235 réponses à ce sujet

[Major Durza]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

So AirQuotes, things are either suck or OP? Nothing good or decent?

Humanity tends to think a lot more about the bad than the good, and discussion is rarely about how decent something is.

[Dream-Maker]

Major Durza wrote...

I runs a BS-Free Slayer, never used the power in my life.  Does not work with the slayer, and the way it is designed is for a far different purpose than Smash.

Smash is supposed to be a bosskiller, take it to Platinum and this will not take you far.  Other biotic classes are much better for this.  For instance, Vanilla Human Adept has better bosskilling power and Crowd Control to boot.  Range also helps.

So, if not bosskilling how about Lieutenants and the like?
Works fine if they come by in groups of 2 or less, for reasons mentioned above. Platinum, 3 hunters, common scenario.  Or 3 marauders, same deal.  Can only hurt two of them with Smash.
Problem, yes.  That is not good.

So, not-so-good at bosskilling (Plat Standards, works decent-maybe on Gold with BE's as long as it is not a Posessed Praetorian, Scion, Prime, or Atlas) and kinda lousy at helping to thin a crowd of Lieutenants.  But hey, Smash hits hard enough to kill a Gold Cannibal in one hit(Not sure if I was using power amps, perhaps commando package)

So, power by power standards what is this thing good at?

Sorry, but how exactly did you just demonstrate that smash doesn't do its job at boss killing ? How often do you play the smash kits to say the power doesn't do well on gold and platinum ?

My own experience says otherwise, I personally use both classes regulary with a different spec on smash on both gold and platinum. My vanguard shreds bosses with DOT + anti armor smash and incendiary piranha shots, and my adept does the same (although not as good as the vanguard) with a singularity + biotic specced smash combo with warp ammo Talon shots inbewteen. In both cases smash does its job, in one case by delivering some powerful DOT, damage and detonator effect and in the other by detonating BEs to add damage and/or priming to improve weapon damage with warp ammo.

Yes there are better powers and combinations to kill bosses, and yes most of the time you can't count on smash alone to do the job (but honestly how many powers exactly do destroy bosses by themselves anyway ?) I can agree with that but saying that smash doesn't do its job as a boss killer is a false statement in my opinion.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 06 janvier 2013 - 09:54 .

[Feneckus]

Air Quotes wrote...

Phantoms block it all the time. So you risk going to that range and they freaking block it! 

I'm surprised you don't how to make it work vs phantoms. Aim at your feet, just like you would do with a grenade. Problem solved. It's actually one of the best anti phantom power.

[Major Durza]

Dream-Maker wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

I runs a BS-Free Slayer, never used the power in my life.  Does not work with the slayer, and the way it is designed is for a far different purpose than Smash.

Smash is supposed to be a bosskiller, take it to Platinum and this will not take you far.  Other biotic classes are much better for this.  For instance, Vanilla Human Adept has better bosskilling power and Crowd Control to boot.  Range also helps.

So, if not bosskilling how about Lieutenants and the like?
Works fine if they come by in groups of 2 or less, for reasons mentioned above. Platinum, 3 hunters, common scenario.  Or 3 marauders, same deal.  Can only hurt two of them with Smash.
Problem, yes.  That is not good.

So, not-so-good at bosskilling (Plat Standards, works decent-maybe on Gold with BE's as long as it is not a Posessed Praetorian, Scion, Prime, or Atlas) and kinda lousy at helping to thin a crowd of Lieutenants.  But hey, Smash hits hard enough to kill a Gold Cannibal in one hit(Not sure if I was using power amps, perhaps commando package)

So, power by power standards what is this thing good at?

Sorry, but how exactly did you just demonstrate that smash doesn't do its job at boss killing ? How often do you play the smash kits to say the power doesn't do well on gold and platinum ?

My own experience says otherwise, I personally use both classes regulary with a different spec on smash on both gold and platinum. My vanguard shreds bosses with DOT + anti armor smash and incendiary piranha shots, and my adept does the same (although not as good as the vanguard) with a singularity + biotic specced smash combo with warp ammo Talon shots inbewteen. In both cases smash does its job, in one case by delivering some powerful DOT, damage and detonator effect and in the other by detonating BEs to add damage and/or priming to improve weapon damage with warp ammo.

Yes there are better powers and combinations to kill bosses, and yes most of the time you can't count on smash alone to do the job (but honestly how many powers exactly do destroy bosses by themselves anyway ?) I can agree with that but saying that smash doesn't do its job as a boss killer is a false statement in my opinion.

I regularly use the Adept on Gold with a Wraith VI
I do not do so well at Platinum, since I am just now deciding to focus on it.  I have tried it once on Plat in conjuntion with Dunvi using the Human Adept.  Needless to say she stomped me into the ground on an off-day.

I do not mean it fails at it, I mean that it is not plat ready.  It needs to do its job better, I think the best way is to reduce cooldown so it can be followed up by a complimentary power like it used to.
For instance, it is a Phantomkiller with Smash and Lash, as it stands the Phantom will toss you aside waiting for the cooldown and chase you relentlessly regardless of cover.

Smash and BC is just too slow and in-your face risky.  It wasn't slow at one point, but it sure as hell is now.

