330 réponses à ce sujet

[Icesong]

In Exile wrote...

Yes, and then you apologize, and you have a conversation about it.

Or you don't apologize, you don't have a conversation, and no one cares for long.

This is well-known from everyday life.

People sometimes react differently, especially when they don't know each other very well, if you are on the lower scale of social observation/social awareness.

But all of these can be corrected by discussing the misunderstading, and are corrected over time as people learn each other's manner.

If I decide a character of mine was misunderstood once it's not as if I've doomed them to being misunderstood forever. And if they were misunderstood it was most likely by an NPC I'll never have a conversation with again.

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
Yes, but that's the NPC's reaction. You make allowances for their mis-interpritation of your intention as you would in real life. You could tell a girl at work to pick up a pen and she might react nicely or nastily to that depending on her interpritation of how you said that - but either way you can't control her reaction.

Yes, and then you apologize, and you have a conversation about it. As a result of that interaction both of you learn more about your own social cues and demeanor, and future interactions are scaled differently - she (and you) would then now each other's manners better and better align your conversation.

Until you're able to do this as well (takeback and explanation) with a dialogue wheel pick, using it to dismiss the flexibility of non-explicit tone it is not a valid counter-argument.

Modifié par Xewaka, 10 janvier 2013 - 12:27 .

[Faust1979]

JMSLionheart wrote...

Dialogue wheel is not compatible with true RPG. The inmersion feels dumbed down when some icons explain the meaning of what some dude's voice is going to say.
I preffer the dialogue tree, very rich and appropiated for a RPG where you can choose your sentence and your imagination does the rest.

That's one of the reason why DA:O and Awakening are far better than DA 2 and next game, no matter what other changes they do to the graphics. The dialogue tree must return... Anyway, probably the reason why it doesn't return for DA 3 is because it takes time to design good dialogues (6 years of development for DA: O) instead of what they did with DA 2 (year and half). Those childish and inmature dialogues are a joke in comparision to Origins and Awakening (which were gray, dark and mature).

That's why I won't buy any Bioware game until they return to the dialogue tree.

As a person who grew up and played old RPGs like Ultima 2 or Feary tale Adventure I say leave the dialog tree in the past it's a relic. Modern RPGs are the things I dreamed about as a kid with full voice acting and I was wondered what it would be like if games were more cinematic. I don't really want to return to the old days.

[Viidicus]

Faust1979 wrote...

JMSLionheart wrote...

Dialogue wheel is not compatible with true RPG. The inmersion feels dumbed down when some icons explain the meaning of what some dude's voice is going to say.
I preffer the dialogue tree, very rich and appropiated for a RPG where you can choose your sentence and your imagination does the rest.

That's one of the reason why DA:O and Awakening are far better than DA 2 and next game, no matter what other changes they do to the graphics. The dialogue tree must return... Anyway, probably the reason why it doesn't return for DA 3 is because it takes time to design good dialogues (6 years of development for DA: O) instead of what they did with DA 2 (year and half). Those childish and inmature dialogues are a joke in comparision to Origins and Awakening (which were gray, dark and mature).

That's why I won't buy any Bioware game until they return to the dialogue tree.

As a person who grew up and played old RPGs like Ultima 2 or Feary tale Adventure I say leave the dialog tree in the past it's a relic. Modern RPGs are the things I dreamed about as a kid with full voice acting and I was wondered what it would be like if games were more cinematic. I don't really want to return to the old days.

however i believe you should be able to have both, Deus Ex was a good example of this -- or at least have an option that allows you to turn it on. 

[AppealToReason]

Yay, no more ending conversations early because my question was a conversation ender without seeming that way in the words but the one that I thought would end the conversation was just more investigating.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Xewaka wrote...

In Exile wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
Yes, but that's the NPC's reaction. You make allowances for their mis-interpritation of your intention as you would in real life. You could tell a girl at work to pick up a pen and she might react nicely or nastily to that depending on her interpritation of how you said that - but either way you can't control her reaction.

