98 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

Aedolon wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I actually disagree with the idea of 4 grenade users being tough...In fact, it should be EASIER tto keep supplied with 4 grenadiers than 1 grenade user on a map.

The problem is there's absolutely no coordination between the people....If there's a drell adept and you see him reave a spawn point, why is it that EVERYONE needs to toss in their own grenade?

The adept can easily clear that spawn by himself using just 1 grenade. but no...everyone wants to throw a grenade...

THIS is why there's a lack of grenades....

No. Every level can replenish grenades at a specific rate which does not depend on the amount of grenade users. On the other hand, grenades are an essential part of how grenade user deal damage to the enemy, so the need for grenades does depend on the amount of grenade users. It's simple matter of supply and demand. Supply is constant, demand is not.

This is a coop game where you are supposed to be working with your teammate...Apparently, bronze teaches bad habits since on bronze everything is so easy, you dont have to cooperate...Can just go on your own and do whatever...

If you see 2 ravagers with a couple of husks/cannibals coming though a tight area/spawn point, there's no need for EVERYONE to throw 2 grenades at the bloody thing which is what the problem is...

1 inferno and 1 frag grenade will easily clear the assorted trash away and thus, instead of 4 people each being down 2 grenades, you will have two people down 1 each...

Communication makes even Condor easy with 4 grenade users..

Modifié par Bleachrude, 05 janvier 2013 - 08:21 .

[Zjarcal]

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Frag Grenades, Arc Grenades, Lift Grenades all do decent damage and can save your ass in many situations.

Cluster Grenades, Inferno Grenades, Homing Grenades all do pityfull damage and need a bigger initial BIG BANG. Maybe then, people would want to use them more often aka 'would bang again.'

[Nitrocuban]

Amazing how easily a post becomes to long for most people to read and understand entirely.
Maybe I should add a tl;dr at the very beginning.

[TheWarofArt]

Aedolon wrote...

If I were in charge of things, this is what I'd do:

• Grenade Capacity V only gives 3 grenades
• All ammo boxes would be personal, you couldn't take other player's ammo, you would only see your own ammo in your own game
• Difficulty level would not affect ammo boxes (difficulty is already addressed by other means like enemy health)
• Finally I would adjust the ammo respawn times so the whole thing would be balanced again

One of the most frustrating things in this game is to play with another grenade-heavy player who (understandably) hogs all the grenades, which severely weakens your damage output. I have to run away from enemies to far off ammo boxes to keep my grenade supply intact if I don't want to use up all of my ammo packs.

I like this idea a lot, but if it isn't done right, grenade classes may easily outscore non-grenade classes. Another idea I had was regenerating grenades by 1 every 10 - 15 seconds if you had less than 3.

[Beerfish]

Have all the grenades you want, play the collectors on bronze on the wrong map with a bad objective and you will get your ass kicked as a bronze player.

[ValorOfArms777]

I think more lightly that grenades shouldn't really be downgraded or upgrade per difficulty nor should they be uneven per box

but instead always drop out a even 2 per box every 7 seconds and drop ammo every 3.5 seconds

for all boxes...period no matter the difficulty etc.

don't get me wrogn though grenade capacity is nifty but...you need to be the only grenade user to really get the great deal out of it

I like the +2 grenade on the Warfighter/SHock Trooper as it's really not over stepping a hard to refill back up boundry

Modifié par ValorOfArms777, 05 janvier 2013 - 09:24 .

[TheKillerAngel]

Aedolon wrote...

If I were in charge of things, this is what I'd do:

• Grenade Capacity V only gives 3 grenades
• All ammo boxes would be personal, you couldn't take other player's ammo, you would only see your own ammo in your own game
• Difficulty level would not affect ammo boxes (difficulty is already addressed by other means like enemy health)
• Finally I would adjust the ammo respawn times so the whole thing would be balanced again

Would grenade gear give power damage in addition to the decreased grenades? You can't have something with 5 ranks only giving 3 grenades.

Modifié par TheKillerAngel, 05 janvier 2013 - 09:29 .