Am I saying its worthless, of course not.  I am saying that it needs to be better.  Still not high enough reward for the risk, or too much risk for the relatively low reward depending on how you look at it.

I do not know the math, but I do know that for the amount of time that you are exposed(and more importantly, the cooldown) is not worth the comparative power of the smash itself.  The individual damage is more than offset by the time before and after the smash that you can use it.  When using it by-itself, you start the smash, startup, and whether or not you cancel it you still have to wait for the CD.  Smash again, and it locks you out of doing something productive (like firing your weapon) to wait and hit the target again.  That is inefficient, I never liked doing it when it was spammable either.
So, options.  Smash, melee(light is timed right to restagger a lieutenant hit by smash, all the same only works on lieutenants and below) is not effective on bosses.
Smashing and firing a Talon(warp rounds) is arguably slower than doing the same with Warp, and less effective... and slower.

For a boss, Warp, shoot shoot Shockwave >>> Smash shoot shoot shoot Smash if we are talking about single boss damage.  Even then, a Platinum BE I am pretty sure outdamages a Smash
Also better than Singularity shoot shoot Smash shoot shoot.


I have not heard of Smash having a DOT effect, ever.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that there is no DOT.  Perhaps for the tech combo evo?

Feneckus wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Phantoms block it all the time. So you risk going to that range and they freaking block it! 

I'm surprised you don't how to make it work vs phantoms. Aim at your feet, just like you would do with a grenade. Problem solved. It's actually one of the best anti phantom power.

I did not know this.  Thanks!

Modifié par Major Durza, 06 janvier 2013 - 10:24 .

[Dream-Maker]

Major Durza wrote...

I have not heard of Smash having a DOT effect, ever.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that there is no DOT.  Perhaps for the tech combo evo?

If you did not know that, then no wonder why we couldn't quite understand each other. Yes, the tech evo is a 50% DOT that lasts for 7,5 seconds and can stack multiple times. It's what makes smash powerful against bosses especially combined with the barrier and armor damage evo. Also allows to kill many smaller enemies in one cast.  That's why I was refering to in my very first post in this thread when I said the power stacked with itself.

Also for the rest of your post, you say you have to wait for CD between smashes. That's true but unless you're really under heavy fire (in which case you shouldn't even be using smash in the open in the first place) you can and should actually shoot to continue your DPS using right hand advantage and soft cover if needed.

Especially in the case of the vanguard you can smash, circle around enemies when shooting, occasionnaly meleeing when in need for DR and when your cooldowns are back smash again or charge if you need shields, that's how I play my vanguard at least personnaly.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 06 janvier 2013 - 12:00 .

[Feneckus]

The DOT evolution sucks. You're better off choosing the biotic effect so you can advantage of warp rounds.

[mrwizeguy]

Feneckus wrote...

The DOT evolution sucks. You're better off choosing the biotic effect so you can advantage of warp rounds.

I always choose the biotic evo on the smashguard with BC power boost , i get the feeling this combo was created for a vanguard to b able to charge on OHK bosses without being grabbed. Smash charge BE , i use and i havent been grabbed like that like ever , could be luck so dont jump on me if you do.
On topic, smashers need base health increase most definetly.

[Heldarion]

Buff screenshake

Biower pls

[MrScottBear]

Feneckus wrote...

The DOT evolution sucks. You're better off choosing the biotic effect so you can advantage of warp rounds.

Feel free to give an actual reason why a stackable DoT effect is bad.

[HolyAvenger]

Major Durza wrote...

Smash is supposed to be a bosskiller, take it to Platinum and this will not take you far.
 
.....


I have tried it once on Plat in conjuntion with Dunvi using the Human Adept.  Needless to say she stomped me into the ground on an off-day.

 

Wrong. Smash is absolutely fantastic on Platinum. You just have to know the map and the spawns well. I love playing the Phoenixdept on Plat. Your lack of experience is telling.

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 06 janvier 2013 - 02:42 .

[Feneckus]

MrScottBear wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

The DOT evolution sucks. You're better off choosing the biotic effect so you can advantage of warp rounds.

Feel free to give an actual reason why a stackable DoT effect is bad.

If you take the biotic evolution, you can have a weapon damage bonus if you have warp ammo (up to +100% at rank 4). So you end up doing a lot more damage.

[Ledgend1221]

The damage evolution is great for spawn nuking with singularity.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Dream-Maker wrote...

Yes there are better powers and combinations to kill bosses, and yes most of the time you can't count on smash alone to do the job (but honestly how many powers exactly do destroy bosses by themselves anyway ?) I can agree with that but saying that smash doesn't do its job as a boss killer is a false statement in my opinion.

What is true is that you can't use smash if any other enemies are around (unles hiding behind a wall) or you'll be medi-geling.  So yeah, a lot of powers do a better job on bosses,  and shooty classes certainly do.

The animation is too long and the cooldown is too long.  It really needs some damage reduction/invulnerability frames.

[Dream-Maker]

Feneckus wrote...

The DOT evolution sucks. You're better off choosing the biotic effect so you can advantage of warp rounds.

