211 réponses à ce sujet

[fiendishchicken]

dreman9999 wrote...
You're not getting the concept the the issue of free will is an issue of how much discipline that person has. Not every has the same level of discipline. Since they don't not everyone has the same level of free will. Only the most discipline mind have the most self determinism.


The concept of astate of mind is a strong basis in a court of law. You may not like it, but it is considered when making judgement.


You need to understand that humanity is an animal too that need to train themselse to control themselves. Are animal nature is what limits our free will.

And? That's unless they're mentally handicapped (or have a reasonable proof of a disorder), the fact that they're not disciplined doesn't factor at all.

An uneducated, illiterate 18 year old from a poor, crime ridden neighborhood that commits robbery is still committing robbery. I should go easy on him because he's from the wrong side of the tracks? 

Or a woman who kills her husband and his lover because she discovered their affair. She may have been absolutely emotionally distraught. I'm still going to lock her up for life. She didn't have to shoot her husband. She made the choice to pick up the gun.

Discipline doesn't dictate how much freewill you have. It only affects how you use it. Everyone that isn't handicapped has the same amount of choice, regardless of background, education, discipline, etc.

You're looking at it wrong. Biologically, yes we are living organisms no different from a dog, or a cat, or a monkey. But we have the ability to self-diferentiate, to use language, to use abstract thought to communicate idea's. We're more than just animals. We're the most highly evolved and advanced form of life on Earth. The closest other animal species to us is a chimpanzee. Technologically, while we explore and make observations of the known universe with high tech satellites and space probes, the closest other species is using a rock to crack open a nut. Our 'primitive animal nature' has been proven time and again to be overruled and overcome by much more significant and complex thought processes unique to humans. 

We must be held to a certain standard.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:45 .

[KotorEffect3]

garrusfan1 wrote...

How do people get kaiden would choose synthesis why and to that guy who said talk would pick destroy or synthesis sorry she would only pick destroy

As his class is sentinel Kaiden's already synthesis (jk)  I don't know I think he might pick synthesis because nobody dies.  He does seem kind of soft like that.  I don't see him picking control though.

As far as Tali goes sure ME 1, ME 2, and even some of ME 3 Tali might have only picked destroy.  But at the end of ME 2 she did meet Legion and came to realize there is more to the Geth than she realized.  Of course she didn't embrace Legion overnight but overtime she started overcoming some of her prejudices against the Geth.  By the end of the Rannoch arc if Shepard manages to negotiate peace between the Geth and the Quarians she admits she was in the wrong.  She also mentions that some Quarians even let the geth upload themselves into their suits to jumpstart their immune systems.  Some of the quarians and the geth are already doing synthesis.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:47 .

[dreman9999]

fiendishchicken wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You're not getting the concept the the issue of free will is an issue of how much discipline that person has. Not every has the same level of discipline. Since they don't not everyone has the same level of free will. Only the most discipline mind have the most self determinism.


The concept of astate of mind is a strong basis in a court of law. You may not like it, but it is considered when making judgement.


You need to understand that humanity is an animal too that need to train themselse to control themselves. Are animal nature is what limits our free will.

And? That's unless they're mentally handicapped (or have a reasonable proof of a disorder), the fact that they're not disciplined doesn't factor at all.

An uneducated, illiterate 18 year old from a poor, crime ridden neighborhood that commits robbery is still committing robbery. I should go easy on him because he's from the wrong side of the tracks? 

Or a woman who kills her husband and his lover because she discovered their affair. She may have been absolutely emotionally distraught. I'm still going to lock her up for life. She didn't have to shoot her husband. She made the choice to pick up the gun.

Discipline doesn't dictate how much freewill you have. It only affects how you use it. Everyone that isn't handicapped has the same amount of choice, regardless of background, education, discipline, etc.

You're looking at it wrong. Biologically, yes we are living organisms no different from a dog, or a cat, or a monkey. But we have the ability to self-diferentiate, to use language, to use abstract thought to communicate idea's. We're more than just animals. We're the most highly evolved and advanced form of life on Earth. The closest other animal species to us is a chimpanzee. Technologically, while we explore and make observations of the known universe with high tech satellites and space probes, the closest other species is using a rock to crack open a nut. Our 'primitive animal nature' has been proven time and again to be overruled and overcome by much more significant and complex thought processes unique to humans. 