[Charaxan]

Someone asked to outrank a drell adept with nades : I can play with in coop with an AA in gold. Warp+throw detonate on everything, everytime, without limitation whatsoever except interferences easily bypassed. The only reason the drell would have a better rank is if he just reave his momy hard after my warp so he takes the detonation bonuses. I think indeed grenades have huge dps capacity but the spawn limitation is quite annoying.

[LemurFromTheId]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

If I were in charge of things, this is what I'd do:

• Grenade Capacity V only gives 3 grenades
• All ammo boxes would be personal, you couldn't take other player's ammo, you would only see your own ammo in your own game
• Difficulty level would not affect ammo boxes (difficulty is already addressed by other means like enemy health)
• Finally I would adjust the ammo respawn times so the whole thing would be balanced again

Would grenade gear give power damage in addition to the decreased grenades? You can't have something with 5 ranks only giving 3 grenades.

Why not? Even if Rank II were the same as Rank I, it would still be one step closer to Rank III.

[FlowCytometry]

You! Stop saying BS! 

Grenade Capacity is absolutely not overpowered! 

It is grossly over-budgeted, though. All rank V gear is roughly equiv to a single rank 5-6 power evolve in budget (ex. 15% shield recharge evolve in fitness vs. Multicapacitor V; Dense Ammo V vs. R6 10% weapon dmg boost in training; 12-15% from rank V amps vs. 15-20% power boosts in R5 training, etc). Grenade Capacity V is 500% more capacity vs. 100-200% for most equiv R5 grenade trees, or 2.5-5x over-budget. Warfighter and Shock Troop V combine a R6-level weapon evolve w/ a grenade capacity that's also 1.5-3x over-budget.

People actually complained about grenades in general and pretty frequently before this gear was introduced many months ago. Sure most grenades got some buffs since then, and some maps got better ammo crates, but its pretty clear to me what factor contributed most to the grenades' rise in power overall.

Are grenades actually OP, though? I dunno; it could be fine if grenade gear is 'OP' where capacity evolves are 'UP', but I can say its not really well designed atm.

Oh Lord, not saying Bronze is to easy, I'm saying the balancing of grenade refills is totally retarded, it is even the reverse of what one would consider reasonable.

It's like leaving earlier for being late. Is that really so hard to comprehend?

Um, well some things have to stay the way they are to help create legitimate increases in difficulty

W/ power combos it makes sense to scale since combos take coordination and setup, and the concept of coordination should be rewarded on all difficulties. In addition, combo explosions are only boosted by a limited number of other factors vs. general powers (primer/detonator rank and any 'detonate' evolves- general power boosts do not affect them). Grenade spam is not analogous to this at all, and I'd rather it *not be tuned w/ difficulty (even then you start on a slippery slope- why not scale up everything else in this game?).

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 05 janvier 2013 - 09:53 .

[LemurFromTheId]

serialkicker wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

Frankly I think grenade capacity gear is a little OP. Most grenade users can have 4 grenades by default, with gear you can have 9, more than double (and with Thermal Clip Packs, which most peopla have plenty of, you can fill those five times per match). Compare that to weapon amp gear which gives you a measly +15% base damage bonus.

Grenade Capacity should give 3 grenades at V, but I guess people would complain there would be no difference between every rank.

I can't have 4 nades, but turret can **** 5 of them every few sec as well as Scion? I think not.

Could you rephrase that? I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Nitrocuban]

FlowCytometry wrote...
Um, well some things have to stay the way they are to help create legitimate increases in difficulty
W/ power combos it makes sense to scale since combos take coordination and setup and should be rewarded on all difficulties. In addition, combo explosions are only boosted by a limited number of other factors vs. general powers (primer/detonator rank and any 'detonate' evolves- general power boosts do not affect them). Grenade spam is not analogous to this at all, and I'd rather it *not be tuned w/ difficulty (even then you start on a slippery slope- why not scale up everything else in this game?).

Right, but you can't actually _spam_ grenades on higher difficulties or you run out of Thermal Clip Packs after wave 3. And trying to keep your grenades on stock is way harder than warp-throw-warp-throw for 20min and nothing else tbh.
People are right, grenades are powerfull, but only cause they have high peak damage as they have no cooldown.
Once you run out of nades you are pretty much f***ed.
I really don't see why grenades refill faster on lower difficulties, it just makes no sense at all.

