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Bioware, Let's Talk About... Inconsequential Choices


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#1
Fast Jimmy

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 Howdy do, BSN.

I'd like to start a conversation about Inconsequential Choices.

Choices are one of the main hallmarks of Bioware games. You get control of a character and can have many different ways to enjoy that character, based on the ethical, personal and ideological choices you make with them. Many of these choices involve branching choices, a yes/no or black/white outcome that gives two different outcomes to a problem or story.

This thread is not about those.

Don't get me wrong, I love those types of choices and I would love to see more done with them in the future... but there is another set of choices, choices which don't get enough "love" here on the BSN that I wanted to talk about. And that is Inconsequential Choices.

For instance... in DA:O, you can have a conversation with your companions where they ask about your childhood, or your parents, or how you feel about being part of the Grey Wardens, or a number of other topics. The response you make doesn't have to be true (you can say your father is alive when you know him to be dead, as an example), they aren't elaborated on in future conversations or events, they don't raise the approval or disapproval of any of your companions and they don't, really, have any consequence. They are, truly, inconsequential.

These types of choices can be looked at with derision by some, but I think they bring a LOT to the table. NOTE: This is not talking about choices that don't matter at all, but SHOULD. Whether or not you kill Gascard DuPuis, the alleged serial killer (he's not) who is chasing down the man who would kill your mother SHOULD have played a role in the story later on, but it didn't. I'm not talking about serious plot choices that don't make an impact, but rather simple choices in conversation which do nothing more than just let you define who your character is in harmless but significant ways.

Character Definition:

Bioware has made it a goal to try and give us personal main characters in their games, characters that the players can identify with as a personality, but then also define on their own to make them "their" character. This is often very hard to do, where Bioware wants to tell a story, but doesn't want to overstep boundaries that can deifne the main character too much.

Choices such as these, where there is no "meta" involvement - meaning it has no impact or influence on the rest of the gaming experience - are fantastic opportunities to let the player breathe life into their character, to further flesh out their motivations and background in the player's mind, but also not being tied to any additional content. We can express history that is never touched on in the game, or we can even make a liar out of our PC, defining their personality or even demonstrating their relationship with their companion.

Which brings me to my next benefit...

Companion Development:

Many fans of DA2 lauded the companions as what brought them back for more. I personally didn't like some of the companions and one of the reasons is this - they were self absorbed to the maximum. I don't feel like they asked me questions about my past, about how I felt about things or about my dreams of the future (outside of the ability to profess staying with your respective LI for all time, of course). I'm not saying those types of conversations never happened in DA2, but to my mind, none of them ever really stood out.

Regardless, in DA:O, I felt like Wynne actually cared about what I thought. I thought Leliana was actually curious about my upbringing and history. I felt like the crazy Mad Hermit was a creepster for wanting to know personal details about my past. Because they weren't just referencing a past event that was outlined in my origin, but were actually asking questions I, as the player, often had no backstory or ability to answer. So we were forced to dig into how we imagined our character and choose a response accordingly. There was no diplomatic/snarky/aggressive option on this - we had to conjure our actual feelings, not stick to a defined script of who our character was already made out to be.

This type of connection to the companions made me feel like they WERE my Warden's friends. Because instead of hanging out with my character killing people all the time and then talking only about themselves, they actually asked pretty probing questions about my character, as a person. Which made me feel like the friendship was much more of a two-way street.

Its Simple:

This is the last one, because I think it is fundamental. In a world where zots, budgets and time constraints are discussed a lot... this is a simple, elegant way to bring player agency right to the forefront without creating half a dozen tangent strings that would need to be followed up on. There is no flag to set, or further content to explore, or encounters to design - this is just an isolated, inconsequential question. A chance to say something about yourself that you wouldn't normally have a chance to, in a way that defines your character, but doesn't define anything else in the game (unless the player wants it to). 

Its cheap, but its powerful because it is what it is - a chance to speak our minds. And when we are doing that, we have control of our character in the purest way possible. It  helps with making our character from being rigidly defined as a "character Bioware wrote"... yet it also saves us from having a "boring" clean slate character, with no backstory or personality.





TL:DR: I'd like to see more instances of meaningful choice (of course), but I'd also like more instances of choices that don't affect anything (and SHOULDN'T affect anything) that let us flesh out the idea of the character we have. These simple, isolated and elegant choices add many small touches that can help us feel like we have a character who represents our vision of the character in our head, instead of having a completely defined protagonist or an undefined blank slate character.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 janvier 2013 - 01:40 .


