned in the first place, what with ad hominem attacks being the only counter-arguments most anti-IT'ers were able to muster. What's the phrase? "Debate the post, not the poster?"

Don't pretend both camps aren't guilty of this. The more exuberant IT fans were running around saying you aren't a real fan if you don't believe in IT.

Im def guilty of this just not on the forums.

I finished ME3 about last week. I immediately sought out others imput because something just felt off about the ending upon completion. Primarily that empty feel of..."wtf! everything I did meant nothing?!" set in and I was open to something else coming. Possibly in more DLC but here we are what...almost 2 years down the line and nothing new. It felt like and sorta still fees like BW has that super cool DLC or extra bit of the story to tell, dangling over our heads seeing how long we could hold out.

So naturally the IT gave us that "to be seen" hope in a full completion on this story. I was more so caught up in the logical fact the IT was making. It was like "ok..wow..THAT really makes sense. Shepard would do that..The Reapers would do this."

We've all been there..... There is no IT only ****ty ending.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still a strong believer in the IT but completely willing to release that judgement as soon as BW sets it straight. I don't care what they do, I am really eager to see something new from the ME universe.

[PanzerGr3nadier]

BloodxGusher wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

BloodxGusher wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...which is one of the reasons why IT was banned in the first place, what with ad hominem attacks being the only counter-arguments most anti-IT'ers were able to muster. What's the phrase? "Debate the post, not the poster?"

Don't pretend both camps aren't guilty of this. The more exuberant IT fans were running around saying you aren't a real fan if you don't believe in IT.

Im def guilty of this just not on the forums.

I finished ME3 about last week. I immediately sought out others imput because something just felt off about the ending upon completion. Primarily that empty feel of..."wtf! everything I did meant nothing?!" set in and I was open to something else coming. Possibly in more DLC but here we are what...almost 2 years down the line and nothing new. It felt like and sorta still fees like BW has that super cool DLC or extra bit of the story to tell, dangling over our heads seeing how long we could hold out.

So naturally the IT gave us that "to be seen" hope in a full completion on this story. I was more so caught up in the logical fact the IT was making. It was like "ok..wow..THAT really makes sense. Shepard would do that..The Reapers would do this."

We've all been there..... There is no IT only ****ty ending.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still a strong believer in the IT but completely willing to release that judgement as soon as BW sets it straight. I don't care what they do, I am really eager to see something new from the ME universe.

http://www.complex.c...er-white-moment

Master Mac Walter said 1,5 moths ago;

It’s been 18-19 months since it came out and my thoughts on it are that we addressed it the best we could in the extended cut.

We’re obviously not going to be changing anything now. We’re only going forward.

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

Either way, I don't see anything productive about it. It's just attacking, without replacing that void with anything else. The attackers or Bioware aren't explaining how to relate Indoctrination to the Reaper storyline. It's just kind of all shoved under the rug. And then attacking any fans as if they are the ones responsible for "indoctrination" in general (and not just "indoctrination theory" specifically). As long as this keeps happening, IT'ers won't be quiet. Someone else needs to address it and create an actual dialogue between all camps.

You seem to be assuming that there's a real issue here that needs to be resolved. I don't see one. I've seen the IT evidence, and at best it's a couple of remnants of a scrapped plot idea plus a few things that are just being completely misinterpreted; for instance, sometimes a texture is just re-used without this signifying anything except limited resources. (At worst, it's all misinterpretation)

What sort of dialogue can there be except the one we have?

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 décembre 2013 - 10:36 .

[ElSuperGecko]

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...
*snip*  ...Master Mac Walter said 1,5 moths ago;

Holy quote pyramids Batman.  Not sure what you're trying to suggest/prove with that particular link though?

AlanC9 wrote...
You seem to be assuming that there's a real issue here that needs to be resolved. I don't see one.

I agree - theres nothing that needs to be resolved either way.  ME3 is done and dusted  (unless we're REALLY lucky and Bioware sneaks one last DLC out to hype the new game's launch, but that's extremely doubtful).

People have their interpretations of the series, the game, it's endings and everything that comes with it.  Maybe the next game will address them.  Maybe it won't.  We'll have to wait and see.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 04 décembre 2013 - 10:41 .

[AlanC9]

Right. Even a sequel won't necessarily resolve things. Canonizing Destroy wouldn't prove anything at all, for instance. Canonizing Synthesis could wipe out a lot of the negative interpretations, but Bio's unlikely to canonize such an unpopular option. I suppose a KotOR 2-style sequel start could be made compatible with IT if Bio cared to, as loathsome as the thought is.

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 décembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[Face of Darkness]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

People have preferences.  They develop andform opinions.  And they don't like to be tricked.  One of the central conceits of IT is that the end sequence is effectively a Reaper (see.  Bioware) trick.  That unless you choose right (literally), you choose wrong.

I understand that plenty of people see it this way, but I don't. Why should choosing to control the Reapers be "wrong"? Is it really unfathomable that there might be a type of person out there with the confidence to say "I could do a better job than the Reapers"?

Control was initially the first ending I chose, before the EC. The Illusive Man was one of my favorite characters in the game, and I certainly sympathised with his train of thought. The lore even stays true to why he was unable to control the Reapers despite his best efforts, because he was indoctrinated before the events of the trilogy ever transpired (you would need to read the comic 'Mass Effect Evolution' or the summary on mass effect wiki to know this)

It's easy to understand why people would take issue with that, especially if they'bve invested themselves in a 200/300/400 hour plus game series and made their own decision based on their own experience.

Well of course this makes perfect sense, it's just funny that people get mad about the game not ending in the perfect way they wanted. I find it especially funny that many people were irritated about not gaining any closure about the relationships they created with other characters in a game about war. Were they expecting to see all the Normandy Crew living happily ever after? Or halfway dead pulling themselves out of rubble? To me, leaving the paths of the other characters open ended was 100% the correct way to close that part of the lore

(not that Bioware haven't done such before of course - they've just incorporated such "tricks" tranparently and obviously in previous games)

Fair enough, I wouldn't know, as this was the only Bioware game I've ever played

I'd also say it's wrong to call most of the IT related material "evidence".  It's not - if we had evidence, we'd have an answer.  It's just a collection of supporting ideas and interpretations based on scenes, conversations.encounters, plot points, discrepancies and coincidences throughout the series.

There's quite a lot of them to draw from.

I don't disagree with this, and I could obviously be wrong. But to me, that is the beauty of this story. From the very first mention of Indoctrination in ME1 I was constantly paranoid about being "indoctrinated" at every turn in the game. The decision to board the derelict Reaper and Collecter ship in ME2, to activate Legion, all the key conversations etc; I was utterly fascinated by the concept, and the ending gave me exactly what I wanted. Every replay of the game only further solidified my feelings.

I sympathize with the people who wanted a perfect ending, the tale of the badass Shepard who had an inconquerable will and saved the universe against all odds...But with everything that he went through in the trilogy, the amount of times he encountered Reapers and even spent time aboard a Reaper...that would just be completely unrealistic to me. The fact that indoctrination functions through an actual physical interaction with the brain just makes it seem impossible that Shepard walks away 100% unscathed

That said, I'm not trying to step on anyones opinions, just voicing mine and why I thoroughly enjoyed this trilogy start to finish.

Modifié par Face of Darkness, 04 décembre 2013 - 11:03 .