235 réponses à ce sujet

[Hiero Glyph]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Wrong. Some people (like me) have infinite consumables and factor them into their builds. Its just another modifier to tinker with... like fitness or the passives. Check out my N7HQ and tell me I cant build around consumables.

Unlimited is a bit of an overstatement.  Also, we're not talking about 1's and 2's, but 3's and ideally 4's, which in particular are only acquired from 60k and 99k packs.  At most you get 2 consumables and cannot even count on getting enough of a specific type to use it for every game.  Sure, you can use different classes and switch the consumable being used, but you have to actively save specific consumables for specific builds.  Even if you play only Platinum, you are making enough credits to purchase 1-2 of the premium packs per match completion, which is not guaranteed.  Add in the random chance of getting any type and you will eventually run out of consumables to use unless you actually save them from time to time.  To claim that you have an unlimited supply is just wrong (or you are spending real money to maintain it).

EDIT:  Your unlimited supply of Cyclonic Modulator 3's and 4's is running low; you should go buy more.  By the way, this is exactly my point; thank you for providing the evidence to prove it even with your monumental supply of consumables.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 06 janvier 2013 - 10:41 .

[IllusiveManJr]

I will christen this... The Smash Summit Controversy.

[Major Durza]

Apologies for the resurrection, but I have the need to reply to two posters.

Dream-Maker wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

I have not heard of Smash having a DOT effect, ever.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that there is no DOT.  Perhaps for the tech combo evo?

If you did not know that, then no wonder why we couldn't quite understand each other. Yes, the tech evo is a 50% DOT that lasts for 7.5 seconds and can stack multiple times. It's what makes smash powerful against bosses especially combined with the barrier and armor damage evo. Also allows to kill many smaller enemies in one cast.  That's why I was refering to in my very first post in this thread when I said the power stacked with itself.

Also for the rest of your post, you say you have to wait for CD between smashes. That's true but unless you're really under heavy fire (in which case you shouldn't even be using smash in the open in the first place) you can and should actually shoot to continue your DPS using right hand advantage and soft cover if needed.

Especially in the case of the vanguard you can smash, circle around enemies when shooting, occasionnaly meleeing when in need for DR and when your cooldowns are back smash again or charge if you need shields, that's how I play my vanguard at least personnaly.

Ah, I did not know that.  That helps quite a bit, I will certainly give that a try on the Vanguard.  I think the biotic evo may go well with the adept though, I might go for a more CC-ish build by taking the radius rank 6 evo on him since I have never used Smash for bosskilling.
I apoligize for my previous stubborness
In that light a CD buff would make it likely too powerful, but then again I was not using an optimal setup.  Even the few PUG pheonixes took biotic evos that I have seen, so it is rather far from an obvious evo.
So much like the Alcolyte, this is underestimatedly powerful.
I'll have to more carefully consider what would be good buff options, but with this evo he likely kills bosses much more easily than I would have thought otherwise.  Thanks.

HolyAvenger wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

Smash is supposed to be a bosskiller, take it to Platinum and this will not take you far. 
 
.....


I have tried it once on Plat in conjuntion with Dunvi using the Human Adept.  Needless to say she stomped me into the ground on an off-day.

 

Wrong. Smash is absolutely fantastic on Platinum. You just have to know the map and the spawns well. I love playing the Phoenixdept on Plat. Your lack of experience is telling.

I agree that I am very inexperienced at Platinum.
I am far from an excellent player.  I only recently really took Platinum seriously, and I am still looking for choices for Platinum that are not blatantly obvious (TSo, Destroyer, Havoc, Trooper, Demolisher, QME, Slayer, Kroguard, SI, QMI, TGI etc).  I believe I had a few games with Stardusk on a particularly off-day, he can attest to my current inexperience.
I've been getting better.