Yes, and then you apologize, and you have a conversation about it. As a result of that interaction both of you learn more about your own social cues and demeanor, and future interactions are scaled differently - she (and you) would then now each other's manners better and better align your conversation.

Until you're able to do this as well (takeback and explanation) with a dialogue wheel pick, using it to dismiss the flexibility of non-explicit tone it is not a valid counter-argument.

This^

In Exile - I think you've totally missed the context in which I've made my point. Go back to my very first post in this thread and you will see that I've said "The dialogue wheel itself isn't the problem, it is how it's implemented".

As Xewaka so finely points out it's implementation is not of the level yet which allows us to converse as we would in real life. therefore the best we can hope for currently is a system which reflects real life, but is practical enough to be implemented in a game.

The dialogue tree and non-voiced protagonist system allows the player freedom of imagination to compenstate for any "gaps" in conversation (examples which I've outlined in previous posts). By trying to fill these "gaps" by labeling and bracketing them it just kills that freedom, can cause conflicting messages and creates an issue. If done 100% to it's full potential then we'd be OK, but currently it is way off that and unfortunately to get there it would require loads more dialogue, money and time too.

Also, In general I believe RPG's much like fantasy novels should, IMO, allow the participant freedom to manouver mentaly and create a bit of the experience themselves. It's a great trick which has been used over centuries and makes adventures more personal for people. It doersn't always have to be the case, but I personally really enjoy it when it is.

Cstaf wrote...
Stop being such a drama queen. He is stating his opinion of what the point of an RPG is, he is not claiming it to be the universal truth for everyone.

AlanC9 wrote...
The guy did specify "to me" there, yep.

Thanks chaps. Reading In Exile's response to my post I thought I'd claimed to be master of the universe or something . Like you both say, I was just saying one of the reasons why I play and what I enjoy about RPGs

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:34 .

[Blight Nug]

I like that wheel gives us the tone of each response.
As long as the tone icon or description as well as the paraphrasing are accurate, I consider the "wheel" to be an improvement from the DAO system.

While the DAO system allowed a lot of imagination or head-cannon to for us the roleplay, it was frustrating that I did not know the tone of what I was saying. I know some gamers prefer this experience, as they may have the illusion of having more choice, but I prefer to know the tone of each sentence before I say anything.

One thing I do really hope they change about the wheel, is that they add more "icons", or just use words to describe the tone. In DA2, the fist icon stood for angry, ****, headstrong, decisive...etc at different moments. I think it was a huge mistake to generalize all those emotions using just a fist.

I also dislike the fact that if I use certain tones more often, my character's personality some how changes, and certain options are only available for some.

[zyntifox]

Since they are going to use paraphrases of the dialogue i hope they release a document similar to the document that helped me through DA2. The document was made by a player that had typed all the games paraphrases together with the full dialogue. So when you had a dialogue in DA2 you just do a quick search in the document and voilá. I know it is not optimal, although i didn't really mind it, but it did help keeping me interested enough in the game to finish it. And in my opinion it sure beats constantly staring at the loading screen and replaying sections of the game due to character breaking dialogue.

[Fallstar]

Paraphrases have always been my biggest problem with DA2.

If I don't know what my character is going to say, then how can I be expected to pick the correct dialogue option for my character? I don't want to be surprised when I'm picking dialogue options. Any 'surprise' element should come in from the NPCs reactions to my dialogue, not from me having only a vague idea what my PC is on about.

Having gone from the near perfect system in Origins to a system only ME3 did worse is extremely frustrating.

[Uccio]

I don't like to discuss with tones. Atleast each tone should have three sub answers, positive, neutral, negative. And I want to know what my pc is going to say. I can't remember how many times I had to reload in DA2 because Hawke went my little pony, herp derp or grrrrr and I cursed and said " thats not what I meant!".

[nightcobra]

 

... how about this?

mainly action choices throughout the game with tone or intent as vague as possible. (with a little of tone choices scattered in between)

then in special scenes we get to use the tone choices to justify our choices to a disgruntled NPC or better yet justifying our choices to yourself when having conversation to the mirror after a very hard action choice.

this approach could help by limiting that exponencial growth in PC dialogue of tones and action choices for every situation which is unfeasable due to budget limits. 

