255 réponses à ce sujet

[ohnotherancor]

cowoline wrote...

Yeah I still don't get the thing about Tallis. How can a female Qunari be a ben hassrath? In DA II the Arishok can object to duel you if you are female (though he will anyway) and in DA:O Sten can confront a female warden about going into battle. And there is this.

Sten: Why are you here?
Leliana: What do you mean?
Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting.
Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this...
Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors?
Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
Leliana: What are you talking about? They don't wish to be men.
Sten: They shouldn't. That can only lead to frustration.
Leliana: Sten...no, never mind. Let's drop this.

Is it because their titles means more than what they are? In which case it makes no sense that the Arishok complains in the first place. And if so does that mean that they are no longer women in the eyes of the Qun and lose some of their "rights", such as marriage? Can someone please explain this to me, because I haven't received a good answer yet?

So far Tallis seems like a bit of a mistake to me, even though I loved MOTA.

David Gaider answered this a while back. Basically, the qunari do not classify the Ben-Hassrath's activities as "fighting."

Modifié par x0hn0th3r4nc0rx, 07 janvier 2013 - 09:59 .

[TobiTobsen]

cowoline wrote...

Yeah I still don't get the thing about Tallis. How can a female Qunari be a ben hassrath? In DA II the Arishok can object to duel you if you are female (though he will anyway) and in DA:O Sten can confront a female warden about going into battle. And there is this.

Sten: Why are you here?
Leliana: What do you mean?
Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting.
Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this...
Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors?
Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
Leliana: What are you talking about? They don't wish to be men.
Sten: They shouldn't. That can only lead to frustration.
Leliana: Sten...no, never mind. Let's drop this.

Is it because their titles means more than what they are? In which case it makes no sense that the Arishok complains in the first place. And if so does that mean that they are no longer women in the eyes of the Qun and lose some of their "rights", such as marriage? Can someone please explain this to me, because I haven't received a good answer yet?

So far Tallis seems like a bit of a mistake to me, even though I loved MOTA.

Women can be no warriors. The Ben-Hassrath are no warriors. They are keepers and enforcers of the faith of the Qun and therefore priests who fall under the guidance of the Ariqun and not the Arishoks all-male military.

David Gaider wrote...

There seems to be an assumption here that female Qunari are incapable of fighting.

They do not become part of the warriors that serve under the Arishok, the purpose for whom is to do battle. A Ben'Hassrath is not a warrior. Doing battle is not their purpose. Their purpose is as watchdogs, spies and  enforcers... and when it comes to the part about spies, the Qunari are not above recognizing that other races serve far better in certain roles when it comes to operating in foreign lands. They do not waste resources, but instead put the person best suited to their role in the correct place.

Had I realized people had made this particular leap, I might have added a "I thought Qunari women didn't fight?"
question to Hawke (even though Tallis mentions she didn't begin her life as Qunari). I guess I assumed that people would see this as something new we've revealed about the Ben-Hassrath, which we haven't discussed
much previously, rather than jumping to the conclusion that this is a contradiction. But there you go.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:04 .

[cowoline]

Women can be no warriors. The Ben-Hassrath are no warriors. They are keepers and enforcers of the faith of the Qun and therefore priests who fall under the guidance of the Ariqun and not the Arishoks all-male military.

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

There seems to be an assumption here that female Qunari are incapable of fighting.

They do not become part of the warriors that serve under the Arishok, the purpose for whom is to do battle. A Ben'Hassrath is not a warrior. Doing battle is not their purpose. Their purpose is as watchdogs, spies and  enforcers... and when it comes to the part about spies, the Qunari are not above recognizing that other races serve far better in certain roles when it comes to operating in foreign lands. They do not waste resources, but instead put the person best suited to their role in the correct place.

Had I realized people had made this particular leap, I might have added a "I thought Qunari women didn't fight?"
question to Hawke (even though Tallis mentions she didn't begin her life as Qunari). I guess I assumed that people would see this as something new we've revealed about the Ben-Hassrath, which we haven't discussed
much previously, rather than jumping to the conclusion that this is a contradiction. But there you go.
[/quote][/quote]

Then why do Sten question even female rogues or the Arishok for that matter? Let us hope that dear Mr. Gaider gets the oppertunity to be more explanitory in the next game.

