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If the Mage Rebellion has a face, what sort of person do you think they should be?


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#1
Dean_the_Young

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Something to get a discussion rolling, for the heck of it.

If the mage rebellion is to have a 'face', whether a nominal leader or leading figure to deal with the protagonist, what sort of person do you think they should be for a better story?


I distinguish the underlined because the sort of person you might want to be the leader of the rebellion might not be the best for a story: either because such a character wouldn't fit well (20th century liberalism and preaching of universal human rights in a socieity which has plenty of empiracle circumstances to suggest not all people are born equal), or because it would easily screw with any attempt at ambiguity, nuance, or moral equivalence between the Mage/Templar factions (if the Mage Leader were terribly reasonable and sincere and sympathetic and all blame fell to those bad unreasonable Templars).


Still, even avoiding setting up a Black/White situation, or a Orisino/Meredith, there could be a lot of different variances of moral imperfection other than 'well-intentioned extremist.' Some of the points that could help shape the virtues and faults of the leaders of either faction would be the sort of compromises that they invoke to further their faction, as well as more modest or subtle flaws. For example, a Mage Leader who knowingly receives aid from hidden Blood Mage cabals, or from the Tevinter Magisters, and continues to accept it as a necessity to protecting the mages, could be tarred by association.


Just to put my own idea out, I think the leader of the Mage Rebellion should be a well-intentioned and far from malevolent leader among the mages... but also a Paternalist, both in terms of their approach to their own forces and to the mundanes. The paternalistic streak is a strong contender for a character trait that can both be a sympathetic virtue and a divisive flaw.

As a virtue, Paternalism emphasizes the benevolent. Authoritarian in a 'for your own good' rather than 'for the better good', Paternalist leaders often seek stronger and more centralized power to advance their ideas, but not necessarily in an oppressive way. Paternalists are often very protective in defending what they consider their own (a good quality for a leader of a mage rebellion seen as being in self-defense), and while a Paternalist leader will enforce their own view over those of the 'children', in this case disagreeing mages and the fearful mundanes, it can at least be mitigated by a benevolent end-goal. A Paternalist Mage Leader would be seeking to protect mages (an excellent sympathy trait for players), and even though they would be seeking to enforce their own views and policies on mundanes it would be coached in what could be very reasonable terms ('they are frightened children who don't know better') rather than in mage-supremacist terms ('they are inferior because they are not like us'). Paternalistic persons often fosters a desire for ideological agreement and conversion rather than eradication of dissidents.

As a flaw, though, Paternalism can easily lead to nepotism, double-standards, arrogance, and active suppression/repression of dissidents and outsiders. Biased towards those in the 'family,' a Paternalist can easily begin to rationalize away flaws of those close to them, even if the same flaws would be unforgivable in someone else: the same sort of viewpoint that forgives a friend for being stressed when they lash out, while a stranger is just an ****, this could lead to a paternalist leader continuing to accept more malevolent or extremist members of the mage rebellion: not agreeing, and even expressing discomfort, but also not trying to stop. A different sort of double-standard also exists for paternalists in the standards for 'parents' versus the 'children': rules, restrictions, and principles that might be applied to the children aren't always held for the reasonable, mature, and implicitly like-minded 'adults': a Paternalist can feel that there are fewer rules to their own conduct and decisions than are held to their subordinates or outsiders, and so see themselves above more mundane laws. These converge into the abuse of the centralization of power and authority and suppressing anyone with the 'wrong' view, which easily turns into 'views that are not mine.' This can be fine when the views are illegitimate (mage extremists, mage supremacists), but far less so when a disagreement is legitimate or even superior to the paternalist's own held views. Internally this could lead to friction within the mage alliance, but externally this could come to be outright enforcement of the paternalist's worldview on others who disagree or would even be harmed by it: not just the Templars, but the lay person who have very real concerns. A 'reform' that benefits the mages to the detriment of mundanes, but is enforced by the 'it's for your own good' morality of a paternalist.


In terms of character interaction, such a Mage Leader would be broadly sympathetic without coming close to being a White Knight. While sympathetic and agreeable to those who sympathize with the mages as the victimized party, the Paternalist would be uninterested or even ambivalent about the perspective of the allies they've chosen, and overall uninterested in a significant compromise that clashes with their preferred outcome. Outlier factions, both good and bad, would justifiably feel ostracized, allowing inter-Mage factional politics, and conditions on the ground of occupied areas could be less than ideal, but most of all despite being mostly sympathetic such a leader could be considered an overall obstacle to a compromise solution, equating 'peace' with 'what I want.'

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 janvier 2013 - 05:49 .


#2
Northern Sun

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Based on Asunder, Fiona will probably be the leader of the rebellion, by virtue of being the former Grand Enchanter of the Circle. I'm not sure she has much of a paternalist streak though. Being an elf combined with a mage likely gives her a not very benevolent view of the common human. Rhys might fit your description better, and he'll at least wield some influence.

