203 réponses à ce sujet

[Seival]

Indy_S wrote...

First of all, the clarifications. Explanations are changes. Constructive suggestions are criticism. Anti-enders lobbied for the EC as much as the unsatisfied-enders did. Criticism and support are not mutually exclusive.

The impact the fans had on Leviathan seems minimal at best. The biggest change we gave it was pushing its release date back. Yay us.

You put reasonable in your first post, so I'm going to try an appeal to reason. We've all argued for the improvement of Mass Effect 3. The central complaint is that the end of the game and the trilogy falls apart from lack of narrative cohesion. There are gaps in the story that require the player to fill in, which is the job of the writers. My job as a player is to be entertained and learn. For myself and others, we were not entertained by the ending and what we learnt went against what we had learnt over the previous three games. The central complaint has not been acknowledged by Bioware and so it will be propagated until it is.

Explanations are not changes. And constructive suggestions are not critisism.

Just like EC, the Leviathan DLC offers additional explanations. Explanations that people asked for.



You think all pro-enders find the ending perfect? No, not all of them. Still, they prefer to discuss the game constructively and give constructive suggestions to the devs, instead of screaming like vocal minority.

Personally, I see no "lack of narrative cohesion" in the ending. I find the ending perfect, and obviously this is not just my opinion.

Modifié par Seival, 05 janvier 2013 - 02:38 .

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

First of all, the clarifications. Explanations are changes. Constructive suggestions are criticism. Anti-enders lobbied for the EC as much as the unsatisfied-enders did. Criticism and support are not mutually exclusive.

The impact the fans had on Leviathan seems minimal at best. The biggest change we gave it was pushing its release date back. Yay us.

You put reasonable in your first post, so I'm going to try an appeal to reason. We've all argued for the improvement of Mass Effect 3. The central complaint is that the end of the game and the trilogy falls apart from lack of narrative cohesion. There are gaps in the story that require the player to fill in, which is the job of the writers. My job as a player is to be entertained and learn. For myself and others, we were not entertained by the ending and what we learnt went against what we had learnt over the previous three games. The central complaint has not been acknowledged by Bioware and so it will be propagated until it is.

Explanations are not changes. And constructive suggestions are not critisism.

Just like EC, the Leviathan DLC offers additional explanations. Explanations that people asked for.



You think all pro-enders find the ending perfect? No, not all of them. Still, they prefer to discuss the game constructively and give constructive suggestions to the devs, instead of screaming like vocal minority.

Personally, I see no "lack of narrative cohesion" in the ending. I find the ending perfect, and obviously this is not just my opinion.

Explanations are changes. They were not there before. They are now. Ergo. Change.

Constructive suggestions and critisism? Semantic's. The effect is the same provided the one who listen's to these critiques is able to understand the intent behind either.

Did you see 'no lack of narrative cohesion' before or after the ECDLC? Because after they 'CHANGED' the flow of event's by 'CHANGING' event's to factor in 'NEW' content that was not there before. Thereby 'CHANGING' what ONCE WAS, with WHAT IS NOW, you must be trying to figure out how something so perfect, could be made even more perfect.

But don't you see. That's funny! Seeing as how something perfect can not be made more perfect. Because if perfect can be made more perfect then it was not perfect in the first place.

But hey, I totally respect that this is not just your opinion................ wait wut?

[TheProtheans]

Seival wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

It's been almost a year and people are STILL screaming about ME3's ending. It's not without good reason either. That just goes to show you how bad it really is....

And there are also a lot of people who liked the ending. We (pro-enders) are not screaming about this. Because unlike vocal minority, we are reasonable and constructive. And this is one of the reasons why BioWare listen to our concerns and suggestions about the game, and ignore vocal minority.

Bioware never listened to your concerns.
You never even wanted clarity, you liked the ending, we got clarity that was useless and you liked the extra clarity we got.
All the questions that were answered(not many were answered) in DLC were more or less basic questions from before ME3.

You should be thanking Anti enders for getting Bioware to do something that helped you.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:00 .

[brummyuk19]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

That is true, HiddenInWar. At least we can all agree on the fact that the people who dislike the ending is a somewhat vocal minority. With emphasis on the minority part.

Funny, because most people on these forums detest the ending. Like someone else said, I don't think you understand what 'vocal minority' means.

It means that most of the people that hated the ending (which is most of the fans) have moved on and have better things to do than complain. It doesn't mean that only a minority of fans dislike the ending.

If we were the minority then our influence wouldn't of made the extended cut possible. So the proof is there, you just can't accept you're wrong.

[Seival]

TheProtheans wrote...

