235 réponses à ce sujet

[DJ Airsurfer]

I feel like recording a game playing as the Phoeguard and proving that Smash isn't as bad as people in this thread make it out to be. Obviously, I wouldn't say no to a buff. I just don't think it's needed.

There are lots of other things that need buffing more, like Sentry Turret.

[-Morbid-]

I'd just like the cooldown shortened up again.

If that won't happen, then yeah it could use some DR or something at least.

[palmof40sorrows]

Bhatair wrote...

With smash it's always better to use it on big targets because of the limit.
With the smashguard if you want to bomb spawns with him it's easier to use his melee, it's quick it's 360 AOE and with proper upgrades it does pretty awesome damage.

Hear hear. I love me a melee build Phoenix Vanguard.

[Astronaughte]

I don't like it the only thing I can consistently kill with it is bombers. But I've never liked the pheonix units.

[Zero132132]

By comparison, it probably does lose out. However, I think being able to cancel out of the animation should at least be considered. On the Slayer, the cooldown doesn't actually start until the animation is complete, so it's effectively longer than Smash's.

Not disagreeing with an increase to the number of enemies hit, specifically because of ****ing swarmers. Not disagreeing in general, actually. Just don't think it's awful.

[stefbomb]

Here's how to fix Smash:

(1) 75% DR during cast.
(2) Range extended to 12 meters.
(3) Max targets increased to 3.

There. Done.

[Eelectrica]

It could use more range.
But I've just finished Pheonix Vanguard for challenges, and won't be going back again.
Buff it, nerf, throw it in the abyss, it's all the same to me.

[Stahlhammer]

Carbuncle wrote...

would be nice if it was when it was buffed in terms of range

[4ut0b4hn5child27]

@AirQuotes

Need Moar Aggressive in close combat

KTHXBY

[Flambrose]

Air Quotes wrote...

DJ Airsurfer wrote...

I feel like recording a game playing as the Phoeguard and proving that Smash isn't as bad as people in this thread make it out to be. Obviously, I wouldn't say no to a buff. I just don't think it's needed.

There are lots of other things that need buffing more, like Sentry Turret.

 

No need. I know people can score well with it. Hell, I can. 

 

But still, it has serious drawbacks that result in unnecesary deaths. 

Try getting this score using biotic slash.

[xsdob]

It will be a hell of a lot easier, I can tell you that. And I like the pheoguard.

Modifié par xsdob, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:33 .

[Blind2Society]

Unnerf the cooldown and take swarmers of the target-priority list and smash will be fine in my eyes. Though, taking only one bar of shields/armor off an atlas per cast is very annoying.

[Major Durza]

I've played with the Pheonix Adept rather extensively, and the most annoying thing about Smash I think is the lack of targets it can hit.
Now, it is not a "boss killer" power. If by "Boss" you mean Pyros, Dragoons, Marauders, Collector Captains etc then yes, it kills them rather well (well, taking them down to half or a little more than that. What makes the Pheonixes are the way their melees work with Smash and the other powers. They are best built to be CQC staggerlock monsters, but Smash tries to be a short-range bosskiller and totally fails at doing so.

So I disagree about the range increases, these are not needed. Increase the cap on targets hit, definintely could use that. It would render the radius evo to be subpar at best, though. Perhaps make the other evo wider radius and range? That would require a patch, though.
Also, one thing that made the Pheonix Adept good in particular is the way he was able to endlessly string powers together. Singularity and Smash had reals short cooldowns, and smash would take down the shields of Lieutenants. Take down shields, singularity, lash, boom all dead. Phantom? Smash, Lash, dead.
So reducing its cooldown back to original buff state would also be a good option, promotes the power's synergy with the rest of the Pheonixes skillset.
Also, DR is needed for the animation. Maybe a little less than the Batarian Heavy Melee

So, in summary what I think this power could use
Targets hit (without radius evo) increased to 4
radius evo rank 6 also extend's smash's range by 2(?) meters along with the usual benefits.
Increased DR during animation.
Base cooldown brought back down to 6 seconds.

If these were implemented at the same time, this would likely be called out as OP, so perhaps take a couple of options. I could really go for cooldown and DR, that would make it not quite so powerful but worth using again. I think the most important is the cooldown, personally. If they increase the cap on targets hit, then they need to buff the rank 6 evo to compensate and make it an appealing option.

[Major Durza]

Flambrose wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

DJ Airsurfer wrote...

I feel like recording a game playing as the Phoeguard and proving that Smash isn't as bad as people in this thread make it out to be. Obviously, I wouldn't say no to a buff. I just don't think it's needed.

There are lots of other things that need buffing more, like Sentry Turret.

 

No need. I know people can score well with it. Hell, I can. 

 

But still, it has serious drawbacks that result in unnecesary deaths. 

Try getting this score using biotic slash.