Thank you for answering and finding this quote:)

[TobiTobsen]

cowoline wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Women can be no warriors. The Ben-Hassrath are no warriors. They are keepers and enforcers of the faith of the Qun and therefore priests who fall under the guidance of the Ariqun and not the Arishoks all-male military.

David Gaider wrote...

There seems to be an assumption here that female Qunari are incapable of fighting.

They do not become part of the warriors that serve under the Arishok, the purpose for whom is to do battle. A Ben'Hassrath is not a warrior. Doing battle is not their purpose. Their purpose is as watchdogs, spies and  enforcers... and when it comes to the part about spies, the Qunari are not above recognizing that other races serve far better in certain roles when it comes to operating in foreign lands. They do not waste resources, but instead put the person best suited to their role in the correct place.

Had I realized people had made this particular leap, I might have added a "I thought Qunari women didn't fight?"
question to Hawke (even though Tallis mentions she didn't begin her life as Qunari). I guess I assumed that people would see this as something new we've revealed about the Ben-Hassrath, which we haven't discussed
much previously, rather than jumping to the conclusion that this is a contradiction. But there you go.

Then why do Sten question even female rogues or the Arishok for that matter? Let us hope that dear Mr. Gaider gets the oppertunity to be more explanitory in the next game.

Thank you for answering and finding this quote:)

Because they see no difference between female warriors and rogues. Those ladies are certainly no theological enforcers

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:12 .

[Face of Evil]

cowoline wrote...

Then why do Sten question even female rogues or the Arishok for that matter?

Because the female rogues in both games do battle.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:12 .

[Firky]

Wullo wrote...

Firky wrote...

^ That's the indescribable gender thing I was alluding to on the last page, beautifully captured.

Because, I can't replace all the "shes" with "hes" and still believe it.

(Don't worry. It's probably just me. And, there may be a case for putting "he" in there. It's just outside of my experience.)

Edit: My point being, that I wish BioWare had tried the "putting a gamer/journalist/etc into the game" thing with a guy first. (But, like I said, maybe just me.)

I think I know what you mean, and not just with "celebrities" translated into games, but with characters in general.
And no, it's not just you, David Gaider seem to share your opinion about the "gender thing": (just a snippet here)

"As a general rule (to which there are always exceptions) male characters tend to oohed and ahhed over by the female fans, who immediately begin conjuring backgrounds for them (if said background is unknown) and wondering if they’re romanceable. Female characters, meanwhile, are immediately condemned for every physical flaw they might have or the way they dress. And not just by male fans."

And to contribute to the topic at hand.. I wouldn't mind Tallis appearing in the next game if Bioware has some interesting story to tell with her.

It's a funny old issue, female characters and their physical appearance. And one that's obscured by the fact that a real actor is involved. Kind of. Sort of. I don't know.

If I see Isabela looking scantily clad, I'd feel comfortable criticising or analysing her clothing, because she's fictional. I probably wouldn't notice if she's attractive, personally. And there's a case for looking at the way female characters are clothed, in games. There are some important issues in there. Seeing Tallis' opening with a shot of her bum - and the whole fact that you can kiss her, or whatever, just broke my brain. I can't even begin to try to figure all that out. (I'm sure for many/most people it's a non issue.)

Part of the original sentence I was replying to was that "Felicia Day is crawling her way into everything gaming," for example.

That's precisely why I go to gaming events and say, "Hi, my name is Meg, and what's that that just fell out of my wallet? Oh, a screenshot of me beating FTL on normal with no shields? How embarrassing." (That's an exaggeration, but not by much. Female gamers often have to prove their legitimacy, is all.) (Me beating FTL on normal without shields isn't an exaggeration. It took me 76 hours.) I don't like actors in games. Worse, I don't like the inclusion of Tallis providing an opportunity for people to rag on a real, female gamer. (But at the same time, that's ridiculous too, because Felicia Day can write/help write/play whatever character she likes and BioWare can use actors if they want to.)