As I said earlier in this, I think I am due for a respec at any rate.  PA Biotic, Recharge, and Radius for dealing with Hunters and the like, or keeping them off their feet at least.  A sort of medicre CC
Vanguard for DOT, damage/recharge(depending on if the increased damage outweighs recharge for stacking DOT or charging later) and armor damage.
So, IDK.  I would love to see it become more survivable, cooldown friendly, and a bit more of a CC utility.

I absolutely loved the PA before the smash nerf and singularity buff, you could string powers together almost endlessly to keep the enemy off balance.  Smash, singularity, lash, dead things and the like.
Right now he feels really clunky.  He is not paricularly tanky, Smash's range says CQC but offers little protection and a lot of exposure for that job while doing significant damage to few targets.  The overall cooldowns to his powers feel clunkily lengthy for a relatively squishy CQC character, and I think that is what's killing it for me.

I will test this DOT evo to see if it makes smash a good bosskiller.  If so, I might use these guys even more.  These are fun classes, do not get me wrong,  But I feel clunky and ineffective using them.

[HolyAvenger]

Major Durza wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Major Durza wrote...

Smash is supposed to be a bosskiller, take it to Platinum and this will not take you far. 
 
.....


I have tried it once on Plat in conjuntion with Dunvi using the Human Adept.  Needless to say she stomped me into the ground on an off-day.

 

Wrong. Smash is absolutely fantastic on Platinum. You just have to know the map and the spawns well. I love playing the Phoenixdept on Plat. Your lack of experience is telling.

I agree that I am very inexperienced at Platinum.

So why are you making judgements on whether abilities will work on that difficulty if you don't play it? I don't care how good a player you are, but really if you don't play a Phoenix character regularly on Plat it behooves you not make a call on whether Smash works on that difficulty.

Right now the ability is viable. Could it be better? Sure. The problem is right now the CD, damage etc is fine on the Adept, and poor for the Vanguard.

If only they could buff the Vanguard alone...

[darkpassenger2342]

so i should take the electric shock evo on the adept? ill give it a shot..
i didnt know it was really good, i usually just take it on the vanguard ( who i never play)

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 07 janvier 2013 - 11:31 .

[egueguen]

just like the electric slash is limited to 3 targets
why are ability like this limited to so few targets when it dosent even make sense in the game mecanics

[Dream-Maker]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

so i should take the electric shock evo on the adept? ill give it a shot..
i didnt know it was really good, i usually just take it on the vanguard ( who i never play)

Personally I prefer the biotic evo on the adept because that way you have 3 powers that can both prime and detonate BEs (AFAIK singularity can detonate with the explosion rank 6 evo).

I believe an electric evo build on the adept can work too but it would imply that you will have to rely on smash way more often to stack your damage. What makes the electric evo more appealing on the vanguard than on the adept IMO is that he has less ways to prime BEs in the first place, especially if you skip lash (which I do as I find it isn't really useful on him) and also because having a way to restore your shields with biotic charge gives you a safety net for repeated smash use.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:45 .

[megabeast37215]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

Wrong. Some people (like me) have infinite consumables and factor them into their builds. Its just another modifier to tinker with... like fitness or the passives. Check out my N7HQ and tell me I cant build around consumables.

Unlimited is a bit of an overstatement.  Also, we're not talking about 1's and 2's, but 3's and ideally 4's, which in particular are only acquired from 60k and 99k packs.  At most you get 2 consumables and cannot even count on getting enough of a specific type to use it for every game.  Sure, you can use different classes and switch the consumable being used, but you have to actively save specific consumables for specific builds.  Even if you play only Platinum, you are making enough credits to purchase 1-2 of the premium packs per match completion, which is not guaranteed.  Add in the random chance of getting any type and you will eventually run out of consumables to use unless you actually save them from time to time.  To claim that you have an unlimited supply is just wrong (or you are spending real money to maintain it).

EDIT:  Your unlimited supply of Cyclonic Modulator 3's and 4's is running low; you should go buy more.  By the way, this is exactly my point; thank you for providing the evidence to prove it even with your monumental supply of consumables.

