212 réponses à ce sujet

[RoundedPlanet88]

born2beagator wrote...

The geth were fine for me until they "fixed" the combat drone

Try three of them from sperate directions on platinum, its ROFLSTUN...ROFLSTUN....ROFLSTUN....Dead, and no way to actually avoid/dodge/missle/anything.

[MKH2K9]

So there is a name for the game mechanic that renders you helpless in anything but Bronze difficulty. Excellent. I hate it.

[Dark Tlaloc]

I know I'm a little late to the discussion, but having been playing a lot of Geth on gold the last few days, I figured I'd chime in.

I've been playing the Drell Assassin a lot, so I'm used to flying around the map, and I'm NOT used to being hit much. That being said, the way stunlock is instituted with the Geth faction is a little bit much. Aside from the Pyro, every single unit can stun you, and can continue to stun you over and over. The Prime alone has 3 different attacks that can stun (stagger of his melee, combat drone, and his pulse blasts). I've been stopped mid shot from firing a Recon Mine, which cancels the entire action, even though it shouldn't (just ask Geth Hunters about how actions aren't cancelled when you're hit)

I don't like stunlock,and I think it's cheap, but above all else, the fact that you're not able to even finish actions when you're stunned is ridiculous. You can essentially pull the trigger of your weapon, be hit by a stunning attack, and your weapon's projectile is just canceled out, which isn't right.

A final sidenote: I've seen people on this thread argue that skill in avoiding being stunlocked is part of the challenge, which is fine, except for the fact that your teammates can also inadvertently cause you to be hit as well (you get hit by the crossfire). So while in a perfect world skill will get you through, that's not always the case.

Either way, stunlock sucks.

[NikkoJT]

A bit back in this thread, someone used a "juggling" move in Tekken as an example. Go find it if you want more context.

My response (admittedly without having played Tekken) is that the player "juggling" actually had to work to achieve that, and the other guy had opportunities to stop him. In ME3, the AI just goes "NOPE STAGGERED" and that's it. And it can do that as much as it likes. That's what's wrong.

And as a direct answer to the OP: Geth stunlock is complete bravo-sierra. Especially Hunters and Bombers. And Rocket Troopers. And Primes...yeah.
The Scion's stagger cannon could use some work too. It's snipey, a one-burst-kill, and once the first shot hits, you can't avoid the other two: non-dodging but stagger-immune classes can't get out of the way, and dodging but--
NikkoJT was taken down by Geth Prime

[Pee Jae]

Hell, it's not just the geth, it's scions too. I was in a Bronze (yes, Bronze) match today. Got an upload hack (3 of 4) right where you initially spawn on Glacier. 2 scions and a praetorian beat the living sh^t out of us. Rez, medigel, rez, medigel, rinse repeat for half of the time on the clock until I could finally pull a cobra and take them out. It was stunlock hell. On freaking Bronze.

Also, if the geth were buffed to stop FBW farming, why are they still buffed now that the map has been altered to make that farming strategy impossible?

Modifié par t_skwerl, 06 janvier 2013 - 05:20 .

[Beerfish]

My beef with stunlock is that you have zero chance to get out of trouble if you go down and then medigel. If there is more than one stun enemy nearby as in a hunter and a geth bomber you are totally f''d if you are very lucky you might be able to escape with the use of about 3 medigels and 4 if you have to take out the rocket launcher.

[capn233]

Yes, it is the most fun you can have in this game.

I am pretty sure everyone has agreed that Geth stunlock is the most fun thing in Mass Effect each time someone makes another Geth stun thread.

[mpompeo27]

Dunvi wrote...

N7Kopper wrote...

Scathen wrote...

Yup, that's a pretty silly argument, since in most fighting games your opponent isn't allowed to hit you while you're down or getting up.

In most fighting games based off of real sports, knocking your opponent down is the objective. You have no more reason to attack them when they're downed.

But take Tekken, and it's juggling mechanic. When you're being juggled, you're helpless. Utterly. There are no "break free" teching mechanics like in some beat-em-ups, no directional influence like Smash Bros., nothing. You eat those hits until your opponent messes up, their character literally cannot chain the combo any more, or you die. This mechanic is the unique draw for Tekken fans that make them play it, rather than, say, BlazBlue or Street Fighter.

One person made the argument that "taking control away from the player is bad"
...If I don't have control, how am I to be punished for my mistakes? If I always have control, then being killed will become invincibility time, where I constantly attack my foes in ghost form. Of course, this is appeal ad absurdium, but you see the point, surely? And similarly, taking control from the player's enemy is good game design? How? Just because this is a shooter, we shouldn't get status problems like any other RPG?