We must be held to a certain standard.

1.You look too much out of extreme cases. What about cased of extreme proverty, dieses, orbrain washing. Like the samalia pirate who take it up to servive , or a person living in a poor area that is force to join a gang?

2.Of coure Discipline dictates hoiw much free will you have. That is the bases of self control. With out discipline you have no self control. This is taught to children.

3.Your still not getting my point. The reason why are insicts don't blindly control us is becauseof self control. We only have this with discipline. Take the time to look at any child with out discipline and you can see how a person can lack self control. Now imagine a person allowed to grow up with put it. That is not a pretty picture.

Discipline,self taught or taught by others, is the key ingediant to self control.This is the bread and butter of any military training.
If free will is 100% about self control then that means Discpline is the key nessiary thing to have self control. 
 Your not getting that everyone can be held by the same standard.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:59 .

[Epique Phael767]

Pretty sure all of the would have picked destroy after all the trouble they had previously went through seeking that result.

[HiddenInWar]

ZacTB wrote...

What about people like Aria, Nyreen, Joker, Kelly Chambers, Traynor?

I think Aria would Control, Nyreen would Destroy (definitely not Control, possibly Synthesis) and Joker would choose Synthesis. Not sure about the last two, Traynor would probably Destroy due to her anger at the Reapers or something like that.

Why would joker choose synthesis after having his family members killed?

[KotorEffect3]

HiddenInWar wrote...

ZacTB wrote...

What about people like Aria, Nyreen, Joker, Kelly Chambers, Traynor?

I think Aria would Control, Nyreen would Destroy (definitely not Control, possibly Synthesis) and Joker would choose Synthesis. Not sure about the last two, Traynor would probably Destroy due to her anger at the Reapers or something like that.

Why would joker choose synthesis after having his family members killed?

Um do you have to ask?  You miss him and EDI in ME 3 or something?

[HiddenInWar]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

ZacTB wrote...

What about people like Aria, Nyreen, Joker, Kelly Chambers, Traynor?

I think Aria would Control, Nyreen would Destroy (definitely not Control, possibly Synthesis) and Joker would choose Synthesis. Not sure about the last two, Traynor would probably Destroy due to her anger at the Reapers or something like that.

Why would joker choose synthesis after having his family members killed?

Um do you have to ask?  You miss him and EDI in ME 3 or something?

I know but...choosing your robot girlfriend over the galaxies consent and deceased family wouldn't be my first choice but to each their own I guess 

[dreman9999]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

ZacTB wrote...

What about people like Aria, Nyreen, Joker, Kelly Chambers, Traynor?

I think Aria would Control, Nyreen would Destroy (definitely not Control, possibly Synthesis) and Joker would choose Synthesis. Not sure about the last two, Traynor would probably Destroy due to her anger at the Reapers or something like that.

Why would joker choose synthesis after having his family members killed?

Um do you have to ask?  You miss him and EDI in ME 3 or something?

Joker would pick control.

[KotorEffect3]

HiddenInWar wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

ZacTB wrote...

What about people like Aria, Nyreen, Joker, Kelly Chambers, Traynor?

I think Aria would Control, Nyreen would Destroy (definitely not Control, possibly Synthesis) and Joker would choose Synthesis. Not sure about the last two, Traynor would probably Destroy due to her anger at the Reapers or something like that.

Why would joker choose synthesis after having his family members killed?

Um do you have to ask?  You miss him and EDI in ME 3 or something?

I know but...choosing your robot girlfriend over the galaxies consent and deceased family wouldn't be my first choice but to each their own I guess 

Well you aren't Joker.  I am not saying I agree with Synthesis but I can see why Joker would pick it  Not to mention Synthesis would probably help cure his brittle bone diseases

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 06 janvier 2013 - 09:21 .

[dreman9999]

HiddenInWar wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

ZacTB wrote...