Unlimited is an overstatement, I admit.... but it's not too far off! The Cyclonics are used almost exclusively on Platinum.... Gold gets power amps, and some Plat builds get power amps too (Justicar, QME, BatSol, etc.)

It seems like you actually looked at my manifest... you gotta admit, I have alot of level IV stuff, and craploads of IIIs. I think I recently got over 200 level IV Disruptor ammo, been at 255 Cryo IV for awhile...

The only things I wish I had more of were Assault Rifle Rail Amp IIIs, Cyclonics III/IVs and AP ammo IVs... other than that... I could not buy a pack for a month+ and be fine. I've learned to love builds around Power Amps, Warp Rounds, Incendiary Rounds, Shield Power Cells, Adrenaline Mods, Sniper Rifles/Pistols, etc.

[HolyAvenger]

Dream-Maker wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

so i should take the electric shock evo on the adept? ill give it a shot..
i didnt know it was really good, i usually just take it on the vanguard ( who i never play)

Personally I prefer the biotic evo on the adept because that way you have 3 powers that can both prime and detonate BEs (AFAIK singularity can detonate with the explosion rank 6 evo).

I believe an electric evo build on the adept can work too but it would imply that you will have to rely on smash way more often to stack your damage. What makes the electric evo more appealing on the vanguard than on the adept IMO is that he has less ways to prime BEs in the first place, especially if you skip lash (which I do as I find it isn't really useful on him) and also because having a way to restore your shields with biotic charge gives you a safety net for repeated smash use.

Sounds reasoning, but I go the other way...Adept has no real way to detonate whatever Smash has primed (yes, Singularity, I know...but I've usually got that on the other side of the room, killing a phantom with its DoT or something) whereas Vanguard can Smash-Charge. I spec for electrical DoT on my Adept and BE priming on my Vanguard.

[HinDae]

I say if anything it could use a minor range buff, Bioware seem to have forgotten the Pheonix is a squishy chap, and left him completely exposed in between Smash uses.

With more range we'd be able to keep some distance while still being able to use it, right now its usually

>Hit Smash
>Prepare whips
>Die because squishiness

They could even implement DR while hes launching the power, say 25 - 30%

[MELTOR]

IDK I like Smash. It destroys Reapers. Brutes go down with one hit + a shot or two of a weapon.

On the flip side, everyone I've seen always recommends that a Slayer skip out of biotic slash, or at least put a minimum amount of points in it.

[Dream-Maker]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Sounds reasoning, but I go the other way...Adept has no real way to detonate whatever Smash has primed (yes, Singularity, I know...but I've usually got that on the other side of the room, killing a phantom with its DoT or something) whereas Vanguard can Smash-Charge. I spec for electrical DoT on my Adept and BE priming on my Vanguard.

Lash detonates smash perfectly well for any target that is not armored.

On bosses if you have a singularity specced for the smallest duration and explosion it works perfectly as a detonator for smash long as the boss has enough HP and stays relatively close to the singularity for the whole duration. It usually goes something like singularity, shoots, smash, BE, shoots, smash, shoots, singularity detonates, BE, etc...

But despite my preferences, I think that both choices are viable on both characters anyway, depends on your spec with the other powers and your playstyle. People can say whatever they want of smash, at least it can be specced in various ways and still be effective if used properly, which isn't something that can be said for many powers in this game.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:11 .

[HolyAvenger]

Dream-Maker wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Sounds reasoning, but I go the other way...Adept has no real way to detonate whatever Smash has primed (yes, Singularity, I know...but I've usually got that on the other side of the room, killing a phantom with its DoT or something) whereas Vanguard can Smash-Charge. I spec for electrical DoT on my Adept and BE priming on my Vanguard.

Lash detonates smash perfectly well for any target that is not armored.

