212 réponses à ce sujet

[GallowsPole]

In case peeps are interested in knowing, adrenaline amps on characters that cant dodge, works wonders against stun lock.

This has been a PSA by your friend GallowsPole.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Dunno.. stunlock seems pretty fake to me. In that moment when you're stunned, you can't do anything. You're not reacting to something, you're not avoiding something, you're not aiming for anything -- you're stunned. The game has removed your ability to act for the soul purpose of inflicting damage on you without you being able to counter it.

Think of it this way -- if the snipers in ME1 didn't have lasers, they'd insta-kill you from across the map and you'd be like WTF? That's not fair, there's no real challenge there. Its fake. Stunlock is pretty much that, only other things do the killing.

A counter argument you can easily make is that the challenge in avoiding stunlock is to not get hit. And that does carry a margin of merit, but insufficient to be anything more than meh. A Prime can hit you from across the map with 100% accuracy through a gap no wider than your hand.

Stunlock is a fraud, a torment. Something the player has no real defense against -- it has no place in anything that calls itself fun.

[GallowsPole]

Well maybe Ive been lucky, but Ive never been stun locked by a single unit to the point where I couldnt get into cover or sprint out of the way.

[Someone With Mass]

hostaman wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

Even better, die, someone rezzes you, stun lock by what killed you the first time, someone then rezzes you, stun locked and killed, someone rezzes you, stun locked and killed, finally allowed to bleed out. Good times.

I never understood why BW didn't dial in a 5 second invincibility when this happens.  Similar to driving games where your car is basically a ghost for a few seconds when you rejoin to avoid smacking another car.

Doesn't help that the camera is pointing towards the ground so you'll have no way of knowing if there's a Phantom/Brute/Banshee etc nearby unless someone on the team tells you, which is not guaranteed to always happen.

[Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout]

Memmahkth wrote...

Is keeping yourself out of the situations where you are stunlocked challenging or skillful?

Being paralysed is not fun, however keeping yourself out of those situations and playing well could be considered fun.

Not possible. Played Batguard on U/U. Got london geth. I rage missiled all 5 missiles in wave 11 because rage buildup during the previous ten waves. Biotic cha... wait, stun. Ok, but now! BIO CHAARRR, wait, stun... ok, but there we go! BIO CHARGGEEEE... oh, wait. Triple hit, yeah right. Now, there is a drone... there is the hunters plasma shotgun... missile to the face... down. Thanks for playing.

[Alijah Green]

Stardusk wrote...

Memmahkth wrote...

Is keeping yourself out of the situations where you are stunlocked challenging or skillful?

Being paralysed is not fun, however keeping yourself out of those situations and playing well could be considered fun.

Yes, we who do not like stunlock are all bad players. Good argument.

Facts are facts, some people
don't like them.... It's called stick and move, stop holding the line in one
area or you will be surround.  You should only carry medigel transmitter
with so many butt hurt threads

Build better and you will
kill faster

[Someone With Mass]

Alijah Green wrote...

Facts are facts, some people
don't like them.... It's called stick and move, stop holding the line in one
area or you will be surround.  You should only carry medigel transmitter
with so many butt hurt threads

Build better and you will
kill faster

Oh yeah, that sounds like a great plan. Running around in the open with little way of knowing from which way the enemy will come from. Let me know how that plan works out for you when you're getting shot at by two geth Primes.

[Auld Wulf]

Eh. I prefer stunlock to a move that can instantly kill you before telegraphing the move (yay lag); by which I mean sync kills. I find the geth easy compared to the other factions most of the time I've played, to be honest, despite the difficulty. I don't quite understand why people want to make the easiest faction easier. Then again, this might just be my hatred of sync kills talking.

[Heldarion]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Eh. I prefer stunlock to a move that can instantly kill you before telegraphing the move (yay lag); by which I mean sync kills. I find the geth easy compared to the other factions most of the time I've played, to be honest, despite the difficulty. I don't quite understand why people want to make the easiest faction easier. Then again, this might just be my hatred of sync kills talking.

Eh, no.

You can play around both, except there's a big difference. Once you misstep into a sync kill, you die and you deserve it fully for being careless.