What about people like Aria, Nyreen, Joker, Kelly Chambers, Traynor?

I think Aria would Control, Nyreen would Destroy (definitely not Control, possibly Synthesis) and Joker would choose Synthesis. Not sure about the last two, Traynor would probably Destroy due to her anger at the Reapers or something like that.

Why would joker choose synthesis after having his family members killed?

Um do you have to ask?  You miss him and EDI in ME 3 or something?

I know but...choosing your robot girlfriend over the galaxies consent and deceased family wouldn't be my first choice but to each their own I guess 

I think someone who lost alot would be tired of losing people. EDI dieing because of killing the reaper s would be more lose.
He would pick control.

[fiendishchicken]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.You look too much out of extreme cases. What about cased of extreme proverty, dieses, orbrain washing. Like the samalia pirate who take it up to servive , or a person living in a poor area that is force to join a gang?

2.Of coure Discipline dictates hoiw much free will you have. That is the bases of self control. With out discipline you have no self control. This is taught to children.

3.Your still not getting my point. The reason why are insicts don't blindly control us is becauseof self control. We only have this with discipline. Take the time to look at any child with out discipline and you can see how a person can lack self control. Now imagine a person allowed to grow up with put it. That is not a pretty picture.

Discipline,self taught or taught by others, is the key ingediant to self control.This is the bread and butter of any military training.
If free will is 100% about self control then that means Discpline is the key nessiary thing to have self control. 
 Your not getting that everyone can be held by the same standard.

All the people in extreme poverty that I saw in Afghanistan thought the idea of theft was utterly reprehensible. That's no excuse. I assume you mean disease (work on your spelling man). That's a bit grey, but it still doesn't help the case to steal medicine (consider that they are stealing from other people that need it too.) As for brain washing, that's usually against their will. Brain washing can be vague, but usually, it's hardly initiated with the recipient's consent. You rehabilitate them as best you can.

No one is forcing the pirates in Somalia to become pirates. That said, piracy is a capital offense, and a crime against humanity. Economic conditions may regretably lead people to take up that trade, but they earn the result. 

Same with gangs. Just because they are poor is no excuse to join a gang. If they are forced into it against their will against the punishment of death against themselves or their family, that's a bit different. But typically, gangs want their members to be fanatical and loyal to the gang and to the gang only. If the law catches up to them, they get what they deserve. 

I think you need to differentiate freewill and self-control. Discipline is the same as self-control, for the most part.
However, not having self-control does nothing to reduce the capacity for freewill, unless of course due to mental imbalance or impairment. Not being well disciplined is not an excuse for doing something stupid (like getting drunk and then driving home), something that the person being stupid chose to do.

The reason our instincts don't blindly control us is through the process of the growth and maturing of our brains and bodies. A child's brain development at 18 months is simultaneously at it's fastest growth rate, and pitifully limited. A child is incapable of understanding this stuff, not because of discipline, but because of brain development.

The thing you're missing is that freewill and self-control are not the same thing. They are not the same thing. Let that sink in for a bit. Then read it again.

[fiendishchicken]

ZacTB wrote...

What about people like Aria, Nyreen, Joker, Kelly Chambers, Traynor?

I think Aria would Control, Nyreen would Destroy (definitely not Control, possibly Synthesis) and Joker would choose Synthesis. Not sure about the last two, Traynor would probably Destroy due to her anger at the Reapers or something like that.

Aria wouldn't control. She has no interest in ruling the galaxy, too clean and squeaky. She's probably refuse (being insulted that the catalyst thinks itself worthy of the great Aria T'Loak.)

Nyreen would destroy.

Joker would destroy.

Kelly would destroy.

Traynor would destroy.

[KotorEffect3]

ZacTB wrote...

Yeah some people aren't saying certain characters would choose Synthesis just because they don't like it, but I think some squad mates and characters would. I definitely think Joker and EDI would at least, if it were possible for EDI to do it.

Pretty much.  Some people are just saying that characters will pick what they want them to pick instead of thinking about the characters with their personalities, viewpoints, and traits.  Just because they follow Shepard doesn't mean they always agree with Shepard.