I use the biotic + warp ammo setup on my adept since he has so many ways to prime but I have the DOT evo on my vanguard. While it's true the biotic priming + warp ammo setup is indeed very powerful, I can tell by experience that the DOT setup it's very far from sucking. The combination of stacking DOTs boosted by the armor evo from smash and incendiary ammo is absolutely devastating on bosses.

Which one is better I have no idea. I have the feeling though that my vanguard does better than my adept on DPS, but he uses a Piranha while my adept has a Talon. So I guess it depends on the weapon you're using and if your character is more weapon damage oriented or more power damage oriented.

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

What is true is that you can't
use smash if any other enemies are around (unles hiding behind a wall)
or you'll be medi-geling.  So yeah, a lot of powers do a better job on
bosses,  and shooty classes certainly do.

The animation is too long and the cooldown is too long.  It really needs some damage reduction/invulnerability frames.

That is not true, there are many enemies that aren't shooting at you endlessly and every enemy has pauses you can exploit to smash safely. The game also has plenty of cover spots everywhere you can use while moving if necessary, you don't need to stay behind a wall all the time, just move smartly behind soft cover if needed. Even if you started smashing and enemies are shooting at you, you can roll cancel to stay safe at any time.

Smash indeed requires a lot of care to be used properly, but people really need to stop believing in the stupid myth that it's only useable behind a wall.

The animation can be cut by cancelling, and the cooldown is good enough to unload most short clip weapons of the game and reload during the animation of the next smash. This is perfect to reach optimal DPS while using the move, I'm pretty sure you would lose DPS in most cases if the CD just allowed you to use it right away, you're better off emptying your clip between smashes.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 06 janvier 2013 - 03:19 .

[mrcanada]

Air Quotes wrote...

Bhatair wrote...

It's limited, yeah but I'd hardly say it sucks.

Don't use it on phantoms, for phantoms use singularity, they'll pop their bubble and stand in it allowing you to shoot them and strip their barrier, when their barrier is down they'll be lifted + lash to detonate = dead phantom. You can smash them but only through walls so they don't have LOS to use their bubble.

Though I'll agree that it does have drawbacks it far from sucks.

 

I don't have a freaking singularity. I have Charge. And I want to follow up wiith a strong attack. Which gets blocked.  

It sucks COMPARED to Biotic Slash. 

 

Your heavy melee staggers consistently and is a great setup for Smash after charge.

[Road Wulf]

The only things about this power that has ever needed to change was extending the range by a bit and upping the original max targets hit by 1.

[megabeast37215]

I think Air Quotes is smokin' the pot.....

[Hiero Glyph]

Feneckus wrote...

The DOT evolution sucks. You're better off choosing the biotic effect so you can advantage of warp rounds.

So you are saying that Warp rounds are required to make the Biotic evolution superior, not that the Electric evolution sucks; got it.  If you could purchase Warp ammo whenever you wanted then this strategy would be viable 100% of the time.  As you cannot, the Electric evolution is still effective for all of the situations where Warp ammo is not being used.

I always enjoy reading about builds that rely on things like Cyclonic Modulator IV's or Incediary ammo to be domiant.  In truth, the build itself is not effective, the consumables are.

[Flambrose]

Feneckus wrote...

MrScottBear wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

The DOT evolution sucks. You're better off choosing the biotic effect so you can advantage of warp rounds.

Feel free to give an actual reason why a stackable DoT effect is bad.

If you take the biotic evolution, you can have a weapon damage bonus if you have warp ammo (up to +100% at rank 4). So you end up doing a lot more damage.

The adept can prime with Singularity. Electric Damage still does more than biotic damage with smash by itself.

[megabeast37215]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

The DOT evolution sucks. You're better off choosing the biotic effect so you can advantage of warp rounds.

So you are saying that Warp rounds are required to make the Biotic evolution superior, not that the Electric evolution sucks; got it.  If you could purchase Warp ammo whenever you wanted then this strategy would be viable 100% of the time.  As you cannot, the Electric evolution is still effective for all of the situations where Warp ammo is not being used.

I always enjoy reading about builds that rely on things like Cyclonic Modulator IV's or Incediary ammo to be domiant.  In truth, the build itself is not effective, the consumables are.

Wrong. Some people (like me) have infinite consumables and factor them into their builds. Its just another modifier to tinker with... like fitness or the passives. Check out my N7HQ and tell me I cant build around consumables.

[Teratoid]

Flambrose wrote...

The adept can prime with Singularity. Electric Damage still does more than biotic damage with smash by itself.

Is that counting Electrical's DoT?

[GAMEofDEATH-PS3]

If your gonna list the Cons you can alteast list the Pros.
Its really not that bad. Truth be told its not meant to just kill
everything you know, and its a nice crowd pleaser with the right
bonuses and weapon it has perfect synergy that lets you do some
nice attacks with it. Not exactly easy for the enemies to dodge either.
Can dance all day around most bosses with it.

Before you blame a move or think it needs to be nerfed or "buffed" make sure
you actually make a strong honest effort and attempt to use different
builds/wpns/bonuses. Cause everything isnt made equal and some abilites
are just meant to be a side dish not a main course.