On bosses if you have a singularity specced for the smallest duration and explosion it works perfectly as a detonator for smash long as the boss has enough HP and stays put for the duration. It usually goes something like singularity, shoots, smash, BE, shoots, smash, shoots, singularity detonates, BE, etc...

But I think both choices are viable on both characters anyway, depends on your spec with the other powers and playstyle.

Smash on a non-armoured target? Nope. All my nope. I tend to lead with Singularity or an Acolyte shot + Singularity. That's enough to kill anything, even phantoms.

Yeah I prefer damage and duration on singularity for the DoT. But agree that either spec can work depending on playstyle.

I have some Phoenixdept Plat gameplay uploaded on Youtube if anyone cares to see how Singularity, Lash and Smash go together...my take on it, of course.

[Herbasaurusrex]

Biotic slash is the most op power in the game. What biotic power doesn't suck campared to bio slash? The only ones that can even compete are anihilation field and dark channel.

I think smash should be able to hit more d00ds and more dmg would be cool but not necessary.

I hate it when people compare 2 things aren't comparable and expect everthing to perform like the best in its category. At least smash isn't painfully out classed like the krysae and friends.

[Feneckus]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Smash on a non-armoured target? Nope. All my nope.

Smash + Talon Headshot = Dead phantom

A LOT faster than Acolyte + Singularity.

[d_nought]

Feneckus wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Smash on a non-armoured target? Nope. All my nope.

Smash + Talon Headshot = Dead phantom

A LOT faster than Acolyte + Singularity.

I thought you hated Phoenix...

[HolyAvenger]

Feneckus wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Smash on a non-armoured target? Nope. All my nope.

Smash + Talon Headshot = Dead phantom

A LOT faster than Acolyte + Singularity.

Eh. If you have the Acolyte pre-charged, its a lot easier and less risky to go with Singularity. Plus the DoT might kill slowly but she's incapacitated while it does so it doesn't really matter. Follow up with a second Acolyte shot, if you feel like. I tend to walk away and start killing something else.

Frankly I just don't like wasting the Smash animation and CD on a pest target like a Phantom.

Besides, he was talking about a Smash-Lash combo, which would take longer than that Talon headshot.

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:20 .

[ParatrooperSean]

It certainly does suck compared to Biotic Slash. With no invulnerability frames and a long animation you have to be very careful about when and where you use it. Humans Phoenix's are on the squishy side and Smah has no range.

Still, there are worse powers than Smah.

[Tankcommander]

I think we need to look at it in conjunction with Smash and/or Singularity, at which point the combo is ridiculously powerful at nuking spawns and such. I see the points as a comparison vs Slash, but the Slayer has nothing to prime with, nor can he lash Gold/Plat Phantoms to him to finish them off with a single Smash. My Phoenix Adept is one of my best platinum characters, but then I'm told I'm just really good with him, so I'm not sure if he's just really good and most people can't figure him out, or I just found a build and playstyle that really works on an otherwise ok class.

Edit: Come to think of it, I think build has a lot to do with it. I'm especially good at taking out Phantoms/anything lower since I blast them with Graal to stun them for lash, which pulls them in and primes them, at which point a Radius specced Smash easily dispatches them. I think a main problem is most people don't work in Lash alongside Smash, which I believe is how the Phoenix is intended to be played. After all, we often judge character effectiveness by their power synergy, of which the Phoenix Adept (in my opinion) has perhaps the best synergy of all. He's FANTASTIC at crowd control, and specced for piercing lash, is also great at higher level mooks and Phantoms. Finally, while is tempting to compare them to Dragoons and see them as weaker, the comparison isn't fair - Dragoons don't have lash, singularity, or biotic charge (well, running charge is better imo, but I hate BC).

Modifié par Tankcommander, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:07 .

[genomandril]

So, how do you spec the adept? For phoenix suckers.

[KiraTsukasa]

Smash doesn't suck.

It blows...

...Phantoms to the other side of the map.

It's basically a lulz power.