[Pelle6666]

I've said this before and I'll say it again; if they are going to copy the dialog system from Mass effect then take it all the way! Copy the system from ME2, with renegade/paragon choices and interruptions and at least three options plus investigation questions.
The weird indication symbols that changed from dialog to dialog made no sense and served no purpose more than taking focus from what the character is actually saying.
ME2 dialog system FTW!

[zyntifox]

Pelle6666 wrote...

I've said this before and I'll say it again; if they are going to copy the dialog system from Mass effect then take it all the way! Copy the system from ME2, with renegade/paragon choices and interruptions and at least three options plus investigation questions.
The weird indication symbols that changed from dialog to dialog made no sense and served no purpose more than taking focus from what the character is actually saying.
ME2 dialog system FTW!

I think that is a bad idea. One of the few gripes i have with that series is its dialogue system. Choices shouldn't be boiled down to them either being paragon or renegade. If i want my character to be a "renegade" (whatever that means) i should interpret the dialogue choices and choose whatever the character i am roleplaying would consider to be "renegadish".

And the interupt system is an awful system in a RPG game. How am i supposed to make an informed decision whether the character i am roleplaying should do something when a) it is not clear what he/she will do and it is timed. If they should have something similar to that in DA they should pause the game and show:

Press R2: Punch annoying farmer
Press L2: Do nothing

That would be a good system. That would create more chances of roleplaying without the risk of the character doing something out of character, which in my opinion ME interupts constantly does.

[xsdob]

Bioware should abandon it's new system of dialogue that offers more options than traditional tree dialogue lines with no real downsides and instead do something revolutionary and different from everyone else, like going back to the old system that everyone else uses.

RPG logic, I don't get you.

[zyntifox]

Yes, showing paraphrases instead of the full line and displaying them in a circle instead of in rows clearly is revolutionary. Look, i get and understand why people may favor the wheel but claiming it is revolutionary is a stretch.

Some people, i being one of them, consider roleplaying a character without full information when choosing dialogue hard or impossible. And if you can roleplay under those circumstances i am very envious of you since you get to roleplay in the top quality stories that Bioware consistently produces. For me it is just a shame that i can no longer roleplay in a Bioware game since it has been the go-to-developer for me when it comes to roleplaying since the late 90s.

[xsdob]

Cstaf wrote...

Yes, showing paraphrases instead of the full line and displaying them in a circle instead of in rows clearly is revolutionary. Look, i get and understand why people may favor the wheel but claiming it is revolutionary is a stretch.

Some people, i being one of them, consider roleplaying a character without full information when choosing dialogue hard or impossible. And if you can roleplay under those circumstances i am very envious of you since you get to roleplay in the top quality stories that Bioware consistently produces. For me it is just a shame that i can no longer roleplay in a Bioware game since it has been the go-to-developer for me when it comes to roleplaying since the late 90s.

Why don't you just learn how to rp using the wheel? As harsh as that sounds it sounds kind of true to me. It seems like complaining that you can no longer drive a car, becuase they're all automatics and you only know how to drive transmission. That's your choice, but everything shouldn't revery back to the more limited and less effective system of dialouge simply because it's better for a small group of people as opposed to a much larger group.

Though I am sorry you feel you can't play bioware games anymore, I really am, but I just don't emphasize with those feelings, if you get what I mean.

Haveing 2 seperate dialouge systems would be pretty good, but at the same time ridiculously expensive in terms of creating 2 different GUI's and making them both exist in the same game without interfereing with eachother.

[Silcron]

The wheel works really well in SWTOR. The paraphrasing is really good. I've never run into a problem with it. I can even tell if it's sarcastic, jokingly...without any special symbol like in DA2. And you can even hide the symbol for light or darkside actions so your decisions are only based on what you can read.