#2
InfinitePaths

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Yeah sure,it would be cool if you had some minor comedic non important reference to the simple stuff you said in the dialouge,but yeah i agree with you.

#3
Kidd

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I agree with this so much. One of my favourite parts of DA2 was when Varric asked Hawke what she wanted to do in life. Don't think it matters one bit whatever you pick, but it will tell me as a player a lot about my character when I pick one of the options regardless. Even if I will abstain from answering, that says a lot. And that Varric asked in the first place... yeah, that chest-haired teddy bear cares for my character, he's so freaking cute <3

#4
Plaintiff

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I thought there were plenty of these in DA2. I don't think they'll be going away.

#5
Fast Jimmy

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Plaintiff wrote...

I thought there were plenty of these in DA2. I don't think they'll be going away.


Do you mind supplying some examples that really stood out to you from DA2? I really can only recall examples from DA:O, but I am sure there were some in DA2. 

And, further, did you (anyone, not just Plantiff) have any particular questions/choices/dialogue options that brought of would bring value to the table? Topics such as what your fears are, or any childhood pets, or whatever. Just different topics you could be asked about that people feel has value. 

#6
Kidd

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Off the top of my head, Varric asks Hawke what they will do in act 2 now that they've got their estate back. Fenris asks Hawke about life, potential moving back to Ferelden etc in... I believe act1. We have the talk with five potential characters after All That Remains.

There's probably some more that I don't remember =)

#7
Wulfram

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Really, almost every tone choice is a mostly inconsequential choice of sorts, aside from some potential approval/disapproval from companions.

#8
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you know i play DA2 alot an i mean alot, but the thing i dont play it for is the companions simply because i dont really like any off them, i dont know what it is or why but i cant be bothered with most of them.

DAO i play for the companions, the nature and creation an story telling of those companions is a milliion times better than those of da2 and its true what your saying the small things made the difference, Alaister just his childlike nature and the part when he pulls u asidee wanting the gossip on all the other companions, morrigan the full story of breaking through her defenses to find the lonely woman behind it all, an sten lol cookies, fight for leadership etc wats there not to love, shale stomping pigeons, dont like zevran he stabbed in the eye as soon as he met lol, leliana im no sure on still she makes me scratch my head but her talk about shoes an stuff is a lol

An then theres the banter, the banter between them all in DAO is just far superior, morrigan v leliana if you got both interested, morrigan v alistair, the combos an the banter are just awesome tbh an never gets tiresome unlike the da2 stuff

#9
nightscrawl

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Howdy do, BSN.

I really like these threads of yours, Jimmy.


Choices such as these, where there is no "meta" involvement - meaning it has no impact or influence on the rest of the gaming experience - are fantastic opportunities to let the player breathe life into their character, to further flesh out their motivations and background in the player's mind, but also not being tied to any additional content. We can express history that is never touched on in the game, or we can even make a liar out of our PC, defining their personality or even demonstrating their relationship with their companion.

I agree completely. The other benefit is that something like this can make a conversation seem more natural.


Companion Development:

Many fans of DA2 lauded the companions as what brought them back for more. I personally didn't like some of the companions and one of the reasons is this - they were self absorbed to the maximum. I don't feel like they asked me questions about my past, about how I felt about things or about my dreams of the future (outside of the ability to profess staying with your respective LI for all time, of course). I'm not saying those types of conversations never happened in DA2, but to my mind, none of them ever really stood out.

Regardless, in DA:O, I felt like Wynne actually cared about what I thought. I thought Leliana was actually curious about my upbringing and history. I felt like the crazy Mad Hermit was a creepster for wanting to know personal details about my past. Because they weren't just referencing a past event that was outlined in my origin, but were actually asking questions I, as the player, often had no backstory or ability to answer. So we were forced to dig into how we imagined our character and choose a response accordingly. There was no diplomatic/snarky/aggressive option on this - we had to conjure our actual feelings, not stick to a defined script of who our character was already made out to be.

This type of connection to the companions made me feel like they WERE my Warden's friends. Because instead of hanging out with my character killing people all the time and then talking only about themselves, they actually asked pretty probing questions about my character, as a person. Which made me feel like the friendship was much more of a two-way street.