#3
MisterJB

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Anyone but Adrian who seems to believe the best way to dispell fear is by flashing fire in the face of mundanes until they shut up.

Actually, scratch that. I hope Adrian is given a position of influence in the mage rebellion. Pro-Templar Inquisitors will find it easier to recruit allies that way.

#4
NoForgiveness

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it should be a mage version of thorin.. maybe anders, if hes not dead that is... "im not proving a point, im changing a world"

#5
King Cousland

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MisterJB wrote...

Anyone but Adrian who seems to believe the best way to dispell fear is by flashing fire in the face of mundanes until they shut up.

Actually, scratch that. I hope Adrian is given a position of influence in the mage rebellion. Pro-Templar Inquisitors will find it easier to recruit allies that way.



#6
MisterJB

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The terrorist abomination who thinks the Chantry has no place in Thedas and insists that mages must police themselves without any assistance from mundanes? Not my first pick.

Seriously, there is a murdering spirit with black and white views of the world's morality living in his head that admits no discussion.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 janvier 2013 - 05:56 .


#7
King Cousland

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MR_PN wrote...

it should be a mage version of thorin.. maybe anders, if hes not dead that is... "im not proving a point, im changing a world"


Anders would be a ghastly leader. Volatile, short-tempered, arrogant and unwilling to negotiate. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 06 janvier 2013 - 05:56 .


#8
Noviere

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As of Asunder, Fiona(formerly the Grand Enchanter of the Circle) seems to be the de facto face of the revolution. She has called for Chantry-Circle separation twice, with the second attempt leading to the current revolution. I didn't really get a full sense of what she is capable of in the book... But I'd say she is definitely an idealist, and a fighter.

Adrian, who played a huge part in starting the revolution, will probably be a big force as well. She is zealot, and a firebrand... who has an explosive temper. A dangerous combination. She's definitely an ends-justify-the-means kinda gal, going so far as to murder someone and then frame her best friend to ensure the the mage/templar tensions explode into fighting. She leads the Libertarian fraternity, I believe.

Rhys is also a factor, and heads the Aequitarians. He seems like the best hope for a peaceful conclusion to the revolution.

#9
NoForgiveness

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King Cousland wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

it should be a mage version of thorin.. maybe anders, if hes not dead that is... "im not proving a point, im changing a world"


Anders would be a ghastly leader. Volatile, short-tempered, arrogant and unwilling to negotiate. 

short tempered doesn't matter, he was right, blowing the chantry worked. he makes himself a symbol of freedom. freedom is the "face" the mages need

#10
MisterJB

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MR_PN wrote...
short tempered doesn't matter, he was right, blowing the chantry worked. he makes himself a symbol of freedom. freedom is the "face" the mages need


Temperance is the face the mages need. Declaring to the world that there is no one you will not kill to see mages free will do nothing but unite all the mundanes in Thedas against your little rebellion.
After the templars broke from the Chantry, there is an opportunity here to turn the public opinion in favor of mages. That is their best hope for lasting social changes and mages like Anders will just ruin it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 janvier 2013 - 06:11 .


#11
Rinshikai10

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MisterJB wrote...

MR_PN wrote...
short tempered doesn't matter, he was right, blowing the chantry worked. he makes himself a symbol of freedom. freedom is the "face" the mages need


Temperance is the face the mages need. Declaring to the world that there is no one you will not kill to see mages free will do nothing but unite all the mundanes in Thedas against your little rebellion.
After the templars broke from the Chantry, there is an opportunity here to turn the public opinion in favor of mages. That is their best hope for lasting social changes and mages like Anders will just ruin it.



This is a great point MisterJB, I agree that this is a chance for them go gain the support of the public.

#12
LinksOcarina

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King Cousland wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

it should be a mage version of thorin.. maybe anders, if hes not dead that is... "im not proving a point, im changing a world"


Anders would be a ghastly leader. Volatile, short-tempered, arrogant and unwilling to negotiate. 


If he is still alive I can see him leading a sort of splinter group, a wild card faction that is that extreme in the end. 

#13
Wolfspawn

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MAGE REBELLION: Somebody insane.
TEMPLARS: Somebody sane.

That way, mages will have a good cause and an insane leader, whereas the templars would have a controversial cause and a sane leader. That way, things wouldn't be so black and white.

#14
NoForgiveness

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MisterJB wrote...