It's an impossible argument.

[Orian Tabris]

People seem to have issues.

I do realise that Tallis is basically the Felicia Day (DA) companion, though I hardly consider her to have been shoved down our throats.

People overlook the fact that who she is, is what makes her imperfect, just like every other companion in the Dragon Age series is imperfect. Her problems are the same as Sebastian's, and people hate them, just because they, themselves, are too stupid to recognise the characters' faults are what make them who they are. Their beliefs cloud their judgement, and make them say things that are wrong, but we do the same thing in real life.

We are blinded by our beliefs, and that's the main reason humans start wars with each other. I.e., we deserve their water because we're us, and they're not; they deserve to die because their beliefs are stupid, and ours are true.

Another example of a lot of people's stupidity. People hate Leliana for her accent (and her beliefs), and people hate Isolde for her accent.

There's this overarching hatred for the French accent, and people do not question their problems with it, because they want to hate it. I do it too (but not about the French accent specifically, I'm actually intrigued a great deal by it), though only to get a reaction, not because I ignore my own problems, but because I want to express my opinions.

People should stop hating Tallis (and Cullen, here). I'm the most outspoken anti-Cullen, but I do in fact like the character. I don't want to kill him just because he doesn't fit my Dragon Age repertoire. Nor should YOU want to kill Tallis because you don't like her.

[LobselVith8]

cowoline wrote...

Then why do Sten question even female rogues or the Arishok for that matter? Let us hope that dear Mr. Gaider gets the oppertunity to be more explanitory in the next game.

Thank you for answering and finding this quote:)

Many have asked this same question, given what Sten asks The Warden's female companions. People either think it's a recton or accept what the developers recently said.

[Knight of Dane]

MR_PN wrote...

So at the end of Mota Varric says that he thinks Tallis will show up again. This leads me to believe she will be in DAI as a companion maybe, or maybe just an npc. So im just wondering what other people think. Will she show up? If so, a companion or not? Also do you want her to show up? And also would you want her to be a romance option?

Gah, do not want. That hypocritic maze of a character should stay outta mah gaemz.
I don't care for felicia day, but basically when they use "real people" for their characters, their focus is not to make a sturdy one but just one that gets some nerds attention for a quick buck.

I see Diana Allers from ME3 the same way, though her character was almost blank so I had no personal dislike for her, she was just 5+ to the war assets for me.

I didn't get the Tallis project, I didn't even know who Miss Day was and frankly the few things I have seen with her I haven't been impressed. Didn't like that series either except for the reaver lady.. Nyree?

It didn't work with Michael Jackson in the old days and it won't work with even less famous folk now. Miranda is the exception but not because of her model but that he character appeals to people and are well developed, just like the other companions from the same games.

[LobselVith8]

Orian Tabris wrote...

People should stop hating Tallis (and Cullen, here). I'm the most outspoken anti-Cullen, but I do in fact like the character. I don't want to kill him just because he doesn't fit my Dragon Age repertoire. Nor should YOU want to kill Tallis because you don't like her.

I know that some people hate Tallis because she's Qunari, and/or anti-mage, given her comment, "We Qunari know how to treat our animals" (as she held a Qunari mage collar). Those kind of views are bound to cause some players to hate Tallis (and Cullen, given his comments on mages and the Tranquil Solution).

[Steppenwolf]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Sten: Why are you here?
Leliana: What do you mean?
Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting.
Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this...
Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors?
Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
Leliana: What are you talking about? They don't wish to be men.
Sten: They shouldn't. That can only lead to frustration.
Leliana: Sten...no, never mind. Let's drop this

David Gaider wrote...

There seems to be an assumption here that female Qunari are incapable of fighting.

They do not become part of the warriors that serve under the Arishok, the purpose for whom is to do battle. A Ben'Hassrath is not a warrior. Doing battle is not their purpose. Their purpose is as watchdogs, spies and  enforcers... and when it comes to the part about spies, the Qunari are not above recognizing that other races serve far better in certain roles when it comes to operating in foreign lands. They do not waste resources, but instead put the person best suited to their role in the correct place.