Seival wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

It's been almost a year and people are STILL screaming about ME3's ending. It's not without good reason either. That just goes to show you how bad it really is....

And there are also a lot of people who liked the ending. We (pro-enders) are not screaming about this. Because unlike vocal minority, we are reasonable and constructive. And this is one of the reasons why BioWare listen to our concerns and suggestions about the game, and ignore vocal minority.

Bioware never listened to your concerns.
You never even wanted clarity, you liked the ending, we got clarity that was useless and you liked the extra clarity we got.
All the questions that were answered(not many were answered) in DLC were more or less basic questions from before ME3.

You should be thanking Anti enders for getting Bioware to do something that helped you.

Not true.

Original ending was too blurry. Yes, eventually I liked even the original ending (and that was before EC). But also I took part in some discussions about original ending interpretations. Created some support threads. I talked about my vision of ideas behind the ending a lot.

Most constructive discussions were overflowed by vocal anti-enders, who couldn't tell anything constructive and just wanted support/discussion thread to be closed. Anti-enders were only an abuse. They are still an abuse. But regardless, BioWare noticed most of constructive concerns and ideas. They understood which questions should be answered, and how.

Example:
The most popular concern among Control ending supporters was "how Shepard can Control the Reapers if she is dead?". People in Control ending support thread discussed that matter through tens of pages. Initially, I was sure that Shepard will become the new Catalyst, but some people thought Shepard just gives Reapers final order to "go away" and then dies. There were also other opinions... It's clear that BioWare noticed that discussion, and EC adressed all questions discussed in that thread.

One more example:
A well-known (and hated by many anti-enders) Normandy Crash support thread was literally attacked by anti-enders. Even off-topic image spam was used. Anti-enders wanted the scene to be removed, and they wanted the thread to be closed. I wanted the scene to remain in game, and I wanted it to be used to explain that Mass Relay network wasn't destroyed forever. Eventually, the scene remained in game, and BioWare addressed my concern - showed that Mass Relay network wasn't destroyed forever, but not in the way discribed in the theory.



...BioWare listens to constructive discussions and notice constructive concerns/ideas. This is just fact. And they will never do something stupid to please vocal minority, which can only scream and sabotage support threads.

Modifié par Seival, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:54 .

[TheProtheans]

I think you're under the delusion that they listened to you and not did things because they were going to do them anyway.
Anti enders were just making fun of how stupid the crash scene was, it initially broke lore(but that was later retconned to work with lore in CE).
A lot of anti enders wanted this piece of nonsense to be explained, it was explained it a shoddy way later though.
They recognized a lot of anti enders were confused about this entire scene so they fixed it to the best of EA's ability.
They also recognized anti enders were upset with the end game message so they altered the end game message.
Everyone wanted closure, if they had given crap closure to just destroy people then it would look bad, so they expanded on all the endings with this limited closure.
If them expanding on Control helps pro enders then good for them, doesn't mean they listened to your ideas(they had their own ideas of what they meant from before working on EC)

But all of this happened because of the anti enders, all post EC pro enders should be thanking them.
Oh and your Normandy Crash theory was ridiculous, all your ideas are silly.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 05 janvier 2013 - 06:16 .

[Iakus]

Seival wrote...

...BioWare listens to constructive discussions and notice constructive concerns/ideas. This is just fact. And they will never do something stupid to please vocal minority, which can only scream and sabotage support threads.

Well if by "constructive concern" you mean "Stuff that backs up what they already did" then sure, I guess.

But tell that to people who actually wanted to see Shepard survive and have a reunion. Who wanted the breath scene expanded on.  I guess their concerns weren't "constructive" enough

And those who found the very themes of the endings distasteful can take their "Rocks Fall" ending and go pound sand too.

[Seival]

TheProtheans wrote...

I think you're under the delusion that they listened to you and not did things because they were going to do them anyway.
Anti enders were just making fun of how stupid the crash scene was, it initially broke lore(but that was later retconned to work with lore in CE).
A lot of anti enders wanted this piece of nonsense to be explained, it was explained it a shoddy way later though.
They recognized a lot of anti enders were confused about this entire scene so they fixed it to the best of EA's ability.
They also recognized anti enders were upset with the end game message so they altered the end game message.
Everyone wanted closure, if they had given crap closure to just destroy people then it would look bad, so they expanded on all the endings with this limited closure.
If them expanding on Control helps pro enders then good for them, doesn't mean they listened to your ideas(they had their own ideas of what they meant from before working on EC)

But all of this happened because of the anti enders, all post EC pro enders should be thanking them.
Oh and your Normandy Crash theory was ridiculous, all your ideas are silly.