MR_PN wrote...
short tempered doesn't matter, he was right, blowing the chantry worked. he makes himself a symbol of freedom. freedom is the "face" the mages need


Temperance is the face the mages need. Declaring to the world that there is no one you will not kill to see mages free will do nothing but unite all the mundanes in Thedas against your little rebellion.
After the templars broke from the Chantry, there is an opportunity here to turn the public opinion in favor of mages. That is their best hope for lasting social changes and mages like Anders will just ruin it.


showing that they can be trusted wont work. it never worked for mages b4, they stayed imprisoned. anders knew that, the only way is to stand up and declare their freedom and nobody can say otherwise.

Modifié par MR_PN, 06 janvier 2013 - 06:48 .


#15
LobselVith8

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bob_20000 wrote...

MAGE REBELLION: Somebody insane.
TEMPLARS: Somebody sane.

That way, mages will have a good cause and an insane leader, whereas the templars would have a controversial cause and a sane leader. That way, things wouldn't be so black and white.


We already had insane and stupid mage antagonists in Dragon Age II, and it made for an asinine story. Remember Decimus thinking that apostate Hawke and Merrill were templars? Or Grace wanting revenge against the man who helped her escape from the templars? The templar antagonists weren't written any better, however, since they were written to be as one-dimensional as their insane mage counterparts. I don't see any reason to vilify either leader. Why not simply have the leaders of the mage and templar factions be sane individuals who have an ideological difference of opinion about the issue of mages and magic? Flawed leaders in charge of imperfect factions, but with both individuals trying to do what they think is best for Thedas.

Hopefully, TPTB can avoid turning either leader into an insane loon like Orsino and Meredith, since I don't see any purpose behind turning the leaders into ridiculous cartoons who made absolutely no logical sense simply to have our protagonist hack and slash them to death. It would be morally gray to treat the issue as it is - a divide between two sides who genuinely believe the other side is wrong, without either side being a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain of the Week.

#16
King Cousland

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LinksOcarina wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

it should be a mage version of thorin.. maybe anders, if hes not dead that is... "im not proving a point, im changing a world"


Anders would be a ghastly leader. Volatile, short-tempered, arrogant and unwilling to negotiate. 


If he is still alive I can see him leading a sort of splinter group, a wild card faction that is that extreme in the end. 


I can certainly see this. 

#17
Alexander1136

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 Fiona. look her up in the wiki or read the calling and asunder. She is awesome. or maybe Rhys.

Templars: Lambert and the seekers.

chantry: lead by divine but have cassandra and leliana.

cassandra "not all of us desire war" contrasting herself against lambert

Modifié par Alexander1136, 06 janvier 2013 - 06:58 .


#18
Noviere

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MR_PN wrote...

showing that they can be trusted wont work. it never worked for mages
b4, they stayed imprisoned. anders knew that, the only way is to stand
up and declare their freedom and nobody can say otherwise.

This is basically what they did in the novel Asunder. But they did it without blowing up a church full of innocent people. :lol:

#19
DraCZeQQ

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Etta's face, coz she is gorgeous! :)
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#20
Navasha

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They should be an inspiring figure, not a vengeful one. Someone the other mages can look to and feel like they not only can win their freedom, but at the same time the future will be a better place when they do.

They should NOT be a win no matter the cost or price to be paid type of leader. Those kinds of rebellions might make for a bloody battle, but the rebellions are either short-lived or spawn another despicable existence. A rebellion doesn't mean much if only the person holding the whip is changed.

Modifié par Navasha, 06 janvier 2013 - 06:55 .


#21
Potato Cat

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LinksOcarina wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

it should be a mage version of thorin.. maybe anders, if hes not dead that is... "im not proving a point, im changing a world"


Anders would be a ghastly leader. Volatile, short-tempered, arrogant and unwilling to negotiate. 


If he is still alive I can see him leading a sort of splinter group, a wild card faction that is that extreme in the end. 


In the end? Because blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry was was the very definition of moderationism.

#22
NoForgiveness

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Noviere wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

showing that they can be trusted wont work. it never worked for mages
b4, they stayed imprisoned. anders knew that, the only way is to stand
up and declare their freedom and nobody can say otherwise.

This is basically what they did in the novel Asunder. But they did it without blowing up a church full of innocent people. :lol:

haven't read it... im too wary of stuff outside of the game. dawn of the seeker was bad and redemption wss just too.. cheap.

#23
Teddie Sage

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Diplomatic/Kind Hawke, anyone?
Alright, alright, I'll hide in my hole... X___X

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 06 janvier 2013 - 07:05 .


#24
Guest_simfamUP_*

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Not a radical! ANYTHING but a radical. I want someone who can conjure up such strength and power in their beliefs that they can persuade pro-Chantry people to join them. The same goes with the Chantry group too.

So if anything, Evangeline and Rhys should be up in the top. But not that ginger haired lunatic who just... grrr... she's such a nuisance.

Btw, I say 'ginger hair' because I can't remember her name; not because I'm condemning gingers for some reason.

#25
hitenchi

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I am presuming Rhys or it could possibly be Fiona.