[Tankcommander]

genomandril wrote...

So, how do you spec the adept? For phoenix suckers.

http://narida.pytalh...9^9HE@@N4K4T4U4 (The computer I am on doesn't like the site, so use my sig link if it doesn't work.)

Graal is powerful, but keeps the recharge time down, and opens Phantoms up to Lash. If you just lash them, they'll block it, but if you hit them with Graal while casting lash, then they will get staggered and you will pull them in, where you'll finish them with Smash.

[HolyAvenger]

 I run 66653 Hurricane/Acolyte. Works out like this 

Build: narida.pytalhost.com/me3/classes/#Adept/ExCerberus/OORID/Acolyte10AJ5BA5/Hurricane1BB5AU5/SMGRailAmp3/CyclonicModulator4/StrongholdPackage5/

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 08 janvier 2013 - 12:42 .

[PerplexedSquirrel]

Tankcommander wrote...

I think we need to look at it in conjunction with Smash and/or Singularity, at which point the combo is ridiculously powerful at nuking spawns and such. I see the points as a comparison vs Slash, but the Slayer has nothing to prime with, nor can he lash Gold/Plat Phantoms to him to finish them off with a single Smash. My Phoenix Adept is one of my best platinum characters, but then I'm told I'm just really good with him, so I'm not sure if he's just really good and most people can't figure him out, or I just found a build and playstyle that really works on an otherwise ok class.

Edit: Come to think of it, I think build has a lot to do with it. I'm especially good at taking out Phantoms/anything lower since I blast them with Graal to stun them for lash, which pulls them in and primes them, at which point a Radius specced Smash easily dispatches them. I think a main problem is most people don't work in Lash alongside Smash, which I believe is how the Phoenix is intended to be played. After all, we often judge character effectiveness by their power synergy, of which the Phoenix Adept (in my opinion) has perhaps the best synergy of all. He's FANTASTIC at crowd control, and specced for piercing lash, is also great at higher level mooks and Phantoms. Finally, while is tempting to compare them to Dragoons and see them as weaker, the comparison isn't fair - Dragoons don't have lash, singularity, or biotic charge (well, running charge is better imo, but I hate BC).

I agree with the top part.  Smash and singularity might not have any combo boost between them, but the damage of 6+6 explosion on top of smash is impressive even in platinum.  Work in the possiblity of another explosion or a melee cancel and you end up with something devastating.

I still don't get the insistence on lash by a lot of people.  Singularity handles most enemies lash does in addition to the priming effect and I find it's much quicker to simply squeeze a few warp ammo'ed high damage pistol of your choice (I like paladin but scorpion, talon, or even carni would be fine).

Unfortunately, this mostly applies to adept.  Frankly, phoenix vanguard needs a little fixing.  Just give both of them some of these things.

1.  Up starting shields/ health and/or fitness.  Nothing heavy, maybe a 10-20% increase, maybe a little lopsided to shields in terms of starting shields to help charge..  It's fine that It's never made any sense that some of the most in your face style, armored looking biotic users would have the same fortitude as an asari (less so in the case of justicar) or a fury. 

2.  Redesign lash...somehow.  I think we've all gotten past it being a barely useable version of pull.  No one ever cared back when singularity was a barely useable stasis bubble.
-  Do away with the absurd animation.  Lowers dps unreasonably and leaves user open.
-  Make it prime armored targets but not detonate, maybe even an alternate final evolution to fast recharge.  Or nix the fast recharge part and just make it an armor prime/det window evo.  This would massively increase it's synergy with the other skills and provide an actual option b for the final evo.

3.  Increase starting starting weight capacity.  Again, a modest change, but something that would help put the phoenix's above the rest of the human/asari in terms of "heavyness". Not as good as bat/kro/tur but that still leaves plenty of wiggle room.

These things would of course help adept two but vanguard would benefit more due to his likeliness to get hit and his sensitivity to recharge times.