That post is full of shameless lies.

The only thing anti-enders did - is promotion of ME3 ending hate on BSN. They did nothing to help. They wanted Normandy crash scene to be removed, they wanted Old Man and a Kid scene to be removed. They wanted Crucible to be removed. They wanted the Catalyst to be removed. They wanted the ending to be completely remade. And they wanted to sabotage each and every support thread they see.

...BioWare fan base clearly needs some more refreshing. The sooner - the better.

Modifié par Seival, 05 janvier 2013 - 06:35 .

[No_MSG]

Seival wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

Seival wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

It's been almost a year and people are STILL screaming about ME3's ending. It's not without good reason either. That just goes to show you how bad it really is....

And there are also a lot of people who liked the ending. We (pro-enders) are not screaming about this. Because unlike vocal minority, we are reasonable and constructive. And this is one of the reasons why BioWare listen to our concerns and suggestions about the game, and ignore vocal minority.

Bioware never listened to your concerns.
You never even wanted clarity, you liked the ending, we got clarity that was useless and you liked the extra clarity we got.
All the questions that were answered(not many were answered) in DLC were more or less basic questions from before ME3.

You should be thanking Anti enders for getting Bioware to do something that helped you.

Not true.

Original ending was too blurry. Yes, eventually I liked even the original ending (and that was before EC). But also I took part in some discussions about original ending interpretations. Created some support threads. I talked about my vision of ideas behind the ending a lot.

Most constructive discussions were overflowed by vocal anti-enders, who couldn't tell anything constructive and just wanted support/discussion thread to be closed. Anti-enders were only an abuse. They are still an abuse. But regardless, BioWare noticed most of constructive concerns and ideas. They understood which questions should be answered, and how.

Example:
The most popular concern among Control ending supporters was "how Shepard can Control the Reapers if she is dead?". People in Control ending support thread discussed that matter through tens of pages. Initially, I was sure that Shepard will become the new Catalyst, but some people thought Shepard just gives Reapers final order to "go away" and then dies. There were also other opinions... It's clear that BioWare noticed that discussion, and EC adressed all questions discussed in that thread.

One more example:
A well-known (and hated by many anti-enders) Normandy Crash support thread was literally attacked by anti-enders. Even off-topic image spam was used. Anti-enders wanted the scene to be removed, and they wanted the thread to be closed. I wanted the scene to remain in game, and I wanted it to be used to explain that Mass Relay network wasn't destroyed forever. Eventually, the scene remained in game, and BioWare addressed my concern - showed that Mass Relay network wasn't destroyed forever, but not in the way discribed in the theory.



...BioWare listens to constructive discussions and notice constructive concerns/ideas. This is just fact. And they will never do something stupid to please vocal minority, which can only scream and sabotage support threads.

Honestly, it's both sides.  I can't count how many threads I've read that go something like "Here's a list of all the reasons the ending blows donkey balls."  Then the pro-ending douche bag brigade parachutes in with "LOL VOCAL MINORITY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE ENDINGS NOOB!'

I also can't count how many threads I've read that go something like "Here's a list of all the reason the ending kicks major walrus ass!"  Then the anti-ending douche bag patrol tandem parasails in with "LOL YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING IDIOT!"

It makes me so sad reading these threads where one side is just completely crapped on.  Most of the anti-enders still on this forum still have hope for Bioware.  I'm still here, and occasionally post, because I hope the Mass Effect team is reading these threads, and takes into account what's being said.  Mass Effect 3 is finished for me.  No amount of DLC, or even an expansion, can make ME3 worth playing for me.  All I have left to do is give voice to my hopes for the next.

TL;DR - Both sides have douche bags, and I can't count.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

One more example:
A well-known (and hated by many anti-enders) Normandy Crash support thread was literally attacked by anti-enders. Even off-topic image spam was used. Anti-enders wanted the scene to be removed, and they wanted the thread to be closed. I wanted the scene to remain in game, and I wanted it to be used to explain that Mass Relay network wasn't destroyed forever. Eventually, the scene remained in game, and BioWare addressed my concern - showed that Mass Relay network wasn't destroyed forever, but not in the way discribed in the theory.

That thread absolutely deserved to be spammed.

...BioWare listens to constructive discussions and notice constructive concerns/ideas. This is just fact. And they will never do something stupid to please vocal minority, which can only scream and sabotage support threads.

What do you call the Extended Cut? 

[Seival]

No_MSG wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is finished for me.  No amount of DLC, or even an expansion, can make ME3 worth playing for me.  All I have left to do is give voice to my hopes for the next.