Had I realized people had made this particular leap, I might have added a "I thought Qunari women didn't fight?"
question to Hawke (even though Tallis mentions she didn't begin her life as Qunari). I guess I assumed that people would see this as something new we've revealed about the Ben-Hassrath, which we haven't discussed
much previously, rather than jumping to the conclusion that this is a contradiction. But there you go.

That's a whole lot of intellectual dishonesty to make sense of something they obviously didn't put much thought into. The Ben'Hassrath aren't soldiers so that means it's alright for Qunari women to take roles outside what the Qun demands? The Qunari don't seem like big supporters of loopholes or soft rules. Tallis is nothing but one nonsensical contradiction after another.

[Angelips]

I really hope she does come back in DA3.

She is a very fun and bubbly companion, alot like Isabella imo, but abit more serious.

[Ausstig]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

She probably got more screen time than she should have during her DLC, which sadly put quite a few off her character it seems. As a character however, I find her very interesting and pretty funny. Then again, I would feel like that since she's got a unique angle on the whole Qun thing and anything related to Qunari makes me want to read and see more.

Izana wrote...

Tallis is like a bad Self Insert Fic character. Her skills, personality, influense and screen time are a bit over the top and it annoys me. Not to mention how she looks exactly like her creator.

Her creator played the character on web-tv. What would you have preferred the developers to have done, completely retcon her looks when she was put in game instead of retain the look she originally had for no reason? That's like saying Luke Skywalker is a bad self-insert for Mark Hamill in Star Wars games - of course Luke is going to look like Mark Hamill.

Mark Hamil did not invent Luke Skywalker he just plays him. Ms Day created the character, therefore you can call it a self inster fan fic. 

I just get tried of her gushing for a brainwashing cult. No that miss crazy elf I like my free will and ability to change my station in life.  Say what you will about the Chantry they don't give people one role for their entire life based on, what is it a test?, that they do to children. 

Hell I wanted the chasend bodygaurd to join my party he seemed more interesting. 

[Rawgrim]

Don`t want to ever see that "elf" again. She was the most immersion\\lore breaking Mary-Sue i have ever seen in a game.

[Cobra's_back]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

People should stop hating Tallis (and Cullen, here). I'm the most outspoken anti-Cullen, but I do in fact like the character. I don't want to kill him just because he doesn't fit my Dragon Age repertoire. Nor should YOU want to kill Tallis because you don't like her.

I know that some people hate Tallis because she's Qunari, and/or anti-mage, given her comment, "We Qunari know how to treat our animals" (as she held a Qunari mage collar). Those kind of views are bound to cause some players to hate Tallis (and Cullen, given his comments on mages and the Tranquil Solution).

I don't hate them but really don't care for them. I really don't need to see her in DA3. I'm not sure what she would add to the story????

[NoForgiveness]

Angelips wrote...

I really hope she does come back in DA3.

She is a very fun and bubbly companion, alot like Isabella imo, but abit more serious.

ya, if you bring izzy, tallis says she used to be like her until she found the qun

[NoForgiveness]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

People should stop hating Tallis (and Cullen, here). I'm the most outspoken anti-Cullen, but I do in fact like the character. I don't want to kill him just because he doesn't fit my Dragon Age repertoire. Nor should YOU want to kill Tallis because you don't like her.

I know that some people hate Tallis because she's Qunari, and/or anti-mage, given her comment, "We Qunari know how to treat our animals" (as she held a Qunari mage collar). Those kind of views are bound to cause some players to hate Tallis (and Cullen, given his comments on mages and the Tranquil Solution).

I don't hate them but really don't care for them. I really don't need to see her in DA3. I'm not sure what she would add to the story????

mainly i think she would just give more info on qunari culture and stuff like that

[Knight of Dane]

Would rather want that from a new qunari then, Tallis was really bad at that job.