[dreman9999]

fiendishchicken wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.You look too much out of extreme cases. What about cased of extreme proverty, dieses, orbrain washing. Like the samalia pirate who take it up to servive , or a person living in a poor area that is force to join a gang?

2.Of coure Discipline dictates hoiw much free will you have. That is the bases of self control. With out discipline you have no self control. This is taught to children.

3.Your still not getting my point. The reason why are insicts don't blindly control us is becauseof self control. We only have this with discipline. Take the time to look at any child with out discipline and you can see how a person can lack self control. Now imagine a person allowed to grow up with put it. That is not a pretty picture.

Discipline,self taught or taught by others, is the key ingediant to self control.This is the bread and butter of any military training.
If free will is 100% about self control then that means Discpline is the key nessiary thing to have self control. 
 Your not getting that everyone can be held by the same standard.

All the people in extreme poverty that I saw in Afghanistan thought the idea of theft was utterly reprehensible. That's no excuse. I assume you mean disease (work on your spelling man). That's a bit grey, but it still doesn't help the case to steal medicine (consider that they are stealing from other people that need it too.) As for brain washing, that's usually against their will. Brain washing can be vague, but usually, it's hardly initiated with the recipient's consent. You rehabilitate them as best you can.

No one is forcing the pirates in Somalia to become pirates. That said, piracy is a capital offense, and a crime against humanity. Economic conditions may regretably lead people to take up that trade, but they earn the result. 

Same with gangs. Just because they are poor is no excuse to join a gang. If they are forced into it against their will against the punishment of death against themselves or their family, that's a bit different. But typically, gangs want their members to be fanatical and loyal to the gang and to the gang only. If the law catches up to them, they get what they deserve. 

I think you need to differentiate freewill and self-control. Discipline is the same as self-control, for the most part.
However, not having self-control does nothing to reduce the capacity for freewill, unless of course due to mental imbalance or impairment. Not being well disciplined is not an excuse for doing something stupid (like getting drunk and then driving home), something that the person being stupid chose to do.

The reason our instincts don't blindly control us is through the process of the growth and maturing of our brains and bodies. A child's brain development at 18 months is simultaneously at it's fastest growth rate, and pitifully limited. A child is incapable of understanding this stuff, not because of discipline, but because of brain development.

The thing you're missing is that freewill and self-control are not the same thing. They are not the same thing. Let that sink in for a bit. Then read it again.

1. That is base on culture. Islamic Afghanistan is not going to have the same perspective as people in other poor areas. Remeber, they are the people who think women are at fault as well for being raped.
2.Starvation is for them to become Piretes. Areyou saying that a person who has a choice between starvation and doing a crime must no matter what shoose to not do the crime in the face of death?

3.With gang's it not just a case of proverty. It's a caseof harrasment. If your stuck in an area with a huge gang influence and your choice was to be beaten and nearly killed for not joining a gang, you would pick not joining the gang?

4.Not have self control and discipline allow for your insticts to control you actions more. That is why disicpline is inherite with free will.It's away for your emtions not to control you. A thing your not getting.

5.You not getting that everyone does not mature the same way. Just because your older does not mean you automaticly mature. Maturing is a consept based in discipline, taught or self applied.

Understand that selfcontrol is the thing stopping your emotions a nd insticts from controling you and cause you to mature.  It'snot automaticly done. YOU HAVE TO LEARN THIS.
Someone who wasin the mility should understand that this is something you have to learn. Any parant understand that self control has to be taught to children. This is not automatic or instictive.

Your issue is that you're trying to paint everyone with the same color brush. People are not like that, they are inheritly different. Ifa person is different their level of free will and self control is different. If the person want more free will, the have to learn discipline.

[Dr_Extrem]

fiendishchicken wrote...

ZacTB wrote...

What about people like Aria, Nyreen, Joker, Kelly Chambers, Traynor?

I think Aria would Control, Nyreen would Destroy (definitely not Control, possibly Synthesis) and Joker would choose Synthesis. Not sure about the last two, Traynor would probably Destroy due to her anger at the Reapers or something like that.