[zyntifox]

xsdob wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Yes, showing paraphrases instead of the full line and displaying them in a circle instead of in rows clearly is revolutionary. Look, i get and understand why people may favor the wheel but claiming it is revolutionary is a stretch.

Some people, i being one of them, consider roleplaying a character without full information when choosing dialogue hard or impossible. And if you can roleplay under those circumstances i am very envious of you since you get to roleplay in the top quality stories that Bioware consistently produces. For me it is just a shame that i can no longer roleplay in a Bioware game since it has been the go-to-developer for me when it comes to roleplaying since the late 90s.

Why don't you just learn how to rp using the wheel? As harsh as that sounds it sounds kind of true to me. It seems like complaining that you can no longer drive a car, becuase they're all automatics and you only know how to drive transmission. That's your choice, but everything shouldn't revery back to the more limited and less effective system of dialouge simply because it's better for a small group of people as opposed to a much larger group.

Though I am sorry you feel you can't play bioware games anymore, I really am, but I just don't emphasize with those feelings, if you get what I mean.

Haveing 2 seperate dialouge systems would be pretty good, but at the same time ridiculously expensive in terms of creating 2 different GUI's and making them both exist in the same game without interfereing with eachother.

Well the problem is that i don't know what the character is going to say so i can't make an informed decision in what dialogue to choose. So when i choose one dialogue and hear the character delievering it i start finding faults in what the character is saying. Then i start second guessing myself that maybe the other choice was better and i end up reloading.

And i don't know what you are basing the assertion that the dialogue wheel is more effective than the tree, i consider them just different. How do you measure efficiency in a dialogue system anyway? And i would argue that my group is bigger than the dialogue wheel group. Not because we are smarter, prettier and all-knowing but because it's a system that has been around much longer.

[xsdob]

Cstaf wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Yes, showing paraphrases instead of the full line and displaying them in a circle instead of in rows clearly is revolutionary. Look, i get and understand why people may favor the wheel but claiming it is revolutionary is a stretch.

Some people, i being one of them, consider roleplaying a character without full information when choosing dialogue hard or impossible. And if you can roleplay under those circumstances i am very envious of you since you get to roleplay in the top quality stories that Bioware consistently produces. For me it is just a shame that i can no longer roleplay in a Bioware game since it has been the go-to-developer for me when it comes to roleplaying since the late 90s.

Why don't you just learn how to rp using the wheel? As harsh as that sounds it sounds kind of true to me. It seems like complaining that you can no longer drive a car, becuase they're all automatics and you only know how to drive transmission. That's your choice, but everything shouldn't revery back to the more limited and less effective system of dialouge simply because it's better for a small group of people as opposed to a much larger group.

Though I am sorry you feel you can't play bioware games anymore, I really am, but I just don't emphasize with those feelings, if you get what I mean.

Haveing 2 seperate dialouge systems would be pretty good, but at the same time ridiculously expensive in terms of creating 2 different GUI's and making them both exist in the same game without interfereing with eachother.

Well the problem is that i don't know what the character is going to say so i can't make an informed decision in what dialogue to choose. So when i choose one dialogue and hear the character delievering it i start finding faults in what the character is saying. Then i start second guessing myself that maybe the other choice was better and i end up reloading.

And i don't know what you are basing the assertion that the dialogue wheel is more effective than the tree, i consider them just different. How do you measure efficiency in a dialogue system anyway? And i would argue that my group is bigger than the dialogue wheel group. Not because we are smarter, prettier and all-knowing but because it's a system that has been around much longer.

I consider it better because it can house more options. BIoware had created a system in which you can quickly go through 6 or more responses with ease while compacting it all down into an easy to use interface. Sort of like the dragonage power wheel in origins. And how it allows you to use multiple powers without the need to scroll through the pause menu and select them manually.

Thats my view on it, but I saw the wheel capalbe of holding 9 different options at once at a part of the game in ME3, the farewell scene on earth where you contact your crew for the last time with the hologram, which is something I don't remember the line system of dialouge being able to do.