Being stunlocked is not fun. But if we are to remove stuns, we should remove all stuns. AKA: No more Falcon staggers for you, and if you give a Centurion the krogan backhand, he should just stand there, and shockstick you, rather than being sent flying.

There are also arguments that people who like stunlock because it actually punishes your mistakes - standing out of cover in a sight line, not dodge rolling at the right time, picking Shadow on a laggy host, are elitist. That gives those arguments credibility. You're saying the holders of those arguments are good at the game. If you don't like stunlock, that makes it annoying. I do not like stunlock. It does my freakin' head in. But I can, independant of irrational anger, realise a good game mechanic when I see it.

All of the factions have some stun mechanics, but the only one that gets people raging is geth. Why? Because of the amount. I agree, some amount of stun/stagger is a method of punishing you for effing up. However, the amount of stun in geth isn't punishment for effing up when you take into account the spawn system (I must be going crazy because I just got stunned by the prime I carefully killed from cover - oh, you just respawned right behind me. NM), and being stunned while rezzing is doubling up on an already doubled punishment - not only were you dead (which is punishment) but you spent a consumable (which is a punishment).

So I almost agree with you. It's not a bad game mechanic in and of itself. It is, however, badly applied.

This.

[MP-Ryan]

A number of game reviewers, among them Yahtzee of ZP fame, regularly make the point that removing player control is a poor game mechanic, and they're right.

That is not to say *some* stuns are a bad idea. The problem with the Geth is that literally every unit has a stunning attack (even the Pyro flame will stun now). And then they added the bomber, and gave it a taser as well as grenades. I'm sorry, but that tazer is far more dangerous than the grenades - it will stun a krogan. And now the drone not only has an attack, it's a long-range staggering attack.

The best thing the developers could do is remove the taser from the bomber, remove the incinerate from the drone, and give the drone the tazer, then chain it to the Prime's hip. And while they're at it, make the Hunters obey the rules of the game and prevent them from firing while staggered. The last change is a nerf to enemy melee range - I have dodged, on-host, been 10 feet away, and the effing elbow of doom still connects and staggers me.

[mybudgee]

I got it! Give us a gear item that allows Krogan/Batarians to REMOVE their armor and thus dodge & roll! Problem solved!

HUH? huh?!?

Modifié par mybudgee, 06 janvier 2013 - 06:12 .

[CitizenThom]

For stagger-lock stacking advocates... do you think stagger lock should be added as a feature to the Collectors, Cerberus, and Reapers factions?

[greghorvath]

I know I am weird, but getting a taste of our own medicine is far from unjust. The player stuns and stunlocks almost everything in the game. Having to play differently against a faction is a boon and not a bane.

[greghorvath]

CitizenThom wrote...

For stagger-lock stacking advocates... do you think stagger lock should be added as a feature to the Collectors, Cerberus, and Reapers factions?

of course not. Different factions should feel different and should require different attitudes.

[CitizenThom]

greghorvath wrote...

I know I am weird, but getting a taste of our own medicine is far from unjust. The player stuns and stunlocks almost everything in the game. Having to play differently against a faction is a boon and not a bane.

Not for more than half a second, and that half second can only happen once every three seconds with powers... or with a two second delay with regards to the Scorpion and at least a one second delay on a Falcon.

[DcIhNaGv3z]

No

Game-play is when the game player provides input into the game to produce some output. The interaction of player input & game output is what produces the "fun". Getting stunlocked or staggered intrinsically removes fun from the game, because the game player is temporarily not allowed to actually play.

The only time player input should be severed, is in a game-over state. Stunlock and stagger are a god awful game mechanic.

[CitizenThom]

greghorvath wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

For stagger-lock stacking advocates... do you think stagger lock should be added as a feature to the Collectors, Cerberus, and Reapers factions?

of course not. Different factions should feel different and should require different attitudes.

But stagger lock is harmless, what difference would it make?

[Scathen]

N7Kopper wrote...

Scathen wrote some stuff...

In most fighting games based off of real sports, knocking your opponent down is the objective. You have no more reason to attack them when they're downed.

But take Tekken, and it's juggling mechanic. When you're being juggled, you're helpless. Utterly. There are no "break free" teching mechanics like in some beat-em-ups, no directional influence like Smash Bros., nothing. You eat those hits until your opponent messes up, their character literally cannot chain the combo any more, or you die. This mechanic is the unique draw for Tekken fans that make them play it, rather than, say, BlazBlue or Street Fighter.