Aria wouldn't control. She has no interest in ruling the galaxy, too clean and squeaky. She's probably refuse (being insulted that the catalyst thinks itself worthy of the great Aria T'Loak.)

Nyreen would destroy.

Joker would destroy.

Kelly would destroy.

Traynor would destroy.

tbh .. i am not that sure about joker. its a 50/50 chance for control/destroy. synthesis would not be an option - the catalyst would not offer hin this option, due to his disability.

joker would destroy the reapers, if edi would agree - imo, she would even persuade him to shoot the tube (synthesis is not available).
on the other hand, he could choose control, to "meld" with the only person left, he really loves. this would be a choice coming from the heart.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 06 janvier 2013 - 09:48 .

[Kabraxal]

Kaidan: Destroy
Ashley: Destroy
Garrus: Destroy
Tali: Destroy

While I think Ashley could refuse the choices as well, it's quite clear all of these would not abandon the mission they've been on suddenly just because some starbrat says so.

Liara: Refuse. I think if she was there, she would start questioning the Crucible and Catalyst's connection. While she might choose destroy still... I personally see her being too suspicious to trust the machine anymore.

Wrex: Refuse... come on, Krogan. He wants to rip each apart with his own hands not trust some stupid machine to steal all his fun

Jacob: Destroy.

Miranda: Refuse or destroy. After ME2 it's quite clear she isn't as trusting over wielding control reliably over things. And it's clear in ME3 she questions using it period as an acceptable solution regardless. And she is very much against forced genetic manipulation. Of all the squaddies, she is the one I imagine most feeling violated and betrayed by Shepard after synthesis. So that leaves destroy or refuse. I can see her going either way... however, like Liara I see her greatly questioning the starbrat and his logic and being pushed away from any choice he is offering in any way.

Mordin: Destroy. He won't choose synthesis.. not after his work with the Genophage.

Jack: Refuse. Really... do you see her doing anything other than her own way? She'd probably shoot the little brat as soon as he showed up just for fun.

Grunt: Refuse... trusts his own hands for destruction first over a machine.

Thane: I don't know.... he would have the most to gain from Synthesis but I don't think he would force that on the galaxy. So probably destroy.

Samara: Destroy... she would do whatever the code commanded and genocide for the greater good seems like something she would do....

Kasumi: I really can't say... she would be most open to any option I think. And she really shows no preference in either game she shows up in other than her not dead
.
Zaeed: Destroy
.James: Destroy.
Javik: Destroy.

No real question... they'd choose Destroy.

EDI: Refuse. She would NOT choose synthesis for certain. The development in the two games she is in really makes that clear. Control... I doubt it. I think her distaste for shackling AI would make that choice too difficult for her. So it's destroy or refuse... and I don't see her condemning all synthetics. She would gladly die herself, but I don't see her condeming the Geth without their consent. So refuse.

[fiendishchicken]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. That is base on culture. Islamic Afghanistan is not going to have the same perspective as people in other poor areas. Remeber, they are the people who think women are at fault as well for being raped.
2.Starvation is for them to become Piretes. Areyou saying that a person who has a choice between starvation and doing a crime must no matter what shoose to not do the crime in the face of death?

3.With gang's it not just a case of proverty. It's a caseof harrasment. If your stuck in an area with a huge gang influence and your choice was to be beaten and nearly killed for not joining a gang, you would pick not joining the gang?

4.Not have self control and discipline allow for your insticts to control you actions more. That is why disicpline is inherite with free will.It's away for your emtions not to control you. A thing your not getting.

5.You not getting that everyone does not mature the same way. Just because your older does not mean you automaticly mature. Maturing is a consept based in discipline, taught or self applied.

Understand that selfcontrol is the thing stopping your emotions a nd insticts from controling you and cause you to mature.  It'snot automaticly done. YOU HAVE TO LEARN THIS.
Someone who wasin the mility should understand that this is something you have to learn. Any parant understand that self control has to be taught to children. This is not automatic or instictive.

Your issue is that you're trying to paint everyone with the same color brush. People are not like that, they are inheritly different. Ifa person is different their level of free will and self control is different. If the person want more free will, the have to learn discipline.