[OldeGrim]

Zjarcal wrote...

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Frag Grenades, Arc Grenades, Lift Grenades all do decent damage and can save your ass in many situations.

Cluster Grenades, Inferno Grenades, Homing Grenades all do pityfull damage and need a bigger initial BIG BANG. Maybe then, people would want to use them more often aka 'would bang again.'

Ya WHAT?! I don't know the exact numbers but Inferno grenades probably have one of the best DOT effects in the game. Not to mentioned the setting up for FE's etc.

More over Cluster grenades are quite powerful. As are homing grenades...

Modifié par OldeGrim, 05 janvier 2013 - 09:58 .

[Harbingerpromo]

OldeGrim wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Frag Grenades, Arc Grenades, Lift Grenades all do decent damage and can save your ass in many situations.

Cluster Grenades, Inferno Grenades, Homing Grenades all do pityfull damage and need a bigger initial BIG BANG. Maybe then, people would want to use them more often aka 'would bang again.'

Ya WHAT?! I don't know the exact numbers but Inferno grenades probably have one of the best DOT effects in the game. Not to mentioned the setting up for FE's etc.

More over Cluster grenades are quite powerful. As are homing grenades...

A krogan soldier with the correct settings makes 835 dps on armor with inferno grenades. Yeah... "pityfull"

Modifié par Harbingerpromo, 05 janvier 2013 - 10:09 .

[FlowCytometry]

Nitrocuban wrote...

FlowCytometry wrote...
Um, well some things have to stay the way they are to help create legitimate increases in difficulty
W/ power combos it makes sense to scale since combos take coordination and setup and should be rewarded on all difficulties. In addition, combo explosions are only boosted by a limited number of other factors vs. general powers (primer/detonator rank and any 'detonate' evolves- general power boosts do not affect them). Grenade spam is not analogous to this at all, and I'd rather it *not be tuned w/ difficulty (even then you start on a slippery slope- why not scale up everything else in this game?).

Right, but you can't actually _spam_ grenades on higher difficulties or you run out of Thermal Clip Packs after wave 3. And trying to keep your grenades on stock is way harder than warp-throw-warp-throw for 20min and nothing else tbh.
People are right, grenades are powerfull, but only cause they have high peak damage as they have no cooldown.
Once you run out of nades you are pretty much f***ed.
I really don't see why grenades refill faster on lower difficulties, it just makes no sense at all.

Well I play gold pugs almost exclusively w/ many kits- some grenaders. Unless its a 3-4 grenadier team and I'm not using a Demo, I can usually use grenades on whim on most packs of enemies w/o going through more than 2-3 thermals by the end of the mtach. Ofc, if ur using grenades on everything and everyone, then yeah even w/ thermals and grenade gear you can run dry mid-match, but that's just poor play. What's so bad about rewarding more fastidious grenade use as part of the difficulty increase? Mindless spawn nuking w/ nades and missiles is already barely held in check as is in most gold matches I see. If you can circuit ammo crates you can spawn bomb nearly all match and w/o going through all ur thermals- if you don't or forget to then you can run dry, and that also sounds like a fair trade-off to me.

W/ the current system, BW has imposed a team-wide hard cap on how many grenades can be used, likely cause they know uncapping it or making it individualized could trivilize matches w/ players that knew how spawns work and skew this game far too much to using blanket aoe abilities over anthing else. Gold would become bronze as long as you had enough grenadiers. I would tend to agree w/ that outlook, though I can say I dun really like the system overall atm.

(can't speak much for Platinum though, but I do feel that Plat's ammo crate return is tuned too low atm considering that its boss-rush_bullet sponge mode. That's not just limited to grenades. At some point, you cross the line in legitimate difficulty to inconveniences that impose artificial difficulty that are frustrating instead of challenging- see also: the entire Geth faction)

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 05 janvier 2013 - 10:28 .

[stayposi1990]

Isn't everything OP on bronze?

[billpickles]

stayposi1990 wrote...

Isn't everything OP on bronze?

Once again, please read the whole post, 'cause you entirely missed the point.  I'm going to have to assume you chose not to read it (or the rest of the thread).