When you walk into a stunlock... may god have mercy on your soul and your consumables and the Geth that will eventually eat 5 rockets in a matter of seconds.

[K_Os2]

Nah, I'll take sync kills over stunlock every single time, sync kills are stupid easy to avoid barring magnet grabs. Nowadays when I get sync'd it's a result of me being either stupid, cocky, or a bad team member being an ass. Stunlock you can only avoid so much of it, and there is no minimum time between stuns which I believe is the problem, .5-1sec of stun immunity after being stunned would e swell.

[Grundle47]

I think some people are missing the real question being asked in this thread.

The issue is not "is stun-lock fair/challenging/avoidable". The question is whether or not it adds in any way to the "fun" of the game.
Challenge does make for fun. But I think there's a difference between something being challenging and being just plain frustrating. A few people have brought up the point that as a general rule when making a game, anything that takes all control away from player usually results in frustration and negative play experience.

I think you need to ask yourself not "can I handle stunlocks", but rather "would I miss them if they were eliminated from the game?". I know I would miss stuff like sync-kills and the ease with which enemies lock onto me. That all adds a level of challenge I can play with.I do not feel the same way about stun lock.

[K_Os2]

It's been largely established already that answer is a no, and at this point we are merely stating why it isn't fun or think it isn't fun.

[GordianKnot42]

The Sin wrote...

It's the same with sync-kills...Stupid game mechanic that takes away control from players...Taking control away from player is a bad thing...

I'm actually more or less okay with the sync-kill thing. At least you know which enemies can do them, so you can adjust your strategy accordingly (as long as the sync-kill tells are functioning properly... ha ha).

But with stun-locks, they're way too frequent and way too debilitating. I mean, a Prime peeps you through the tiniest hole, thus guaranteeing you'll hold still until all three of his shots have found their mark. By the time you regain control the Geth Trooper hits you with one bullet and you're down. I would classify this as Not Fun.

[Blitzkrieg_33]

Grundle47 wrote...

I think some people are missing the real question being asked in this thread.

The issue is not "is stun-lock fair/challenging/avoidable". The question is whether or not it adds in any way to the "fun" of the game.
Challenge does make for fun. But I think there's a difference between something being challenging and being just plain frustrating. A few people have brought up the point that as a general rule when making a game, anything that takes all control away from player usually results in frustration and negative play experience.

I think you need to ask yourself not "can I handle stunlocks", but rather "would I miss them if they were eliminated from the game?". I know I would miss stuff like sync-kills and the ease with which enemies lock onto me. That all adds a level of challenge I can play with.I do not feel the same way about stun lock.

Perhaps if there was a window before and after stunlocks before you could be stunlocked again? Giving you a chance to take cover, etc.

I feel the actual mechanism is challenging. But I also do agree that it is a bit spammed.

[Alijah Green]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Alijah Green wrote...

Facts are facts, some people
don't like them.... It's called stick and move, stop holding the line in one
area or you will be surround.  You should only carry medigel transmitter
with so many butt hurt threads

Build better and you will
kill faster

Oh yeah, that sounds like a great plan. Running around in the open with little way of knowing from which way the enemy will come from. Let me know how that plan works out for you when you're getting shot at by two geth Primes.

Crush the spawn move on to
the next one move on to the next one.  Standing around waiting will always
put you in these kind of situation.  If you don't like CQC bring a Volus
Merc.  It's the player’s strategy that is the problem, your will not to
adapt your gameplay style

[Grundle47]

Alijah Green wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Alijah Green wrote...

Facts are facts, some people
don't like them.... It's called stick and move, stop holding the line in one
area or you will be surround.  You should only carry medigel transmitter
with so many butt hurt threads

Build better and you will
kill faster

Oh yeah, that sounds like a great plan. Running around in the open with little way of knowing from which way the enemy will come from. Let me know how that plan works out for you when you're getting shot at by two geth Primes.