At the risk of my sanity and patience, I'm going to try again. 

1. Buddy, I was a Human Intelligence Collector and Profiler in Afghanistan. I know how the culture there works. I know how similar cultures work. That's the Taliban you're talking about. The hamlets I saw there weren't Muslim. Not by any extent. So don't try to tell me to 'remember' something that I have plenty more knowledge than you ever will.

2. Yeah, I'm going to kill them if they commit piracy. There's not always another way to get resources, but piracy is not an excuse. Besides, do you even do your research on piracy in the Horn of Africa? It's a weapon and drug trafficking whole. The pirates there are taking resources from other Somali's, ones who got their food legitimately. That said, they're threatening the lives of people who have no cause to their issue. Starvation is not an excuse to attack a freighter with the intent to demand resources and power. These pirates are warlords.

3. That's a catch-22. Would said gangmembers who are now safe because they are in a gang use their safety to work with police to bring down the gang? Or would they continue their turf wars and shootouts with police? Go to Los Angeles and check out the MS13 groups there. 

4. That's about as fallacious, both in an argument and in simple biology, as it gets. Instincts do NOT control you. You are referring to a habit. Habits are not instincts. If you think otherwise, take a biology class and a psychology class.

5. This is the best one yet. Seriously, what you wrote for 5 completely renders all your arguments false. What you wrote is a downright lie and is false biology, and there is no way you actually believe what you wrote. If you do, then you need to get an education. Bro, your body is maturing as it gets older. Your brain matures as you get older. Biological growth, physical maturation. There's a reason you can't do peek-a-boo with a 3 year old. He has developed object permanence through the growth of his brain. Just like you can't talk about a hypothetical situation with an 8 year old. He hasn't developed the idea of thinking outside concrete terms since his brain hasn't matured to a point that it can understand this. Maturation: the emergence of personal and behavioral characteristics through growth processes.

If you still don't understand number 5, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive_development

That's not how biology kiddoe. Sorry, you're wrong. 

Discipline: Self-Control =/= Free will or Freedom. 

You need to be taught discipline and control. But that does not mean you have no freedom. They are unrelated. Stop putting them together. Seriously. Stop it.

It doesn't work like that. Look up anything about it. 

No I'm not painting everyone in the same color. However, everyone grows; that is maturation. And the amount of free will for each person IS NOT DIFFERENT

Discipline is different. Freewill is not. Every human has choice. Every human has the capacity to make a choice.

That is not a valid argument on your part. DISIPLINE IS UNRELATED TO CHOICE, FREE WILL, AND FREEDOM

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 06 janvier 2013 - 10:44 .

[clennon8]

I love watching dreman try to act like he knows anything about anything, and then get his ass kicked.

[fiendishchicken]

clennon8 wrote...

I love watching dreman try to act like he knows anything about anything, and then get his ass kicked.

I take it he does this a lot?

[clennon8]

Yes. He is a garrulous dispenser of gobbledygook.

[dreman9999]

fiendishchicken wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. That is base on culture. Islamic Afghanistan is not going to have the same perspective as people in other poor areas. Remeber, they are the people who think women are at fault as well for being raped.
2.Starvation is for them to become Piretes. Areyou saying that a person who has a choice between starvation and doing a crime must no matter what shoose to not do the crime in the face of death?

3.With gang's it not just a case of proverty. It's a caseof harrasment. If your stuck in an area with a huge gang influence and your choice was to be beaten and nearly killed for not joining a gang, you would pick not joining the gang?

4.Not have self control and discipline allow for your insticts to control you actions more. That is why disicpline is inherite with free will.It's away for your emtions not to control you. A thing your not getting.

5.You not getting that everyone does not mature the same way. Just because your older does not mean you automaticly mature. Maturing is a consept based in discipline, taught or self applied.

Understand that selfcontrol is the thing stopping your emotions a nd insticts from controling you and cause you to mature.  It'snot automaticly done. YOU HAVE TO LEARN THIS.
Someone who wasin the mility should understand that this is something you have to learn. Any parant understand that self control has to be taught to children. This is not automatic or instictive.