I can honestly say that I never thought of the companions in DA2 this way, but now that you mention it, this is right on the money. Sometimes it did seem that I was talking at them, rather than engaging in conversation, even if the talk was about important stuff. You can have heated conversations with Anders about mages, but you can never relate anything to your experience of being an apostate. Bethany alludes to constant moving and so forth to elude the templars while she was growing up, yet you can never discuss this with Anders or Fenris to develop your mage character, or in the case of non-mages, your feelings about going through this with mage family members.

There was a banter in MotA and a conversation in Legacy where you talk about yourself a bit, and the instances where Varric asks you a couple of things (your reaction to the ogre and what you are going to do as a noble,) but other than that I can't really think of any meaningful dialog of this type that exists solely for character development.

I like the companions in various ways and for various reasons, but the main thing I can appreciate about them is the character development that all of them go through. However, I never really felt that they knew my Hawke, but rather had similar or dissimilar opinions than her.

However, I will say that part of the reason for these feelings were the time jumps and the limited conversation opportunities with the companions, most of which revolved around their quests, so of course the talk would be mostly about them.


And, further, did you (anyone, not just Plantiff) have any particular questions/choices/dialogue options that brought of would bring value to the table? Topics such as what your fears are, or any childhood pets, or whatever. Just different topics you could be asked about that people feel has value.

To me, one of the most meaningful conversations in DAO was one with Wynne about what it means to be a Grey Warden. Yes, true to her nature, she used it to impart a lesson, but the options were such that with that one conversation you could basically state your purpose for the entire game. It had no consequence whatsoever, but I thought it was fantastic.

Regarding general topics, I like the "what your fears are" in the context of a situation. I've head canoned a couple of conversations regarding this. I tend to play Hawke as someone just trying to hold it all together, and as someone who basically feels like a failure after her mother is killed. The world is falling down around her but there is nothing she can do about it. I would have loved some way to express this in the game.

Also somewhat related are reaction options to companion conversation. There were a couple of times where I felt Fenris was unnecessarily cruel to Merrill and I really would have liked the opportunity to say something in response.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 04 janvier 2013 - 03:26 .


#10
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I personally wouldn't mind less quote unquote "meaningful choices" and more choices like this. Story choices can't do half as much to define your character as these can.

Sounds like I've been rubbing off on you, Jimmy.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 04 janvier 2013 - 04:23 .


#11
Fast Jimmy

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Nightacrawl wrote...
Fast Jimmy wrote...

Howdy do, BSN.


I really like these threads of yours, Jimmy.


As always, I live to serve. :)

EntropicAngel wrote...
Sounds like I've been rubbing off on you, Jimmy.


Now things are getting kinky, yes?

#12
Olwaye

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It seems a lot of us would like to have the DA:O conversations with the companions back.

You could talk about a lot of these inconsequential things at camp, or while traveling, I particularly remeber being able to ask Leliana if she knew something about the place you were in, and she could tell you the story of the place if she knew it.
Or you could ask for a kiss from your LI anywhere, with the other party members reacting.
It did made the game feel deeper, and allowed those of us who like to create a full backstory for their characters to do so, while letting those who prefer the more technical, tactical aspect of the game carry on playing without having to bother too much about characterisation.

I already missed the ability to start a conversation with a companion anywhere in Awakening.

It was, for me, one of the best features in DA:O and one I would have liked becoming a trademark of the franchise.

#13
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Olwaye wrote...

It seems a lot of us would like to have the DA:O conversations with the companions back.

You could talk about a lot of these inconsequential things at camp, or while traveling, I particularly remeber being able to ask Leliana if she knew something about the place you were in, and she could tell you the story of the place if she knew it.
Or you could ask for a kiss from your LI anywhere, with the other party members reacting.
It did made the game feel deeper, and allowed those of us who like to create a full backstory for their characters to do so, while letting those who prefer the more technical, tactical aspect of the game carry on playing without having to bother too much about characterisation.

I already missed the ability to start a conversation with a companion anywhere in Awakening.

It was, for me, one of the best features in DA:O and one I would have liked becoming a trademark of the franchise.


I was actually thinking about it, and it really seems to me that DA ][ would have been better for it: while most Bioware games feature some kind of clear "big bad" where you're in a race against time, DA ][ was most definitely not that way. DA ][ was possibly the slowest-pased Bioware game I've playe--which should have given it a lot of option for companion interaction beyond their particular plot point, just as people. We did have some, but as some have said, it's mostly a one-sided conversation.