Spamming smash is not how he got this score.  I know that is not how I score high with either Pheonix.  As a Pheonix Vanguard, most of my damge is done by melee, BC, and Wraith.  Adept; BE's, melee, Wraith.

[Major Durza]

Those who want to increase the overall range are missing the point of the power, I think.

[Dream-Maker]

Reading your one-sided "comparison", you obviously don't know how to use and spec Smash properly. With the right evos you can do stackable DOT damage on several targets, even more on armor/barrier. Not mentioning that smash's animation is a lot shorter than biotic slash, can prime TBs and is roll/melee cancellable way earlier, all of this resulting in exponentially better DPS.

Repeatedly spamming the move by itself does very strong DPS on AOE, which biotic slash can never achieve despite its advantages in range and AOE.

[Flambrose]

Major Durza wrote...

Flambrose wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

DJ Airsurfer wrote...

I feel like recording a game playing as the Phoeguard and proving that Smash isn't as bad as people in this thread make it out to be. Obviously, I wouldn't say no to a buff. I just don't think it's needed.

There are lots of other things that need buffing more, like Sentry Turret.

 

No need. I know people can score well with it. Hell, I can. 

 

But still, it has serious drawbacks that result in unnecesary deaths. 

Try getting this score using biotic slash.

Spamming smash is not how he got this score.  I know that is not how I score high with either Pheonix.  As a Pheonix Vanguard, most of my damge is done by melee, BC, and Wraith.  Adept; BE's, melee, Wraith.

I know. I'm a big fan of the Phoenix Adept, and scores like these aren't unheard of for me using him. I'm just saying Biotic Slash has nothing on Smash. At least not on the only class it's put on.

[Major Durza]

Dream-Maker wrote...

Reading your one-sided "comparison", you obviously don't know how to use and spec Smash properly. With the right evos you can do stackable DOT damage on several targets, even more on armor/barrier. Not mentioning that smash's animation is a lot shorter than biotic slash, can prime TBs and is roll/melee cancellable way earlier, all of this resulting in exponentially better DPS.

Repeatedly spamming the move by itself does very strong DPS on AOE, which biotic slash can never achieve despite its advantages in range and AOE.

Unless you are spamming this through walls, you are not going to get this stacked DOT damage on *2* targets, not worth writing home about anyway.  Impressive damage, yes, when talking about speed it'll take down a brute?  Negligible without BE's.  Ravagers?  Better hope they do not break out the swarmers if you are a Smashguard, else you waste time being exposed for nothing.

Roll cancelling does not help the cooldown, it just makes sure that you are only exposed for the startup part of the animation; that's the longer part, anyway.

This AOE you speak of is two targets, BTW.

[Major Durza]

Flambrose wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

Flambrose wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

DJ Airsurfer wrote...

I feel like recording a game playing as the Phoeguard and proving that Smash isn't as bad as people in this thread make it out to be. Obviously, I wouldn't say no to a buff. I just don't think it's needed.

There are lots of other things that need buffing more, like Sentry Turret.

 

No need. I know people can score well with it. Hell, I can. 

 

But still, it has serious drawbacks that result in unnecesary deaths. 

Try getting this score using biotic slash.

Spamming smash is not how he got this score.  I know that is not how I score high with either Pheonix.  As a Pheonix Vanguard, most of my damge is done by melee, BC, and Wraith.  Adept; BE's, melee, Wraith.

I know. I'm a big fan of the Phoenix Adept, and scores like these aren't unheard of for me using him. I'm just saying Biotic Slash has nothing on Smash. At least not on the only class it's put on.

Biotic Slash does not synergize with the Slayer at all, made it a no-brainer to skip it.  They were likely thinking as hard about that move as when they were thinking about the TGI and the Saboteur.

Biotic slash has CC ability, the kind of CC that the Pheonixes sorely need with that power.  Few things quite as disappointing as seeing hunters and pyros making their way towards you (more than a group of two) and knowing that your smash is only going to hinder two of them.

Biotic Slash and Smash are meant for two pretty different things.  BS is decent at what it was meant to do, Smash is not quite there.  Smash is meant for CQC, high risk high reward and all that.  Risk is too high (DR, cooldown, and range would help that, but I disagree with range because I want the CQC part preserved to prevent PUG's from adopting this en-masse, cooldown promotes spammability which would make this class a biotic bosskiller once more) reward is too low (increase targets hit would help, as would CD reduction.)

I personally want to see cooldown so I can follow up a Smash with a Singularity or Lash (Phantom), and would be happy with that.  Or an increase on targets hit so I can be a little better at my role as CC.

Anyway, got off topic.  Point, Smash is CQC CC or a bosskiller and it fails at both at the moment.  BS is merely CC with decent damage, and does OK at that.  Ignoring the fact that it is utterly useless on the Slayer.

[Blind2Society]

You guys do know you can edit your posts before you hit submit right? Maybe trim the tree a bit?