More to the point...
The grenade shortages at higher levels is also one of the reasons I typically choose all weapon rather than power damage evolutions on most grenade classes.  Many on these forums advise the opposite, as it can be a pretty signifcant boost to your grenade damage.  To that, I say: "That's great...until you run out.  Then your gun is all you'll have to depend on."  I'll fire many more rounds in a match than I'll chuck grenades, primarily due to running out.

Modifié par billpickles, 05 janvier 2013 - 10:36 .

[stayposi1990]

billpickles wrote...

stayposi1990 wrote...

Isn't everything OP on bronze?

Once again, please read the whole post, 'cause you entirely missed the point.  I'm going to have to assume you chose not to read it (or the rest of the thread).


More to the point...
The grenade shortages at higher levels is also one of the reasons I typically choose all weapon rather than power damage evolutions on most grenade classes.  Many on these forums advise the opposite, as it can be a pretty signifcant boost to your grenade damage.  To that, I say: "That's great...until you run out.  Then your gun is all you'll have to depend on."  I'll fire many more rounds in a match than I'll chuck grenades, primarily due to running out.

I just thought it was funny that bronze was even mentioned.

I know exactly what you mean, that's how I spec my krentinel, since Gold is no place to rely on (or even really need) grenades unless you're a Demo.

I think the disparity between difficulties kinda sucks, but I also think it's balanced as-is. 

[Nitrocuban]

Would it be less balanced if grenades had on platin the same spawnrate as on bronze?

[FlowCytometry]

Nitrocuban wrote...

Would it be less balanced if grenades had on platin the same spawnrate as on bronze?

It would prob be; they'd likely have to re-tune the enemies or something to compensate. It'd prob skew the class balance to favor grenaders heavily (though plat is kinda poorly balanced as is- many consider it more a boss-rush mode than a true higher difficulty- there's a little truth to that).

The major discrepancy is player power creep; to make it simple how apparent it can be, take 2 example setups:

Entry level player: lvl 12 Drell Adept w/ Predator VI, grenade capacity I-II, power amp 0-1, warp ammo 0-1, 2-3 thermal clip capacity

Player w/ half+ maxed URs manifest: lvl 20 Drell Adept w/ Talon V, grenade capacity IV-V, power amp III-IV, warp ammo II-III, 4-5 thermal clip capacity

If bronze is balanced around the first, then it doesn't matter if the second can trivialize it, comparatively, since they can go up to higher difficulties. If bronze is balanced around the 2nd player, then we got major problems for players like the first. I think the issue is that you assume that bronze should be balanced around players that have good manifests, because to a player that's nearly starting out, 'grenade spam' isn't nearly as potent or as efficient to maintain due to equips/gear/level restrictions. If they find they *are starting to trivilize it, then maybe that's not so much a difficulty balance issue but a sign that the player is ready to step up to the next setting.

[Edorian27]

Seems to me the solution for you is to play silver, when they are too strong on bronze and too weak on gold...

[Deerber]

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Frag Grenades, Arc Grenades, Lift Grenades all do decent damage and can save your ass in many situations.

Cluster Grenades, Inferno Grenades, Homing Grenades all do pityfull damage and need a bigger initial BIG BANG. Maybe then, people would want to use them more often aka 'would bang again.'

Tell me you're trolling hard. Please 

[Schw4ng1n]

Deerber wrote...

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Frag Grenades, Arc Grenades, Lift Grenades all do decent damage and can save your ass in many situations.

Cluster Grenades, Inferno Grenades, Homing Grenades all do pityfull damage and need a bigger initial BIG BANG. Maybe then, people would want to use them more often aka 'would bang again.'

Tell me you're trolling hard. Please 

I wouldn't mind another surprise grenade buff...

[RoundedPlanet88]

Deerber wrote...

CaptainTeabag wrote...

Frag Grenades, Arc Grenades, Lift Grenades all do decent damage and can save your ass in many situations.

Cluster Grenades, Inferno Grenades, Homing Grenades all do pityfull damage and need a bigger initial BIG BANG. Maybe then, people would want to use them more often aka 'would bang again.'

Tell me you're trolling hard. Please 

I really hope he is as well. But i suspect that hes not. I`m not sure whether to laugh or to cry.