If ME3 is really finished for you, then please, at least leave ME3 Story discussion forum already.

[The Night Mammoth]

Paulomedi wrote...

Wild Seival uses RELAY TEST THEORY

It doesn't affect Night Mammoth!

Night Mammoth uses LOGIC

It's super effective!

The only thing more effective against Seival theories is 60's Spiderman. 

[Seival]

Paulomedi wrote...

Wild Seival uses RELAY TEST THEORY

It doesn't affect Night Mammoth!

Night Mammoth uses LOGIC

It's super effective!

You know, everyone who hates the ending have huge problems with logic. They can't even see logic behind the Catalyst thoughts and actions, while the Catalyst's logic is not too hard to understand (no matter if you like what it did or not).

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

Paulomedi wrote...

Wild Seival uses RELAY TEST THEORY

It doesn't affect Night Mammoth!

Night Mammoth uses LOGIC

It's super effective!

You know, everyone who hates the ending have huge problems with logic. They can't even see logic behind the Catalyst thoughts and actions, while the Catalyst's logic is not too hard to understand (no matter if you like what it did or not).

There is no logic behind what the Catalyst says. 

Logic implies reason was used in conjunction with evidence to come to a conclusion. 

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The only thing more effective against Seival theories is 60's Spiderman.

You know, "Spiderman" is the only argument you can offer. Never seen you posting anything constructive on BSN (no matter in my thread or any other).

EDIT: And here is a fresh prove that I'm right:

The Night Mammoth wrote...

There is no logic behind what the Catalyst says.

Modifié par Seival, 05 janvier 2013 - 07:09 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Seival wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is finished for me.  No amount of DLC, or even an expansion, can make ME3 worth playing for me.  All I have left to do is give voice to my hopes for the next.

If ME3 is really finished for you, then please, at least leave ME3 Story discussion forum already.

Maybe you should leave? You have a game you enjoy playing, go play it.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 05 janvier 2013 - 07:06 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The only thing more effective against Seival theories is 60's Spiderman.

You know, "Spiderman" is the only argument you can offer.

Completely untrue, I've used the Rustle Your Jimmies Gorilla argument many times to great effect. 

Never seen you posting anything constructive on BSN (no matter in my thread or any other).

I don't think you're the best person to judge how constructive someone's posts are, Mr Triple Synthesis Theory. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 05 janvier 2013 - 07:13 .

[Seival]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is finished for me.  No amount of DLC, or even an expansion, can make ME3 worth playing for me.  All I have left to do is give voice to my hopes for the next.

If ME3 is really finished for you, then please, at least leave ME3 Story discussion forum already.

Maybe you should leave? You have a game you enjoy playing, go play it.

Only after I'll be sure that all haters/whiners finally left, and will never come back.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is finished for me.  No amount of DLC, or even an expansion, can make ME3 worth playing for me.  All I have left to do is give voice to my hopes for the next.

If ME3 is really finished for you, then please, at least leave ME3 Story discussion forum already.

Maybe you should leave? You have a game you enjoy playing, go play it.

Only after I'll be sure that all haters/whiners finally left, and will never come back.

Can I join this worthy Crusade, King Richard? 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 05 janvier 2013 - 07:12 .

[No_MSG]

Seival wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is finished for me.  No amount of DLC, or even an expansion, can make ME3 worth playing for me.  All I have left to do is give voice to my hopes for the next.

If ME3 is really finished for you, then please, at least leave ME3 Story discussion forum already.

Why do you hate Bioware so much?  I hate Mass Effect 3, but I still talk my friends into buying 1 and 2.  I bought a friend Mass Effect on the Steam sale last week.  I'd like to buy Mass Effect 4 when it comes out.

The problem is, if Mass Effect 3 is an idication of where the Mass Effect series is going, I really don't want want to play the next one.  And I want to let the Mass Effect team to know where I, as a fan, feel the went right, and where they went wrong.  Telling me to leave the forum because I don't love the game is silly.

[Fifmut]

Paulomedi wrote...

Seival uses PURE NONSENSE

It doesn't affect Night Mammoth!

Night Mammoth uses MOCKERY

Seival is confused!

Lol, thanks for the commentary. Makes Seival's usual posts even funnier.

No_MSG wrote...

Seival wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is finished for me.  No amount of DLC, or even an expansion, can make ME3 worth playing for me.  All I have left to do is give voice to my hopes for the next.

If ME3 is really finished for you, then please, at least leave ME3 Story discussion forum already.

Telling me to leave the forum because I don't love the game is silly.

Seival is always silly, what do you expect?

Modifié par Fifmut, 05 janvier 2013 - 07:20 .