[Dream-Maker]

Major Durza wrote...

Unless you are spamming this through walls, you are not going to get this stacked DOT damage on *2* targets, not worth writing home about anyway.  Impressive damage, yes, when talking about speed it'll take down a brute?  Negligible without BE's.  Ravagers?  Better hope they do not break out the swarmers if you are a Smashguard, else you waste time being exposed for nothing.

Roll cancelling does not help the cooldown, it just makes sure that you are only exposed for the startup part of the animation; that's the longer part, anyway.

This AOE you speak of is two targets, BTW.

I know that it's two targets but this is still AOE whether you like it or not. And by the way OP is comparing Smash to biotic slash, so even if smash's DPS is far from being the best thing ever (which I never said) it's by all accounts way better in that field than anything biotic slash can achieve. Let's at least be honest about that.

As for spamming smash through walls or not, this has not much to do with you hitting your targets, it all depends on how you manage your exposure and roll/melee cancels, what enemies you are facing and how you time your smashes. But again the move is being compared to biotic slash, anyone who has used the phoenixes enough should know that smash is usable in the open with some good reflexes and precautions, while doing the same thing with biotic slash is close to impossible.

Also I didn't say roll cancelling helped cooldowns, I said the possibility to cancel it with rolls or melee improves DPS. The reason being that you can act earlier, especially in the case of the melee where you do damage AND get DR. And believe me if you do it right you can cancel very early in the animation while still getting the move to come out.

Try cancelling biotic slash as early as smash in the animation and you'll see what I'm talking about and why smash absolutely destroys biotic slash in both safety of use and DPS.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 06 janvier 2013 - 09:30 .

[Major Durza]

Blind2Society wrote...

You guys do know you can edit your posts before you hit submit right? Maybe trim the tree a bit?

3:30AM for me, no time to be rational.
Will note for later, not doing it now because that wouldn't be a response would it.
SPAM.

EDIT: Example A:

Dream-Maker wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

Unless you are spamming this through walls, you are not going to get this stacked DOT damage on *2* targets, not worth writing home about anyway.  Impressive damage, yes, when talking about speed it'll take down a brute?  Negligible without BE's.  Ravagers?  Better hope they do not break out the swarmers if you are a Smashguard, else you waste time being exposed for nothing.

Roll cancelling does not help the cooldown, it just makes sure that you are only exposed for the startup part of the animation; that's the longer part, anyway.

This AOE you speak of is two targets, BTW.

I know that it's two targets but this is still AOE whether you like it or not. And by the way OP is comparing Smash to biotic slash, so even if smash's DPS is far from being the best thing ever (which I never said) it's by all accounts way better in that field than anything biotic slash can achieve. Let's at least be honest about that.

As for spamming smash through walls or not, this has not much to do with you hitting your targets, it all depends on how you manage your exposure and roll/melee cancels, what enemies you are facing and how you time your smashes. But again the move is being compared to biotic slash, anyone who has used the phoenixes enough should know that smash is usable in the open with some good reflexes and precautions, while doing the same thing with biotic slash is impossible.

Also I didn't say roll cancelling helped cooldowns, I said the possibility to cancel it with rolls or melee improves DPS. The reason being that you can act earlier, especially in the case of the melee where you do damage AND get DR. And believe me if you do it right you can cancel very early in the animation while still getting the move to come out.

Try cancelling biotic slash as early as smash in the animation and you'll see what I'm talking about and why smash absolutely destroys biotic slash in both safety of use and DPS.

I runs a BS-Free Slayer, never used the power in my life.  Does not work with the slayer, and the way it is designed is for a far different purpose than Smash.

Smash is supposed to be a bosskiller, take it to Platinum and this will not take you far.  Other biotic classes are much better for this.  For instance, Vanilla Human Adept has better bosskilling power and Crowd Control to boot.  Range also helps.

So, if not bosskilling how about Lieutenants and the like?
Works fine if they come by in groups of 2 or less, for reasons mentioned above. Platinum, 3 hunters, common scenario.  Or 3 marauders, same deal.  Can only hurt two of them with Smash.
Problem, yes.  That is not good.

So, not-so-good at bosskilling (Plat Standards, works decent-maybe on Gold with BE's as long as it is not a Posessed Praetorian, Scion, Prime, or Atlas) and kinda lousy at helping to thin a crowd of Lieutenants.  But hey, Smash hits hard enough to kill a Gold Cannibal in one hit(Not sure if I was using power amps, perhaps commando package)

So, power by power standards what is this thing good at?

Modifié par Major Durza, 06 janvier 2013 - 09:36 .

[Blind2Society]

Major Durza wrote...

3:30AM for me, no time to be rational.

Got a good giggle out of that.

4:30 here, but I just got up.

[Crimson Vanguard]

So AirQuotes, things are either suck or OP? Nothing good or decent?