Crush the spawn move on to
the next one move on to the next one.  Standing around waiting will always
put you in these kind of situation.  If you don't like CQC bring a Volus
Merc.  It's the player’s strategy that is the problem, your will not to
adapt your gameplay style

I don't think that's the problem. I know Bombers are gonna stun me. I work around them and that's fine. The problem is that the stun is only noticable when it's making you tear your hair out in frustration. I don't want to see the bombers have their only close quarters attack removed, but it does need to be tweaked so it is effective without being frustrating for the 99% of players who aren't experts at avoiding stunlock.

[ValorOfArms777]

It's the fact stun is frequently initiated many time over...it's not about camping or running around..it's the fact it's once you get hit you are going to get battered dead

[DeityMatrix]

Read through this entire thread and......I agree with GallowsPole.

I almost exclusively play Geth or Reapers. Geth are the easiest faction to fight. Long range, tech enemies. Reapers are the next easiest, only slightly more difficult because of "4 Banshee grab madness" separating and killing teammates.

Sync kills punish you worse than stun locks, but stunlocking over and over can happen, if you screw up. I regularly play with one friend on PUGs and the only time "stunlock" by Geth becomes an issue is when the randoms suck at playing. Basically, it is not nearly as catastrophic as everyone makes it out to be.

[CitizenThom]

greghorvath wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

Do not be stupid and do not take me for one. Do you want seeker swarm like units or superlazors to be introduced into every faction? Stupid question is stupid.

You see, I think Seeker Swarms need less health, and that Praetorian lasers should be more predictable in what they penetrate and where they shoot from. Both need balancing on the Collectors. So it's obvious I don't want to see these things on other factions.

On the other hand, you don't think there is anything broken about the Geth stacking staggers indefinately. Which is a (stupid) point of view warranting a (stupid) question. See I can use the word stupid too, but using the word stupid doesn't make you smart.

Yes, I see you are advocating difficulty nerfs, which could be handled in a much easier way in game with a few clicks. Stunlock requires you to play differently than how you would play against reapers for example. Having to play differently against different factions is good. Introducing features that would make handling different factions (even  more) similar is not good as it would make having different factions pointless.

Very proficient usage of the word "stupid". Good job.

I'm sorry if I appear standoffish or something, but I have written these things down so many times already and I really can't see the point of doing it any more. I think I'm done.

Stunlock doesn't involve 'strategy'. I too have adressed this too many times, but every time someone wants to post nonsense about stunlock being a skill issue, a tactical issue, etc etc et the words need to be said again.

Playing around enemies that can interrupt or stagger a player briefly... yeah that gives a unique flavor to the combat. Playing around enemies who can perpetually stagger you, you're not doing a lot of playing, your not doing any strategizing... you aren't doing anything besides watching the screen and thinking, "when does the game start?"

I've completed geth mastery three times now, so no, the Geth aren't unbeatable, but there are better ways to increase difficulty besides having one enemy paralyzing you just long enough for the next to paralyze you for the next, and the next and the next. It's plainly broken, it doesn't belong in an entertaining game. Sure, it's great for that small niche market of masochists, but for the majority of the gaming community it's utterly broken.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 09 janvier 2013 - 04:05 .

[Schneidend]

This is pretty much a universal truth in games. Hell, in D&D I never allow the "stun" status effect to actually be "you lose a turn." I usually just make it a hindrance, not an outright loss of control. Even in cases where an enemy mind controls a player, I will often just tell that player to do "something awful" to one of their allies, still allowing them to roll their dice and make the decisions their character would.

[CitizenThom]

DeityMatrix wrote...

Read through this entire thread and......I agree with GallowsPole.

I almost exclusively play Geth or Reapers. Geth are the easiest faction to fight. Long range, tech enemies. Reapers are the next easiest, only slightly more difficult because of "4 Banshee grab madness" separating and killing teammates.

Sync kills punish you worse than stun locks, but stunlocking over and over can happen, if you screw up. I regularly play with one friend on PUGs and the only time "stunlock" by Geth becomes an issue is when the randoms suck at playing. Basically, it is not nearly as catastrophic as everyone makes it out to be.

So you're saying that a game design that has a mechanic that makes new players a heavier burden on the possibilities of mission success is a good thing?