#14
Fast Jimmy

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Wulfram wrote...

Really, almost every tone choice is a mostly inconsequential choice of sorts, aside from some potential approval/disapproval from companions.


To be fair, tone does affect some things, such as whether or not you can spare Sister Patriece (ironically enough, you have to play an extremely aggressive character to get the option to spare an NPC... oh, the irony). These are few and far between, so I agree that the choice is mostly cosmetic, but being the tone as it was used in DA2 has so many ancillary reprucussions, given that it colors nearly evey other choice you make if you play a pure tone character, that I didn't really consider it as a Inconsequential Choice in my review. But I do understand where you are coming from with the sentiment. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 janvier 2013 - 05:05 .


#15
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Wulfram wrote...

Really, almost every tone choice is a mostly inconsequential choice of sorts, aside from some potential approval/disapproval from companions.


I don't feel that way. You define the tone of your character, but not your character as a person. The tones are usually three different ways to say one thing, which is restrictive, or  three different things--all with a particular tone tied to each opinion. What if I want to disaree with someone without sounding like I'm going to stab them? I'm restricted. I can't develop my character as purely, I'm forced into either playing a character who, within the context of the game, sounds bi-polar, or succumb and hit top right every time do be consistent within the game-world.

There are a few times where you're given a choice dialog or whatever, where all the three options have that those three arrows as their symbol, but it's few and far between it seems.

*sigh* I really do need to stop complaining about voiced protags, don't I.

#16
NoForgiveness

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Sounds like I've been rubbing off on you, Jimmy.

lol this sounds dirty

#17
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MR_PN wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sounds like I've been rubbing off on you, Jimmy.

lol this sounds dirty


It's an English phrase.

#18
Olwaye

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Damn double postImage IPB

Modifié par Olwaye, 04 janvier 2013 - 05:21 .


#19
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EntropicAngel wrote...


I was actually thinking about it, and it really seems to me that DA ][ would have been better for it: while most Bioware games feature some kind of clear "big bad" where you're in a race against time, DA ][ was most definitely not that way. DA ][ was possibly the slowest-pased Bioware game I've playe--which should have given it a lot of option for companion interaction beyond their particular plot point, just as people. We did have some, but as some have said, it's mostly a one-sided conversation.




Exactly

I was quite OK with DA2 being in a smaller setting than DA:O and over a longer period of time,  I was expecting more depth and possibility of roleplaying ( as much as video game can offer roleplaying) and much more intel on Thedas, so that is one of the reason I was disapointed with game, especially that contrary to some I do like the companions in DA2, so it was frustrating to have so few conversation and interaction option with them outside of their "personnal quests" time with Hawke.
Some of the Bioware staff on the forum and in the media have said that they had wanted DA2 to feel more "personal" hence the smaller seting, but for me the lack of interaction with your companions worked against it.

#20
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^ Pretty much the same.

#21
Sylvius the Mad

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I wonder if the paraphrase system is what keeps Jimmy from recognising these events in DA2. Since the player doesn't actually get to choose Hawke's responses, the extent to which the player can express his character's design through them is severely limited.

#22
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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I wonder if the paraphrase system is what keeps Jimmy from recognising these events in DA2. Since the player doesn't actually get to choose Hawke's responses, the extent to which the player can express his character's design through them is severely limited.


Possible, Sylvius, but I think the paraphrase has the ability to be not-bad. I think it's possible to paraphrase something and have an accurate approximation of what the character will say. With this one I think I'd blame not the system, but the way they implemented it. Execution.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 04 janvier 2013 - 05:34 .


#23
Fast Jimmy

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EntropicAngel wrote...
*sigh* I really do need to stop complaining about voiced protags, don't I.


It seems I may have been rubbing off on you now?

#24
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Fast Jimmy wrote...


It seems I may have been rubbing off on you now?


You or Mr. Mad :bandit:

Likely both.

#25
Sylvius the Mad

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Possible, Sylvius, but I think the paraphrase has the ability to be not-bad. I think it's possible to paraphrase something and have an accurate approximation of what the character will say. With this one I think I'd blame not the system, but the way they implemented it. Execution.

I wasn't suggesting that the paraphrase necessarily prevented this from working, but that the way the paraphrase was implemented in DA2 prevented this from working in DA2.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 04 janvier 2013 - 05:35 .