Your issue is that you're trying to paint everyone with the same color brush. People are not like that, they are inheritly different. Ifa person is different their level of free will and self control is different. If the person want more free will, the have to learn discipline.

At the risk of my sanity and patience, I'm going to try again. 

1. Buddy, I was a Human Intelligence Collector and Profiler in Afghanistan. I know how the culture there works. I know how similar cultures work. That's the Taliban you're talking about. The hamlets I saw there weren't Muslim. Not by any extent. So don't try to tell me to 'remember' something that I have plenty more knowledge than you ever will.

2. Yeah, I'm going to kill them if they commit piracy. There's not always another way to get resources, but piracy is not an excuse. Besides, do you even do your research on piracy in the Horn of Africa? It's a weapon and drug trafficking whole. The pirates there are taking resources from other Somali's, ones who got their food legitimately. That said, they're threatening the lives of people who have no cause to their issue. Starvation is not an excuse to attack a freighter with the intent to demand resources and power. These pirates are warlords.

3. That's a catch-22. Would said gangmembers who are now safe because they are in a gang use their safety to work with police to bring down the gang? Or would they continue their turf wars and shootouts with police? Go to Los Angeles and check out the MS13 groups there. 

4. That's about as fallacious, both in an argument and in simple biology, as it gets. Instincts do NOT control you. You are referring to a habit. Habits are not instincts. If you think otherwise, take a biology class and a psychology class.

5. This is the best one yet. Seriously, what you wrote for 5 completely renders all your arguments false. What you wrote is a downright lie and is false biology, and there is no way you actually believe what you wrote. If you do, then you need to get an education. Bro, your body is maturing as it gets older. Your brain matures as you get older. Biological growth, physical maturation. There's a reason you can't do peek-a-boo with a 3 year old. He has developed object permanence through the growth of his brain. Just like you can't talk about a hypothetical situation with an 8 year old. He hasn't developed the idea of thinking outside concrete terms since his brain hasn't matured to a point that it can understand this. Maturation: the emergence of personal and behavioral characteristics through growth processes.

If you still don't understand number 5, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive_development

That's not how biology kiddoe. Sorry, you're wrong. 

Discipline: Self-Control =/= Free will or Freedom. 

You need to be taught discipline and control. But that does not mean you have no freedom. They are unrelated. Stop putting them together. Seriously. Stop it.

It doesn't work like that. Look up anything about it. 

No I'm not painting everyone in the same color. However, everyone grows; that is maturation. And the amount of free will for each person IS NOT DIFFERENT

Discipline is different. Freewill is not. Every human has choice. Every human has the capacity to make a choice.

That is not a valid argument on your part. DISIPLINE IS UNRELATED TO CHOICE, FREE WILL, AND FREEDOM

1.It you can see that their different culture in Afghanistan then you should take that time to understand that still means all culture still act differntly. You point you made before still is only a point for the afghine people and not a point for every one.

2.You're not understand that fact there is no one in that country that stops these warlord. They  inheritly become the law there. I understand all the ill they cause there but the issue here is that their is no one there that fixed this issue. If peopl who ligitimitly get food alway get there food stolen from the pirate and warlord, and they have no one to turn to to help them or no way to protect themselve, you think they are going to lie and do nothing?
I'm not saying it better for them to becaome pirates, I'm saying the envirment make it harder to live in another way.
You keeps say they can finda better way, but then say their problem is cause by pirate and warlord stealing from them, you missing the fact here that even if they find another way warlord and pirest would steal the food they havve any way? Who protect them from this in the state they live in? You missing the fact here that your looking at them in a state order they don't have.
Go ahead and say there is a better way for them to live if you are willing to go into there country to protect their rights.

3.That depends on the deal they can make or if the police can garranttee safty. So your say the person has to depend on the hospitality of the police for there safty? Having to move their entire family to a witness protection agency to keep them selves safe do to the after effect of there actions?
You really think any one is will to risk themselve and family as a casualty for the polices war on gangs?