One person made the argument that "taking control away from the player is bad"
...If I don't have control, how am I to be punished for my mistakes? If I always have control, then being killed will become invincibility time, where I constantly attack my foes in ghost form. Of course, this is appeal ad absurdium, but you see the point, surely? And similarly, taking control from the player's enemy is good game design? How? Just because this is a shooter, we shouldn't get status problems like any other RPG?

Being stunlocked is not fun. But if we are to remove stuns, we should remove all stuns. AKA: No more Falcon staggers for you, and if you give a Centurion the krogan backhand, he should just stand there, and shockstick you, rather than being sent flying.

There are also arguments that people who like stunlock because it actually punishes your mistakes - standing out of cover in a sight line, not dodge rolling at the right time, picking Shadow on a laggy host, are elitist. That gives those arguments credibility. You're saying the holders of those arguments are good at the game. If you don't like stunlock, that makes it annoying. I do not like stunlock. It does my freakin' head in. But I can, independant of irrational anger, realise a good game mechanic when I see it.

I wasn't referring to a game-winning knockdown, and the sorts of games that provide a means for lengthy combos usually also offer means to avoid or escape them.  Status problems in other RPGs usually have their own ways of being countered - equips that prevent them, potions or abilities that cure them.  We have nothing that grants stunlock or stagger immunity, even temporarily on most classes.  The only equivalent is certain classes having an 'immunity' to being staggered innately.

Enemy attacks should have an obvious effect on your character - it'd be stupid for something like that giant plasma cannon the Geth Prime carries to just plink your shields, but why must my character suddenly stand up looking dumb if he/she gets caught by a blast trying to go into cover?   The idea behind stuns isn't bad - make enemy attacks have an effect on players!  Let us get that they have some power behind them!  Its implementation is, however...awkward.  And do I know the best way to improve it?  Heck no.  But there are plenty of interesting suggestions here and elsewhere on the subject.

In some ways, I'd almost rather be knocked down for a moment.  I might actually fall behind some cover and have the next few hits miss.

Also, I'd never advocate removing staggers if it meant some of our weapons had less effect on enemies, for similar reasons as above - when you hit something, you want that thing to react!

[FlowCytometry]

I luv it when I'm playing a game w/ someone beside me randomly batting my controller to the ground.

Great game design 101.

[Silvair]

Yet another reason I love the Destroyers shoulder cannon. Stagger enemies away as i'm rezzing so they can't stunlock me.

[fayk_id]

the easiest way to beat geth on gold is melee spec'ed batarian brawler

yet even with this kit, your heavy melee gets interrupted by stunlock

this is why i wouldn't farm gold with it alone or duo. there must be a team to get you out of those situations

[Alastor13]

what is not to love about being staggered to death by hunters/bombers?
or what about when 2 primes synchronize their shots so you get a barrage of tasty plasma of doom?

thats why I always bring a paladin/destroyer to geth matches, i would like to use squishier classes but it means a death sentence on open maps like hydra, Giant or Rio

kinda funny since Geth mastery is the only faction mastery i've completed twice

Modifié par Alastor13, 06 janvier 2013 - 09:15 .

[GallowsPole]

I think we all agree the Geth are stun lock happy and cheap. I'm definitely not arguing that. The problem with most suggestions on this board, including buffing/nerfing stuff, is to try and fix the symptoms and not the disease. In this case the Geth need fixing. Not to give characters stagger or stun lock immunity.

[greghorvath]

CitizenThom wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

I know I am weird, but getting a taste of our own medicine is far from unjust. The player stuns and stunlocks almost everything in the game. Having to play differently against a faction is a boon and not a bane.

Not for more than half a second, and that half second can only happen once every three seconds with powers... or with a two second delay with regards to the Scorpion and at least a one second delay on a Falcon.

Let me put it this way: [1] How many times has player stagger helped finished a game? [2] How many times has enemy stagger stopped a player from finishing a game?

Think about it. If the answer to 1 does not make the answer 2 look like a ridiculously low number the player has made a wrong choice of difficulty.

I do not understand your other question about stagger lock. If it doesn't make a difference, why do you bring it up?


 

[Shezo]

Nope, stunlock is not fun, just as not fun are -- running out of ammo, getting shot at, sitting in cover waiting for shields to go up. dying, suffer through abilities cooldown etc.
Should we remove all this stuff for more fun ?