[zyntifox]

xsdob wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Yes, showing paraphrases instead of the full line and displaying them in a circle instead of in rows clearly is revolutionary. Look, i get and understand why people may favor the wheel but claiming it is revolutionary is a stretch.

Some people, i being one of them, consider roleplaying a character without full information when choosing dialogue hard or impossible. And if you can roleplay under those circumstances i am very envious of you since you get to roleplay in the top quality stories that Bioware consistently produces. For me it is just a shame that i can no longer roleplay in a Bioware game since it has been the go-to-developer for me when it comes to roleplaying since the late 90s.

Why don't you just learn how to rp using the wheel? As harsh as that sounds it sounds kind of true to me. It seems like complaining that you can no longer drive a car, becuase they're all automatics and you only know how to drive transmission. That's your choice, but everything shouldn't revery back to the more limited and less effective system of dialouge simply because it's better for a small group of people as opposed to a much larger group.

Though I am sorry you feel you can't play bioware games anymore, I really am, but I just don't emphasize with those feelings, if you get what I mean.

Haveing 2 seperate dialouge systems would be pretty good, but at the same time ridiculously expensive in terms of creating 2 different GUI's and making them both exist in the same game without interfereing with eachother.

Well the problem is that i don't know what the character is going to say so i can't make an informed decision in what dialogue to choose. So when i choose one dialogue and hear the character delievering it i start finding faults in what the character is saying. Then i start second guessing myself that maybe the other choice was better and i end up reloading.

And i don't know what you are basing the assertion that the dialogue wheel is more effective than the tree, i consider them just different. How do you measure efficiency in a dialogue system anyway? And i would argue that my group is bigger than the dialogue wheel group. Not because we are smarter, prettier and all-knowing but because it's a system that has been around much longer.

I consider it better because it can house more options. BIoware had created a system in which you can quickly go through 6 or more responses with ease while compacting it all down into an easy to use interface. Sort of like the dragonage power wheel in origins. And how it allows you to use multiple powers without the need to scroll through the pause menu and select them manually.

Thats my view on it, but I saw the wheel capalbe of holding 9 different options at once at a part of the game in ME3, the farewell scene on earth where you contact your crew for the last time with the hologram, which is something I don't remember the line system of dialouge being able to do.

Well doesn't BG2 have a situation where you have 17 responses on the same page? Maybe it is because i am old but i don't put value on being able to quickly go through responses. For me conversation isn't a race

Modifié par Cstaf, 10 janvier 2013 - 08:53 .

[Fast Jimmy]

 I'll post this, but with the caveat that I believe this was actually a screenshot of a BG mod, not the vanilla version of the game:

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 10 janvier 2013 - 09:02 .

[mousestalker]

What if they do not use the stupid dialogue wheel, but use a clever dialogue wheel instead? Would that answer most of the objections?

[zyntifox]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

 I'll post this, but with the caveat that I believe this was actually a screenshot of a BG mod, not the vanilla version of the game:

It's been many years since i've played BG2, which the enhanced edition will remedy when it comes out, but if i remember correctly the 17 choices at once is during the riddle in Spellhold maze. I might be wrong though.

[Redbelle]

Viidicus wrote...

 if so, why?

The dialogue wheel is so vague and annoying, the only time dialogue wheel is good is if you can mouse over the selected options to see what the PC is going to say word for word

I'm of the same mind.

The Dialogue Wheel for ME was a good innovation for that franchise. But I feel that DA owes more to D&D and fighting fantasy books and those text based adventure games.

The wheel is good for getting through dialogue, fast! And when it came to the story I didn't mind seeing as it was a sci-fi space opera. But in DA:O, the text tree was more in keeping with the swords and sorcery approach to the material.

The Text Tree also let me see what would be said so I could choose the best path for my character to pursue. There are times when the wheel is not clear as to the context of which the dialogue option chosen will emerge. Case in point - My Renegade refused to give David's brother any information on his survival, seeing as it was a really mean thing to do to the guy who tortured him. The brother's response? He walked off through an invisible door off camera and shot himself! I didn'tmean for it to do that!!!