4. Now your grasping for straws. I never made a point on habit and I'm not bring that issue up. I'm purely bring up emotion and insticts. And even if we bring habit or schemas into the arguement, that still is a pro to the consept of discipline. That still equal to self control being nessisary, with is still inheritly discipline.

5. Ha, you never met one immature adult in you life? Your not understanding the mental maturity is not inherit with physical maturiry. They are to different things. It's not biological to mental  mature with a persons age. That is just common people skills. Talk to real people and you'll understand this.Many of the most immature people I know are adults. You can't turn on a tv with out seeing one of them.

You not understanding that emotions and insicts have a way in manipulating how a person acts. A person is not born with this self control. It is taught. If that were true we would not have parents, teacher, schools and armies that apply these lesson to indivisuals. You said before the in your army station there was not one soldier you knew who ever lost control. You don't understand the that was drilled into them by a sargent?
You're wrong to think self control is inherite in a person. This has to be taught, not gain automaticly. We a being always fighting with are base insticts and feeling. We have to be taught to control these feeling, we do not auto maticly know how to control them.

Discipline has everything to do with free will and choice. Why? Because it the only way instincts and emotion do not control us.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 janvier 2013 - 11:28 .

[fiendishchicken]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.It you can see that their different culture in Afghanistan then you should take that time to understand that still means all culture still act differntly. You point you made before still is only a point for the afghine people and not a point for every one.

2.You're not understand that fact there is no one in that country that stops these warlord. They  inheritly become the law there. I understand all the ill they cause there but the issue here is that their is no one there that fixed this issue. If peopl who ligitimitly get food alway get there food stolen from the pirate and warlord, and they have no one to turn to to help them or no way to protect themselve, you think they are going to lie and do nothing?
I'm not saying it better for them to becaome pirates, I'm saying the envirment make it harder to live in another way.
You keeps say they can finda better way, but then say their problem is cause by pirate and warlord stealing from them, you missing the fact here that even if they find another way warlord and pirest would steal the food they havve any way? Who protect them from this in the state they live in? You missing the fact here that your looking at them in a state order they don't have.
Go ahead and say there is a better way for them to live if you are willing to go into there country to protect their rights.

3.That depends on the deal they can make or if the police can garranttee safty. So your say the person has to depend on the hospitality of the police for there safty? Having to move their entire family to a witness protection agency to keep them selves safe do to the after effect of there actions?
You really think any one is will to risk themselve and family as a casualty for the polices war on gangs?

4. Now your grasping for straws. I never made a point on habit and I'm not bring that issue up. I'm purely bring up emotion and insticts. And even if we bring habit or schemas into the arguement, that still is a pro to the consept of discipline. That still equal to self control being nessisary, with is still inheritly discipline.

5. Ha, you never met one immature adult in you life? Your not understanding the mental maturity is not inherit with physical maturiry. They are to different things. It's not biological to mental  mature with a persons age. That is just common people skills. Talk to real people and you'll understand this.Many of the most immature people I know are adults. You can't turn on a tv with out seeing one of them.

You not understanding that emotions and insicts have a way in manipulating how a person acts. A person is not born with this self control. It is taught. If that were true we would not have parents, teacher, schools and armies that apply these lesson to indivisuals. You said before the in your army station there was not one soldier you knew who ever lost control. You don't understand the that was drilled into them by a sargent?
You're wrong to think self control is inherite in a person. This has to be taught, not gain automaticly. We a being always fighting with are base insticts and feeling. We have to be taught to control these feeling, we do not auto maticly know how to control them.

Discipline has everything to do with free will and choice. Why? Because it the only way instincts and emotion do not control us.

I've made my point. If you haven't gotten it yet, nothing I can say or show you will prove otherwise. As evidenced by another poster, you pick fights on a regular basis over issues to which you've no purpose, knowledge, or background to seem as if you know something. 

You're still trying to argue. At this point, I'm just going to urge viewers who read your posts to follow up on actual research of said subjects. 

I'm also going to let your comments on my 'ignorance' for the Army which I have served faithfully for the last 6 years slide as well.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 06 janvier 2013 - 11:47 .