I think it's bad game design to make the game cheat in such a way that it punishes new players to a greater degree than it affects veteran players. I think it's a bad game mechanic if it means that veteran players don't play with newer players.

And you are right, stun lock becomes more noticeable when you aren't playing with either veteran players or people on your friends list. But even then, all it takes is a spite spawn at the wrong time, and permanent stunlock will be experienced by even the most capable player. There is no working around being permanently staggered until you die once it starts.

As has been said by others... 'a' stagger is expected. It's the abiliy of enemies without much effort to permanently keep a player staggered that is what's broken about the Geth.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 09 janvier 2013 - 04:06 .

[greghorvath]

CitizenThom wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

Do not be stupid and do not take me for one. Do you want seeker swarm like units or superlazors to be introduced into every faction? Stupid question is stupid.

You see, I think Seeker Swarms need less health, and that Praetorian lasers should be more predictable in what they penetrate and where they shoot from. Both need balancing on the Collectors. So it's obvious I don't want to see these things on other factions.

On the other hand, you don't think there is anything broken about the Geth stacking staggers indefinately. Which is a (stupid) point of view warranting a (stupid) question. See I can use the word stupid too, but using the word stupid doesn't make you smart.

Yes, I see you are advocating difficulty nerfs, which could be handled in a much easier way in game with a few clicks. Stunlock requires you to play differently than how you would play against reapers for example. Having to play differently against different factions is good. Introducing features that would make handling different factions (even  more) similar is not good as it would make having different factions pointless.

Very proficient usage of the word "stupid". Good job.

I'm sorry if I appear standoffish or something, but I have written these things down so many times already and I really can't see the point of doing it any more. I think I'm done.

Stunlock doesn't involve 'strategy'. I too have adressed this too many times, but every time someone wants to post nonsense about stunlock being a skill issue, a tactical issue, etc etc et the words need to be said again.

Playing around enemies that can interrupt or stagger a player briefly... yeah that gives a unique flavor to the combat. Playing around enemies who can perpetually stagger you, you're not doing a lot of playing, your not doing any strategizing... you aren't doing anything besides watching the screen and thinking, "when does the game start?"

I've completed geth mastery three times now, so no, the Geth aren't unbeatable, but there are better ways to increase difficulty besides having one enemy paralyzing you just long enough for the next to paralyze you for the next, and the next and the next. It's plainly broken, it doesn't belong in an entertaining game. Sure, it's great for that small niche market of masochists, but for the majority of the gaming community it's utterly broken.

In case it doesn't involve strategy, how come I don't have a problem with it? How come most of my regular playing buddies don't have problems with it? Stunlock itself does not involve strategy. Avoiding it, on the other hand, does.

Unknown games threw me in 3 geth games yesterday. Two with the GI and one with the slayer. I got stunlocked once. Once and that's it. And even this was because I got cocky. 20 minute matches, so there must have been something more than "watching the screen and thinking, when does the game start".

You got me with that masochist part, tho. Guilty as charged.

Modifié par greghorvath, 09 janvier 2013 - 08:37 .

[fiendishchicken]

I am tired of damn stunlocks almost immediately after being revived (taking immediate damage is pretty bad too).

[Shadow Storm]

I agree on the one hand that you need to adapt to the Geth tactics as some of the more adept players always love to state. On the other hand it seems a little over the top to have EVERY SINGLE UNIT bar troopers sporting stagger capability. (Assuming you don't count annoying whacks in the back of the head of course) When they added the bomber to counter campers it did seem like overkill to fix the combat turrets and making them stunlock every 2 seconds while chasing you to the ends of the Earth. Worst part is Geth speak of wanting to survive yet those annoying buggars have no fear of being shot.  lol

Modifié par Raiden Storm, 09 janvier 2013 - 05:42 .

[TerrorandLove]

I've been in a feeding frenzy before. Where all 4 people are locked in an endless cycle of reviving, getting stunned, and then dying. And the darn thing continues so long I had to just break out of it, hope I could use a healie before I get stunned again and drop a missile on the whole stinking mess.

AND WHY DID THEY MAKE THE BOMBERS SO SMALL!