[zombitologist]

 Yes, I've been wanting a female elf companion that's not a mage. Plus, she's awesome. I'd love to see them expand her character in a full game.

[AlexanderCousland]

Tallis. EWWW

besides the fact that I find her unattractive, she strikes me as a fool, ill prepared for infiltration, and her manipulative personality makes me want to throw up in my mouth. I hope i never have to see her involved in the series again.....ever.

[Zeta42]

cowoline wrote...


Women can be no warriors. The Ben-Hassrath are no warriors. They are keepers and enforcers of the faith of the Qun and therefore priests who fall under the guidance of the Ariqun and not the Arishoks all-male military.

David Gaider wrote...

There seems to be an assumption here that female Qunari are incapable of fighting.

They do not become part of the warriors that serve under the Arishok, the purpose for whom is to do battle. A Ben'Hassrath is not a warrior. Doing battle is not their purpose. Their purpose is as watchdogs, spies and  enforcers... and when it comes to the part about spies, the Qunari are not above recognizing that other races serve far better in certain roles when it comes to operating in foreign lands. They do not waste resources, but instead put the person best suited to their role in the correct place.

Had I realized people had made this particular leap, I might have added a "I thought Qunari women didn't fight?"
question to Hawke (even though Tallis mentions she didn't begin her life as Qunari). I guess I assumed that people would see this as something new we've revealed about the Ben-Hassrath, which we haven't discussed
much previously, rather than jumping to the conclusion that this is a contradiction. But there you go.

Then why do Sten question even female rogues or the Arishok for that matter? Let us hope that dear Mr. Gaider gets the oppertunity to be more explanitory in the next game.

Thank you for answering and finding this quote:)

Rogue or not, the one who gets the fighting question from Sten is the Warden, whose purpose is to fight the darkspawn. The Warden is technically a warrior, no matter the class.

Modifié par Zeta42, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:44 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Zeta42 wrote...

Rogue or not, the one who gets the fighting question from Sten is the Warden, whose purpose is to fight the darkspawn. The Warden is technically a warrior, no matter the class.

The Warden is also leading the group, and potentially leading the armies, in battle.

However I agree that some of what Sten says can be taken a certain way.

[NoForgiveness]

the classes dont actuallly exist. like in real life people were never like "im a rogue whos spec is duelist" its just a gameplay thing, used to seperate sneaky type and heavy hitter types and mages. what sten means by warrior is simply that your on the front lines(or the medievel equevalant) fighting darkspawn.

[In Exile]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
The Warden is also leading the group, and potentially leading the armies, in battle.

However I agree that some of what Sten says can be taken a certain way.

Not really. There's no indication that the Warden will be a military leader at all (Duncan wasn't). Sten's view is of the Warden as a thing that fights the blight.

[Wullo]

Firky wrote...

If I see Isabela looking scantily clad, I'd feel comfortable criticising or analysing her clothing, because she's fictional. I probably wouldn't notice if she's attractive, personally. And there's a case for looking at the way female characters are clothed, in games. There are some important issues in there. Seeing Tallis' opening with a shot of her bum - and the whole fact that you can kiss her, or whatever, just broke my brain. I can't even begin to try to figure all that out. (I'm sure for many/most people it's a non issue.)

Well, for me it's 2 different things. I take issues with the over-sexualization of females in games, in general.
That's on the shoulder of the developers.

But I would never criticize the character itself, like calling Isabela a b*tch or Tallis ugly. The Isabela thing in particular bothers me, because tho her appearance is the perfect example of  "women in fantasy" (big boobs, impractical "sexy" armor) her character is a strong, independent woman, and anyone calling her a b*tch is kinda just sl*t-shaming imo.
And hating on someone coz you think they are ugly or whatever is just.. I dunno, very-very sad. xD

And yes, I am aware that they are fictional characters and don't need to be defended..

(I only replied to your comment because it touches on some of the things I agree with can be problematic regarding female characters in games. And I am pretty sure this would be a non- or at least less of a problem if the character in question was male..)

Modifié par Wullo, 08 janvier 2013 - 12:22 .